A problem with bagua

[CanadianBadAss]

If you take a bagua guy and wing Chun guy of equal skill and have them fight, the bagua guy would try to circle his opponent and get to his back(correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I’ve experienced). The wing Chun guy would just be pivoting a bit to keep his center line on the bagua guy as he circled him.
The bagua guy would be covering allot more distance and using up more energy, oppose to the wing Chun guy who would just be pivoting slightly. The wingchun guy would also be keeping his regular stance that has fairly good structure(mine does any way), but the bagua guy would be in his circle walking stance which is sort of awkward if the other guy is advancing on you or attacking straight on to your center line, so inside and out changes won't do you much good...
That was my experience anyway when I did some light sparring with a bagua guy, who was about the same level as I'am in wing Chun (10 months). So how do bagua people generally deal with that kind of situation?

[count]

Circle walking is for training!

[beaudacious]

in a real incident ba gua might try to cirlcle tightly once or twice to get the opponent changing there feet(to enter) then use a wide variety of other footwork to gain entry and finish. Not waht you have described

[count]

There is room for circular steps in a fight, but bagua has many kinds of stepping and footwork. There are as many straight lines, triangles, C-steps, etc., etc., as wing chung or any other fighting system. I'll probably take some flak for this, but I hardly think 10 months of training makes a person ready to fight. HeII, they used to stand for longer than that before even learning CMA. Anyway, after some time I have stopped thinking of bagua as a "circle". The real energy is a spiral. But here is a clue. A circle is a continuious line.;)

[Braden]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
...the bagua guy would try to circle his opponent and get to his back(correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I’ve experienced).

You're wrong. ;) Seriously though, your description of how a bagua guy would fight is simply completely incorrect.

[Chris McKinley]

Typically, with only 10 months of training, there is going to be a very big discrepancy between Wing Chun and most other arts since WC is known for having a quick return on investment. The internal arts, on the other hand, are notorious for having the longest learning curve of any of the martial arts. So right away, you have the makings of a lop-sided comparison. However, over time, WC tends to start plateauing just as the internal arts kick into their "power band", so to speak. Eventually, all else being equal, the superior structure, power, and sensitivity of an internal art may provide a significant advantage over a WC fighter. Of course, all else is rarely equal, and that's why the outcome of a given match-up still depends so much on the individual.

All that said, I must strongly second what count and Braden have stated. Namely, that a Bagua fighter will probably NEVER attempt to take your back by circular footwork alone. Anyone who attempts this is reflecting not only rookie ignorance, but a misunderstanding of how Bagua is applied in combat. One of the real strengths of a Bagua fighter is his ability to take his opponent's center/balance from the very first contact. This skill relies on a high degree of sensitivity and absolutely requires contact in order to read the opponent's center and connect to it. Trying to walk around a guy, beside being absurdly slow in a real fight, tends to preclude the kind of contact that makes taking the center possible. A good Bagua fighter can be every bit as direct as a similarly-skilled Xing Yi fighter, going right in and steamrolling the opponent by instantly disrupting his center.

Trying to circle walk in a fight is yet another example of misinformed people trying to use qigong in combat. This is simply the Bagua version of trying to use the Yang Cheng-fu Taijiquan form postures "as is" in a real fight, or trying to use Xing Yi's 12 Animals forms "as is" in a fight. It doesn't work and besides, you end up looking just plain goofy...that is, right before your opponent knocks you out.

[blacktaoist]

A real good BaGuaZhang fighter with not have to utilize the circle walk for a wing chun fighter. I have many friends that are very good at Wing chun and we spar from time to time. I feel that Most times wing chun guys don't like to move, and when they move, they love to advances forward with a straight step with a narrow stance attacking fast with they fists most of the time like a machine gun.

There is no way in hell I'm going to play walk the circle on my opponent if he is attacking forward fast and powerful. But I will utilize K'ou pu (leg locking technique) to neutralize his attack and at the same time keep the wing chun man in my distance.

