There will never be a Mc BJJgrapplingkickboxingnhbdojo.It's impossible.

[chokeyouout2]

There is no speculation in these arts.It's either you do or you don't know how to win.Competition is so enlightening for everybody.It seems to me that in traditional ma's you can run around proclaiming to be the deadliest man alive making historical and psuedo spiritual references to how bad they are.Hell, there's even a guy on this messegeboard showing video clips of him shooting his chi at people.Alot of people buy it.That's great.
To earn respect and self confidence in the ma's I train you must step into the ring,mat,cage or even srteet if forced to.There is no room for well, I would do blahblahblah.If you enter any of these competitions without proper full speed training you could be injured.Anyone who attempts to open a mc whatever better not let any of his students enter into any type of competitions.I wonder how you could convince a wrestler how good he is without ever wrestling himself?Same go's for anything else in life.

Thats my opinion

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Nooooooo, you have to resist, don't fall into the Troll side of the Force!!!
Seriously, some of your points are right, but implying that gong fu never required any testing is stupid...gong fu has been around hundreds of years more than boxing or BJJ, do you think it would have survived if there wasn't any combat efficiency? You think China was such a peaceful place that no convoy needed escorts or no man needed personal protection?
1) Famous fighters were born from pure gong fu, it's a fact. Escort convoys, bodyguards etc...were trained with pure gong fu, nothing else.
2) If you have a gun, do you HAVE to use it to prove yourself or the world that you can shoot? This might sound cheesy to you, but I'm deeply convinced that some people do not care if their art is criticized, but they know they can rely on it when times get rough.
3) Back in the days they trained harder and maybe with a different spirit...for that very reason, gong fu might have worked back in the days better than it does now. Remember: it is a sign of shallow spirit to think that something doesn't work only because you cannot make it work.
After all, self-criticism is much harder than criticizing outside stuffs...

[KnightSabre]

Well said.
It's the same with NHB competitions.In the begginning there were lots of different styles competimg,now there are only a few left.
What does that tell you?

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[ElPietro]

I don't think vasco is putting down CMAs just saying that there are a lot of bogus schools out there...which I think we can all agree on. But he is saying that in kickboxing/grappling there aren't really bogus schools because you'd know after your first competition or after some sparring that what you have learned isn't practicle. In CMAs you could go to classes for years and never throw your heart into a single attack against anything other than a heavy bag.

Heh you don't see guys setting up and practicing iron palm on each other or eye gouges...but in the MMA scene they are using many of the moves full force, even in sparring situations...I have tried both out and right now I am taking Muay thai simply for the good conditioning aspect and I also like the environment of the club I train at...I have a lot of respect for CMA and will likely go back to kungfu eventually...but is learning a deadly move that you will never be able to practice in your life with any real knowledge of whether or not it works really much of a benefit...when the situation comes you will 99% not use it and if you do it will probably be in bad form because you've never applied it before.

Just my thoughts.

[apoweyn]

well, then, the contrast is between schools that test themselves and schools that don't. not between style A and style B.

the longer BJJ and kickboxing are forces in commercial martial arts, the more chance there is that mcdojo versions will pop up. guys that rely more on their lineage than their own performance. or guys that claim victories in countless 'unsanctioned' bouts. or whatever.

the mcdojos that exist today probably don't meet with the approval of the teachers of yesterday. but they have a system that supports them. the point-fighting circuit, for example, ensures that any mcdojo could proudly display a full front window of trophies. is point fighting what a lot of more traditional teachers had in mind? no, probably not.

so the current teachers of BJJ wouldn't approve of anyone that didn't prove themselves. but already, in the past couple of years, BJJ classes have cropped up all over the place. are they all legit? i doubt it.

and as time goes by, more lax tournaments might be conducted, or credentials will simply be fudged. and more commercial schools will come about. as soon as any art shows its viability to draw a crowd, charlatans come along. it's been that way for virtually every art there is, and it'll continue to be that way.

think about it: how many schools have suddenly professed a knowledge of grappling since the UFC began? you don't think that's going to have an effect as time goes by?

i agree that competition provides another layer of protection against charlatans. but people are never more ingenious than when they're misbehaving. there will be mcdojos for these arts. thus it is written...


nostrastumus

[Boulder Student]

It will close soon after.

The McDojo owner that tries to claim a black belt in BJJ without winning numerous competitions as a brown is going to get destroyed. As soon as word gets out he is claiming a black belt, he will be tested repeatedly by every BJJ player in the REGION.

My BJJ school is a good example. You do not advance until you can consistently apply techniques on the next belt up. So, if I want to to get a blue belt, I have to have an effective game that results in the submission of multiple blue belts before I can become a blue belt. The blue belts have to be able to apply their game consistently to Purples, etc. When strangers come in to test the school, Amal Easton, the owner will hand them to a blue belt. I have yet to see anyone handle one of our blues.

The school has been open for three years. In that time, Amal Easton, has promoted 14+ white belts to blue. Amal's blues can go anywhere in the world and represent the rank well. I have trained at Renzo Gracie's school in NY, and I was amazed at the consistency school to school.

