Common attitude?

[qeySuS]

Ok i dunno what's up with this, like i told you i admin a Martial Arts community on www.hugi.is a local web, and there are msg boards where everyone can post anything (well within boundries of course) and then there are articles, you send in an article and wait for the admin (me) to approve it, deny it or send it to the msg board as a normal post (i do that if it's too short to be an article).

So here's what i did, this one kid sent in an article and i'll just translate directly what he said:

"Usually in a fight 2 individuals "box" standing, and as soon as someone goes to the ground they stop, although some want to keep it going at that point and kick the defenceless victim in the face. Sometimes a group of individuals attack one guy and even groupfights as well (meaning 2 groups of people).

Personally i like 1on1, people do their best and when it's over it's over.

I really like shootfighting, and i know how effective it can be on the streets (here he's referring to what i mentioned before in another post, my old sifu has Shootfightingc class but it's basicly just grappling, takedowns and submissions and that's what he's talking about) however i've never witnessed a street fight that as a shootfight (grappling match he propably meant but he called it shootfight), that is lying on the ground trying to get some kind of submission/choke, do we icelanders know nothing in shootfighting (again grappling). ?

I was also wondering if anyone had witnissed a shootfight (grappling) on the street? Did the guy just submit (tap) or did he go all the way and break the hand? I suspect that the charges in a case like that could be big :)

I've never seen any good kicks or elbows in a fight before either

ok that's enough for now"

Ok i thought this had some good and valid points, when it comes to streetfighting does anyone really use the kicks they've learned? Those who know jointlocks do you go all the way when doing it in real life? And is it common for people as a whole not to know grappling?

So i accept it and what happens? Not ONE person has anything good to say about it, everyone bit(hes me for letting the article in because it's got nothing to do with martial arts, and people like him are the ones destroying martial arts, he explained he liked to watch fights, but by that he meant watchign UFC/Pride not streetfights, and still people went on, i even broke it down to people like i just did now, brought up the points and asked if anyone didnt want to discuss this, and everyone said

"Martial ats are to protect yourself not to beat up people. Fights downtown have nothing to do with martial arts"

Ok i agree with the first part, but then again the guy never mentioned him going around beating people up, but "Fights downtown have nothing to do with martial arts" how the hell does he figure? Does he figure that the purest form of self defense is in a little dojo with plastic knives and his friends laughing because he punched him accidently? Is this really a common mindset among practicioners? That discussing what would REALLY happen and what you would REALLY do in a streetfight is not considdered Kosher? I'm thinking about writing a small article (since he did come off as kinda enthusiastic but still he never said anything about beating people up), and explaining the importance of the post.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I have a friend who took shotokan who thinks that if you are in a real fight it is wussy to use martial arts. I also have some boxing friends who say a real man doesn't use his legs in a fight, only his hands. Its this kind of thinking that I don't understand.

[Paul]

I think it's important to train as realistically as possible. If you don't learn at your school(or already know), what it's like to really get hit, then you are most likely going to fall to pieces when someone lumps you up in the street and you have that whole adrenaline rush thing going on also.

It's been almost a year since my last fight (I'm getting smarter). I've used things without even thinking about it when the fight is on. I've used kicks and elbows with mixed success. punches and such seem to be the way to go, for me at least.

[Apprentice]

there should be more replies(i think so)...

I personally stick to the hands in a real fight, that and body manipulations, such as a simple headlock(to hold for strikes)...if i were to get into a fight now(its been a couple years), i'd have a different strategy all together(thanx to this forum)...i WOULD use elbows, but not kicks(im not good at em yet)...it all depends on what the situation calls for...if it is a COMPLETE stranger, im using every weapon i have(except kicks)...knees, finger strikes, elbows, punches, chokes, joint locks(and i'd break)...if it is at a party or something, i'd use everything except kicks and fingerstrikes(only need to blind em if they plan on killing or you dont know, nobody would try to kill me at a party, although situations change)...if its a fight for my life, i'll even bite, but if someones jes mad over their girl im not gonna mutulate em(too much):D

I have more friends than enemies(i dont have any enemies) so thats usually good, cuz peepz like me, although theres always someone who dont for some reason(usually not a good one)...

[straight blast]

I've found that if a fight is unavoidable and you have a bit of distance (doesn't happen often, I know :( ) and you want to throw a pre-emptive strike a good full power Thai roundkick to the knee joint or just above is about the only kick I've ever landed. However I must confess that I've seen a good Wing Chun practitioner throw some really good kicks up close, but the whole punching/elbows thing seems to be what works the best.

Mr Nunchaku, I feel sorry for your friend. Why the hell take MA if you believe that it's wussy to use it??? :confused: It makes about as much sense as buying a car so you can walk to work.
Always train realistically, because most real fights are realistic :D

[Yung Apprentice]

I've been in many fights. Many street fights. I used to take TKD for two years and I remember when I got into a fight this one time and tried to use some of it I got my ass royally kicked.(which is why I don't take it anymore, but not to say TKD is no good, it's just the school I went to was Olympic style TKD and didn't teach me much in the way of defending myself) So for a few years up to the the present I basically just brawled with people. I got really good at it too. I always had the same strategy for every fight. If the guy had my same build or bigger, I would strike continuosly at his head with my hands. They most often try to cover up their face and thats when I would knee them in there stomache and then elbow their face. Doing this continuosly and mixing up the pattern. For smaller or quicker people I would either tackle them and then beat the crap out of them on the ground, or try to get in and unleash a couple of head strikes. Well this works good, but I'm getting tired of trading blows with ppl. I can take a hit, but I want to learn self defense so I don't have to take as many.Plus I never had to fight a wrestler or someone who takes ppl down. I'm pretty sure I'll get my ass kicked.

