Is trapping effective in the street?

[IronFist]

The martial art video reviews (http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/why.htm) writers seem to think that trapping isn't really effective in the street. I think they said something like "if trapping range even exists at all in a street fight, it would only be for a fraction of a second..." etc. that trapping isn't that useful.

What do you think? Any personal experience?

Iron

[PaleDragon]

is only meant to be useful for a fraction of a second...most traps i believe you can take a step out of easily...their not meant to be sustained.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Yeah, you don't trap just to tell your opponent that it's no nice to attack peeps, you trap to get a clean shot, temporarilly disable the opponent and move his mind on his trapped limb.
Trapping range doesn't exist? Funny, then punching range doesn't either? To my knowledge, they are one and the same range.

[curtis]

I am realy sorry to hear, That.There are so many people out there, that should know better!
These people realy dont understand what trapping is all about.

I would like to ask them.

What does stealing ones base mean to you?

To trap is to off balance or otherwise limit the opponents ability to hit you, meanwhile allowing you to strike them.(IS that so hard to understand?)

Basicly Trapping can be done in one of two ways,
Physically (lop soa, fook soa as well as the OLD PRESS TRAP,come to mind, but there are many other ways as well.)
Or Mentally, is another way to take the opponent off balance. This can be done by threatening or any other means that makes the opponent respond to you.
No matter how the opponent responds, if he reacts to you, (unless you are fighting a highly skilled counter fighter.) he will loose his initiative, thus losing his base. And even a skilled fighter (such as of boxer) can be handled easily if you can cause him to lose his base.
So you ask whats the big deal?
If you do not have a base, you cannot fight, no matter how big or small you are. (Think of the base as your balance,.) If you do not have your base you cannot generate power, you cannot gain balance, or move effectively. In other words you are HELPLESS.
That is the hole idea of TRAPPING.
And that ,bearly touches the surface.
Trapping is an art!
TOUCH,FEEL,AND RESPOND. not this slappy trappy notion that most people belive.
Ive gota run.
I hope ... Well thats an other day!
C.A.G.

[yuanfen]

"Trapping Range" as a term is a mis
leading corruption often used by JKD
folks.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Everyone!

I have found trapping to be very effective in street situations! The problem that most people have is that they either don't have enough training to make trapping work for them, or they try to force the trap! Trapping is a biproduct of hitting! The primary goal of the JKD fighter is hitting, hitting and more hitting! You should never try to trap. It should happen naturally if the line that you are attacking is closed off. Trapping is for removing or going around obstructions. There is no need to trap if there is no obstruction!

The work that goes into the development of good trapping hand skill is something that most martial artists aren't willing to go through. This is unfortunate, as trapping offers much for the person who puts in the training time to make it functional. In order to have great trapping skills, several elements must be present.

(1) Energy/Sensitivity Training - This gives you the sensitivity to detect energy flow and know which trap is appropriate for a certain situation. Every offensive and defensive movement in combat has a certain type of energy, as well as a directional flow for that energy.

(2) Reference Point Trapping Drills - These drills teach you the actual mechanics of the trapping movements, simple as well as compound. They also help to condition you for contact, and prepare you for all possible contact points.

(3) Mook Jong Training - The mook jong helps to toughen the hands, wrists and forearms for contact. It helps you to develop extremely economical structure with your trapping movements. It puts power into your trapping.

You must combine these three elements with lots of training under simulated combat situations. The idea is to be prepared for any contact point (reference points), all degrees of contact and all varieties of energy feed. When you reach this stage, then (and only then) you are ready to use trapping in the street.

As for ranges, yuanfen has brought up a very interesting point! There is NO SUCH THING as "trapping range"! Many JKD practitioners define four ranges: kicking, punching, trapping and grappling. There is a point where (without you or your opponent moving) you can kick the opponent, punch or finger jab them, trap them and grapple them. So, at this point what range are you in? You are actually in what is known as medium range! There is no kicking, punching, trapping and grappling range. For some reason, somewhere down the line people started confusing categories of techniques for ranges!

After years of careful research, I realized that nowhere in Bruce Lee's writings did he ever refer to four ranges! NOWHERE! He did write about THREE ranges many times! They are long range, medium range and close range! I wrote an article on this a few years back for Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated magazine. I got many calls, emails and letter from JKD practitioners everywhere thanking me for opening their eyes to the truth and clearing up much confusion for them! The information is there, you just have to want to find it bad enough! :)

[yuanfen]

Good points Lamar from a different perspective.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Lamar,

Technique to range category errors are commonly expressed by many JKD people. Didn't know that you'd corrected that - great.

The so called ranges are more like 'dimensions' as in the three physical-spatial dimensions, we cannot experinec physical reality in any single dimension, . In fighting its the same all interact together as the 'dimensions of combat'. They can be plotted on a three dimensional graph.

There are only two true ranges: non-contact and contact.

I published on the above in:

Hop-Gar Mantis Kung-Fu: a science of combat
Pub Paul H Crompton Ltd
London
(2000).

Cheers,

Steve Richards.

[Water Dragon]

If Chi Sao is anything like Tui Shou, trapping would not be effective on the street. However, the things that you learn in Chi Sao should be very applicable.

[Budokan]

Yes, trapping is effective. No, your assailant isn't going to just hang his arm out there and let you take your time to lock it out for him. Fraction of a second? I'd say even less than that. You have to accomplish the trap within the fluid dynamics of the fight itself. Not easy to do, but devastating if you pull it off. (The trap, not the arm. Although....)

