Are you confident you can defend yourself?

[Novox77]

One of the most tossed around questions from many people in many martial arts styles is: "When will I feel confident that I can defend myself?"

It's a very legitimate question, since many people train martial arts to gain a sense of security when they are out in the world. Unfortunately it seems that, for many people, this confidence never comes, even after many years of dedicated training in a martial art they believed was supposed to be very effective.

I started this thread in response to something Iblis73 mentioned repeatedly in his posts: that he has done WT for 3 years, trained very hard, and yet, he feels he cannot rely on his training in a real combat situation. He goes on to say that his lack of confidence is due to the lack of realistic training in the classroom.

Iblis has a point. Many great masters of martial arts are creamed out in the street simply because the street is very different than the dojo. There are no rules. There's no guarantee there will be a fair fight. No one will stop the fight when a fighter is hurt. Multiple people could attack one person, etc. Also, there is no way to simulate the intense adrenaline rush during an actual confrontation and how your body will react in such a rush.

Part of your martial arts training must include lessons on the psychology of the fight. By learning what provokes a fight, and how the body reacts to the provocation, one can be more prepared (and therefore more confident) for the fight. For example: during the adrenaline rush, your peripheral vision is greatly inhibited. This is because your body has a built-in instinct to devote all of your visual sense to the object in which harm may be inflicted. This makes you susceptible to attacks that come from your left or right simply because you can't see them coming.

One would conclude that even if actual fighting emotions cannot be simulated in training, one should keep training as realistic as possible by learning how to defend strong and fast attacks. Yet, for us Wingchun practitioners, our goal is to give way and use the opponent's force. How can we begin to be "soft" if we were always subject to very strong attacks? In my experience with wingchun, the people who trained the most "realistically" were the most stiff in their wingchun technique.

It is this dilemma that causes Iblis and many many others in wingchun to wonder if they can REALLY defend themselves, even after many years of training. I am curious to know how confident people are in their wingchun skills when applied in a real combat situation. And for those who don't feel confident, how much more training do you think you need until you are confident. If you feel you'll never have the confidence, perhaps it's time for a new style?

[fmann]

There is no way to train true fear management in a school environment. However, multiple attackers and random attacker type exercises are as close as you can get to simulate the experience.

There's a saying, when fear kicks in, fine motor skills are lost and your technical skill (e.g., accuracy, softness, fluidity of movement) is halved. Basically, people tighten up, get stiff, lose a little coordination, etc.. So if you've trained extremely well, this hit won't be as big.

And that's just about all you can do, unless you get yourself in to brawls all the time.

[Novox77]

Adding realism to a classroom may help you gain some confidence, but what do you say to the smaller, weaker students, who don't seem to be able to defend against the more realistic attacks? As wing chun is meant to be effective for all persons regardless of size or strength, "realistic" training is not the cure-all solution for gaining confidence in the street. Granted, at some point, you need to experience real-time attacks, but for the majority of beginning wingchun practitioners, the goal is to learn how to borrow the opponent's force. As the students get better, then speed and power can be thrown in GRADUALLY to finetune their reflexes. These decisions are made by the sifu, and any good sifu will know that if the students are NEVER exposed to a realistic attack, they cannot be truly prepared for the real thing. The fact that many wingchun sifu's don't emphasize fast and strong attacks may be because the student's foundation of wing chun has not been established, not because they don't think realism is important.

So the question becomes: how good do you have to be with your wingchun until realistic training is suitable for you? Once you are able to defend against realistic attacks, will you then have the confidence to defend yourself on the street?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Novox77
If you feel you'll never have the confidence, perhaps it's time for a new style?

I don't think the style is the problem.

[black and blue]

I make a point of training and sparring with as many different people as I can.

I single out the biggest people in the class, arrange to meet with them out of class, and positively 'demand' they spar with me. :D

These guys are far larger than me (I'm 5'10" - slim build). Confidence comes from putting yourself under the hardest conditions available.

A few of us have discussed the nature of the beast that is MAs. At some point, if you really want to test yourself and your ability to use your WC, you have to put yourself in a real situation.

Walk into a dodgy pub... swear... bump someone's beer arm... wait for the first punch to fly. ;) In truth, a training environment can never prepare you for a naked fist landing hard. Dealing with the fear of that fist seems to be one of the biggest problems.