Performance determines rank in BJJ.If you claim rank and cannot perform, you will experience numerous embarassing lessons as the BJJ players in the region test the school. Even after three years, folks wander in to test Amal's school. Most of the locals end up as one of his students. The BJJ McDojo will close under the same constant pressure.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[apoweyn]

i hope you're right. i really do. it would be nice to see that sort of resurgence in quality.

but i don't know. today, i'm sure that BJJ is heavily policed. but as it gains in popularity...

my point is that there was no point in the evolution of taekwondo when they said, "you know what, let's go ahead and give these things away." it happened over time. talented and competition-proven black belts realized that they could turn over more of a profit if they just let joe shmo test for the next belt up, where the fees really start to accumulate. and so on.

so while that instructor may have trained under strenuous requirements, perhaps his students do not. and then, gradually, they become teachers. and they have a different standard still. yes the taekwondo community could have spoken up and said, "well sabumnim john doe isn't turning out the quality of students we'd like. so don't take him as a representative of our style." but the general public doesn't know.

i've seen it happen with filipino martial arts too. when they started to catch on, suddenly neighborhood schools had FMA certifications up on the wall. but they were certifications of completion of seminars and the like. but new students don't know that. as far as they're concerned, they're learning eskrima from a legitimate teacher.

is the legitimate eskrima community unhappy about it? i'd imagine so, yes. but can they police it completely? no, i don't think so.

i think that BJJ is going to have the same problem. i don't think that local people going around to test these new instructors is really going to happen. not on a widespread basis.

but like i said, i really hope i'm wrong. perhaps i'm just being cynical. i do think that competition gives an extra safety catch that some other styles don't have. i just don't trust that it'll be enough. not in the long run.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

You are exactly correct, but so is Boulder.

You are right in that many McDojo's are teaching "grappling," or "some BJJ." These schools though, don't show up at competitions, and if they did, would get murdered.

A school that had a McBlackbelt (would you like some fries and a gi with that?) in BJJ, as per that one link from yesterday, would quickly get found out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Let's say I own a Kempo School and I look at BJJ and say "hmmm, neat stuff." I go learn some things, and incorporate it into my training so I teach "some BJJ."

If somebody learns that from the Kempo school, receives their belt in that school, and then tries to open a school that heavily advertises BJJ, he and his students are going to get murdered by every BJJ school in the area, and eventually blacklisted. I know it won't necessarily keep the idiots from going there and claiming BJJ, but that's a LOT of idiots to perpetuate the myth, in the face of so much evidence! :) And I've found that most people when "shown the light," so to speak, see it for what it is.

I mean, one of the first things people who are looking for a BJJ school might ask, if they do some research, is "How'd we do at the Pan-Am's or Mundials?" Plus, most who get interested in BJJ get interested because they see it in the UFC or some such... so the schools tend to attract guys who like to be active and bang around. We get a lot of seals and marines and law enforcement.

I do believe that there is a chance that BJJ might get McDojo'd, but I think the chance is reduced by all the competitions. The continuing influx from Brazil always helps too.

And I agree that it's the difference between "competing (in a live active sense), and non-competing schools," not style vs. style.

[Shaolindynasty]

There is one in our area. It's not doing that well but it is still open. The teacher has 1 fight under his belt in kickboxing. He is teaching Kickboxing and BJJ. Also there are alot of kickboxing Mcdojos around. Check out your local Cardio Kickboxing class, there are probally tons of people in there thinking they are a total bad ass. Also with so many "world championships" out there it is hard to know who is good and who isn't, unless you have a celebraty in your area. To think BJJ is heavily policed in all areas is a mistake, nobody can watch everything. Everybody tries to come up with a "grappling" program, wouldn't most of these be considered Mcdojos?


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[KC Elbows]

So what you're saying is that competition saves a style from mcdojo. I'm sure all the TKD people are breathing a sigh of relief right now.

[Merryprankster]

Kickboxing has been McDojo'd for years.

Teaching some BJJ is different than claiming a Black Belt and opening a BJJ focused school.

[Merryprankster]

The quality of TKD is going to drastically improve with advent of its olympic rules.

There will be some holes in their game, just like boxers, but the rules involve very real contanct, not love taps.

That's the difference we're talking about.

Grappling has an edge over striking in this regard in that full speed sparring doesn't mean that I am trying to knock my opponent senseless.

[JWTAYLOR]

I have an easy answer to this.

There are MANY schools in Austin teaching BJJ. But there is only ONE that I can find (actually just north of Austin) that has any formal BJJ training. That one is taught by a Machado Brown Belt. I have spoken with Carlos Machado and he vouches for the guy's credibility as he was a direct student. He knew of no other qualified BJJ teachers in Austin.

Yet there are allot of schools advertising it. How do they get away with it? Because there are no major BJJ tournaments anywhere around. And when there are smaller tournaments, the frauds certainly don't let their students know about them. Just becuase there is a Dallas or Houston tournament doesn't mean that people 200 miles away know anything about it.

There ARE BJJ McDojos right now.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[KC Elbows]

Merryprankster,
I understand that that sort of valid competition is what you're talking about, but that does not change the fact that there are millions of TKD mcdojos. There will be bjj mcdojos, mcdojos for any popular MA. As long as there are low quality people there will be low quality MA. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

[old jong]

This tread feels like listening over and over to the same old Barry Manolow song!...You get the idea? :rolleyes:

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Shaolindynasty]

yeah pretty much. This is the "land of the free" so anybody can open a MA school and to be completely honest thee is nothing anybody can do. I could open a BJJ school legally even though I have no experience in the art. People do it all the time how do you think Kungfu Mckwoons started. back in the 70's kungfu got way popular and some people decided to cash in on it even if their knowledge low to nothing. This spread through generations, then you have good instructors who have to "water down" their teachings to suit the average person in order to stay open. MA business is hard, and running a "real" school makes it even harder. Ask us, we have been in the park district for 5 years with under 15 students at all times most of the time we only have 3. The average person thinks why should I bust my ass here and get all banged up sparring when I could go to the local Tang soo do Mcdojo and get a blackbelt in 2 years. Bjj Kickboxing and whatever else, if you've heard of it has a Mcdojo somewhere.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[apoweyn]

well, in addition to training in martial arts, i do write the songs that make the young girls cry.


stuart b.

[Boulder Student]

Old Jong,
Why do you insist on trolling constantly? Lack of creativity? Your drowning in your own negativity; give it a break.