This is when sensitivity and ability to respond to any given force come in to play. Because real BaguaZhang Fighers are offensive fighters, we utilize footwork to set up offensive techniques that will sooner or later get you. This is way BaGuaZhang practitioners advance on an angle in a single step, a good BaGua fighter can deal with any kind of attack utilizing just only three steps, Shun pu(moving forward) K'ou Pu (toe in) Pai Pu(toe out)

These three footwork techniques can be adjusted and utilize for attacking , retreating, and even change of direction in relation to a opponent's hand or foot techniques.

There are many different fighting configurations in BaguaZhang that can be utilized. Circle walking is just one part of the system, but it is sad that many don't learn the higher level parts of the art. But to tell you the truth, its not the art of BaGuaZhang but the person.

I say this because BaGuaZhang is a Good fighting style. But the comprehension level of the practitioner must be high and he must practice practical, There is no other way.

Peace.:cool:

[dedalus]

Its rare for a question to prompt such great replies. TBT and Chris - this is the stuff that makes coming here worthwhile :D .

[maoshan]

Greeting all
this I had to answer.



Your problem with Ba-Gua is that:

1. you have no martial experiance. As your 10 months experiance depicts.
2. Unless the Ba-Gua practitioner had previous experiance in another system, circle walking around an opponent is most likely what they would do, given the the way Ba-Gua has been depicted, and in some cases being taught.
Ba-Gua is an advanced Martial art which cannot be learned in 10 months, it's just too sophisticated. Only a practitioner proficient in one of the other Internal systems could hope to be able to use Ba-Gua in such a short time.
3. Wing Chun in contrast is simple. It's training methods lead to proficiancy in a shorter time span. But thats the way it is between the external and the internal anyway. it takes longer to learn the Internal.
And the way most train in the internal today, it takes that much longer.

As to your question, it depends on the practitioner and thier specialties.
Ex: A Yin stylist Might match Wing Chun's Center line theroy with the Piercing methods combined with Kao Bu And Ba Bu and a superior bridge to reach the point or a Dragon stylist might go with the force and use wrapping and turning to tie the opponent up. A Ma Stylist might just use point striking to kill Wing Chun's Chain punch.
I could go on, but know this as well, no Ba-Gua fighter will face you with the classical stance at the onset of the confrontation. That's the hallmark of a true beginner.
Your thoughts of Ba-Gua are the reason I began to promote the system as I and the Blacktaoist have. In the early 90's, alot of proficient martial artist thought that's all ba-gua did was walk the circle and try to make you dizzy. What a bunch of crap! This is a complete and practical system. How else could it have been the art of the Royal Guard and the Body Guards of China Even up to modern times.
Communist Mao, For a fact had at least two Practitioners as part of his personal guard, and a far amount of the Red Guard were also practioners.
Judge the practitioner not the style. Inparticular at this stage


Maoshan

[count]

Maoshan,
CHECK YOUR MAIL & MESSAGES!

Just to keep it topical, good post!

[Mr. Nemo]

"If you take a bagua guy and wing Chun guy of equal skill and have them fight, the bagua guy would try to circle his opponent and get to his back(correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I’ve experienced)."

Hmm.....maybe a bagua stylist who's learning from Robert W. Smith books might do that, but that's certainly not the tactics I was taught to use. Bagua has other footwork besides circle walking. I've worn my share of concrete thin practicing triangle steps, straight steps, angling steps, etc...while my sifu counts to ten zillion in chinese.

Bagua does seek to get around the opponent, instead of taking them on straight on, but we are realistic enough to realize that they won't just stand there and let us. Often a little bit of an angle is enough to make the difference.

The evasive footwork is effective for defense too. When I had about four months of bagua under my belt, I got to spar a guy in my building that did American and International rules kickboxing. I couldn't throw him (three months, remember), but he couldn't mount any kind of offense on me, either.