I'm confident with the WC I've learnt... I 'believe' I could use if I needed to... am I ready to 'test' it?

Errr... it's my New Year's resolution:D :D :D

Prison... Here I come!

[Novox77]

black&blue said:

"Walk into a dodgy pub... swear... bump someone's beer arm... wait for the first punch to fly. In truth, a training environment can never prepare you for a naked fist landing hard. Dealing with the fear of that fist seems to be one of the biggest problems. "


I have often thought about picking fights just so I can get a chance to test out my skills :) It seems to me that this type of behavior goes totally against martial arts ethics. Has anyone out there actually done this? For me, I find I just can't initiate a confrontation, since I'm training to defend exactly this type of behavior.

[yuanfen]

Initiating things in dodgy pubs? C"mon that's teenage stuff
and get someone in jail, the hospital, the poorhouse or by chance in a funeral home. S... happens. Plus- there is such a thing as ethics...though the book shelf on that can be dusty.

[black and blue]

N77 - This is the conudrum of the MA world. Learn to fight, but don't fight - learn to do damage, but only use for self defence.

WSL was involved in challenge fights.
Yip Man was involved in challenge fights.
Hey... even Bruce Lee (smirk) was involved in challenge fights.

These fights had nothing to do with self defence, and everything to do with testing fighting skills when they needed to be tested.

Walking the Walk. My Sifu has entered JJ tournaments and won in his weight category. When I asked him about the grappling techniques he used on the ground, he told me he used Wing Chun principles and found his Chi Sau training to be invaluable.

However much the high-minded may complain, the only way to 'know' if you can use it... is to use it. And even this leaves questions unanswered. Winning once doesn't mean winning every time.

I'm yet to walk into a pub with the intention of getting into a fight. Having seen how messed up people can get from just one good punch, it's scary stuff.

But if you want to know... you've got to get stuck in. This is the only way.

People are sure to post nonsense about "I don't need to prove anything" - all I can say is -
"Does this mean you're better than Yip Man or WSL - at fighting and from a moral perspective?"

[Novox77]

black and blue:

I think the likelihood of me being challenged to fight is even more unlikely to happen than me getting confronted by a drunkard in a bar. Sure GGM Yip or any other HIGH PROFILE, HIGHLY SKILLED (or claim to be) martial artist would be the target of a challenge. But I am (as well as most of us here) a low profile practitioner of wingchun, and no one would think of challenging me except for those drunken bar idiots :) . For those of us in MA for self-defense, we really don't have anything to prove, even if we were challenged. The exception of this is if I became a grandmaster, at which point, I better already have all the confidence in the world that I can trust my skills. And if anyone has the dedication to reach grandmaster status, MA is no longer about self defense for them.

Your reference to your Sifu testing out his skills at a JJ tourney is a good way to see how you stand with your skills. This seems like an event that can stir up an adrenaline rush, and test out your skills in a safe way. Your point is well taken that you must walk the walk to gain the confidence. Even if you're only in it for the self-defense aspect, you gotta get your hands dirty every once in a while to gain the confidence.

[red5angel]

I dont think you have to go out and 'find' real experience, I think for the average person, and a good martial artist, sparring is enough. It also seems to go against the ethics of what we do. From what I understand, as we mature in our martial arts we learn to use the best tactic of all, avoidance.

[tiger_1]

my friend im have confidence in my wing chun 100% , realy in world wing chun dnt have many serios competition and opponent style of kung fu, derivates or some karate or westling is just cildren game for w.c. for street fighter dnt nide to talking im mean; but im thinks here have one crestion :are wing chun im anuf vs more opponents in same time hmmm im dnt know for that cose we here dnt have long power punch so.... - just my opinion tiger_1 (wingchun texnic of fight give opportunity for allmoust non nature big speed for wingchunger that is fact so must work hard here im mean ; that and strong chi sao is most strong weapons in hands of wingchunger);)

[Jeff Liboiron]

I'm not good enough to take on a highly skilled MA, i know that, i'd get my ass handed to me. Also i've only been training for like 6 months

However, i have been in a fight against 4 average joes, and beat 2 of them down, and the other guys got scared i guess and took off.