JWT,
These schools actually put BJJ in their ads, etc? We have several students in Boulder that run their own schools. The blue belts are authorized to teach on limited basis at their predominantly standup schools. Many of these guys bring their best students down to train in Boulder. They teach BJJ, but on a very a limited and controlled basis. Could any of these McDojos be something more benign like that?

I am surprised they continue to get away with it if they are teaching BSJJ(BS jui jitsu).

I know we would want to visit their school to roll with some of their guys if they were doing the same thing in Denver Metro.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[jimmy23]

Shaolin dynasty hits a home run here.

I know of a MMA mcDojo not too far from where I live. How does it stay in business? Because most people dont want to do the type of training that a successful fighter will. If you have to get students in to pay the bills youll cater to the average and water down your demands.

For example, at our school, during the summer, its not uncommon for us to turn the air conditioning off and roll. The other school (as i will refer to it here) NEVER does this


We start students off the first day learning the gaurd and rolling, so they start to get a feel for it . The other school doesnt even teach the gaurd until youve achieved a certain belt rank.


We push students ( I hate that word, students, more like training partners) to their limit. When I first got active here the main trainer would scream his lungs out at me as I gassed, pushing me ****her than I thought I could go. Most people wont put up with this. One very hot day I had to literally crawl off the mat, and the guy I had been sparring kicked me in the butt and told me to "Get off my dam mat." I got so mad that I pushed myself harder next time, and it helped me get better.

A student can move into hard stand up sparring very quick in our school, but he needs to be in shape first and hed better be ready to push it, as , once again, we dont put up with technicques thrown without power and intention (even during timing drills) and we dont let you stop until youve done some good work.

A student who isnt there to train will find themselves ignored more and more. There are professionals working out the gym, and a group of amatuers that are very active, and we just dont have time for anyone who isnt self motivated.

Is this harsh? yes! And its why we attract serious students and run off those who arent serious . These are MARTIAL arts we're learning, and while one must be smart in training(avoiding burnout and injuries) one must also have regular , hard, trying workouts.

THeres a lot of people that want to say they train MMA but dont want to go through the difficult break in period to get in shape, or tolerate sparring with those who are a lot better and getting tapped repeatedly, or doing stand up and getting schooled over and over.

THis is why MMA dojos will have a niche market.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Olethros]

"It's the same with NHB competitions.In the begginning there were lots of different styles competimg,now there are only a few left.
What does that tell you?"

All the testosterone laden brutes came in and muscled everyone around, making it a brawl instead of a fight?
Sorry, trolling aside now.
Everyone is always talking about the street-effectiveness of NHB, but is a cage or a ring really the equivalent of the real-life scenario?

[Jaguar Wong]

Oletrhos,
I don't think you'll hear any serious MMA professionals claiming that the ring is the same as the street, but their training will most likely prepare them better for "the street" than any weekend warrior ever will be, regardless of how many "self defense" drills they practice. The mental preparation is very important in real world self defense, and the truth is that most professional fighters (especially Mixed Martial artists) are better equipped to perform under great stress, fear, and just plain exhaustion than most of us weekend warriors are.

As for the McGyms, as everyone here is saying, the BJJ community is a small one, and there just aren't enough people involved to go around and shut all the fake schools down. That would require way too much research, travel, and "cleaning" time, and not enough training time. The McGyms won't be dominating the tournaments, because their students will be learning "Real self defense BJJ", not the "competition stuff". There are always people out there that buy this stuff. They don't want to compete, and they don't want to work hard, but they want to study something that'll make them tough. How are they supposed to compare it to other BJJ schools, when they're too busy learning some watered down commercialized version of it?

It happens, but at least they won't be the big name schools, because of the competion element. Same thing happens in pretty much any martial art. I know of a couple weak Muay Thai schools here in Vegas. I thought the competition would weed them out, but you know what...They're growing!

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[jimmy23]

Jaguar Wong is correct!


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[yin lion]

three really but I don't see why all the rednecks like to mount another guy. This fighting I saw would be compleatly none effective against more than one player. Also for all that know CMA's went to japan, but missing some stuff (of importance). Then they (japan's arts) were taken to creat BJJ and other tripple copyed arts.

Also to those that think UFC has only BJJ + JJ fighters I just wanted to say that what I've seen was only monkey style done from the ground I think they must have copyed (taking moves from)monkey or another style that did. I think that you grapplers would never stand a chance you think that you would get someone to the ground mount them like you would your girlfriend and punch them in the face. News flash I will kick you in the balls or break your knee then if you do get me to the ground poke you in the eyes and I not talking gently I will remove an eye if thats what it takes to get you'r gay ass off me.

So now that I've ****ed all the BJJ guys off; go screw your girlfriend then at least cross train so you can fight back while standing up. Humans walk on two legs and if you think you'll do better on hands and knees then blow me...you could from your fighting stance.

Sorry I went off I just can't stand everyone thinking humans (that spend most of there time standing) would fight better on there hands and knees. I call it common sense but it's none too common with BJJ players. All I need to say to what ever you that are angry after reading this is challenge two untrained people to fight you at the same time you don't stand a chance (and there untrained) your "art" or photo copy of one WILL NOT WORK IN THE STREETS. You think life is like a movie and every one will line up single file and fight you fairly one at a time. Think you are human whats the most natural way to move? How do you get from point A to point B you walk. :eek:

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

[jimmy23]

lol @ Yin Lion!

You must not be watching too much of the UFC if you dont see all the stand up thats being used. Thats ok, as your kind will never get too far past dancing and throwing technicques in the air, while feeling content that youd murder someone in the street.