[maoshan]

Yes,
It's the same person.
Sifu Li Is my San Shou Teacher and yes he teaches in NY.
Chen Xiao Ping is my Primary Teacher in Ba-Gua.
Li Tai Liang Teaches the 9 Palace stlye as well as Xing-I.

Peace
Maoshan

[blacktaoist]

Yo, whats up with your telephone? I call and nobody pick up. Unless you give me the wrong new number?

I need to talk to you about Taoism. I want to ask you a few things about Altars and Trans-Formation and Spiritual development.

I was talking to a few of my Chinese friends that study at the taoist temple in china town. They give me some information about Taoism and Rituals. Gate, Door, portal you know what I'm talking about.

I need to talk to you about this, and about light, smoke, scent and drawing on the power of totems and guardians.

Call me soon, because I don't have your new number.

P.S. Good post.

:D

[blacktaoist]

Li Tai Liang Teaches the 9 Palace stlye as well as Xing-I.

Peace
Maoshan

Wu Tang The above reply statement of my older Martial art brother Maoshan, makes no claim of any 9 palace Xing- YI.

What he was saying is Master Li Tai Liang teach nine palaces BaGuaZhang and Shanxi Xing-YI.

Peace.

[maoshan]

Are you new to the internal or what? How could you think that I was reffering to some 9 Palace Xing-I?
My Sifu's Lineage is also Hebei. I've also learned a little Honan.

My Brother corrected you,
but as I looked at what you wrote, it seems that you are trying to infer something. Make it clear, I'm no novice. It's almost an insult.

Maoshan

[wisdom mind]

what are some of the characteristics of 9 palace?

how does is vary from yin fu?

many thanks.

--oh yeah can someone pleeeease answer my iron palm sand to steel question?

[maoshan]

9 Palace Ba-Gua is the pure lineage from Cheng Ting Hua.
It's what he taught in his home village.
One of the things that stand out in the style is that you walk the circle almost in a splite, developing different parts of the legs that other styles don't utilize. Now there's still a difference between what John Bracy teaches from Liu Xing Han and what Sun Si Jun Teaches. I still have more research to do.

Peace
Maoshan

[wisdom mind]

thanks and be safe this "holiday" season

yi wu from da yin fu crew

[Water Dragon]

This is cool, please post more. I was under the impression that the 9 palaces were a training method designed around posts with Taoist influences. I had no idea it was a full style.

[Waidan]

My teacher studies with John Bracy. I haven't seen anything resembling "walking the circle in splits" (though I've only been studying for <2yrs). We do emphasize using the muscles of the inner-thigh to transfer weight while walking, however.

[maoshan]

Peace Water Dragon,

There is a 9 Palace Post training method used in both Yin and Cheng styles,
But Cheng Ting Hua Called his Ba-Gua “ 9 Palace” Style. In this style the theories of the Ba-Gua and I Jing are closely related to all aspects of practice.
Liu Xing Han inherited this branch from Lu Bin.
Now Sun Si Jun Learned Directly from Cheng Yu Sheng and Liu Tzu Yang. Liu was a student of both Cheng Ting Hua and Cheng Tien Hua who was Cheng Yu Sheng’s father. The splits aspect I mentioned before is called “ The Extended Mud Step”.

Glad to be of help
Peace
Maoshan

[baguatc]

Yeah the "extended mud step" is something else to see in action. Check out the pic of Sun Ji Zhun (spelling?) on the cover of the vid at http://www.plumflower.com/new_products.htm (he's the guy in yellow. Scroll down most of the page). A friend of mine has this demonstration video. Sun's gotta be the Original Rubber Band Man the way he steps and twists. But supposedly he really knows how to apply the style. You can see why Cheng Tinghua's style was called "the Dragon form" too . . . all elastic and twining like a dragon.

I saw some demos of stuff Liu Xing Han taught and it seemed like it had a lot of xingyi energy and technique in it--different than Sun Ji Zhun. Just shows how bagua evolves.