I don't like fighting, and will never go looking for a fight

[Novox77]

With 4 years of WT, I feel very confident against the average joe, unless the average joe is 7 ft and 300+ lbs. Although for the most part I'm not uncomfortable with bigger and stronger guys (my training partner is a big firefighter), there's a point where psychologically, I wouldn't want to mess with a very big guy. As I get better, hopefully my fear for insanely large people will go away.

This is true for advanced martial artists of any style. If they've been training hard at their respective styles for a very long time, they're bound to be very fast and clean with their technique. But again, I believe I'm heading down the right path. For when I become the advanced martial artist with a nice 15+ yrs of WT behind me, the efficiency of the style will kick in, and I'll have very little qualms about going against advanced MA or really big people.

Hopefully, when I'm that far down the road, the martial art won't be about how confident I can take on other people... But while I'm young, and the testosterone is flowing strong, I'll enjoy my current sentiments :D

[CanadianBadAss]

I was confident that i could defend myself befor i started trainning wing chun.
Besides, the school i go to is very traditional, you can come in when ever you want and leave when ever you want theres no real set class time. Basically when you come in you practice SLT and forms and spend the rest time rollinghands or sticky hands. They teach the "art" of wing chun, no drills for reality training or dealing with fear. But if your going to **** your pants when some one attacks you, i don't think any kind of fear training you learn at a dojo is going to help you.

[relax]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
I was confident that i could defend myself befor i started trainning wing chun.
Besides, the school i go to is very traditional, you can come in when ever you want and leave when ever you want theres no real set class time. Basically when you come in you practice SLT and forms and spend the rest time rollinghands or sticky hands. They teach the "art" of wing chun, no drills for reality training or dealing with fear. But if your going to **** your pants when some one attacks you, i don't think any kind of fear training you learn at a dojo is going to help you.

What do you mean by very traditional? Traditional (old school) schools have sparing/fights everyday. If you just practice sticky hands all day, you are missing out a lot.

Sparing is a big big part of kung fu training, because you have to be beaten down everyday to get rid of the fear of getting beaten down.

Once you have no fear, you go all out :)

[CanadianBadAss]

Well... Its not just sticky hands, we spend alot of time trying to use proper body mechaniques(and forword energy) for each movment from the form to devolop "wing chun" power. Once you learn the power you can aply it to any movment...
I gues I said traditional beacuase that was the way my teacher was taught by tst in hong kong.
But I bought some gloves about a month ago and I'm starting to spar at the school now, right now it's still pretty light contact, but there's a couple of guys there willing to go full contact, so once i get a bit better at wing chun we'll go ufc rules.

[straight blast]

I am horribly uncomfortable with my Wing Chun skills. Seeing as I've only done one official lesson, this is to be expected. In two year's time I'm sure that I'll have a very different response. I believe that my experience in Muay Thai should be able to look after me until the WC becomes second nature.
One thing that I did get from Muay Thai is a sense of overcoming fear. I'd often s**t myself going to MT. I'd always get stuck with the biggest baddest fighters as sparring partners and for a while I got my a** kicked on a regular basis. I'd get stomach cramps, dizzy and generally s**t scared every time I drove to training. But I pushed through it, and now everytime someone gives me crap I size them up and think "No way do you scare me after the freaks I've sparred". Every time I sparred it was reality training for me. I was scared, adrenaline pumping. If I messed up, I got floored. It took me ages, and a lot of pain, but it was so worth it. I don't begrudge a minute of it.
Towards the end before I had to stop training I used to do everything I could to spar the big guys...still scary, but at least I learned a lot every time I sparrred. :D

[sanchezero]

I don't agree that frequent sparring is necessary to become a good fighter. Of course, this is what I have learned from my 'traditional' ving tsun education.

We don't spar in my school and we only occasionally do 'practical' applications. I think we place alot of trust in the way the system develops our skills for fighting with the two-man drills (chi sao, etc), the forms and lots of punching/kicking conditioning.

We are taught that sparring builds bad habits if done to excess and that its benefits do not offset them. That being said, we are encouraged to get together occasionally with other MAs and 'fight'. Not to play tag but to pound and take a pounding if necessary. I have had very positive experiences with this method - I have also found that I am not at all disadvantaged when I work out with guys who spar regularly, as most of them do.