[rubthebuddha]

does any hand-to-hand range last for longer than a second or two?

honestly, streetfights aren't structured like point sparring, where fighters dance in and out of each other's range. nor is it like wrestling, where you either start facing or otherwise. it's fluid and you flow from range to range with a flick of the wrist.

[WTG]

Bruce Lee said hand imobilization attack (or foot or hair) trapping is a "nick name" what it really is is grappling! Holding and hitting... "trapping" works if you are given something to trap, IF you are functional.

The question should be, does YOUR trapping work in the street... It is always the man, not the method.

[feluk]

The martial art video reviews writers seem to think that trapping is'nt really effective in the street.

I think they said something like if trapping range even exists at all in a street fight,it would only be for a fraction of a second..etc. that trapping is'nt that useful.

What do you think ?
Any personal experience ?


Ironfist ,it's a pitty people think like

that.

Try and tell that to the best Wing Chun

Practitioners or JKD people,who studied

with the late Bruce Lee himself.

These 2 arts all use trapping in a fight
whenever possible.

Take Care

[feluk]

I would also like to add that there are

other martial arts systems,that use

trappings in a street confrontations too
like different styles of kung fu.

Filipino Martial arts,kenpo Ed Parker

system and different styles of Karate.

Take Care

[Steven T. Richards]

'Trapping' needs to be defined in order for different understandings of it to be brought to bear on the question of its relevance.

Trapping isn't a 'range' that is a category error that mistakes a classification of techniques for a spatial relationship. Such things were common in Middle Ages Europe as 'How far to the next village?' Answer 'Three bow shots'. Whose bow, what kind of bow: longbow, crossbow, composite bow?

'Range' is a variable of distance. Something may be in 'punching range' as a metaphor - but the 'range' itself is independent of the technical act of punching. What kind of punch would have to be specified, a Long-Fist strike at its full extremity of arc? or, maybe a Jook-Lum Mantis contact-accelerated phoenix-eye punch - both punches - very different distances.

Fighting occurs in physical space and utilises the three physical dimensions of length, breadth and depth. There are dimensions of combat too - striking techniques, leg & footwork techniques, grappling techniques - all interact. There are also the transcendent dimensions of psychology (information processing and personality dynamics) and, the 'temporal' dimension of time/timing.

'Trapping' is called many different things in many different systems. The JKD use of the term tends to make implicit demnds on the thinking of people who use it. 'Grappling' and 'striking' are all part of the rich interactive combat process - that may see aspects of 'trapping' so called as part of the matrix. same for leg techniques.

[JWTAYLOR]

I must admit, I stay out of the "trapping debate" because I have yet to be able to find what a definition of traping is.

Some people say that American Kenpo has trapping, and I'm like "great..." but I still can't figure out what trapping is. We do ALLOT of grabing and striking, and allot of pinning a striking. But is that considered trapping? If not, what is?

JWT

[MightyB]

All I can say is that in 7 Star Praying Mantis, the trapping is really fast. I mean FAST!!! We train for it all the time, it's in all of our forms, and we use it when we play hands. It's extremely reactive, efficient, deceptive, dynamic, and fast. It is also very difficult to learn and that's why I think that Praying Mantis takes a long time to learn. I posted on the Northern Praying Mantis forum something that I found in the midst of my own training, which is that it takes about 3 years of hard training before you can use Praying Mantis effectively. Beginning students always resort to something that resembles Thai boxing when they first learn to spar because they don't have enough time and confidence in their trapping skills. Maybe that's why the reviewers felt that trapping isn't effective, they haven't trained enough in it.

As far as the notion that every fight goes to the ground simply isn't true. I've been in 5 bonafide knock out drag out kick you when your down throw dirt in your eyes street fights in my life and none of them ended in a clinch takedown. If the guy lunged, I sidestepped and used what we would classify as a kow technique and let him fall, or, I kicked 'em in the face when they put their head down and lunged.

The Gracies reintroduced groundfighting to the martial arts and it is effective, I mean real effective, but they're few and far between of people that you'll meet on the street that have that level of skill to take you down and end up in a superior position with you fighting back.

Just my thoughts,

The Mighty B

[fa_jing]

JWT - Pinning is trapping. To me trapping is immobilization of an arm without grabbing.
-FJ

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Everyone!

Trapping - The immobilization of one or more limbs by way of grabbing, jerking, wedging or pinning, long enough to land a blow or series of blows.

Common Trapping Terms

Pak Sao - Slapping Hand
Lop Sao - Grabbing Hand
Lin Lop Sao - Cross Grabbing Hand
Jut Sao - Jerking Hand
Gum Sao - Pinning Hand
Lan Sao - Bar Arm
Man Geng Sao - Neck Pulling Hand

Movements Often Associated With Trapping

Tan Sao - Palm-up Hand
Boang Sao - Elbow In Air Hand
Bil Sao - Thrusting Fingers
Huen Sao - Circling Hand

Hope this helps!

[JWTAYLOR]

Well if that's what trapping is then I would say that it is used quite a bit in real fights.

I'm sure we've all seen someone holding someone else by the sleeve or arm while they pummell them with their other hand.

Pretty effective techniques.

JWT

[IronFist]

Thanks for the replies, guys :)

Iron