[rogue]

I've used JJ basic throws and controls in street altercations, but no breaks that I know of. I've used kicks several times, the two that stopped a fight were a front snap kick to a guys hand of all places, and a Muay Thai push kick to knock an aggressive drunk on his butt. The last happened in front of some county cops at a huge New Years Eve party, they just dragged the guy off after asking my wife and me if we were all righ, seems he was challenging people to fight.

[No_Know]

"Is this really a common mindset among practicioners? That discussing what would REALLY happen and what you would REALLY do in a streetfight is not considdered Kosher? "

I think that it's more at, they want to seem knowledgeable. They hear the culmination of centuries or a lifetime or years of experience of others, ask what's the answer to this question? (the questions vary) Then tehey repeat what they were told or what they got from what they were told. They seem knowledgeable or sincere because they say things usually understood with the experience to learn them. Some-such, perhaps.

[SevenStar]

"Usually in a fight 2 individuals "box" standing, and as soon as someone goes to the ground they stop, although some want to keep it going at that point and kick the defenceless victim in the face. "

What the he11 kind onf fights do you have in iceland, bud? :) Is that how it is there?

As for the rest of the post though, It sounds like the poster is either a kid or someone with limited experience. Does he really believe that in a fight that ends up on the ground that someone will try to get a submission rather than choke, break or try to get up?

On the topic of using certain strikes in fights, you fight how you train. If you constantly train kicking, then yes, you will kick in a fight. The problem arises with the type of training you receive. If you are training unrealistically, then guess what? you will fight that way. Alot of TKD schools in my area (the ATA schools) are constantly doing the jump spinning kicks, and breaking boards and such. The training methods they use are not suited for self defense, and consequently are giving students that false sense of confidence we are always talking about. The thing is, they don't know until they have to use their skills to defend themselves.

[tsunami surfer]

First off if you are not using everything in your bag of tricks in a real streetfight you are going to get your butt kicked. If you did everything you could to AVOID the fight and are forced to defend yourself or another you have the right to stop the aggressor with whatever it takes. That means using all your training and anything else at your disposal. I once threw a cat at a guy, ended the confrontation on the spot.(long story). You are not a wussy for using MA. You are not a wussy to bite scratch or pull hair. Now for the training part/ Our classes should be used for conditioning our minds, bodies, and reactions to real life encounters. whether the dojo, kwoon or firearms range traing should be as realistic as can SAFELY be accomplished(did I structure this sentance correctly?). Discussing "what ifs" is a good visualization practice but should be kept grounded to reality. We dont wear capes and S's on our chests. If you are training for a sport train hard and develop a good winning attitude. If for self defence then train as close to the edge as you can without injuring yourself,others, or property. My personal opinion is sport training can help save your butt in a violent encounter but self defence training has no place in a game with rules. As we say at my school" If your barefoot and standing on a soft mat there are rules and restraint. If you have shoes on and standing on pavement there are no rules or mercy!" Hope I stayed on track with the thread and didnt get long winded.

[David Jamieson]

once you say something, there it is, held up for all the world to see, interpret and finally to judge on the merit of what was said. that's life.

no matter what you say, because of the fact you "said" it, it is likely that what you have said can be debated as wrong.
so, in the ensuing debate you must persuade to give your point validity. dualism is funny that way, language is funny that way.

anyway, the topic about streetfighting seems like a fair enough topic for a martial arts forum.

and to the best of my many years of experience with martial arts and the schools that propogate them, yes, the paradigm is a little off centre of the true reality of combat.
The environment in many schools encourages a sense of false security and also competitiveness. Both of these can lead to a fat lip quickly on a once around in the real world. :D

Take the flames with a pinch of salt and let the topic grow. The most dificult tools to convince someone of your point is words. now, a sharp sword or a gun? why with those tools you can convince a lot of people into seeing things your way. hahahaha.

peace

[xiong]

A very interesting topic. It sounds like people are having a reaction to this topic as if they think the guy is a troll. Rather than discuss the issues raised they want to dismiss totally what trolls have to say.

I think that many people train martial arts for self improvement and are not all that concerned with actually fighting, perhaps it's denial. They want to discourage people who come to class just to fight, so perhaps they want to discourage it on the forum as well.

I think you should just continue to promote discussion on the topic and encourage people to develop their arguements.

[qeySuS]

Yeah, i'm thinking about doing an article myself on the topic, since i know the kid and although he's been in some scraps he doesnt look out trouble and he's a nice kid, he's 16 btw and maybe he came off as a bit agressive in the article but still he wasnt saying he got drunk and beat people up (and he doesnt).

So i think i'm gonna make a small article later on touching these subjects and well i'll propably make it in a more calm way and raise questions, i'll have to wait a few days though they are still munching my Cung Le vs Shonie Carter (they kept saying that fancy stuff dont work in fights :P )

[qeySuS]

oh yeah i forgot to answer Sevenstar when i said something about Icelandic fighting :) I havent witnissed that many fights since i dont like that much to go clubbing or some sh*t (i like parties with my friends better), but what i have seen people mostly stand and if they fall down, yeah hey either gets kicked or they stand back up, people never get taken down. You forget that Wrestling is almost non-existant here and Judo is the only groundfighting i've ever seen in Iceland. So basicly it's a punching flurry, there was this small gang of asian people that all knew how to kick and punch, they were pretty feared because they knew how to kick ass.

[SevenStar]

dang... I remember years ago, if you went down, your opponent may back off and taunt you while you stand back up. Didn't know that still happened though!

[qeySuS]

well this is iceland :P We'r years behind in evolution, plus weapons are rare, knives at most (guns are banned).