:D

[Shadowboxer]

Black and blue: You should challenge someone instead of "picking a fight" in a bar.

Before I started in WC, I went to a MMA club at the college I was attending with only 2.5 yrs. of a soft style of Aikido. The main instructors were TKD guys, blaclkbelts and bigger and stronger than me. There was also a boxer there. We all sparred each other. It was my first real sparring experience. I got hit but the boxer did not pick me apart and the TKD guys did not either. I had very little attacking skills from my Aikido training, if any. And even when we went to the ground as a part of the grappling curriculum, it was even. No one gained the upperhand or a submission hold unless we were learning one.
Now, that I've been learning WC for about 2 years, I feel even more confident that I can handle myself. We do combat drills in class. I've only been rolling arms for 4 or 5 months. Usually, we do a triangle each class-1 empty hand attacker and 1 with a rubber knife taking turns attacking. For now, this is as close as I can get to the real thing. I do notice that my adrenaline does get flowing, so I get to practice dealing with it. One of my brothers likes to sneak around on you while you are dealing with the other guy, so I get to train the peripheral vision factor as well. When we reach a certain level(2nd green at our school), which means our footwork is good enough,among other things, Sifu will arrange fights for us to test our skills with other styles and schools. He also teaches 7*, so we get to touch hands with the bugs anytime they are around.

[KenWingJitsu]

"I don't agree that frequent sparring is necessary to become a good fighter. Of course, this is what I have learned from my 'traditional' ving tsun education.

We don't spar in my school and we only occasionally do 'practical' applications. "

Might I suggest a moist towellete?? LOL. Inside joke. Seriously, you need to change schools. Period. If you think you can fight without sparring or scenario training or even sparring training,...you are in for a world of hurt in the real world. this is the single biggest problem with wing chun today it's usually a waste of time. You learn techniques & learn them and learn them, but never learn HOW to use them. Do yourself a fovor and grab 2 or 3 of your classmates and meet them after class and spar "match" style and "surprise street attack" style. you'll be sooooooo glad you did.

[Tae Li]

I dont know much about wing chun but I train in Taekwondo..I reckon you should give this martial art ago, because it is one of the closest forms you can get to actually being able to defend yourself out on the street.

Sure...Taekwondo gets bragged alot because of its simplicity, but it is its simplictic form that makes it so effective. On the street your going to be so nervous in a brawl that no wing chun technique is going to work out perfectly...one reverse hook kick in taekwondo to knock someone out is all you need.

You want confidence? all you have to do is spar alot of different people alot of the time.

I wouldnt say that i have all the confidence in the world to defend myself...I mean im a 19 year old girl who still relies on instinct and her legs to help her run, but still i think im sort of prepared for the outside world.

I force the guys (of all sizes and age) to spar me in my club so that i can gain that extra confidence, and now they BEG to spar me because they know that i can go just as hard on them and that i can hack the pain.

I dont know...maybe you just need to understand how to control your fear before you can actually have any confidence..I dont know.;)

[S.Teebas]

On the street your going to be so nervous in a brawl that no wing chun technique is going to work out perfectly

Thats why we spend thousands of hours on chi-sau, to train us to react instictivly without thought.


S.Teebas

[Former castleva]

To pick fights is anti-kung-fu.
Bruce did not feel any need to prove himself (do challenge fights) as he got older.

[old jong]

I was able and did defend myself before I even had any MA training.I consider my wing chun skills as additives to my natural capacities and do not feel limited or restricted by them. Anyway, nobody is sure to win at 100% with any style or system.Just be agressive and USE what works best for you.

[sanchezero]

"Might I suggest a moist towellete?? LOL. Inside joke. Seriously, you need to change schools. Period. If you think you can fight without sparring or scenario training or even sparring training,...you are in for a world of hurt in the real world. "

Did you read all of my post?

"...we are encouraged to get together occasionally with other MAs and 'fight'. Not to play tag but to pound and take a pounding if necessary. I have had very positive experiences with this method - I have also found that I am not at all disadvantaged when I work out with guys who spar regularly, as most of them do. "

I do get together with other guys and kick it around. I don't wanna call it sparring, b/c it's certainly more hardcore than sparring that I've seen elsewhere, but...