And yes, I have fought multiple opponents for real, more than once in my bouncing days, so I guess I feel pretty confident in my ability to judge whats most likely to be street effective.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[JWTAYLOR]

Boulder Student, yep, I see signs for one of them with a phone number that says "Boxing and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu". I've called the number, but I get no answer. If I see one of the signs at lunch I'll post the number here.

I don't have any problem with a school that teaches BJJ as a small part of their training. Hell, our school kind of does that. We have a black belt from our school that is also purple under Carlson and he comes in and shows us some stuff and we spend a class each week or so just working that stuff he showed us until we see him again. That's ok with me.

It's the guys that teach it as an intergral part of their "art" and have no more credentials than I do (seminars and tapes and too much unsupervised rolling) getting money off of the GJJ name. But I guess that happens with all of the martial arts eventually.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[toddbringewatt]

Ralek might start one.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[Chris McKinley]

...(hauls out tired old answer to the either/or argument)...

No human being can guarantee in a real fight that it will definitely remain standing nor that it will definitely go to the ground. Therefore, a complete fighter will want to be prepared for any eventuality.

As for McDojos in BJJ/MMA...yes, it is not only possible, it is likely. In fact, the higher the profile and the tougher the training, the faster an art is likely to be "McDojo'd". Let's look at why. If an art is high profile, i.e., it wins lots of public tournaments, it draws much greater attention from the masses. Especially the teen male demographic. This means that there is an increase in demand for the product.

If an art includes extremely rigorous and tough training, it will tend to have a much smaller number of practitioners. This happens when people get "weeded out" by the training intensity. Therefore, we have a decrease in demand for the product.

So far, it would seem that these two factors would tend to balance each other out. On the one hand, people see a high-profile art and initially are drawn to it. On the other hand, the rigor of the training discourages just as many people, and so the art would soon find a balance between them.

Now...enter opportunism. A potential snake oil salesman gets himself enough training to begin teaching with credibility, then begins to cater to a broader market by making the training much easier to obtain, thereby capitalizing on the initial great demand for the art. The masses, seeing a chance to study the art they've seen work so well, only without all the back-breaking hard work, flock to this guy in droves. And since the overall legitimate community is still so small, he can operate in a relatively low-profile, all the while raking in the dough.

Now if this scenario is repeated a few times, it won't be long before this particular art suffers the same fate as every other effective form of fighting that has ever rolled down the pike. Eventually, you end up with a few very good schools and lots of really crappy ones. The cheap knock-offs simply become too numerous for the art to effectively police itself. Ah, well...c'est la guerre.

[shinwa]

They will be tested by various BJHJ stylist? What are they gonna do walk into the guys school and kick his ass? This is america jack. We have laws lol.

Of course there are BJJ Mcdojos. The teacher can earn a legitamte black belt and promote people as simple as that. Pay the dosh, pay for your uniform (tax write off for the school btw), pay for your belt, pay for your instructorship and there you go. You "learned" from a qualified instructor. Doesn't take a phony instructor to make a MCdojo, just a lax one.

[jimmy23]

Chris McKinley is correct


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Merryprankster]

I guess I just haven't seen it in my area yet.

I still think the centralized regulatory body and major competition formats will help keep it high-quality... I guess you can liken it to boxing. There are a lot of chumps out there in a lot of chump gyms. On the other hand, if you're serious, the major competitions (golden gloves, etc) will be your goal and you'll train to that.

Again though, I never said it WON'T happen. I said it will be harder. There is a MUCH greater McDojo syndrome problem in CMA, Karate, FMA, etc, than there is in Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Boxing, etc.

Nice point about all it takes is low quality people to have low quality MA's...

[KC Elbows]

I agree merry(on the regulations making it harder to make mcdojos).

Unfortunately for us kung fu guys, we'll probably never get rid of mckwoons until gladiatorial combat makes a comeback. I can just see it now:

"For those about die in midair while attempting a tornado kick, we salute you!"

[apoweyn]

i agree. the constant emphasis that competition places on 'testing conclusions' helps to keep the art from becoming too commercialized.

but there is always going to be a part of the population that would prefer to enjoy the benefits of a style without ever really testing themselves. and if there's a market, someone will come along to pander to it.

hype + general populace = opportunity = mcdojo

the thing to remember, i think, is that the above has nothing to do with real BJJ, any more than it's reflective of real gung fu, taekwondo, or any other art. as long as there are real practitioners out there, then there's hope. and i agree wholeheartedly that the competition format does mean more real practitioners.

the trick is in educating the general populace.

once again, i'd prefer to be wrong. and with any luck, i am.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

I agree. I think televised matches help. I think the general public is mostly aware, even if only vaguely, that there is this thing out there where people fight and it has no rules, and if you want to, you can see it on TV. (I know it has rules. Remember: general public)

UFC recently posted ads in Sports Illustrated, so that's a large audience.

I like "testing conclusions," it sounds so much better than "getting an asswhooping because your techniques didn't work :)"

[Kung Lek]

vasco see's dead horse and once again beats it.

much like Don Quixote battling windmills, vasco refuse to believe in anything beyond the length of his arm.

kickboxing and bjj and jj schools all over the place are mcdojos.

you roll with the others in the school. just like anywhere else you spar with your mates and fellows.

doesn't matter what any of us think or say, the proof of your skill is in the crystalline moment of combat.

the ring is not a realistic "street" place and any training done in teh confines of a framework of ring rules will offer minimal skill improvement when faced with a live combat situation on the street.

get with the times vasco, overall traditional Kung Fu training is superior to the limited scope of ring tournament stuff.
ring tournament stuff has it's own value, but mastering an art is where it's at for the true martial artist.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i am correct.

where's my beer?

[Xebsball]

Just a side coment...

I see some of you say BJJ is a small comunity, i highly disagree with that, at least in my country. Bjj is by far the most popular martial art, there as schools everywhere.

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Xebsball]

And its also the one with the worst reputation.

There was a fight a few weaks ago in a party, martial artists were involved. Guess their martial art...

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Merryprankster]

Ummm, ok Kung Lek. Whatever you say.

I disagree with the idea that sport training only "minimally improves" skill for the street.

I disagree that traditional Kung Fu training is superior to ring training. It's different perhaps, but not necessarily superior.

And lastly, before this accidentally turns into an MMA vs Kung Fu thread, I believe that Kung Fu, TKD, Karate, Capoeira; almost any established martial art has the potential to be excellent in an altercation. How you train what you train in makes all the difference.

[apoweyn]

amen.

stuart b.

p.s. 'testing conclusions' is better for my ego than 'receiving an arse whooping.'

:)

[Shaolindynasty]

"Bjj is by far the most popular martial art, there as schools everywhere"

Are you counting Capoeria? Because when I was in Brazil I saw far more of that than anything else. Also my Sifu and his son are from from Brazil and they say that there is more Capoeria to.

BJJ may be a highly effective art but to be honest it is easier to roll than spar with strikes of any stand up style. Well maybe not easier but less painful less bruses etc. Wait, I mean you can just tap in BJJ. Uhhh You guys get my point but I am sure this will get twisted.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[KC Elbows]

Shaolin Dynasty is evil and wrong for saying those terrible things!! Bad Shaolin Dynasty! :D

[Water Dragon]

Everyone knows there is no room for competition in CMA

http://www.changshuaichiao.com/images/Current%20Events/Chung%20Ho%20Trnmt/0501Trnmt6.JPG

http://www.politicalliberalism.com/uploader/image/138.gif

[Merryprankster]

I understand what you are saying Shaolin Dynasty:

Grappling has the advantage from a strictly training perspective because I can train FULL SPEED without injuring myself or my partner. I'm never left wondering if I might have hurt them or not. I can go full blast up until I have a submission locked in, and once we all know I'm IN, I can apply the submission gently without fear of dislocating joints.

[Chris McKinley]

Merryprankster makes a very valid point about it being how you train what you train. This leaves open the possibility that one day someone might say they train MMA and you might actually have to ask them, "which arts?". The current stereotype of Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ may gradually branch out as people rediscover that there are other approaches to fighting which, when trained realistically, can be just as useable, sometimes moreso. It's a natural process: the Boxing/MT/BJJ combo becomes the standard and flourishes. Eventually, the law of averages kicks in and there are a lot of cookie cutter MMA stylists of roughly the same caliber. As people start to look for an edge over the competition, they explore other possibilities in training, perhaps even taking another look at certain traditional arts they once despised.

It CAN happen. Remember, just a few short years ago, the term "kickboxing" was a negative stereotype for generic ineffective tournament fluff, as in, "he's ONLY a kickboxer, he has no real skill."

[Shaolindynasty]

Oh yeah forgot to mention that my Sifu's son said there were full contact Kungfu tournamnets in his city all the time. I even saw a flyer for one when I was there. Also Shuai Jiao is big there to. I think that country just has more interest in martial sports period. Higher level of competition breeds better competitors. Like I said before though if you have heard of it there is a Mcdojo for it. Hell there are even "watered down" army bootcamp workouts for people now.

Chris makes a good point, I actually beleive San Shou is probally better in MMA than Muay Thai


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Boulder Student]

Shinwa,

You can walk into any legit BJJ school and roll. You introduce yourself. "I study with X, may I join your class today?"

The teacher will say, "Sure, todays vale tudo, $10 for a class and here is our release."

You say "Excellent."

The cost will range from $0 to $50.

Kung Lek,

Try this on for size:

The Paradox of Randori from BJJ Theory and Practice by Renzo and Royler Gracie:

"The practice of removing the dangerous elements of a martial art so students can train harder might strike the reader as strange. After all, wouldn't a martial art be more deadly and effective if students were taught and practiced the really dangerous, painful moves such as those used in classical jui-jitsu(or kung fu)? Does it not weaken a martial art to remove such techniques? Herein lies the true innovative genius of Jigoro Kano. Counterintuitive as it might seem, Kano saw that a martial art can be made more effective by the removal of "dangerous" elements so that students can train at full power on resisting opponents with the techniques that remain.........There is something paradoxical about the idea of a martial art being made more combat effective by the removal of dangerous techniques. Kano saw that a fighter who constantly trained at full power on a resisting opponent in live combat with "safe" techniques would be more combat effective than a fighter who always trained with "deadly" techniques on a cooperating partner with no power. We should note immediately that "safe" technique does not mean "ineffective." The "safe" techniques that Kano retained were"safe" only in the sense that they can be used safely in live training so long as students agree to stop when they have been successfully applied. In a street fight they could be used to snap a man's elbow or strangle him until unconscious."

Deadly techniques Kung Lek? I'll take a rear naked choke over a strike to ST9 any day. Both will have the same effect(unconsciousness or death)using the same target. One works everytime and is easy to control(hold for 5 seconds and he is out, hold it for 30 seconds plus and they probably won't wake up), the other is like trying to hit two marbles on a moving bit of string.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[Shaolindynasty]

Good post! That actually sounds reasonable to me. Personally I believe the whole "deadly technique" thing got blow out of perportins in Kungfu. Most schools don't try to teach you how to "stick your fingers in someones eyes and rip them out" That is nonsense. What a non Mckwoon type CMA will stress building speed, power and percision in basic movements this means stikes, kicks, throws and joint locks. To be completely honest alot of CMA schools aren't good at fighting because most schools are Mckwoons. Back to the purpose of my reply though.....Good Post!


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Budokan]

"it's impossible to have a mcdojo in BJJgrapplingetc..."

What an idiotic statement, and completely indefensible. That's the typical head-up-the-a$$ rhetoric I expect from Rolls, not someone else.

K. Mark Hoover

[Boulder Student]

Actually, a number of folks have offered cogent arguments to support vasco de gama's assertion. Folks have also offered cogent arguments for why it has/will happen. Interesting thread in my opinion

Why do you troll? To catch fish?

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[chokeyouout2]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> doesn't matter what any of us think or say, the proof of your skill is in the crystalline moment of combat.

[/quote]

You summarized my point.Then you spewed on about some complete art bs.Because of the nature of these sports particularly bjj,you cannot proclaim to be good without proving it.

How's this.You don't know your ship is COMPLETEly WATERPROOF UNTIL YOU HAVE DROPPED IT IN THE WATER.So, I have a question Kung Lek, have you been dropped in the water or are you shooting chi ballz at people?

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[This message was edited by vasco de gama on 11-09-01 at 12:26 PM.]

[chokeyouout2]

The only way I see a BJJ school operating under a phony teacher is when they don't compete outside of their school.The students can compete amongst themselves I guess, but they would have to never show up at a tournament.But the day their "best" student steps onto a mat ring or cage reality will become apparent like it has for alot of tcma's.This isn't a troll thread nor am I a troll.This isn't a my wonton is superior thread either.I have just stated some constants about the ma's I choose to practice.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Kung Lek]

Provocation will get you nowhere :D

Why do people want to put words in my mouth?

I said what I said and I meant what I said.

Take a look at your argument Vasco. Now, think about what you said to me. Then think about it some more.

Perhaps it will click

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[chokeyouout2]

KUNHLEK,

Your point was?Mine is this;in the aforementioned arts,i.e. bjj,wrestling,muthai, one can only conclude that a technique is usefull ONLY after they have attempted it in mutual combat.

I have no clue to what you do in your school.You could be kung fu fighting all day long .Yipeeee!The only hole im my argument is where you were supposed to insert your answer to my question.You failed to do so making this exchange of ideas non existant.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Merryprankster]

I think San shou/Shiau Chiao or however it's spelled this week is the next logical step. Muay Thai will continue to be studied for knees, elbows and roundkicks, but the striking and throwing integration of San Shou is going to become more refined as the sport becomes bigger.

I wish they had San Shou around here.

[apoweyn]

vasco,

i think you've brough up an important point. i just don't think it's as simple as all that.

"You don't know your ship is COMPLETELY WATERPROOF UNTIL YOU HAVE DROPPED IT IN THE WATER"

amen. but regrettably, that doesn't stop people from selling un-seaworthy ships to people who don't know any better. and that, my friend, is the essence of a mcdojo.


stuart b.

[BeiKongHui]

Well, what about McSeminars. I know for an absolute fact that Royce Gracie has handed out blue belts to people who weren't ready for them because they dropped a sh*tload of change for the seminar. Where are all the bjj players that should be taking him to task for this?

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Kung Lek]

well, it didn't really seem like you were "asking " a question to me. It seemed more like you were just "telling" me/us what you think about martial arts.
It is silly to think that Kung Fu has not been tested. Laughable really. Life ain't a movie after all vasco, nor is it a tv show.

which is fine.

your approach applies to the other side of the coin also.
You are condescending to the tcma practitioners in most of your threads. I guess it's just a personal peeve of yours.

That's ok for you not to like em. It's not like anyone will teach you them anyway.
Keep on rolling!

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Ryu]

The main points I see here are.

A false BJJ BLACKBELT will inevitably have to prove his skill to others in his field. If he has the skills of a white belt, he will not last to "teach" as a blackbelt. This I'm sure happens with all arts.
There is nothing wrong with not liking the tournament scene. I don't, and I'm never afraid to say that. It's simply because I'm too deadly. ;) No, haha seriously I don't like all the travel, preparation, lights, crowds, etc. It's the same reason I don't go to big parties, etc. I've never been that type of personality. Now I've still rolled full contact with tournament practitioners, competitors, etc. And I've done so on numerous occasions (and I'll continue to do so to get realistic experience to test how I'm progressing, etc.) I've done quite well for myself. The one thing I frown upon, (but I don't think anyone is really saying this)
is that you have to be a tournament, NHB fighter to be considered a "grappler". That I don't believe.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Kung Lek]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The one thing I frown upon, (but I don't think anyone is really saying this)
is that you have to be a tournament, NHB fighter to be considered a "grappler".[/quote]

uh, Ryu, that is exactly what is said here on this forum day after day and hour after hour. There are very few like yourself who still manage to keep an open mind to all that martial arts and it's many manifestations has to offer a student or practitioner.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[chokeyouout2]

I disagree.You aren't a grappler until you have tested yourself.Everytime you roll with someone you are in a "tournament", and i use the term loosely.But the fact remains you constantly test yourself while training in these arts.You cannot refer to someone as a focus mit hitter or a heavy bag puncher or a good shadow boxer and the same time say they are a good stroker or grappler.There is no room for assumption.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[JWTAYLOR]

I've rolled with lots of people, testing my skills against people much better than myself. But, especially watching me roll, you would find it difficult to call me a grappler.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Ryu]

Of course not, Vasco,
In my post I said time and time again that you have to roll and test yourself. If you consider that a "tournament" then I've been in hundreds.
You can't just not spar or "compete" with someone else who's trying to beat you and say "well I can do it."
Obviously you have to roll and spar. That's what it's about.

but you don't have to go to big tournaments to be a "real grappler!" LOL, that's just silly rhetoric.

I know great bowlers and pool players who have never been in tourneys but still compete with others, and practice, etc. Their scores and skills are just as good as the league bowlers.

Formal tournaments is what I'm talking about.

Not about rolling hard, and competing with people.


Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[omegapoint]

Everyone gave their honest interpretation as to what fighting and a legit school is. This isn't a new problen though and many "Masters" of traditional styles have addressed this problem. In the 1880s in a letter to his friend Ryosei Kuwae, Sokon Matsumura, who many consider to be the Godfather of KaraTe, spoke about these same dilemmas. Called "Matsumra Bucho Ikko" it gives Matsumura's "take" on the warrior's art of strategy, and how one should practice the arts:

"You should be aware of the meaning of Bujutsu (Warrior's Science); so I am writing this letter. Please read carefully and understand.

Bun (knowledge) and Bu (warrior's art) have the same theory. Both entail 3 main points. Bun's are calligraphy, admonition and Confucianism. The first is the knowledge of language; the fluent use of written words and the knowledge of a large vocabulary.

Admonition the second attribute, is to ultimately understand your spirituality and the lessons of Buddhism. Teach others but study constantly on your own...

Confucianism is to know this philosophy deeply and to understand the meaning of life; make the mind pure and true. Govern the family well, and this will keep the world peaceful in the end.

The three most important aspects of Budo (Warrior's Way/Art)are Bujutsu of Intelligence, Bujutsu of Nominals (names or insignificant ideas) and the Bujutsu of Budo.

Bujutsu of Intelligence is understanding that styles may vary, but a style is only as good as the practitioner and as good as you practice it. The desire to be superb or excel is rare. For instance many styles have exaggerated movements like dances; these do not work for real battle...these dances are similar to those of common women.

Bujutsu of Nominals is a lot of ideas without true execution and a lot of talk about competition and winning. At times this unnecessarily hurts other people or your own body. It is bad for the reputation of the "arts", and breeds false confidence. It eventually will give shame to your parents and brothers.

Bujutsu of Budo is the pure concentration with many unique ideas. You must deal with your mind well and wait for others to fall apart mentally. Win the battle by the calmness of your own mind and steal the mind of your opponent. Acting mature gives incentive to others and has no irritations. In the area of loyalty have the power of a tiger and the speed of a swift, which should come about from natural practice. A master of Budo should STAY AWAY from violence, deal with people well, be sure in their accomplishments, keep peace with the people and prosper through honesty. These are are the 7 virtues of Bu. Since Bu and Bun are basically the same as I mentioned, we do not need Bujutsu of Nominals or Bujutsu of Intelligence. Enrich the Bujutsu of Budo, adapt to change, and keep practicing with this note in mind."

Writing frankly at this occasion,
5/3 Sokon Matsumura to Brother Kuwae

So which do you practice or train in? I know that what I do has helped me for real. I also know that dilution is just a matter of time. There is and always be legitmacy and illegitimacy in everything. Because many Germans supported Fascism doesn't mean that all WWII era Germans were believers in this illegitmate philosophy. Still it was quite popular and its ideals almost conquered the world!

What works for you is all that matters, but sometimes what "works" and for what scenario,is individual. In other words until you can look at reality objectively from various angles you may be fooling yourself as to what "truth" is. Later and sorry so lengthy...

[Ryu]

I saved that to my desktop. :)
Thanks.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[rogue]

We already have McKickboxing and McBoxing. I've seen a form of judo done purely as physical and zen excercise, so let's say that generaly grappling isn't immune. As BJJ grows here in the states so will the number of instructors, not all will be champs or even have competed or even be brown or black belts. I've been to schools where BJJ was taught by blue belts, so maybe this is starting to happen already.

There will never be a McMindBoxing school.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[GinSueDog]

I think a lot of people from the outside that look into BJJ do not realize the huge difference there is between a new white belt and a seasoned blue belt or what it takes to become a blue belt. All they see is someone one step above white belt.-ED

"Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them." --The Tick

[rogue]

I agree about the blue belts Ed, but what happens if said blue belt does OK with his school? He attends a few seminars and promotes himself up to purple, this way he can promote his better students to blue. And so on.

I don't really believe this has happened yet, but it could happen if BJJ becomes popular enough.

"All they see is someone one step above white belt."
And that may be when you see some impatient Gracie wannabe escalate his rank to get more students.

Signed,
Soke Rogue, Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Jujitsu Kempo Karate Do. (We are not affiliated with Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Jujitsu Kempo Karate Concepts, or Wan King Fist Kung Fu)

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[This message was edited by rogue on 11-09-01 at 06:33 PM.]

[Xebsball]

Shaolindinasty,

Yes capoeira is very popular now too, i guess capoeira and bjj are the most popular ones.

There are a lot of kuoshu/sanshou/shuai jiao tournaments every year all over the country if you are willing to travel and can aford to join the competitions.

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[BAI HE]

Responding to the original post
(a day late and a buck short)

Are not most MMA's just a "Happy Meal" of most ma's? Offering the best of all and a free toy to boot. There is probably no such thing as "Traditional arts" anyway. Everything, especialy CMA is MMA.

I say MMA because there is no such thing as NHB, never has been , never will be.

[jimmy23]

"the ring is not a realistic "street" place and any training done in teh confines of a framework of ring rules will offer minimal skill improvement when faced with a live combat situation on the street"

I have no idea how you come to this conclusion, my experience has been the opposite.

Excellent thread here. I would like to clarify one thing though, and that is that MMA today is far beyond bjj. At our school our ground work draws from bjj, judo, vale tudo and sambo. Our stand up from muay thai, boxing, and western wrestling. In a very real way, a new martial art is emerging , based as much on principles as technicques. Not every MMA school is like this, but Ive seen enough to know that there are many that are.

Oddly enough, in some schools an orthodoxy is also emerging, one where things are done a certain way because Joe Blow did it that way. Ive seen bjj stylists completely disregard the leg and hip locks of sambo because it "wasnt bjj". To my way of seeing things, this is the same as the "traditional mess" that Bruce Lee railed against.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Reima Kostaja]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You cannot refer to someone as a focus mit hitter or a heavy bag puncher or a good shadow boxer and the same time say they are a good stroker or grappler.There is no room for assumption. [/quote]
:eek:
uhhuhuhuh...he said STROKER...uhhuhuhuhuh
:D
pardon my lame reply in this otherwise great thread. :p

[Merryprankster]

Thanks for that unenlightening response Bai He.

It's all CMA huh? Ok, fine. It was an Indian that taught the monks the original movements right?

So it's all IMA.

Or wait, Alexander the Great made it into India, and we know how warlike he was. Maybe it's all Greek?

Or the greeks had contact with the Persians... maybe THEY started all this...

Or what about the Egyptians?

Your claim is unsupportable.

[rogue]

I'd never say mma are a "happy meal" of martial arts. While they may use techniques from other styles they've also become masters at blending the mix into something usable.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[fightfan]

The only thing ANY martial art can do for you is provide you with tools. Its up to the individual to use them or not.

[ATENG]

Merryprankster...

I think you misunderstood Bai He's post...

I believe he said that MMA (he used a happy meal analogy) is the gleaming of the best techniques and principles from various arts...so in a sense...CMAs were formed in the same way. Hence...CMA is MMA (his conclusion)....NOT MMA is CMA (i think what you assumed him to be saying)

"It's all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then it's just fun."

[Merryprankster]

ATENG,

Nope, I didn't misunderstand it. I misread it completely. I thought it said "everything, especially MMA, is CMA. Not the otherway round.

Bai He, a thousand apologies. Please don't hold it against me.

Word to the wise folks, don't post when you are tired and hungry!!!

[SevenStar]

"I agree about the blue belts Ed, but what happens if said blue belt does OK with his school? He attends a few seminars and promotes himself up to purple, this way he can promote his better students to blue. And so on."

this has happened. There is a guy in my area who was promoted to purple last month by royce. He has had several fighters in the ufc, dnagerzone and other nhb events. Two of his fighters are chris condo (dunno if he still fights, he lost in some early ufcs) and david ferguson. There are several others also. I think quinton jackson trained with him too.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[jimmy23]

seven, is that David Fergusson out of memphis, Tennesse? I know that guy! He beat one of my training partners (Dave Benefield) at the War Zone event (I was a judge at that one ) in a submission only match. Fergusson is a very good fighter, excellent ground game ,and I saw him fight in Hatteisburg MS also. Nice guy, great fighter.

A few of the guys at my gym said it was bad idea idea for Dave to fight Fergusson, he has a heck of reputation down here, guys I respect say hes real good.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[GinSueDog]

SevenStar,
Sounds like he earned that purple if he is producing some pretty good guys. There is a guy where I train that got his purple a little after a year training there. He rolled twice a day, seven days a week, and competes in everything from submission tournaments and MMA events including King of the Cage and Gladiator Challange. If someone has the skills now I don't see why they should have to wait a few extra years for that belt.-ED

"Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them." --The Tick

[SevenStar]

Agreed, GSD.

Jimmy, yeah, that's probably him. I don't know him, but I do know his BJJ coach, he's the guy I referred to in a different thread when I was talking about cross training in bjj. He knows his stuff, so hopefully I can get there soon.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[jimmy23]

seven theres another event (might not be called the War Zone) on January 12th down here. If you can make it to memphis, Im sure those guys will have a few fighters down here. If you can, let me know, Id like to meet you in real life, and invite you to our club to roll and spar. This is cool, we know someone in common!


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[SevenStar]

There is a McMMA school here also. they teach a traditional MMA, called sho nin kwan do, which is a mix of ninjutsu, shotokan and TKD. He used to send his students to our school, and they would go back to his school and teach what they saw. consequently, he said that he knew kung fu also. The jerks even had the gall to open a school RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO OURS. When visitors left, they would chade behind them and give them pamphlets from their school. He talked a lot of noise about beating my sifu really badly, so my sifu challenged him - he didn't accept.

There was also a guy who taught what's commonly thought of as MMA - BJJ/sub grappling and muay thai - who taught in that school. They never badmouthed us, but they went into a local mma event talking alot of crap about how they would dominate everyone...All of them lost.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[SevenStar]

If I can make it to memphis? I live in memphis. Where will this be?

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[jimmy23]

my bad I had the impression that you lived on the west coast.

It will be in BIloxi, Mississippi, on January 12. I know Fergusson will have a few of his guys down to fight (grady Hurley for sure), maybe you could hook up with them for a ride . IT salso not a bad area dowon here for a short get away - casinos, beaches, loose women, everything a man could want!

I didnt realize you were that close to me, my bad.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[rogue]

Don't get me wrong about the blue belt example, the guy I was learning from was a blue belt under Pedro Saure(sp?), and that was after training under a PS white belt back in the old days. I think eventually you will have people escalating their BJJ rank, or just dropping out, coming up with a name under the MMA banner and making themselves a black belt. What could drive this will be if MMA and BJJ become popular among the relative masses as tkd, kickboxing, jkd, even wing chun have, and the demand for instructors. Of course the general public will want to progress to black belt faster than traditional BJJ and will not want to train as hard as a real MMA fighter, and there will be someone willing to acamodate them.

The only hope is that BJJ and MMA don't catch fire with the general public.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society. (We are not affiliated with Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Jujitsu Kempo Karate Concepts, or Wan King Fist Kung Fu)

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban

[I]
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum

[SevenStar]

Jimmy, did you say you live in Biloxi or paradise?

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[jimmy23]

lol, paradise to some, I think


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist