Southern Mantis - Why so secret?

[jon]

This is a discussion ive moved over from the "does you style have all the answers thread" Ive moved it becouse it was taking over the thread, so I thought it might do better here.
Southern Mantis is a very hard style to find accurate information on, its also very secretive and has been adopted into several Hakka familys. Im posting this thread in the hopes that southern mantis practioners everywhere will share with us a little of what they know.
What ever you feel comfortable saying.
We will take it as a given that anyone speaks only from there own training and experience so please no posts saying "thats not spm".
That said... Would anyone like to tell us.
There history according to there particular pai.
Any techniques or tactics favored eg locking, presure point work, methods of power delivery. Do you favour particular fist types.
Maybe tell us a little of your training and how long you have studyed.
Even if you just drop the name of your school it will help in giving an idea how many different pai's there are around.
Steven Richards also made several very informative posts in the before mentioned thread. I would also encourage everyone to read those as well. They are an excerlent start.
Come on all you spm people out there hiding in the grass:D

[yuanfen]

Is there much good southern mantis in Australia or even
UK? Not a "catty" comment. Genuinely curious. How many accomplished sifus estimated in each of the two countries?In many styles in a decade or so
new "grandmasters" seem to pop up.

[Steven T. Richards]

YF

As a 'gadfly' you ask a reasonable question, but you should accept that it is likely that such remarks phrased that way will either insult a lot of people or they will laugh at the ignorrance of someone who is not even from a Hakka art openly displaying what he doesn't, in his ignorance 'know'.

If you don't know anything about Hakka arts in the UK and Australia, why not ask?

Whatever.

To my own knowledge, SPM has been very well represented in Australia since the 1960's - e.g. malcolm Sue as a disciple of Ip-Shui's Chow-Gar. There are plenty of others - most of whom never speak out openly. There are also some very accomplished westerners in Australia who studied under Sue, for example Vietnam Vet. Les Williams whose street knowledge and real world fighting skill would make him a world acknowledged fighting Master if he had been born oriental.

In the UK Wong-Yuk-Gong's Pai under the late Grandmaster Yeung-Kum has been established since the 1950's as has Lee-Yin-Sing's Pai. These two groups will not normally teach westerners.
I know of only two schools that do so, and they teach a mixed curriculum. The major China Towns in UK cities all have Hakka communities and all have Hakka arts.

To get anywhere in opening these closed doors you have to earn the respect of the Chinese masters. Hakka Kung-Fu is not 'pulp' martial arts.

As for the alleged sudden upspringing of practitioners or as you say grandmasters of these arts, just because they were not/are not public does not mean that they were not/are not there.
They do not trust easily and generally keep their art to blood Hakka, or Chinese. Frankly, sometimes it's no wonder.

When a particular group from a hitherto secretive art makes itself public thru the internet or martial media, then the less reflective may think that there is/are no other Pai. A wrong assumption.

Most of the 'real' traditional Chinese Kung-Fu is kept to themselves within therir own community. It is that community that bestows acknowledgement and recognition on individuals - not the internet, not forums, not magazines and not people who are effectively 'outsiders'.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Jon,

Great idea, I'll do what I can to help.

Respect,

Steve.

[RedBuddhaStyle]

One of the main reasons that southern praying mantis is kept so secretive is that it was supposedly developed by the royal ming family while they were hiding in the southern shaolin temple. And since no one was supposed to know they were there, i guess the style never got known either.

[Turiyan]

Originally posted by RedBuddhaStyle
One of the main reasons that southern praying mantis is kept so secretive is that it was supposedly developed by the royal ming family while they were hiding in the southern shaolin temple. And since no one was supposed to know they were there, i guess the style never got known either.

Amazing. So from what I gather from kung fu myths and the true chinese history gleaned from martial arts video's. No one can tell hakka from yuen. Southern chinese from northern chinese. Or manchurian from southern chinese just by looking at them.

Uttlerly amazing. It just befuttles the mind. I learned that wing chun was used to kill manchurian's cavorting with chinese women in brothels!

Scene 1:
"Where you going?"
"Oh, gonna blow off some steam at the flower blossom club"
"Have fun, but dont forget to wear your conspicuous manchurian lord outfit".
"Oh yeah, thanks. I forgot."

Scene 2:
[Close up of door. Girls giggling. Two feirce wing chun fighters stand ready to kick down the door]
>crash<
"Hey, who are you?"
"We are of the red boat society. We are here to reinstate a non-creative dynasty that stagnated for hundreds of years before it was overthrown by manchurian barbarians!"

I was going to finish the chain-punch-of-death scene but its probably too violent for younger audiences.

Turiyan -- Flames ignored. Like I need a reason?
In memory of Chuck Schuldiner, R.I.P Dec. 13, 2001: http://www.emptywords.org/

[yuanfen]

Steven Richards:


If you don't know anything about Hakka arts in the UK and Australia, why not ask?

((Careful about over generalizations or stereotyping based on reading a post or two.. It's because I do not know the UK and Aussie scene on Hakka arts dissemination- that I did ask!. The Hakka are very very careful about (not) sharing their arts
and some non Hakka who claim to know a Hakka art thoroughly
are said to get bits and pieces according to some Hakka folks.
The business of exploring a closed group activity by westerners is not limited just to SPM. It would be good to see a knowledgeable Hakka's evaluation of the state of the Hakka arts in the non Hakka world. Several have referred to the "politics" of it all-
in the SPM world.
BTW UK and Oz are not the only places where the Hakka diaspora has taken place. There is a close knit Hakka community in Calcutta and some are Indian citizens and there was camaraderie in my youth with Hakka friends. I do NOT do SPM
but I do have a good SPM friend or two and I have seen some SPM. My "gadfly" like questions are not just about SPM. My art is wing chun but I happen to think that the vast majority of wing chun folks including in UK and Aussie land don't have a clue on the art. And I ask the same kind of questions in my art as well.Several of the southern hands were fairly closed groups and
yet some sharing in days of southern rebellions in anti Qing days did take place. ))
A note to a different poster ( Red Buddha style) : there was a Hakka migration to the South in the face of the Qing expansion towards the South.

[yuanfen]

Now discussions are over. Time fpr monologues?Turiyan the ex Brahmin and ex ex ex
has arrived!! <g>

[RedBuddhaStyle]

turiyan-

If u haven't realized or figured it out yet, the shaolin monks were hiding the royal ming family. Not that the family was in the temple and no one saw them. I just wanted to clarify that. The shaolin monks were like saviors of China, and hiding the royal ming family was just another way they helped out their home country.

[jon]

Steven ive read several posts of yours making reference to Chow Gar, I know Aussie John is proberly the one to be asking this, still can someone maybe let me know a little of the defining features of chow gar is it very different to other forms of spm?
Also on the subject of Hakka spm, is there much spm that is not hakka and if so how in your personal experiences has it compared?

Ive stated this before, though ill say it again:
Everything will be taken as personal exposure! I will not assume anyone to be speaking for the whole of spm or even the whole of there pai. This way we can all be more free to give our opinion.

To try and open this up im going to ask a few more questions relating to spm that i have personaly seen.

I have a video of someone performing the 18 point form from southern mantis, is this a common form?
It looked very nice, quite short and fast and almost totaly handwork.
Are there many kicks in your spm forms?

[Starchaser107]

Just wondering,
Has your girlfriend seen you training or been around when this goes on?
Does your mother and sisters embrace her as part of the family?
If so is she learning the style as well, or does she and her sister have any interest in kf at all.

[diego]

by donn f draeger and a malaysian sifu(sp),its a popular text,its in every library here in van,do any of you know what im talking about,pt2 was just printed it says the style came from a nun who adopted to orphan girls and raised/taught them in a cave,it talks about hakka,i'l have to get back from my frien cant remember the fine detials.
This book has come up on the southern board,do you guys know if its spm or which style of hakka may it be,also any idea how many styles within the hakka clans.I think at wingchunkuen.com it goes into hakka styles in the articles and the bulletin boards.

steve if the p-eye book is spm,we must chat through emial,maybe you can delve into the intricacies of the pheonix eye,in my hopga theres a pheonix eye in a heel-adduction"mantis stance"to the solar,can you answer through my emial.

If the style is not spm and you hakka guys have some links or info into what style that book is exactly.
thank you,& sorry for interrupting this discussion with a old topic.

[Steven T. Richards]

Yuan,

IF I've misjudged you then please accept my profound apologies.

Given how on previous threads you made it your business to trash dialectics, western science, philospophy anthropology and dialectics; make completely unsolicited attacks on other things that I was involved in martial arts wise; introduce SPM politics and then be unable to answer my questions - it was a reasonable thing to at least start with the premise that you were following a similar line.

Of course I know full well about the Hakka dispersion around the world. My Hakka family have roots throughout S.E. Asia and some of my Si-Gung's disciples also found their way to Australia.

As for the Indian sub-continent I'm familiar with its martial heritage -espescially its direct and anthropologically studied influence on Tibetan and later western and 'southern' Chinese arts.

You raise the 'non-Hakka' issue, I am completely open about my position - and about my acceptance by the Chinese. I state openly what I accept and do not accept about Chinese culture - and my reasons for same. I do not claim any superior cultural knowledge to anyone else and I certainly do not claim parity with blood Hakka or Chinese people culturally or within their martial arts. I do however make my position and status clear as bestowed by my Hakka family - as that is in their gift, howsoever that may irritate some other people.

A re-reading of former posts between us should suffice to make the situation clear.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

I had hoped that Aussie John would answer that question re Chow-Gar. My position is that there is huge diversity within systems that use the title SPM and that diversity is as great between branches of one named sub-system as between the larger branches of the art.

I'll mail him and ask him to contribute - I know that he is very busy.

He would be ideal to answer as he has studied a number of different branches.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi again Diego,

Used to speaking with you under the Tibetan threads!

The book you refer to gets a lot of controversial attention. I think that the first thing to remember with SPM systems is that the politics will intervene in most cases, before a discussion matures.

There a number of groups or individuals who are mainly concerned with establishing their ambitions for recognition or even dominance of the SPM field, and some of them will use what oportunities or tactics that they can to attack anything that is not connected to their particular lineage or aggenda. That book has suferred in that way on a number of other forums.

My position is that it represents a probable off-shoot of the SPM tradition, developed in a specific cultural/geographic environment, but I have no certain knowledge. I wouldn't write it off out of ignorrance or because it wasn't my 'pai'.

Hop-Gar uses the Phoenix-eye a lot - and very well too. I'll mail off thread if you wish?

Best Regards Friend,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Jon,

The 18 Point Form you mention is to my knowledge found only in the Jook-Lum branch issuing from Lam-Sang. It isn't as far as I know to be found in Wong-Yuk-Gong's lineage and is not practiced or studied in Lee-Yin-Sing's teachings.

Speaking for Lee-Yin-Sing's system, kicking methods along with all san-sau applications are taught 'live' and oportunistically as an integrated method, rather than abstractly within a form. this is common practice for Lee-Yin-Sing. The other Pai practice kicking methods in their forms but use them as in Lee-Yin-Sing, appropriately, rather than drill them abstractly.

Your question leads to some interesting points on how SPM approaches combat applications and training, and, the true role of forms practice.

Best Regards,

Steve.

[jon]

Steven T. Richards
Forms in my humble opinion should be treated as examples of how to apply certain techniques they shouldnt represent the whole teaching of a system. They also teach the body and mind to work as one.
Hung Ga is a system that in form doesnt contain many kicks either, yet masters like Wong Fai Hung were best known for there kicking ability.
Forms are [at least in my sifus school] like a backbone and way to remember techniques.
I beleve you understand a form when you can jumble it up and put it back together again at will.
That being said im only a junior really :) so i cant be to sure what ill think in another 5-10 years;)

Whats your schools use of forms? In terms of what role they play.
Have you found any similaritys between the Hung Ga you studied and the SPM you study now? They look at a face level quite different but looks can be just that.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

In LYS's Jook-Lum, the single long form is the equivalent of the 'genome' for the system. The individual movements are as genes, combinations as gene sequences and the sections as chromosomes. Just as in genetics, the end result is not apparent in the structure of the genes themselves. The individuals expression of the style is then as the phenotypical variation'.

I've published on martial arts anthropology ustilising the above metaphor in greater detail:

'From post-modernism to dialectical syncretism: undestanding the anthropology and cultural evolution of martial arts systems'.

Paper presentation to the Society of Martial Arts 1st International Conference and Graduation, Sports and exercise Science Faculty, Manchester Metropolitan University; July 1998.

A shortened version of the read paper is published in the Societies 'Proceedings'. Vol 1.

The above shows how LYS's people are 'application driven' it is a fighters art. The refinement necessary to produce and apply such a 'form' is a high level skill, not easily applied and not acquired at all without the requisite pressure testing.

Form in LYS refers to structure as much as anything else. Students 'feel' the art becoming manifest in them as they take on and express the principles of the system.

There wasn't that much in common with Hung Gar, and I had no idea how to make this system work at first. It was only thru the hard testing in a real environment (police work) that allowd me to understand fully. I had already 14 yrs martial arts behind me when I started LYS's Jook-Lum under the late Master Ho-Sing. His English was poor, so everything was a physical dialectic. It's a cliche to go on about a persons skills, but he was amazing: now sadly lost to us.

I've published on that long journey in a two volume autobiography: 'Martial Law: the memoirs of a Kung-Fu Cop' Vols 1 & 2. Published by New Breed (2001).

Cheers,

Steve.

[boy_analog]

Jon:

You do know that you can study SPM in Sydney, don't you? Henry Sue's crowd have a school here that trains in Willoughby, on Tuesdays and Thursdays IIRC.

I visited them a couple of months ago, escorting a friend. I liked them: nice people, no showing off, lots of personal attention. I'm committed to a different school; if I couldn't do that I'd probably train with these guys.

See:

http://www.chinesekungfuacademy.com/

[Ginger Fist]

Just wondering,
Has your girlfriend seen you training or been around when this goes on?

--yes ... she's all ready completed her 1st semester junior yr in college pre-med studies ... soon 2 b 17 yrs old ... u know ? her opinion of kungfu is ... right?

Does your mother and sisters embrace her as part of the family?

--they love her much more than me ... i'm the only male child so they're stuck with me ... they r hoping she will save me ... might work out that way

If so is she learning the style as well, or does she and her sister have any interest in kf at all.

--her sister is a valley girl wannabe j.a.p. ... ditzzy 2 the gills ... see above 4 other

--mr. steven t. richards--no 18 pt strike, som bo gin, 2 man sets & such in our hand ... 1 empty hand set ... 3 weapon sets ... 1 chi kung set ... many san sau ... the other stuff was created outside the temple ... 3 generations ... straight from kwongsai jook lum temple 2 my hands ... i'm 4th generation

[pazmoot]

.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Giles !

I must say that its brilliant to see you post here. Iron Ox Tong-Long is a most respected Pai in the UK - and Eduard Si-Fu is a true lineage holder from his Master.

How are things - long time no hear?

Respect Friend,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Gingerfist,

You make it sound like I know you, and if not, that I should.
Maybe you can help in our discussions?

Respect,

steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Giles,

My Chinese Si-Hing, James Ho-Ah-Tung (Ho-Sing's nephew) has told me that Iron-Ox Tong-Long is very similar to Lee-Yin-Sing's
original hand. There is much variation in teaching with his disciples - which he sanctioned as progressive.

I'm very curious as to which tape you have. Was it LYS's hand or was it Ho-Sing's? Ho-Sing's is changed somewhat - but completely
accepted by the Pai. I study both.

If you'd like some Ho-Sing on tape I'll happily forward some.

Respect friend,

Steve.

[pazmoot]

Hi Steve Si-Fu,

Thank you for your kind words.
best wishes to your family and Pai.

Respect

Giles

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Giles,

That might be 'Fik-Sau' a Wong-Yuk-Gong Pai Jook-Lum set. In the UK - WYG's Pai don't teach/study Three Step Arrow, but use this form instead. Some of LYS's people teach it to as an intro form )I do).

Many thanks, I'll send some stuff on to you,


Respect Friend,

Steve.

[Ginger Fist]

You make it sound like I know you, and if not, that I should.

--not my intent ... i have read every1 of ur posts ... more than 1 time ... u provide a key i need ... proof that real spm is open 2 other than hakka ... open more than public students & fake bai shi ... the old reasons r no longer true ... bamboo wall must come down

Maybe you can help in our discussions?

--maybe ... maybe not ... ask a ? & i'll try

[Wong Ying Home]

Two people who have been missed from this thread in the UK are SiFu Paul Whitrod, top closed door student of Ip Shui , and also Ip Shui's son both teaching in London. IN the Uk you don't get better than these two

[Royal Dragon]

Hello, I'm persuing Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, a Hakka art. It was developed by Chao, Kuang Yin in 960 AD just after he founded the Song dynasty. It is a northern long fist style. Eventually, a Southern system was developed as well, most likely developed in the Southern Song. There is a Monkey system as well. From what I have deciphered, it looks like the system was perfected by the Ming dynasty.

I know that the Chao family were close to the ruling family of the Ming, and held cabnet positions similar to congressmen, governers and Senators of our country. When the Manchurians conquered the Ming, the Chao family ran south with the Ming's royal family and became the Hakka.

Now that the history is out of the way, I am looking for any and all contact with practitioners and teachers of authentic Tai Tzu (Chao Family Fist). I am in contact with several right now, only one I really trust and I would like to establish relations with otheres. ESPECIALLY members of the Chao family, if possible. I only write and speak American English, so I know it may be difficult, but there was one Chao member here for a wile, until his death in 1996, so I am hopeful more will also speak English.

Can anyone help shed some light on contact info or history, or just Hakka info in general?

Royal Dragon

[Steven T. Richards]

Wong,

Threads develop over time and it takes people to speak out/write for this to happen. No one would miss out Si-Fu Paul and Ip-Che-Kung: but it needs people to talk with authority from whichever Pai or group that they belong to. I know Si-Fu Paul, he has proven himself to be a great friend, and I have written elsewhere on how impressed I am with Grandmaster Ip-Shui's Pai, both in terms of skill, and of the moral character of his students and grandstudents.

Please join in the discussion, maybe we can have an (almost) politics free discussion and sharing (at last) about the various SPM Pai? :)

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

As you seem to be from the USA, are you connected with Lam-Sang's Pai and lineage? Your descriptions suggest not.

Steve.

[jon]

"You do know that you can study SPM in Sydney, don't you?"
I was aware that there was some spm around Sydney, though wasnt sure if they taught publicly. Its certainly a style i would like to look into and possibly even train in. Still im already a student of Hung Ga kung fu and am very happy there with a good sifu. I cant see myself leaving my sifu yet, he has treated me very well and i wish to keep with him untill he thinks im ready to move on.
That said i also dont think i could study both at the same time while still doing justice to each as individual styles.
My sigung knows spm and im meeting him with some luck on this Saturday at our kung fu christmas party:D So im going to try and dig some information out of him about it.
I did have a good look around the site though, thanks a lot for the link.

[pazmoot]

.

[Ginger Fist]

As you seem to be from the USA, are you connected with Lam-Sang's Pai and lineage?

--no ... our hand is different ... grandmother says lys pai is like ours ... 2 generations back it was ... went straight 2 son ... shouldn't b different than his body made it ... seeds r seeds

Your descriptions suggest not.

--we r not ... we have remained pure ... no 4 public $tudent $tuff ... no fake bai shi $tuff ... the hands r 4 killing

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Giles,

As far as I know, Fik-Sau can be said to be an equivalent of SBG. That will be disputed by some - but its the limitaions of my knowledge as we do not have SBG. I teach FS for convenience as an elemetary set.

The SBG that I've seen has come from Lam-Sang's Pai and there seems to be variations on interpretation and practice within that Pai. Hopefully someone from that lineage will add to the discussion.

LYS does not have the Sarn Bo Gin Fung An Choi set. I would like to see it - it would be informative for me.

LYS has the 13 Roads set and a number of san sau forms unique to individual masters. I teach for example 'Fann-Sau' which is from Ho-Sing's hand. A lot of the essence of his fighting skills are held in that set.

I thought that the web site was down for updating? I am going to ask Aussie John if I can re-write it in co-opertaion with the UK
Wong-Yuk-Gong Jook-Lum Pai - as we consider ourselves to be 'One Pai'.

Great to be in discussion with you - and to have the oportunity for both myself and others to learn more of your splendid art.

Cheers Friend,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Gingerfist,

You seem to have a real fighters hand. Can you tell us something about your own single long hand form?

Cheers,

Steve.

[jon]

Can I ask...
When you say you do a single long form. How long does it usualy take to go though it from begining to end?
Is it taught bit by bit or usualy taught all together?
Also do you study weapons in your pai.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Good question. It is called a single long form, but, it could be broken down into three maybe four 'parts' each with a different emphasis. It's longer than any 'single' Hung-Gar form - but 'length' as such isn't it's purpose.

Many people get by only knowing the 'sequence' to 'Roads' 1 thru 4. They will have all the san-sau and techniques for roads 5 to 13, but not the sequence as such. Others stop a little higher up, others go all the way.

The sequence is an informal ranking system.

The main point is to push the student to stretch their abilities as far as possible - under pressure - both physical and moral.

The system is therefore not 'form' based but 'application driven', guided by principles. Form, as structure, becomes 'immanent' in the person as they make maniest the principles. The art is said then to be 'present' in the person of the practitioner - the two as one.

That said, there exist a whole bunch of san-sau forms unique to various teachers, some distilled from Roads 5 - 13, others quite distinct.

The essence of the art however is in it's '13 Roads'.

Yes, there are weapon sets, taught initially as short two man forms and then extended out into longer single man sets. With the weapons as with the hands, the empahsis is on pressure tested skill.

I had hoped that Aussie John could have posted as he can compare and contrast this approach with other Mantis systems thru his direct experience.

Cheers Jon.

[jon]

Thanks for the reply Steven, your a regular wealth of information:D
Another question i just picked out of your last post.
"The main point is to push the student to stretch their abilities as far as possible - under pressure - both physical and moral."
I wanted to ask what you meant by 'moral' testing? This is usualy done in most systems simply over time and by the sifu watching the charactor traits of the students.
Given that spm is often taught in a family situation, i can imagine that moral testing must become a very different issue.
How is moral then tested in a hakka art? Given that we have discussed things such as pressure point strikes being taught almost from the start of training, and its usualy past down in family how would a family member be tested moraly?
Hope im not boring you with all these questions:)
Thank you kindly for all your past replies.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Thanks for your kind remarks. I can only really speak for my own Pai (LYS/HS). Moral pressure testing is basically maturity and guts under the continuous impulse from the Si-Fu to stretch yourself to learn more - to go to failure point without giving up heart.

The 'it's too difficult' and 'I'm only a beginner' kind of argument are examples of barriers that need to be crossed.

On another thread (I think - I'm losing count) I mentioned testing your own style to its failure point - which most students have great difficulty with - as if to be able to defeat aspects of your own system would make you 'disbelieve in it'. It's the same kind of projection of magic that goes onto a lot of teachers from their students - 'I can't hit Si-Fu otherwise that means that he's no good and then what the f*ck am I learning this sh*ite for?'

As I said on another thread (? or is it this one?) where students say that 'no one has passed my Si-Fu's hands', then I think that they aren't being taught properly. I teach my people to beat me - that makes me work all the harder. Anyway, my students whack me all the time - which suggests that I'm probably doing some things right. Of course how they 'handle' their victory is a good moral indicator too - it is easy to get inflated as the often secret desire behind not wanting to hit your teacher (as he is so good and to get thru blows the illusion) is that the student wants to
'replace' you - very much like in a Baboon troupe - or indeed very Freudian as in wanting to 'overthrow the Father'.

Moral development means that these issues are faced with maturity. Knowing that you have to 'grow up' yourself and not get glory vicariously or otherwise by proxy, makes more demands than living in Daddies shadow.

Those that 'fail the attitude test' with consistancy, get no-where in this Pai.

Loyalty too is prized - and that goes for all Hakka Pai - which must in my Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien's words be 'as one family'.

Cheers Jon,

Steve.

[pazmoot]

.

[pazmoot]

..

[Ginger Fist]

You seem to have a real fighters hand. Can you tell us something about your own single long hand form?

--mmmmmmmm ... okey dokey .... sumthin like this: give-receive thru 6 doors in 3 directions ... each door gives & receives on 3 angles ... inside- out ... outside-in ... straight thru ... up & down played 2 ... in each of 3 directions ... front-left-right ... not done as set ... branches practiced 1 at a time ... san sau with partner done right after branch practice ... san sau match branch ... dummy used right after san sau 2 make corrections ... back 2 san sau 2 make sure the understanding is right & corrections stick ... always live against person ... person never helps - tries 2 hurt ... random hands thru practice door as proof ... this is 1 way of doing ? we call practicing the set ... answer ur ?

[Andrew]

On a slightly different note. I have been told by some senior
Chow gar people. People of Ip Shui's generation and the
generation afterwards, that the first form they learnt
was not Sarm Bo Gin, but Faht Sau. Faht Sau is sometimes
translated as Fut Sau/ or 'Buddha hands', in the same way
you have Choy Li Fut.

From my source, this is seen as a pronouncation mistake.
That the cantonese sound for 'Fut' is similar to the Hakka
sound 'Fik' meaning to 'whip' or a 'whip-like' motion. To me this
makes more sense as the form uses whipping actions. Also in
my knowledge most Kung fu forms which make reference to
Buddha, have some salute or posture to acknowledge
buddha, also SPM has such a weak link to religon, it strikes
me as odd, to have a form named such.

Which is why, I find Mr Richard's mentioning Fik-Sau as the root of
his Pai, very interesting. Maybe its just a concidence, at the
end of the day, its sort of anorak history. As you're discussing
history rather than the actual art itself.

Andrew

[Ginger Fist]

Buddha, have some salute or posture to acknowledge
buddha, also SPM has such a weak link to religon, it strikes
me as odd, to have a form named such.

--that's cuz u study cr*ap ... not real spm ... the perfection in spm came straight from temple ... not 4 wannabes with ur dead wood sh*it tho ... ur stuff was made up much later from lil of this & lil of that

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Giles,

Re Fik-Sau, some who claim affiliation (a specific here un-named group) to Lam-Sang's pai in the USA - would likely dispute the equivalence of Fik-Sau to SBG. They are very vocal about their position on SBG as the 'Foundation' of ALL SPM.

I agree about the huge range and diversity of forms that carry the name 'Som-Bo-Gin'.

It is VERY interesting to me that you mention an original single Long-Form as the origin set for SPM.

As this is a contentious issue for some, I'd hope that someone from other branches of SPM would contribute also - specifically Lam-Sang's pai...

Respect Friend,

Steve:

Hi Andrew,

That too is VERY interesting... when I first learned this set the pronounciation was Fut-Sau - later changed to Fik-Sau. We have it as a Wong-Yuk-Gong Pai Jook-Lum set - incorporated as an intro form in the teachings of some of our Pai.

BTW, about 'Gingerfist' - it's hard to know how to take him. I'm unsure of his identity, but, I suspect that he is using a specific style of writing to draw out certain issues/information.

Respect Friend, hope to meet up soon,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Gingerfist,

What your write sounds very familiar with respect to practice and structure. I'd be VERY interested to hear more from you about your pai.

Regards,

Steve.

[yuanfen]

If he is indeed Hakka he probably wont say much about the details- and I will go out on a limb- probably shouldn't.

[108kuen]

Hi all,
I'm new here, although I recognize some people I have communicated with privately about spm. My background is in one of the branches under Lum Sang, although I have not trained formally in a while, and am still very much a beginner. I wanted to add that I was told that the sets taught in our pai were in fact one long set originally, and were broken down later.

[Ginger Fist]

Re Fik-Sau, some who claim affiliation (a specific here un-named group) to Lam-Sang's pai in the USA - would likely dispute the equivalence of Fik-Sau to SBG.

--stupid position by sang's people if true ... y unnamed? ... if lum sang formally recognized them they have the right to say things ... that is - 2 say about their pai ... nothing more tho

They are very vocal about their position on SBG as the 'Foundation' of ALL SPM.

--who is they? ... same unnamed group - yes? ... they r not unnamed ... they r fu(king stupid sh*it4brains who know nothing of real spm ... stupid people saying stupid things

[Ginger Fist]

What your write sounds very familiar with respect to practice and structure.

--yessireebob ... same 'ol same 'ol, huh? ... nothing new in the universe ... good stuff goes on - sh*it goes away

I'd be VERY interested to hear more from you about your pai.

--more? ... yikes!!! ... i'll try ... no promise tho ... u ask the ? i'll c if i can answer

[Ginger Fist]

If he is indeed Hakka he probably wont say much about the details- and I will go out on a limb- probably shouldn't.

--batta bing! give da man a cigar! ... mr. steven t. richards on the other hand ... has the goods & can tell 2 ... shhhhwwwweeet!

[Ginger Fist]

I wanted to add that I was told that the sets taught in our pai were in fact one long set originally, and were broken down later.

--thass right ... now ... can u put it back together & then take it apart 2 meet ur needs? ... ur skill level decides ur needs ... so ... can u do it?

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello 108,

Welcome, it is good to have someone in Lam's tradition posting. Interesting confirmation about the original form. Do you know its name or characteristics?

Regards,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Gingerfist,

The vast majority of Lam's people are good, humble and worthy martial artists of the highest character and martial standard.
I know many of then and regard them as my friends and brothers in Kung-Fu
In the case of this particular group it may be simply a matter of enthusiasm for their beloved art and lineage. In the absence of them coming forward - they monitor this board - I'll await before naming anyone. it would be impolite otherwise.

Where do you know my Pai from? You also post mentioning me by name. What may I ask is the basis for your apparently kind remarks? Do I know you?

Regards,

Steve.

[pazmoot]

.

[Ginger Fist]

The vast majority of Lam's people are good, humble and worthy martial artists of the highest character and martial standard.

--certainly they r ... y wouldn't they b?

I know many of then and regard them as my friends and brothers in Kung-Fu

--kewl beans 4 ya

In the case of this particular group it may be simply a matter of enthusiasm for their beloved art and lineage.

--that's no excuse 4 saying stupid sh*it like som bo gin is the end all & b all of all spm ... could b right 4 them & that's it ... stupid people saying stupid things

In the absence of them coming forward - they monitor this board -I'll await before naming anyone.

--makes no matter 2 me ... just b names

Where do you know my Pai from?

--???? ... we know lys from his roots ... 3 generations straight from the temple 2 my hands ... i'm 4th generation ... & u still haven't asked the right ?

You also post mentioning me by name. What may I ask is the basis for your apparently kind remarks?

--lee yin sing straight 2 son ... u r disciple of son ... all the way inside ... u r a gweilo ... adopted - accepted by hakka family as family ... 4 people as 4 systems - seeds r seeds

Do I know you?

--not from this life time ... maybe another

[Sam]

Grand Master Lam Sang was transmitted the 108 form created by the combined effort of Lei Siem-Sam Dot-Wang. This is the reason Lam Sang's lineage and forms do not resemble other mantis lineages.

[Andrew]

Hi Pazmoot

In my case, its not a case of the form being known by another
name, its case of different dialects. So people use the sound
or word which is most similar in their dialect.

Also, the story of Ip Shui learning Chow gar in 7 months, this
is incorrect. Before Ip Shui, there was no Chow gar, only Chu
gar. This is another story, I have been told that Ip Shui
looked after Lau Sui whilist he was very ill, I believe Lau Sui
may have been on his death bed. All of Lau Sui's students
except for Ip Shui where Hakka. So in order to show his thanks,
he gave Ip Shui, Chow gar mantis, again Chow being the
closest character/sound/word to Chu in cantonese. This way
his Hakka students would not be offended and Ip Shui's
loyalty would be rewarded.

As such, because he is the master of the style he is free to
add/alter/amend his training methods.

Again these are stories told to me, the truth and validity of
them, I can't say for sure.

[Ginger Fist]

Grand Master Lam Sang was transmitted the 108 form created by the combined effort of Lei Siem-Sam Dot-Wang.

--that's a crock-o-sh*it stumpy ... don't waste ur time writing back ... i got it straight from temple thru family ... family archives hold many records - writings of what was - who was & when ... u got sh*it myth

This is the reason Lam Sang's lineage and forms do not resemble other mantis lineages.

--that's a crock-o-sh*it 2 stumpy ... each pai is marked by its temple source ... nothing special 'bout sang's hand

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Gilles and Andrew,

Great to share information, and for me, to be able learn about other Pai.

Andrew, you and I are from the same Liverpool Hung-Gar school - in the long past, and Giles, I respect you as a friend and also as a student of the respected lineage holder of the Iron Ox Tong Long: Si-Fu Edurado Barrios.

I'd like if possible, if we could all meet up early in the new year?
I'm meeting with elders from Wong-Yuk-Gong's Tong-Long in January, and some Hakka Elders from Lee-Yin-Sing's Pai.

It would be good to cement relations between LYS J-L, Iron-Ox T-L and Chow Gar.

Friendship is the way ahead.

Regards,

Steve.

[Andrew]

Okay, it would be very interesting to meet up, and an
excellent way to start the new year. So the idea gets
my vote.

Andrew

[pazmoot]

.

[Andrew]

I dont think he learnt differently, I feel he modified his version
of SPM. He may have added a few forms, I have been
told that originally the second and third forms of chow gar
mantis were one single form.

I'm not in a postion to say whether this was right or wrong.
I'm sure he could justify why things are dpne the way they are.

Andrew

[108kuen]

Unfortunately I do not know the name of the original form that we were discussing. I will check my notes from my training days to see if I have any more information that I'm forgetting. The fact that the sets in the pai I trained with were at one time a single set was told to me while in conversation after class one night, as opposed to an "official" lesson on jook lum history, so my info is incomplete. I will see what I can find out.
As a side note, very good discussion. I am glad that I got here in time for it :D

[Ginger Fist]

Unfortunately I do not know the name of the original form that we were discussing.

--stupid answer 2 a ? u never knew the answer 2

I will check my notes from my training days to see if I have any more information that I'm forgetting.

--dude!!! 4 sure!!! ... y not check ur notes 2 c if the answer 2 my ? 4 u is in there ... doubt it

The fact that the sets in the pai I trained with were at one time a single set was told to me while in conversation after class one night, as opposed to an "official" lesson on jook lum history, so my info is incomplete.

--oh dude ... u r very incomplete ... ur profile is incomplete ... ur attempt 2 pretend u know ? u do not is incomplete ... so - ? is ur name & who is ur sifu?

I will see what I can find out.

--sure ... yeah, sure ...

As a side note, very good discussion. I am glad that I got here in time for it

--4 sure!!! ... now how 'bout fessing up & adding 2 the discussion

[Steven T. Richards]

This is a potentially difficult question, as, there are those who may answer it devisively, in favour of one lineage.

Given that I've posed the question - I better answer it - at least from my own perspective.

As I see it there are two general categories for potential answers:

1. Pai/Lineage 'X' is the only one and everybody else sucks.

2. All traditional Pai are authentic, having diversified from a common root.

Under 1. there will be a general tendency to reduce the whole art - all branches all pai and teachings to a single lineage, and, therefore, likely a single individual. A living incumbant of that line will probably be held up as the 'only' embodiment of the whole art. A deceased/historical Master/representaive of this line will be approprited post-mortem - as justification for reducing the art to the one true line. It may be that this line of argument is utilised to fulfil the ambitions of a single individual who may lead a pressure group active in promoting its own agenda.

Under 2. there will be a broad acceptance of all traditional Pai and lineages as unique but equally valid expressions of an original source(s). The various histories will be respected and acknowledged as 'true' in the sense that they are origin myths/culturally legitimised narratives (unless they, or any one of them. are proven demonstrably to be true). This will relativise the respective claims of the various Pai, and take out a lot of the unnecessary political strife that does not serve the interests of the art - but generally only of ambitious individuals.

There are many other potential categories - I mention the two above as examples of polarised viewpoints in the hope that they can be discussed openly, and, that some posters may elaborate the discussion by introducing further categories that occupy the middle ground between the two.

FWIW, I subscribe personally to category 2. Openess and friendship is the best way forward. From my experience category 1. only serves to cause the art to turn against itself - to the advantage of some who would destroy it, if they cannot 'own' it.

Steve.

[pazmoot]

.

[Ginger Fist]

#1 is not an option ... it is a fiction created 4 political gain ... only a total moron would buy in1 option #1 & only complete idiots would follow the total moron ... here's y ... ? we call spm is hakka hand ... it was known as hakka hand long be4 any kwongsai jook lum tong long name ... long be4 any temple association at all ... what happened in the temple was not creation ... it was perfecting - refinement ... so - each monk who spent a couple of decades or more in the temple & used the hand as part of their daily routine eventually had the hand in refined form ... that refined form bears the stamp or mark of the individual monk ... there is not & hasn't at any time been a thingymabob known as "the" spm ... if the seeds are present ... then spm is present ... for 1 pai to claim superiority over another is stupid, ignorant, has no merit & proves that the claiming pai is poisoned with power grubbing as*sholes who know nothing of real spm ... 2 know real spm is 2 know the truth of this thing ... each generation within the temple produced many hands ... some better than others - maybe ... more like the individual was superior & not the hand system ... all real spm pai have the seeds ... that & that alone is what marks the hand ... it is only the seeds that really matter - the rest is personal preference ... the #1 option is dogsh*it poseur sh*it4brains stuff 4 $$ gain

[diego]

how widespread is/was hakka kung fu,you wrote in the temples spm was refined,how diverse is hakka,obviously not bieng a student and it bieng family style i only know abit what is in popular print.
thanks

Steve,what styles madeup spm,why is it called mantis when i remember reading something like they used it to cover hakka relations from the ching or???.

[JF Springer]

Hello Steve:

Apparently my account is now activated. I looked around and read several of the posts on the thread you directed me to.

Quite a group of people involved in this particular discussion. It was good to see Joy active on the forum. Read the recent piece on your teacher and featuring you as well Joy. You looked good,
nice and relaxed.

At any rate, okay Steve, I'm here until you say otherwise but I don't believe I can be very active until things calm down a bit in the office. It is "Silly Season" time at least through the New Year.

I was particularly pleased to read posts wherein various Southern Praying Mantis Pai are communicating in a spirit of cooperation.

Perhaps in time we will be able to move in the direction of an informally structured association to promote unity and openness within the greater SPM family.

Given the divisive nature of our past, and the age of the current lineage holders, the time seems right to move forward and leave the past where it properly belongs, in the past.

This can be accomplished without any Pai sacrificing their oral and/or written history. Simply a matter of any given Pai openly declaring what it holds to be the truth of a matter and said declaration going unchallenged or assaulted by the other Pai. 100% agreement on all issues should never be the goal as our diversity is a source of strength.

I hope this goes well and if anyone is in, or plans to be in, the Maryland, USA area you are welcome to contact me and pay a visit. My E-mail address is listed in my profile.

[jon]

I think diego just touched on an interesting issue.
The naming of Southern Mantis, is there a big reference to the insect in the system or is it something different.
Are there ANY similaritys to Northern Mantis?
Can anyone tell me why they beleve the art was named after the mantis?
Also I asked this before but I think it was overlooked, is there any SPM that is not of a Hakka orgin?
Sorry for all the questions and i appreciate any answers.
Im doing this to try and let the general public [including me] learn a bit more about the system of SPM in general.
To many people have no idea how true southern systems train or why they do some things the way they do. Im hoping this discussion will open a few eyes.

[Ginger Fist]

how widespread is/was hakka kung fu,

--? do u mean how wide spread? hakka hand spread with hakka movement thru the world ... still spreading

you wrote in the temples spm was refined,

--refined not created ... no more than 150 yrs old ... at best ... foundations r much older 4 sure

how diverse is hakka,

--? do u mean diverse? do u mean how many hakka systems r there? if that's the ? who could say? ... as many as hakka families that have kept m.a. in their heritage

obviously not bieng a student and it bieng family style

--aaahhhrrr!!!! ... not family as u use the word ... sh*it - every1 is a family like this ... even in the old days exceptions happened ... the hakka & only 4 hakka rule was broken ... yuan fen does this

i only know abit what is in popular print.

--no idea ?'s in popular print ... don't care ... my family archives go back 3 generations

thanks

--u r welcome ... find a teacher ... u discover ur truth - don't let some1 tell u ? ur truth is

[Ginger Fist]

The naming of Southern Mantis, is there a big reference to the insect in the system or is it something different.

--sumthin different

Are there ANY similaritys to Northern Mantis?

--fu(k no!!! northern mantis su(ks pig balls ... floating root sh*it doesn't work

Can anyone tell me why they beleve the art was named after the mantis?

--i know but can't say ... if u had the answer it wouldn't make sense 2 u ... not information useful 2 some1 not spm

Also I asked this before but I think it was overlooked, is there any SPM that is not of a Hakka orgin?

--some say yes - some say no ... doesn't matter ... can't trace back 2 the 1st event

[diego]

diverse:
how wide spread,meaning is thier only spm arts from hakka,seems like a stupid question,one style from a whole race,but i cant remember reading about famous hakka hsingyi
or wing chun,so.

you said it wouldnt make sense,describing why mantis is in the southern when it has nothing to do with the insect,why wouldnt it make sence,its eathier pointa or b theres no c.:confused:

[108kuen]

Reread my first post you illiterate ****. I will be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, and I stated that. My second post was directed at the questions Mr. Richards asked me, as your questions were irrelevent and barely comprehensible. As for the refrence to my notes, this was about the history of the art, not the fist itself. Ask your grandmother for some spelling lessons.
To answer the only question that made sense, I studied under GM Henry "Poo" Yee

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello 108Kuen,

Thank you for your posts - I respect GM Yee very much, his skill is very refined and as a standard bearer in our art of SPM.

Be great to hear more about you, your training and experiences.

Regards,

Steve.

[pazmoot]

.

[yuanfen]

In SPM there seems to several "GMs" as also seems to be the case in several other arts these days. Is "GM" an old customary
designation? If so how and if not so how is the designation GM dtermined in SPM? How did Poo Yee become a GM for instance?
Designation by another GM? Number of years in or manner of learning the art? Honor given by a teacher, or first or the second generation after a GM? Is GM simply a Anglo American equivalent of the head of a particular family amidst several other families?
Is GM correlated with terms out the sifu, sigung, sijo kind of sequence? Is it simply a political question? CEO or head of a contemporary organization?If only political, I dont need an answer? I am not in SPM but am trying to get a sense of the nomenclature in the art among those who pracyice it..

[Steven T. Richards]

Yuan 'P',

You will get different answers according to perspective as you would within your own dessicated Wing-Chun art.

My position regarding that title is that it is for the head of 'Family' of a particular lineage - a line of sucession - as appointed by the previous Grandmaster.

However, also as a mark of respect to clear representatives of another branch or tradition who have a valid claim to head a line even if diversified from a common root in the previous generation.

I have no difficulty at all in acknowledging such Grandmasters even though they are from another Pai within the overall SPM art.

[Steven T. Richards]

SPM is not the only Hakka art.

Avoiding unnecessary partisan statements, an athropological study would likely show that all the Hakka arts have a common root and share much in structure, theory and ritual. The origin myths and culturally legitimised narratives that support claims to pre-eminence amongst the different traditions are interesting in their own right, but are not generally verifiable historically.
Analysis of form and structure are likely as in genetics, to show true relationships between Pai - including points of divergance evolution and adaptation.

Steve

[Steven T. Richards]

JF Springer,

Hello John,

Good balanced points as ever, and great to have you here on the thread!

Gingerfist,

You let your information out purposefully I suspect;)

The following about sums up the view in my Pai (very abreviated)

Lee-Yin-Sing's art came from the Kwangsi Temple via Monk Lee-Tik, a different line to that passed to Wong-Yuk-Gong from Cheung-Yiu-Cheung, and to Lam-Sang by Monk Lee-Siem.

Wong and Lam are the better known branches of 'Kwangsi Jook-Lum' Tong-Long.

Lee-Yin-Sing's/Monk Lee-Tik's art is a branch of Jook-Lum, and uses the name appropriately as it derives from that temple, but,
my first Si-Fu the late Master Ho-Sing (disciple of Lee-Yin-Sing) simply referred to it as 'Lam-Pai Tong-Long' (SPM) not Jook-Lum as such. My current Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien, son and direct inheritor to Lee-Yin-Sing and Monk Lee-Tik says it is Jook-Lum, but, also simply 'Tong-Long Pai'.

This suggests to me that the arts roots may preceed the Temple itself and are likely to root themselves into the blood of the Hakka people.

'What's in a name?' - an awful lot to some...

Cheers,

Steve.

[Ginger Fist]

Lee-Yin-Sing's art came from the Kwangsi Temple via Monk Lee-Tik,

--this is right ... lee tik was known as such 2 lys & several others ... only lys carried 4ward 2 teach ... the others took 4 personal cultivation ... maybe a family member or 2 ... not known 2 us

a different line to that passed to Wong-Yuk-Gong from Cheung-Yiu-Cheung,

--this is right 2 ... the difference was not in the seeds ... personal preference ... not a different line until wyg took his 1st family

and to Lam-Sang by Monk Lee-Siem.

--very good mr. steven t. richards ... u have said the names & start of spm histories 4 all 3 pai ... who taught u this mr. steven t. richards? ... lee-lien or some1 else? ok if u can't share

Wong and Lam are the better known branches of 'Kwangsi Jook-Lum' Tong-Long.

--better known where mr. steven t. richards? better known 2 whom? not 2 hakka 4 sure ... who then? if u mean under the name kwongsai jook lum tong long - maybe ... but this name is modern so who gives a pigsh*it

Lee-Yin-Sing's/Monk Lee-Tik's art is a branch of Jook-Lum, and uses the name appropriately as it derives from that temple,

--wasn't always that way mr. steven t. richards ... lys had the temple refined hand 4 a long time it was called this

but, my first Si-Fu the late Master Ho-Sing (disciple of Lee-Yin-Sing) simply referred to it as 'Lam-Pai Tong-Long' (SPM)

--we do not know ho-sing ... ? other names was he known as? ok if u can't share

not Jook-Lum as such.

--temple id is modern

My current Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien, son and direct inheritor to Lee-Yin-Sing and Monk Lee-Tik says it is Jook-Lum, but, also simply 'Tong-Long Pai'.

--yes ... sometimes hakka tong long pai ... can u say another name it has? i might b able 2 ... have 2 ask mother 1st

This suggests to me that the arts roots may preceed the Temple itself and are likely to root themselves into the blood of the Hakka people.

--dam*nzilla mr. steven t. richards!!! ... u have said it ... the hand is very old ... linked 2 the whole of hakka - blood is the right word ... temple refined - didn't create

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

I suspect that you know more than you let on, about my Pai, particularly its background and attitude.

GM Lee-Lien accepts all Hakka arts as one family. If the seeds are there then the Hakka spirit is there, it is not a question of style but of substance.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

Ho-Sing had another 'name' his actions in Kong-Sau necessitated it to change. Apparently the death of a Filipino fighter found floating in Hong-Kong harbour is linked by some to this.
I know personally of several challenge fights that Master Ho-Sing was involved in, including other Hakka and fighters from many varied arts and cultures. I witnessed him defeat my former Hung-Gar Si-Fu.

Ho-Sing also taught under the name; 'Tao-Yin-Lee'.

Ho-Sing was a great fighter, but, by all accounts perhaps only number two as challenge fighter under Lee-Yin-Sing. The top fighter was William 'Mad Police Dog' Tsang of Belfast Northern Ireland (now sadly passed). His son still teaches, privately, no non-Hakka to my knowledge. William Tsang taught with GM Lee-Lien in New York USA in the late 1960's.

The common link to all Hakka arts comes from GM lee-Lien. He teaches Hakka fist and weapons sets in addition to his Tong-Long.

He is pure blood 100% Hakka, his roots run very deep. He is Lee-Yin-Sing's only blood son, although Lee-Yin-Sing adopted another Chinese as his son.

'Adoption' is common in Lee-Yin-Sing's family, GM Lee has adopted and supported many Chinese children including the daughter of William Tsang.

The family is very strong, very tight knit. Open to friendly people, fierce and implacable if wronged.

True Hakka.

[Ginger Fist]

The phoenix Eye fist is a northern fist

--dream on u pus*sy

So effectively Southern Praying Mantis is Northern Praying Mantis.

--buy more magazine$ ... ur knowledge need$ more i$$ues ... poseur

[Ginger Fist]

I suspect that you know more than you let on, about my Pai, particularly its background and attitude.

--not ? i know directly ... knowledge of ur pai comes from much older sources ... attitude ... i like that word ... care 2 share more?

GM Lee-Lien accepts all Hakka arts as one family.

--good 4 him ... that's the right way

If the seeds are there then the Hakka spirit is there, it is not a question of style but of substance.

--kewl stuff 2 say ... right 2

[pazmoot]

.

[Ginger Fist]

Insults like this, from someone who hides their true identity

--my id is stated in my profile ... u have no name ... u have no lineage ... u r nobody so keep ur mouth shut ... sissy boy

and gives constant and unhelpful abuse are not something that interest me.

--u have no name ... u have no lineage ... u r nobody so no 1 cares 'bout nothing & u r nothing

I will not reply to anymore of your comments.

--good ... i don't listen 2 nothing & u have no name ... u have no lineage ... u r nothing

I find them childish and cowardly.

--big brave words from some1 2 chickensh*it to say their name ... big brave words from some1 2 much a coward 2 say their lineage
... add stupid & coward 2 u & that's all u have ... a stupid coward that is nothing ... sissy boy

You have no respect for others.

--u have no name ... u have no lineage ... u r not others ... u r nothing ... can't respect nothing ... wannabe

[Ginger Fist]

Ho-Sing had another 'name' his actions in Kong-Sau necessitated it to change.

--okey dokey ... not important 2 know ... just curious

I witnessed him defeat my former Hung-Gar Si-Fu.

--kewl beans ... good hung gar is tuff stuff ... powerful ... killing hands ... = good spm wins ... forms up faster ... just a fact not a knock

Ho-Sing also taught under the name; 'Tao-Yin-Lee'.

--drew a blank on that name 2

Ho-Sing was a great fighter, but, by all accounts perhaps only number two as challenge fighter under Lee-Yin-Sing.

--kewl beans 4 sure ... we know lee yin sing ... no pigsh*it person ... some say a kind - gentle man ... some say a harsh - honest man ... all say he kicked much as*s ... never backed down - never lost ... none say bad things

The top fighter was William 'Mad Police Dog' Tsang of Belfast Northern Ireland (now sadly passed).

--steeeeriiiiiike 3 & i'm out!!!! these r not the names they must b known as by my people ... doesn't matter ... many things went away when relocating ... that's good 2

His son still teaches, privately, no non-Hakka to my knowledge. William Tsang taught with GM Lee-Lien in New York USA in the late 1960's.

--okey dokey ... did they teach non-hakka ... chinese or gweilo?

The common link to all Hakka arts comes from GM lee-Lien. He teaches Hakka fist and weapons sets in addition to his Tong-Long.

--dude - that's so awesome!!! besides u r there any more gweilo inside the door? it's ok if u can't share

He is pure blood 100% Hakka, his roots run very deep. He is Lee-Yin-Sing's only blood son,

--oh my ... pity 4 him ... being the only son blows goat balls ... good 2 c he maintained the family standard ... doesn't always happen that way ... yuan fen decides

'Adoption' is common in Lee-Yin-Sing's family, GM Lee has adopted and supported many Chinese children including the daughter of William Tsang.

--adoption is common with our people ... most think of legal thing ... not the right way 2 look at it

The family is very strong, very tight knit. Open to friendly people, fierce and implacable if wronged.

--hakka 4 sure ... no mercy 4 those that cross it ... infinite compassion 4 those it embraces

True Hakka.

--batta bing!!! good indicator 4 sure

[pazmoot]

.

[Steven T. Richards]

Good points Giles,

This thread has a vein of good posts that are informative for us all
(I am certainly learning from them).

There are a variety of ways of making a point or drawing out information, most of them are helpful and respectful.

Lets keep the thread alive.

Regards Friend,

Steve.

[yuanfen]

Steve Richards said:My position regarding that title is that it is for the head of 'Family' of a particular lineage - a line of sucession - as appointed by the previous Grandmaster.
---------------------------------------------
The head of a family designation is quite understandable. Appointment by a previous GM however can be problematic at times. In any case the GM designation then does not necessarily mean a specified level of knowledge.... correct? Or even-ness in quality control- away from temple foundations?


Steve, I found your analogy of the role of a form in terms of a model from genetics meaningful and helpful and insightful. From a code to individuality.

I really am not personal though differences in positions can make it appear to be the case. This was true with your " method
"umbrella of "dialectics". i am not unfamiliar with the term whether Platonic or Hegelian.I wont play credential games. But I think that at times- the simplest explanations and analysis per Occam's razor can do. without dragging poor Hegel all over the place. And you know what Marxist dialectics spinning off from Hegel can do...So dialectics can be insightful but fraught with subjectivity as well.

I found your reference to the Hakka influence outside of SPM interesting. Many folks may not be aware of some of the old Hakka influences. the differences can disguise some of the old similarities. But the reclusive ness of the real Hakka remains.
And the reclusive ness is reflected in some southern masters in several arts. Part of the phenomenon you call "desiccation". Folks who know bits and pieces creating lineages all over the place,

[Ginger Fist]

Reread my first post you illiterate ****.

--did that stumpy ... checked ur profile 2 ... u have no name ... no lineage ... bummer 4 u 2 b nobody

I will be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, and I stated that.

--ur profile said it best ... u know nothing & r nobody

My second post was directed at the questions Mr. Richards asked me, as your questions were irrelevent and barely comprehensible.

--urs read clear ... clearly u know nothing - don't even have a name ... pity 4 u

As for the refrence to my notes, this was about the history of the art, not the fist itself.

--they r linked & can't b broken ... u cont. 2 prove u know nothing ... plz stop ... i'm convinced

Ask your grandmother for some spelling lessons.

--ask ur mommy 4 a name ... here - let me help ... i name u susie ... okey dokey sissy boy?

To answer the only question that made sense, I studied under GM Henry "Poo" Yee

--we don't know him ... don't know chickensh*it kung fu ... got 2 b ur hand tho ... thanx 4 the answers susie

[Merryprankster]

yuan,

I think that as long as the dialectic is used to simplify rather than complicate, then Occam's Razor need not cut so often (or well) ;)

Wonderful tool, that one...

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Yuan,

Familial inheritance of a cultural system is in itself no gurantee of quality of transmission - just as you say.

Problems arising from that are easier to 'hide' in a large and widely spread art. In Hakka systems - being so tight knit between themselves - reputations are actually harder to maintain than to hide. (Wood and Tree's analogy).

My Si-Fu is known as 'The Man' (Ah-Lien Gore/Lee-Lien Gore) for the Lee family by the Hakka community in the Uk - which extends beyond Tong-Long into Bak-Mei and Lung-Ying (Dragon) amongst others.

As for the dialectic yes anything can be overly applied hence the need for demonstrable as well as dialectical reasoning. A physical dialectic along the lines of Hegel, gives both in a martial arts context.

Information theory is a useful model, and can link transcendent idealism (Plato's notion of 'form') thru Aristotle to immanence - also a link to Jame's 'neutral monism' as the 'stuff' that links the ideal and the material. Genetics as an analogy and a demonstrable example works well, and links too to General Systems Theory - another perspective on the organisation of information.

Regards,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

Regarding William Tsang's son, as I understand it no non Chinese at all. But, can't be 100% certain. As for GM Lee-Lien, his own three son's are half English. He has no racist position, but, he does things properly by attitude and dedication. As for Ho-Sing he had many non-Chinese in his last generation of students. Eddie Berry was the senior of them. He is private, doesn't teach much, my very close friend and brother these 29 years now.

I am the best 'known' publicly re Ho-Sing's hand. Others have it to varying degree's. Eddie Berry in my opinion was the best natural fighter of all of them from Ho-Sing's last generation. He also has a practical intelligence which allows the art to live within him. From the Chinese Master's, my name is the most closely associated and recognised with Ho-Sing's hand. I am also disciple to GM Lee himself.

I teach Ho-Sing's art and also that of my Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

[Ginger Fist]

Regarding William Tsang's son, as I understand it no non Chinese at all.

--old ways still in place but the old reasons r no longer valid ... pity

As for GM Lee-Lien, his own three son's are half English. He has no racist position, but, he does things properly by attitude and dedication.

--good 4 him ... attitiude & dedication r good words ... does merit thru hard work over time mean the same as attitude & dedication? is there a test for attitude - dedication?

As for Ho-Sing he had many non-Chinese in his last generation of students.

--that's a good thing ... r they still around? any in america?

I am the best 'known' publicly re Ho-Sing's hand.

--is ? is known to the public different from ? is known in private? it's ok if u can't say

From the Chinese Master's, my name is the most closely associated and recognised with Ho-Sing's hand.

--mmmmm ... might have answered the ? above ... do u mean the chinese - hakka community recognized masters?

I am also disciple to GM Lee himself.

--be4 or after the passing of ho-sing?

I teach Ho-Sing's art and also that of my Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

--can u say the differences between the 2 hands?

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

I am known and acknowledged by the Chinese community as holding the art as taught and practiced by Ho-Sing. This is so for the Hakka Tong-Long and also for non-Hakka, and non-Hakka style traditional Chinese Si-Fu in the Liverpool UK community - also now more widely spread. I have the support also of Eddie Berry Dai-Si-Hing under Ho-Sing's last teachings, and, Si-Fu James Ho, son of Master Ho-Fong, brother of Master Ho-Sing, the last blood Hakka extant in Ho-Sing's family.

GM Lee-Lien I met after Ho-Sing's passing. He visited my school in company with Lee-Yin-Sing disciple Paul Lee (Lee-Po) Master Lee-Po watched my teachings and said, 'You move just like Ho-Sing did' and accepted my learning straight away. Grandmaster Lee noted the differences with his hand, but, acknowledged that it came from his Father's teachings and then taught me as 'Si-Bok' until 2000 when he accepted me as his disciple & nominated co-successor with Andy-Liu-Kin-Ming, as well as his three sons.

I am extremely fortunate, indeed blessed to be so accepted. It is a great responsibilty.

My personal position is that GM Lee's son's should succeed fully and if I am still extant at the appropriate time, I will support them in this, as I have made known to Lee-Si-Mo, their Mother, and wife to Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

It is appropriate for the art to be kept by a blood Hakka. I am honoured enough as it is and seek nothing more than I have achieved already in terms of personal ambition.

There are Lee-Yin-Sing Pai in the USA. More recently tham these blood Hakka, a representative has been appointed for GM Lee, and also for Ho-Sing's hand, who is not Hakka, but accepted fully nevertheless.

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

Re differences in hands:

It is very dificult to describe in words. However, GM Lee has the original hand as taught by his Father Lee-Yin-Sing. Ho-Sing's is changed, but within parameters that are accepted norms within Lee-Yin-Sing's Pai. Others have changed the hand as the art has taken on their personality and character.

GM Lee's hand is the 'original' from Lee-Yin-Sing. It is also more extensive in content.

Broadly, Ho-Sing's hand is characterised by more emphasis on shoulder derived Tan-Ging, and a preference for a floating bridge and leaking hand.

[yuanfen]

Steve R:sez;As for the dialectic yes anything can be overly applied hence the need for demonstrable as well as dialectical reasoning. A physical dialectic along the lines of Hegel, gives both in a martial arts context.

Information theory is a useful model, and can link transcendent idealism (Plato's notion of 'form') thru Aristotle to immanence - also a link to Jame's 'neutral monism' as the 'stuff' that links the ideal and the material. Genetics as an analogy and a demonstrable example works well, and links too to General Systems Theory - another perspective on the organisation of information.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A frank opinion Steve: The above name dropping of folks with quite different epistemologies I suggest does not make "public" sense , though it may to you. It involves jumping from model to model and forcing it on incomplete information at least in net
conversations at least about kung fu..

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Yuan,

It's about deep structure similarities between superficially different persectives - that are actually complementary if not isomorphic.

In plain English they sum up.

Point taken of course about the language/ideational presentation, but as you imply, we all bring our respective backgrounds to this metaphorical 'table' of debate on traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

That is one aspect of debate that I find very informative.

Steve.

[Ginger Fist]

I am known and acknowledged by the Chinese community as holding the art as taught and practiced by Ho-Sing.

--that covers it ... thanx ... r u known by another name? ok if u can't say

GM Lee-Lien I met after Ho-Sing's passing. He visited my school in company with Lee-Yin-Sing disciple Paul Lee (Lee-Po) Master Lee-Po watched my teachings and said, 'You move just like Ho-Sing did' and accepted my learning straight away.

--yipes!!!! 1 hellified group 2 perform be4 ... loads of pressure - & no bullsh*it pc to spare ur feelings if u su(k

then taught me as 'Si-Bok' until 2000 when he accepted me as his disciple & nominated co-successor with Andy-Liu-Kin-Ming, as well as his three sons.

--kewl beans ... u r the only gweilo we've heard of getting there ... maybe hope 4 others - maybe not ... time will tell

I am extremely fortunate, indeed blessed to be so accepted. It is a great responsibilty.

--u said it bub ... responsibility? more like cross 2 bear ... many eyes on u 4 sure ... some watch hoping u do well - others watch hoping u fail

My personal position is that GM Lee's son's should succeed fully and if I am still extant at the appropriate time, I will support them in this, as I have made known to Lee-Si-Mo, their Mother, and wife to Grandmaster Lee-Lien.

--true attitude ... most would gloat & try 2 hold on ... most have no idea ? it means 2 be lineage holder ... justa puta big 'ol bullseye on yer chest thar pardna

It is appropriate for the art to be kept by a blood Hakka.

--true attitude also ... it is hakka ... but should not lock every1 else out ... plenty of room 4 those that qualify ... the reasons of old r no longer valid

I am honoured enough as it is and seek nothing more than I have achieved already in terms of personal ambition.

--can't go no higher ... u shot 4 the stars & hit 'em ... even those very fortunate usually only land on the moon

There are Lee-Yin-Sing Pai in the USA. More recently tham these blood Hakka, a representative has been appointed for GM Lee, and also for Ho-Sing's hand, who is not Hakka, but accepted fully nevertheless.

--here? where?

It is very dificult to describe in words.

--can't really b formed in2 words ... skill is action

However, GM Lee has the original hand as taught by his Father Lee-Yin-Sing. Ho-Sing's is changed, ... Others have changed the hand as the art has taken on their personality and character.

--yes!!! thas right!!! seeds remain constant ... all else is personal preference

GM Lee's hand is the 'original' from Lee-Yin-Sing. It is also more extensive in content.

--took that from ur last post ... hakka hands - hakka weapons

Broadly, Ho-Sing's hand is characterised by more emphasis on shoulder derived Tan-Ging, and a preference for a floating bridge and leaking hand.

--okey dokey ... high eyebrow 4 sure ... floating bridge fu(ks up most people ... nothing 2 work against - with ... leaking is plenty hell 2 ... where ever they r - they get hit where they came from ... lose-lose situation 4 the opponent 4 sure

--very good answers mr. steven t. richards ... u have given me much ... thanx ... my place on this or any forum soon draws 2 a close ... 1 - 2 more ?s ... maybe - maybe not

[Steven T. Richards]

Gingerfist,

I'm probably known by a whole list of unpleasant names in certain quarters. Sadly, if it's true that a man may be judged by the quality of his enemies, then there isn't much down in my favour;)

Yes, GM Lee-Lien teaches Hakka fist and weapons, but, his LYS is also more extensive: he is his Fathers son.

The floating bridge and leaking hand skills are GM Lee's too. Ho-Sing emphasised them earlier in his teaching that perhaps GM Lee.

The first Roads build up the power chain, then progressively take on a 'yin' aspect with the floating bridge (with stable root) and leaking hand. Highest Roads are truly internal.

All is available without restriction except by character and determination - thru pressure testing.

Regards,

Steve.

[Ginger Fist]

I'm probably known by a whole list of unpleasant names in certain quarters. Sadly, if it's true that a man may be judged by the quality of his enemies, then there isn't much down in my favour

--yesireebob ... most people who turn out as enemies r such becuz they su*ck sh*it ... petty - comes 2 mind these days ... trying 2 hide ? they don't even know ... poseurs ... wannabes ... $$$ grubbing w*hores ... mental defective types power tripping on some bullsh*it they made up & came 2 believe ... yet more proof the old reasons r no longer valid ... merit not birthright is the correct way

Yes, GM Lee-Lien teaches Hakka fist and weapons, but, his LYS is also more extensive: he is his Fathers son.

--okey dokey ... sure

The floating bridge and leaking hand skills are GM Lee's too. Ho-Sing emphasised them earlier in his teaching that perhaps GM Lee.

--mmmm ... we heard not so much thru the shoulder in lys hand as ? u said about ho-sing ... could b misunderstanding by me ... no matter ... sharp angles 4 sure

The first Roads build up the power chain, then progressively take on a 'yin' aspect with the floating bridge (with stable root) and leaking hand. Highest Roads are truly internal.

--highest performance of hakka hand is always internal ... might b true 4 other arts 2 ... must go that way 4 progress 2 b made past the age of youth ... in the past it was necessary 2 have killing hands well in2 advanced age ... the hand was created & evolved 2 meet that need

All is available without restriction except by character and determination - thru pressure testing.

--u r a very honorable pai mr. steven t. richards ... it has been my pleasure 2 have met u if only by electronic forum ... i have ? i need & this is my last post ... if u celebrate it - merry Christmas 2 u & ur family ... good bye & good fortune always

[jon]

"i have ? i need & this is my last post ..."
Its a shame that your leaving the boards, some of us have really enjoyed your imput even if at times it was a little odd ;)
I hope you will pop in from time to time anyway.
Say hello via email if you get a chance.
Best of luck in your training and your mission.


P.S i 'think' you gave me some advice a while ago, not dead sure it was you. If not disregard this... That advice turned out very well and i wanted to say thanks.
Merry Christmas
Jon

[brucelee2]

Ginger fist,

i'm curious about some things. First, it says in your posts that you're 27 and you train 9 hours a day. Do you go to school or work? I'm curious as to how you manage that. Also, if you train that much why do you keep calling yourself a 'lazy bag of....'? I think you also said in your posts that your mother/grandmother forced you to train, at least initially. Are they still forcing you or are you training voluntarily now? How do you feel about training- do you enjoy it? Do you resent your mother/grandmother for forcing you to train? It also seems from some of your posts that your grandmother physically abused you- how do you feel about her? Also, have you had much opportunity to test your art on the streets? Finally, you made some comments/comparisons between your art and hung gar. Would you care to elaborate on your opinion of hung gar? Also, have you been exposed to bagua, tai chi, hsing i, and if so, what is your opinion of these arts? thanks-

[JF Springer]

Steve, thanks for the information on Edward and I'm glad to read that the Iron Ox Pai is doing well. Perhaps if you ask him Edward would agree to join this forum, or in the alternative, designate a student to speak on behalf of the Iron Ox Pai.

It would be solid if Scott would join in as well. IMO, it's always good to have someone from Mr. Gin Foon Mark's family involved in discussions centering on SPM. No one can legitimately dispute the hands of Mark Foon.

Since I'm on this track I might contact Bruce to see if he has the time to join in. As the "door" for Mr. Henry Poo Yee Bruce is always a good guy to have in a discussion regarding SPM and his presence rounds out the Lum Sang Pai.

As you are on that side of the "big pond" how about contacting Paul Whitrod and asking him to join us?

I'm thinking it would be a good thing if we could all get together once or twice a year, eat too much good food, share some kung fu, and get to know each other better.

We are the next generation and the current lineage holders aren't getting any younger. In the near future some, if not most, will be closing their hands to all save for a very select few, if even that.

Seems like a good time to forge some solid relationships in the spirit of mutual respect, support and cooperation. Such a thing would help facilitate a stable and orderly changing of the guard when the time comes. An informal association of sorts would also eliminate interference from any interloper as the primary collective Pai members would all ready know the real players in the various families.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jack,

Seems like a great idea to me.

Regards,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Hello Steve:

I'll E-mail Bruce and Scott. If you get a chance to contact Edward and Paul that should do it. Happy Holidays to you and your family.

[Steven T. Richards]

My pleasure,

Cheers,

Steve.

[mantis-1]

Interesting you say that the second and third forms used to be one and was split up into two later on. As when we do form training sifu often changes the two forms so that maybe we start with Saam jin yui kui and then finish with Saam bo pai kui or reverse. Whether this is done in any of the more advanced forms i'm not sure he's back in april so i will ask.

[Andrew]

The forms are quite similar, so it doesn't surprise me
that they are alternated. In my opnion, whats important
are the lessons or the theories the forms are trying to
teach rather than the actual form. Its interesting to
know this as it shows the chronology of the system.

Just as is interesting to note that alot of southern
systems, not just Hakka systems use the three step
format of Sam bo gin. Before I studied Hung gar I was
exposed to Pak mei. Which also uses the same 'format'
as Sam bo gin, I use this term loosely, in the sense that
the step, shoot, retract format is followed. What is even
more interesting is the parrallels with Fujian White Crane
that Sam bo gin has. But at the moment, this is just
an interesting correlation.

Andrew

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Andrew,

Seasons Greetings.

Interesting point about the three step format. Some in Lam-Tong-Long (SPM) hold the three step formula to be esoteric and essential to the Mantis art. For some, the Som-Bo-Gin form is the foundation of the art - for others not at all necessary or even important.

My view having seen many versions of forms that carry the title Three Step Arrow, is that it is a generic name for a collection of forms that are different in most respects except for (a) their name, and (b) the three step formula.

My Masters Pai do not teach or practice a SBG set. However, the three step 'section' makes up part of Lee-Yin-Sing's long form.
The 'Fik-Sau' set, as taught by late GM Yeung-Kum's Pai from Wong-Yuk-Gong's Jook-Lum has the three step formula, and is taught as the foundation set - there being no SBG in that Pai either.

The above links with the discussion between ourselves and Giles (pazmoot) about Fik-Sau earlier on this thread.

The roots run deep and diversify, but I'm sure that the principles and essence breeds true between all Pai, without prejudice.

Regards,

Steve.

[jon]

Would anyone like to share some of there training in there respective spm pai?
Is there a lot of drilling? How about sparring?
Do you guys do much conditioning, if so what do you condition?
Is there Chi-gung in spm?
What are some of the weapons in your spm pai's?

Just answer what you see fit and leave anything you dont feel confortable answering.
Trying to keep a flow of information up is all;)
Hope everyone had a great christmas:D
Jon

[JF Springer]

Steve -

Your remarks concerning the formula similarities in the Fik-Sau and Som Bo Gin kuens are, of course, right on point. The first time I saw the Fik-Sau set the sequential progression and repeating pattern similarities were obvious. This was made even more clear upon running the Fik Sau set several hundred times over a couple of days.

IMO, the same can be said to a certain degree with regard to the Fan-Sau kuen of Ho-Sing. To me, rather than a point of contention and strife the similarities serve to confirm the richness of Jook Lum Tong Long as the seeds in the sets noted above are the same and present.

There is diversity in the expression of the seeds and this is one critical element that marks the Jook Lum Tong Long hands as a living art form, albeit an art form based on killing hands.

Those who profess to subscribe to the false notion that only one formulation is “right” or “best” should be ignored as they are either total idiots or attempting to manipulate people for financial gain.

Ultimately it all comes down to application in a real world combat environment.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jack,

Agreed on the three step formula. Even Lee-Yin-Sing's Long 13 Roads form incorporates the three step format. In its basic (and openly public) first 4 Roads, Follwing its opening, Road one has a total of five steps, three forward, one back (to position of step two) and then a final fifth step forward to step position three, prior to the first turn.

Agreed too on the seeds of SPM and the diversification of those seeds with a common root.

As you say real world application is the key.

Jon,

Come back to you later on your questions. Many thanks.

Regards,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Hopefully other Pai will reply as I can only speak for my own.

Two man 'doi-chong' and sensitivity 'mor-kiu' (feeling the bridge) exercies are employed but are considered for beginners only.

Drills become san-sau and application driven as problem solving and information-processing combat training - under pressure. In other words they become 'live' as opposed to staged drills.

There is the argument that staged repetitive drills are necessary for the establishment of skill. A agree, it is just a matter of when and for how long. After a while the learning curve flattens out at best from compliant partner training - and may even dip. Overly used, it can produce a seductive comfort zone - not at all relevant to reality.

In terms of sensitivity skills, Lee-Yin-Sing and Ho-Sing's Pai's develop a floating bridge and leaking hand structure, with detonating spring-shock power passing thru the 'target'.

Fitness and speed training drills are used, as well as cognitive mapping, but, these are much more refined than the structurally slower 'doi-chong' regimens. Countdown punches in sets of 1,000 with wrist weights, timed for speed, target mapping combinations,
very aggressive bursts of 'whole body ging' and such like are routine

Re conditioning, this is used, through doi-chong's, wooden dummies, bags of various kinds, iron bar rolling etc etc. Again, though this is basic and after a while becomes a 'filler' for not progressing to higher skills.

Re Sparring, this is from the get go and involves the building of a cognitive 'battle computer' that refines real-time reactions and information processing with the application of approprite technique. This may not sound 'traditional' but that is due to my use of language. It is Lee-Yin-Sing's way to push students from the off.

Sparring has to have context. In our Pai it ranges from light bridge and skill development to gloved and padded up full contact.
My students are routinely taught to fight hard with head butts and biting techniques as they arise oportunistically. Real world fighters will appreciate the seamless expression of the animal and the cultivated in street combat.

Chi-Gung is routine in SPM. Some have it as separate sets, some integrate it fully into the form(s) as understanding develops. The same for the Dip-Gwut (rib power) in LYS it is never decontextualised, always fully intgrated so that it is part of the applied power chain. To train it outside of application is to train something separate - not actual use of the method. Sports science and biomechanics has shown that abstract skills do not transfer accross they need to be integrated to work well.
The same for chi-Gung, real understanding is integration and synthesis. The refined simplicity of this is real mastery.

Weapons: SPM Pai have different uses of these depending on lineage and teaching. Many draw from the pre-SPM Hakka arts.

In LYS, the eyebrow-pole, long-pole, Kwan-Do, dan-do sword, spear, Iron Ruler (Tid-Jek or 'sai) are the basic weapons. All are taught initially as short two man sets (weaponed doi-chongs) - then the principles are broken down and applied, before the skills are refined in longer single man weapon sets. eventually the empahsis on 'set' is dicarded as the skills become manifest in the physical form of the student.

In empty hand practice, this is a 'communion' with the essence of the art - and a spiritual experience.

Best Regards,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Steve - A wonderfully lucid exposition concerning certain elements of skill acquisition in SPM. It is refreshing to read a pure content post.

If I may, I would like to expand on a couple of your points. Doi-chong training is kept to a minimum for a number of reasons firmly grounded in human kinesiology among other models.

Specifically, the loading of the lever as it changes angle is far too slow to have much in the way of real world skill transfer.

Additionally, because of the relative slow speed of movement the stabilizers of the attending joints are required to activate and operate at levels, both in intensity of contraction and duration, that in no way approximates real world requirements.

This unreal arrangement carries over into the antagonistic muscle groups as well.

Therefore, prolonged doi-chong training creates and reinforces neurological patterns that are impediments to skill acquisition from practice. The doi-chong patterns are an impediment in that at any juncture in the paths that interfaces, parallels, or crosses the practiced skill based movement path a node of dissonance exists.
There is a splitting of the desired pathway signal or a drop in amplitude of the signal traveling the desire pathway as some energy is expended over riding the doi-chong signal.

The above was well known to the ancients who expressed it in the nomenclature unique to their time, culture and art. For those of us not born to this heritage there are some western science models that prove useful for determining our practice and training schedules.

Your use of the "Battle Computer" model is also an excellent choice. We humans have the capacity to "auto" or "self-correct" across a broad spectrum if we have access to the right information. It is through repeated exposure to incoming forces that we are able to intelligently and correctly select out what works best for us as individuals.

This is a far cry from the eclectic and comports perfectly with the traditional.

There are many possible solutions within SPM to the problem(s) presented by any incoming force. At least in part, the solution sets define a given Pai.

Specifically, each SPM Pai have structures arranged in some order of priority or preference that correctly accounts for a given force. The order or priority speaks to the tactical wedded to the technical aspects of the system.

The task in part is to engage in repeated bouts of non-cooperative contact in order to discover what within the solution set best fits the individual's genetic, emotional and psychological make-up. It is, after all, martial ART, and not martial CRAFT. IMO, freedom of creative self-expression is the standard for determining skill level, not a goal.

IMO, an additional element that needs to be present is the real threat, or potential, for injury. Setting the Psycho-Emotional stage is critical as the ability to successfully navigate through the often cited "adrenaline dump" is a learned behavior.

Contrary to some New Agers extinguishing or becoming desensitized to this response is not the right way to go about it. IMO, becoming "acclimatized" is the desired outcome as the tremendous surge of strength and power is an ally I always like to have with me in battle.

Finally, from a systemic perspective, in the absence of repeated exposure to real, or near real, world speed and distance of encounter there is no way for the human form to become accustomed to the often times chaotic and rapid movement patterns associated with real world conflict.

The "Battle Computer" model you employ has the same caveat as any computer system, namely, GIGO.

It is a shaping process and the sooner one is properly prepared to set foot on this path the better.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jack,

Brilliant stuff based on your very real world experience, sound education and solid traditional Chinese martial arts background.

Edifying for us all, not least for me personally, it gives room for further reflection and improvement in my training, teaching and development.

Very different from 'attack and defence ocurring within the length of a cow lying down' , but, the deep structure meaning between the metaphorical/traditional and the scientific is the same.

It works for me...

Many thanks,

Steve.

[jon]

Thank you both for your insights and experience.
I really like the way you have used thought processing as a major teaching tool.
Im starting to see a few similaritys between the way you teach and the way im taught, though obviously in different arts.
Im enjoying this discussion, its been very interesting and has really opened my eyes as to whats out there in the SPM world.
Still im hoping maybe some other pai's would share some experience. Nothing you dont feel comfortable with but maybe just some of your own opinions and exposure.
Thanks again to everyone taking part:)
BTW anyone notice we broke the 2000 views mark last night! Thats a LOT of people reading about SPM:)
We should try and do the same for some of the other lesser known systems.

[JF Springer]

Thank you for the kind words. Your observation that what Steve has posted is reflective of how you are taught is no doubt right on point.

What Steve has done is provide a parallel framework to a certain oral tradition that tends to be more accessible to the western mind. His ability to do this is reflective of his high eyebrow skill and first rate intellect. It is also why I refer to him as my Si-Hing without reservation.

Going back to the point regarding the merits of the respective SPM Pai there are many "right" ways of doing something.

Specifically, what has been posted to date is neither novel nor new. IMO, if someone had the proper instruction and followed the advice of their Sifu to the letter they would get just as far in their system of choice without "knowing" any of this stuff. They would “realize” these things and most likely on an intuitive level. It works either way.

These types of posts may be of some value to those who have all ready traveled this road as it provides a vehicle for exploring their method for possible areas of improvement.

Once a person passes through the matrix of their system pure force of will and long hours of sweaty practice for the sake of practice tends to yield diminishing returns. It becomes necessary to identify where some appreciable degree of improvement might be made and focus on these areas. Everything else kind of falls into the "maintenance" category.

The other point I would like to make is that everything posted to date is contained in the poetic formulae associated with JL SPM. Poetry has a long history of being the medium of choice for passing along information within the oral tradition.

Hopefully, members of the Iron Ox, Chow Gar, and Chu Gar Pai will post some stuff explaining how they view certain aspects of their system.

Within the overall SPM family there is great diversity born from the same seeds. For those who seek the truth of the matter as it applies to them diversity is a richness that is cherished by all and opposed by none.

IMO, those who claim to have “the” way are either delusional fools or self-aggrandizing idiots and should be studiously avoided.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Thanks for your kind remarks.

I hope that other Pai will post too. Perhaps its because of the festive season and we can all look forward to more input from SPM practitioners of all levels of experience and opinion.

Jack has made kind remarlks too, but, for myself I have no problem in acknowledging anothers skill, knowledge and experince - and Jack has all three - in many areas greater than my own.

Jack raises a fundamental point re the variety of ways that SPM can be practiced and the 'form' that it can take.

For example, in watching GM Henry Poo-Yee, I can see the highest levels of refinement and skill. Same too for GM Mark Foon, for Chow-Gar Tong-Long GM Ip-Shui, and my Si-Fu GM Lee-Lien.
All very different from one another in structure, energy etc, but all authentic SPM.

It seems that the principles - which are 'transcendent' in a martial art, need to manifest themselves in the 'person' of a practitioner to become physically 'real'. As we all come to the arts with our unique physical being, psychology, character and broader background - the principles will be expressed through that individuality, and therefore appear sometimes to be superficially different to those same principles as expressed by another practitioner.

Variety and diversification have always been good for any 'system', biolgical or cultural.

What should be questioned is the reducing tendency in some people to limit the definition of a whole group or family of martial arts Pai to but ONE version of its expression.

Where this occurs, there is often a claim made about 'tradition' and conservatism - purity even. If this arises from an individual or group who are non-Chinese (or non-Hakka in say the SPM sphere) then that suspiscion should be doubled. Often, far from being conservative, these people are 'prospective' in having a very definite goal in mind for themselves - namely the appropriation of the art to them, and to them alone. One such person posted some time ago on another board, and used the metaphor of fruit rolling away from the tree, and therefore being separated from nourishment by the roots. Obviously a deeply flawed metaphor. Fruit are round precisely in order to spread away from the tree, and to avoid their own attempts at growth being sucked out by the tree's roots.

If middle generation disciples can allow themselves to speak out on forums (better still if elders can) then the more junior practitioners of our arts (who are the very future of TCMA) can enjoy contact with experience and learning that can only help them to flourish.

Knowledge and skill brings with it a responsibility to teach (IMHO), but also a responsibility to be accepting of others learning. If it is not, then we set a bad example, either by act, or by omission - as in the case of perhaps not utilising the media to communicate our art to our friends and brothers.

If those who hold responsible positions, authentically, do not do this, then the field will be left to others who would utilise the media to rot many hundreds of years of martial arts cultural development, and replace it with their own self-centred and self-serving agenda.

I do not believe that it is enough simply to ignore those persons who would damage martial arts - they must be resisted - and the best way to do that is to bring things out fully into the open, without prejudice and with an open and accepting heart.

[JF Springer]

Steve - The fruit metaphor is interesting. Staying with it, as the fruit falls off of the tree and rolls some distance from the parent tree the seed contained within produces yet another fruit tree. This tree then becomes part of the orchard or grove. A peach seed does not produce a plum tree and what springs forth from the seed is but part of the greater whole.

I looked for the "peach tree" post and couldn't find it. Regardless, he/she is undoubtedly an idiot in pursuit of something they can never have.

What all groups that lay claim to the false title of "The ..." continually fail to realize is that they haven't the capacity for surviving past one generation. Once the leader dies the greater whole absorbs, or outright rejects, what is left over and scatters it to the four winds.

Historically, the only way around this has been to break clean with the root source and openly declare a new system. Not really an option in SPM as it is first and foremost a part of Hakka culture.

There are always going to be those who crave and need attention above that which their skill level merits. That's what the school house is for. Namely, a place where students of miscreants can provide the emotional "strokes" required by their depraved teachers.

As long as they keep it in-house the damage is confined to the students following their "false prophet" so to speak. IMO, a sad but true situation.

Then again, the standard caveat of "Let the buyer beware" has always applied in such matters. Or, as I've heard it expressed by someone I greatly respect "Sometimes you get what you paid for and sometimes you just get taken."

[Bao Jong]

Has anyone experienced the later soft trainings in Chow Gar? Info please.

[likuei]

JF Springer and Steven T. Richards,

This thread has a good viewing about southern preying mantis. Looking at it objectively though theyre is a lot of talk but very little said about SPM as an art.

You both mostly talk about veiled politics all the while calling for openess. You call for openenss but never come right out with it?

Your posts are repititive in that you say the same thing over and over about "false prophets" and "claims of tradition or purity" and "those who crave attention".

Yet, When I look at it objectively its only you tooting your own horns even then about meaningless and repititive rhetoric nothing about SPM really. It really seems like you seek the most attention but I have yet to read much useful.

I'm not interested in your opinions of other people but I might be interested in your opinions or experience in SPM. So if you want to play my big brothers stop talking like little brothers.

Say what you mean if you have something to say. But if you really want to play "big brothers" to us all then why don't you teach us something more than veiled politics and contentious ideas? What about some serious discussion about the art. Don't you train or teach? Cant' you express that in a useful way?

Now don't misunderstand, I;m only posting my opinion, everyone's got one and I guess they all count.

I can almost bet what kind of response I'm going to get? Anyone want to place odds on it?

[likuei]

Hey JF and Steven, one more thing guys. Its easy to see you support each other with praise for each others post like "exceptionally lucid" and "brilliant post" being passed one to another tit for tat.

Thats good i guess, but objectively It seems you somtimes get lost in the commaraderie more than the art.

Like reading above where you explain away the necessity of "doi chong" or "sombogin as a form". I don't know if thats just cause you don't have much doijong or the three step form but I find it interesting that all styles of SPM, Chuk Lum, Chu and Chow and Ox style all have much of these and yet you would tell us that it is unimportant. Can you explain in useful terms your position? I was under the impression that Sombogin was the foundation and two man training was the road to SPM.

And what about the numerous styles from Fujian which all contain much doijong and three three step form? I suppose they could all be wrong about the necissity of those skills and you could be right? But objectively it seems a bit unbalanced that all SPM and many other related styles have doijong and sombogin but you don't find it important?

Looking for objective openess about the training. Please refrain from all other replies.

[JF Springer]

Steve - We'll we knew it had to happen sooner or later. A gutless no name coward with no lineage, but a real macho job of handling horses. What a joke.

Rather than simply refute each and every error inundated "point" this loser attempts to make I'm using a new feature on the forum and simply blanking him out.

Good way to get rid of people whose Mommy didn't even give them a name.

For all Trolls, I'm easy to find, don't waste band width trying to flame me, just bring yourself on over and show me what you got.

[jon]

If you have a look at the start of the thread you will notice im the one who orginaly put this thread up. I did so becouse i wanted to have a thread where people could discuss a bit of there training in spm and maybe shed some light on what there system is like.
I also made it VERY clear that people should post what ever they feel comfortable about and not post what they dont.
This was an open ended request and i personaly feel its been met very well.
Before people like Mr Richards spoke out i had very little idea of what spm was like. Now i feel like ive got a light idea of what they do. This is all i asked for, I never asked for an indepth look at what they do as i know this is not possible.
This thread however also is serving the purpose of providing different spm practioners with a way of comparing what they train with what another pai focuses on.

"very little said about SPM as an art."


There are several posts which discuss power generation, forms, weapons and teaching methods.
Im not trying to argue and anyones opinion is welcome. Just please dont discourage people who are doing a great service from continuing.
I for one have read every post in this thread and am enjoying the back and forth between JF Springer and Steven T. Richards.
Please continue guys your doing well:D

[likuei]

Jon and gentlemen, My point is made exactly in JF's reply and in your own words Jon, This Thread has 128 posts of which you said "several" in other words, not many, a few, very little have to do with anything other than idle chatter tit for tat.

My posts above were not meant to discourage anyone but rather encourage positive posts about SPM, not veiled politics and idle gossip about nameless prophets. etc, etc. etc. which leads those with little understanding of SPM to no good feeling, especially as in the case of such important issues as the importance of doijong two man training and the form sombogin for example.

All the sudden someone has a question or difference of opinion and what? Look at the insults hurled.

Who would want to learn from someone who teaches what JF Springer spouted above? Or even associate with his group? He made my point exactly. Obviously not much positive discussion can be made.

[Steven T. Richards]

likieu,

You are way off point. Check my posts again. Nobody said that my or anybody elses views were objectively true. However, if somone raises a description about an particular approach to SPM that neccesarily means highlighting differences as well as similarities otherwise there is nothing at all to be learned or gained friom debate.

As for a critique of doi-chong that has been oferred and supported rationally as a debating point. I am well aware that others have a different perspective and that is to be enjoyed as a learning experience. At least from Jack Springers perspective (and my own) we offerred some rationale for that view.
Would you care to do likewise? As for the Three Step Formula, you are off point there too. There are discussions on its place in various arts/Pai in above posts; from different Pai, including a comparative position taken between SPM Pai and an alternatively named form, which although not called SBG, has the same formula.

Perhaps your emotions have gotten in the way of you reading the posts accurately.

The 'political' question was not vieled it was openly described. It is a sad fact that these things exist. Some people are literally in fear of aggressive partisan political groups in martial arts and as a result debate is stiffled. That is wrong and should be resisted.

My point is that the only way to learn from one another is to be as open as possible - and that there are some who don't like that and would do whatever they can to prevent it.

Why not make a contribution and you can have the debate that you claim that you want. Otherwise it is little wonder that you may be suspected of trolling.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Bao-Jong,

I think that it's called 'Silk Reeling Hand's' - not sure though.
Andrew, who has posted above, also Pazmoot, may be able to answer - both have Chow-Gar Tong-Long training.

I'll try to get 'Aussie John' to post, he has much knowledge in CG and I'm sure that he could help.

Regards,

Steve.

[jon]

Im sorry but you just did something i really HATE, i find it both rude and petty when people attempt to twist obvious words.

"My point is made exactly in JF's reply and in your own words Jon, This Thread has 128 posts of which you said "several" in other words, not many, a few, very little have to do with anything other than idle chatter tit for tat."

You say my own words then go on to quote ONE of them!
Come on really, if your going to say "in your own words Jon" then at least use more than just the one word "several". This doesnt prove your point it just makes you look like your not in full control of your sences and are grasping at straws.
My point was that both Mr Richards and JF Springer had given very detailed information on there pai and yet you still accuse them personaly of... ill quote you exactly...
"You both mostly talk about veiled politics all the while calling for openess. You call for openenss but never come right out with it?

YOU havent given ANY information on yourself on your studies so what makes you think you have the right to accuse others of comming right out with it?

Troll...

[JF Springer]

Let's remain focused on the issues Jon's original post raised and not get side tracked with nameless, no lineage, horse handlers.

The Troll's question with regard to who would want to learn from me says it all. He/she hasn't the guts to even post their name, or any verifiable personal information for that matter, and refuses to simply come see me in order to learn the truth of the matter for him/herself.

The Troll's insistence on holding Som Bo Gin and the 2 Man set(s) as being the root of all JL SPM skill readily identifies his association and agenda.

The truth of the matter, to which I was privy long before their false prophet even got a smell of JL SPM, is simply this: SBG and the 2 Man set(s) represent initial indoctrination and transition platforms. They are held "sacred" by those who are outside the door and those who have never really been inside the door.

So much for Troll as by his own posts, as well as personal profile,
he is nobody who knows nothing and doesn't dare face me, hence a coward.

Jon, perhaps you would consider formulating some questions based on the mechanics of power generation using your most excellent system of Hung Gar as a model for comparison and contrast.

How real, authentic, traditional JL SPM generates, manifests, receives and issues force is considerably different as each system's way of producing power is intimately linked to its technical structures and tactical approach to real world combat.

[likuei]

JF and Steven,
Honestly, you may impress those who have no SPM and know little of it, but what you've said here mostly goes against authentic SPM of every branch and its history.

That you don't know me puts me in a group with 95% of those here, so you can call me a troll along with all the rest. That doesn't say anything about me but it says everything about you. Obviously, your hakka teaching isnt yet complete, as you don't yet know what a horse handler is or does.

In example, JF you say, that two man training and sambochin is introduction and transitional. I would be interested to hear in any terms you choose what you consider "inner door". In my opinion you have been mislead by someone.

With personal experience in three branches of SPM and not in the USA and at the risk of sounding like you and sometimes Steven, I'll toot my own horn, I've been in Hakka doors you don't yet know exist. You don't know me and you don't know my teachers.

I am closed door and clearly all branches of SPM at the highest level are founded on Sambochin (call it what you like) and their highest teaching is two man training. In example, Chuk Lam Mantis has 108 a two man set (first and its dimmak 2 man training second), Chugar has a series of two man vital point doijongs in advanced training, Chowgar may have the most number of doijongs not only for various attacking but also for body strengthening. Ever heard of Lee Kwun, partner with Yip Sui in his book? His advanced training is all doijong. Just a few examples.

To say that sanshu or freehand "pressure testing" is high level SPM without a foundation to build upon is putting the cart before the horse. 99% of the time trainees who try to freehand without much training simply revert to brute force with little or no skill coming out. They simply don't know what to do and the result is one person holding out his hand while the other person applies one or more techniques. Obviously not useful training.

Chugar is an example where a number of chongs train muscle memory to react in attack, defend, counter attack in sequences of skill that use and return the partners power. Once the motions become automatic one may then freehand at any intensity and if equally skilled neither SPM partner can overcome but put someone with no experience or perhaps some other style and the natural skill of SPM comes out superior (usually).

There are not several ways of generating power in SPM there is only one way. Its a gentan ging from the ground up to the fingers. All else is just rhetoric of the same idea. The technical structure is not negotiable. Its the same in SPM as well as numbers of Fujian Chekiang Kiangsi styles.

Although I agree that tactical approaches vary from group to group I do also agree that the basic tactical approah of SPM is laid out in a Sambogin poem.

If you want to discuss the poem, In keeping with Hakka idea, if you know it then you start the poem and I'll finish it.

Here again you call for openenss but continue your veil of politics. PLEASE TELL US who is your false prophet? Perhaps you are the coward, as you called me, since you continue to make such veiled references? Speak up JF.

Steven, you said above, "My point is that the only way to learn from one another is to be as open as possible". As self proclaimed co-successor to a Hakka teacher I'm surprised to hear you say that as it goes against Hakka principle and family value. Why hasn't any of your Hakka brothers or teachers called out for such openess to learn more? We didn't see anything from your Co-successor-whys that? Does his opinion differ from yours?

My point for the board, is that usually in Hakka society those who speak dont know and those who know don't speak (not always the case). Why don't you see the senior Chinese from Steve's group, or Chuk Lam, Chu or Chow or Ox speaking out in magazines or newspapers or chat sites? ITs because thats looked down upon especially by Hakka.

I don't mind to post, my concern is that you cant really learn SPM from words to begin with. And when something useful and digestible is offered to those hungry, they eat it and then bite the hand that fed them. Thats why Hakka don't usually care if you know anything or not.

JF and Steven. Please do answer the questions.

[JF Springer]

I was forwarded a copy of the long winded Troll now claiming to be inside the door for 3 Pai. What a hoot!!!

He seeks answers to questions but provides none, even the basic ones. Specifically, his name and his socalled lineage.

The only question this loser wannabe has to answer is "When are you coming to cross hands with me, coward?"

[Water Dragon]

Could someone be so kind as to go into the Hakka mindset that promotes all of this secrecy? I know the basic history of what happened to the people, but, WOW it seems from the posts here the Hakka people just don't like anyone. That can't be correct, can it?

[yuanfen]

FWIW; IMO: The real old time Hakka i.e something like over 50 years old were generally quite secretive about their arts. The secrecy was a tool of survival. Briefly, the Hakkas were once up more in the north and were defenders of the Ming dynasty. As the Ming dynasty declined and the 17th century advance of the northern Manchus(Qing/Ching) southward began to take place the Hakkas moved south fighting rearguard actions along the way and still participating with other groups in resisting the Ching.
The Ching were brutal in putting down rebellions sometimes with the help of turncoats- including members of the "literati". hence Hakka insularity was part of their security. Add to this- as they settled in the south they were not always accepted by all the locals reinforcing their insularity. The literati snobs often looked down their noses at the Hakka in the social structure. But the Hakka survival is a story in itself. They had a tough work ethic
and migrated to other places even outside of China to Southeast and South Asia and many made good helping each other and still being wary of the outside world. So the true old time Hakka masters did not "completely" share their temple or family arts with other Cantonese. With time... nowadays folks claim entre into the Hakka world. These are empirical questions- not just matters of claim. Sure all kinds of folks practise arts influenced by the Hakkas in varying degrees.
and southerners and certainly not with non Chinese. In wing chun Paul Lam a student of Leung Sheung was/ is Hakka. He combined his personal knowledge of Hakka arts with what he learned in wing chun. He was one of the first to take wing chun to the UK. A friend of mine was his student. Lam went into food supply business but the business later failed due to "collectors".
He also quit teaching kung fu.
Some Hakkas lacking education went onto various businesses including eateries to depend on their own resourceful ness. Paul
lam had polio as an youth. he made up for it by developing unusual elbow power easily overpowering many athletic prima donnas that he faced. As you can gather from the discussions that there are some Hakka practitioners who don't bother with public discussions. With mixed marriages some of the insularity might change. But then sometimes forms of knowledge go to the grave with the knowledge holders. Life!

[Steven T. Richards]

likuei,

Firstly, I am not self-proclaimed. if I was I'd be shut down long ago.

Secondly, I am authorised by Lee-Yin-Sing's family to speak out on the net and in public on their behalf.

Thirdly, Som-Bo-Gin is not found in all branches of SPM, it is not in
Yeung-Kum's Pai in the UK, Yeung-Kum was the inheritor of Wong-Yuk-Gong. It isn't in LYS's Pai either. As I've posted elsewhere and earlier on this thread, there is no 'problem' with SBG, or with Chong's, simply that differences in emphasis exist between Pai over their imporatnce. SBG as a named set, differs enormously between Pai that use that nominalism, so much so that they are in effect different sets. The three step formula is however found in other Pai that do not use the name SBG - which has been discussed earlier in this thread - had you bothered to read it properly. If you claim to represent a Pai that thinks they(SBG and Chong's) have a central place thats fine, glad to hear your opinion. If, however, you claim that ALL SPM Pai place a similar central place on them, then you are mistaken.

Open discussion would allow these differences to be debated. My point about dogma is that it brokers no opposition or contradiction to itself - everything has to be 'like' it, or it isn't acceptable. Such an attitude does nothing for learning or friendship.

From the perspective of your Pai - and demonstrably, your understanding, your remarks about the sequencing and emphasis on learning are perfectly valid. I accept your differences with my learning, and will listen to them. If you cannot reciprocate that's fine too - you speak then clearly for your own attitude and position.

I've a long history in martial arts for a westerner, coming up to 36 years. I've seen the value of different ways of training and accept the ones you mention as being valid in their context. However, lack of experience of the other method simply means that it will be misunderstood - particularly if the approach to its value is reactionary, emotive and ignorant.

By all means open up and tell it how it is for you. I'll be very interested to hear about your training, experience and achievements. The only point at which I'd not welcome your opinions is if they become exemplary ignorrance. I've no time at all to waste on that.

If you have any doubts about me personally, come and see me. I do not hide, my contact details are available.

Kindest Regards,

Steve.

[Water Dragon]

Thanks Yuanfen. I don't think I'll ever understand the Chinese. Oh well, they've been good to me so far.

[Water Dragon]

Ya know guys, I don't do SPM, so I may be way off the mark here. but I always consider an art where everyone does basically the same thing but every school is a bit different a good thing. It indicates a living tradition to me. I get kinda skeptical when I see everyone doing something the exact same way.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Water Dragon,

You make a very valid point about a living tradition. Those that would say that there is only one (usually their) way to do things have the 'problem' of explaining the manifest diversity in lineages, forms, practice etc.

If their 'explanation' is to say that there is only one way (their way) and one Pai (their Pai) then that is a recipie for a strife born of stupidity.

I survived 13 years of front line Police work in part thru martial arts, but also in part through accepting diversity in culture/sub-culture and more broadly, humanity.

It is the easy option to slagg everyone else off - particularly if you are anonymous.

likieu,

If Hakka (gross genralisation) look down on internet forums, and you profess from your posts to be at the heart of things SPM, what are you doing posting?

My position as stated above many times and on other threads is that in order to mature people need to learn to communicate freely and openly.

BTW, if you wish I can introduce you to elder genartion Hakka Masters that don't do SBG, some teach chongs (I was put thru that, but my Chines brother was taught none). They have no problem with SBG, it just isn't in their teaching. Maybe you could explain to them that they aren't authentic, or do not know their culture.

Alternatievly, you might just try to learn constructively from difference.

[JF Springer]

Good over view presentation Joy. True to your academic, TCMA lineage, and real world experience as always.

A solid historical perspective is useful to a degree in trying to understand what Water Dragon has termed Hakka secrecy.

An additional consideration that might prove helpful in explaining the situation revolves around differences in culture based mindset.

Specifically, the Eastern mind processes information according to a different set of rules than those held by many/most Western people and vice versa. This isn’t meant as judgmental as both ways, and many other ways as well, are all equally valid.

In simple and broad terms the Western mind processes in a primarily linear, Aristotelian, fashion while the Eastern mental operations are more circular. It is not a matter of two people who possess different mindsets seeing or experiencing an event and eventually coming to the same conclusion(s) via a different path. It is a matter of difference in perception ranging from reception of initial stimulus to final processed conclusion or understanding.

A somewhat common occurrence among Westerner's who have had a long and reasonably open relationship with someone who is "pure blood" Chinese is an example of this. Sometimes in the midst of having a conversation the realization sets in that although they are both using words with an agreed upon meaning the messages being conveyed and the final understanding on the part of both parties are at total disconnect.

The disconnect arises from how the words are understood in context versus how they were meant to be understood by intention. Both context and intention are defined, shaped, or heavily influenced by cultural factors. A simple hand gesture in one part of the world will be warmly received and in another part of the world the same hand gesture will get you killed.

There are numerous words that do not translate cleanly, or cannot be translated, from English to Chinese or vice versa. Given that language is but symbolic representation the crux of the problem is clearly seen to not be raw experiential in nature. The total spectrum of stimulus perceivable by the senses is constant throughout the physical world.

The inability to translate into language problem arises from differences in mental conceptual frameworks or organizational structures that facilitate converting sensory input into something meaningful.

IME, the "secrecy" hurdle was overcome by openly conveying what's really in my heart, e.g., the willingness to learn, an appreciation of the culture's values, an honest workman ethic, personal integrity, sustained commitment, sustained good effort, etc.

IMO, those who attempt to manipulate, exploit, use, or covet are always discovered and shut out. Take a look at someone with a dozen or so Sifu that he/she has allegedly studied under and generally you will find a perfect example of this ruinous attitude.

They are allowed in to whatever degree and over some amount of time discovered to be of bad character. Secrecy did not keep them out as their own defective nature was to blame for their downfall. From one purely traditional point of view Joy’s online moniker “Yuan Fen” is what did them in.

The high level exchanges between recognized, legitimate Masters, which is often times characterized as “study” as a sign of humility, is something much different than the “Sifu Hopper” noted above.

All in all there may not be a real secrecy issue. It may well be just a profound and pronounced difference in understanding across a wide range of life. IMO and IME if I want to learn something from another culture I do things their way straight across the board and at no time attempt to take short cuts or circumvent their protocols. In taking such an approach I have found my experiences to be uniformly satisfying and rewarding beyond my wildest dreams. GM Lee has been very open and good to this old man. For that, I owe my Si-Hing Steve Richards a huge debt of gratitude.

[JF Springer]

>. . . I always consider an art where everyone does basically the same thing but every school is a bit different a good thing. It indicates a living tradition to me. I get kinda skeptical when I see everyone doing something the exact same way.

Well stated and right on point Water Dragon. It actually goes a bit deeper than that as art, by definition, is alive and speaks to the individual, across the many generations, and across many cultures.

Craft is "cookie cutter" based with no tolerance for individual expression. Craft is also of very limited value and holds the tools of choice for those without much talent or skill.

The problem with the Troll, who is the false prophet and deserves no name as he has no face, is that he/she must perpetuate the myth of having “secret squirrel” information that validates him/her. He/she probably teaches a few equally delusional people and no doubt they have super secret handshakes, magic decoder rings, and plastic club membership cards complete with embossed seal and holographic overlay.

No doubt in my mind, the Troll cannot name a single Sifu that recognizes him as being his To-dai or having any real skill. Just a collector that has bits and pieces but no whole.

So, to overcome this defect in an attempt to gain legitimacy the Troll recites a bunch of commonly known points, alleges access to many mysterious doors, and speaks in mumbo jumbo frequently found in cults.

I have been in this thing we call TCMA for many years and have found a general "live and let live" attitude pretty much around the world. There are always going to be mental defective types running around claiming an exclusive on this or that. My SOP for such idiotic clowns is to offer to cross hands and if they refuse I just ignore them. Debate is good but I'll have nothing to do with cowards.

[likuei]

The martial craft is what you receive from your teacher's transmission. If he has no concept of teaching then you probably will receive very little of what he received.

Martial art is what you become with your teacher's craft. If you are all about your craft and not your teachers' then by now all future generations will be far removed from the original.

Just a few generations of being "all about my own craft" and you will find yourself so far removed from the original teaching that you wont be able to recognize the original. There are some examples of this today in the USA and elsewhere.

JF both you and Steven claim to have a long list of styles I believe like you said you had one or more Chuk Lam teachers, hungka etc. and Steven list several styles under his belt. Aren't you both then Sifu Hoppers?

JF, I've given up on you naming your false prophet.

In history, we can see that many of the most popular (not necessarily SPM) kungfu masters sought out a long list of teachers and styles. Try reading the biographies including the Hakka Styles in the "Zhongguo Moshu Encylopedia" but you better get out your dictionary its in Chinese.

One reason Hakka arts are secretive is just as stated above. Those who beg for food receive it and then byte the hand that fed them. Another is that openess breeds evolution whether thats in the Hakka blood line by openess with other culture or Hakka art which loses its original flavor when "individualized" or mixed with other styles. In both ways it then becomes no longer Hakka.

There will be evolution of the art without the conscious effort to individualize. If everyone who learned from their teacher set out to change the art to suit themselves you wouldn't be able to see the teacher or the root of the art in their practice. Yet even those who try to mimic the teacher still appear a bit different. Like writing this post with Helvetica or Roman Font - A, B, C is still abc no matter which typestyle used.

JF, Looking at your last post, I don't have to condemn anyone or anything as you do. Everything is clear on its own. Are you a teacher? If so, I hope you are teaching your students better manners than you exhibit.

You call me names, fantacize about my lineage, accuse me of this and that without a clue of who I am. What does that make you besides the obvious? You don't have to answer although I know you will - its a rhetorical question.

[JF Springer]

Why hello Troll, thanks for revealing who you are. None too bright are you? Re-read your last post a few times and maybe your addled brain can discover where you screwed up, yet again.

There's something coming your way in the very near future and it's coming from the Hakka Elders.

If there's anything left of you once they're done I'll be issuing you an open challenge on multiple international forums so you can forget Gene bailing you out.

It's going to be gong sau the real, authentic, traditional way. No video cameras, no witnesses, no attorneys after the fact, no prohibitions against lethal force and only one rule. Namely, survive or don't.

Until such time I’m done with you. Have a real nice day.

[jon]

Glad im not on the wrong side of you JF Springer;)

Ill get some stuff on power generation in Hung Ga together for you guys to compare with your spm knowledge.
Please realise though im just a student and not really qualified to speak for the style, it will just be my own training.
Just give me a little time to get it together:)

As for likuei im really not sure what you hopped to accomplish from posting in the way you have.
Still there is one saving grace... people with half a brain can always see when someone is trying to start trouble. The only problem here being your picking on two people who are obviously very well respected. So its only done harm to your own reputation.
As to the comment on the teaching abilitys of either Steven Richards or JF Springer.
I would feel VERY lucky learn from either, they both clearly know there stuff exceptionly well and are not afraid to stick up for there art.
Before you go off on a tangent saying i somehow have something to gain from standing up for them, consider this...
I live in Australia, im not hakka and i already have a system[Hung Ga] im very happy in. I will most likely never have the pleasure of meeting either gentleman, I just know what is and is not rubbish when i hear it. Both have given excerlent insight into there art and both have an obvious working understanding of application and form. This is made clear in all of there posts.
Maybe your just jelous of someone elses abilitys to do what you can not?

[Water Dragon]

I kinda agree with you JF and kinda don't. First off though, whatever the Hakka want to do with hteir stuff is cool. They created it, they developed it, they can give it (or not give it) to whoever they want.

What I don't like is that secrecy breeds fraud. Especially in regards to new students. Luckily I'm at a point where I can watch someone move, feel them, and know if they have something real or not. I got that way because I found solid legitimate instruction, but it was dumb luck that got me there. I could very well have not stuck with my first real teacher and still be clueless as to real MA. There's also really no way to tell who's good or who's not if you are a beginner. You know da.mn well what would happen if I asked a legit Chinese teacher to cross hands to see if he was legit. Even if I did come back after the beating, I'm pretty much disregarded at that point.

I agree with you on the culture and learning what you're taught. But I also think giving the real stuff from the beginning will accomplish that. You WILL show your true heart before you hit a level where you can be considered dangerous. Besides, in today's age, it's cheaper and less time consuming to just get a gun and hit the firing range twice a week. Still, you can give 80 % without ever releasing the nasties of your art and still create a good fighter.

But like I said, the Chinese can do whatever they want. I sure as heII don't amount to a hill of beans to them. I'm just venting :D

[JF Springer]

Well thought out response Water Dragon and I certainly don't seek 100% agreement with anything say. I can just speak into my dictaphone and have my secretary play it back to me if that's what I sought.

Whether a culturally unique art is shared beyond the confines of said culture is not something unique to Hakka. IME, I found the French to be the least generous, open and giving of people.

I understand, and to a certain extent agree with, your point regarding secrecy breeding frauds. Then again, taken to its logical conclusion there would be internationally recognized standards in place, and standardized certification requirements. Kind of difficult to validate art in this manner and it begs the question of whether or not it's really possible to quantify and qualify any art form to such a degree.

Understood on the newbies being subject to predators. I have been blessed from jump street and in 37 years haven't followed a fraud for a single day. Yuan fen, $hithouse luck, or by the grace of God I was spared that ordeal.

I beg to differ with you on the crossing hands with a prospective Sifu. IME, that's the way it was done. Normally, the response was to put a senior disciple up in the teacher's place. His school, his choice. The "test" was if I was going to place myself under his tutelage then he had to have something to teach. Since I've never trained or practiced MA for any reason other than real world combat that meant I had to be beaten. Painful, some fair degree of damage, but we all heal in time. It answered the questions I had as well as conveyed the message to Sifu that I was nothing but serious.

I continue this practice and offer any prospective student the same deal on first meeting. They are invited to wipe me out anyway they can. Since I will only accept a student that has appreciable time and skill in some form of MA they tend to accept my offer. Makes for a solid foundation with regard to the "teacher - student" arrangement and immediately lays to rest any doubts they may have with regard to whether or not JL SPM works.

As for giving the "real stuff" from the start I agree 100%. The real good ones tend to do this it's just that it's 100% real at a very neophyte level. At one time there was a common expression: "What's Sifu going to do, revoke my hands?" as once things are taught they cannot be taken away. So, some degree of prolonged testing of character is in order.

IME, the twice a week on the range thing is off. Just for "filler" to give you some idea where I'm coming from on this, I'm a former member of ODA 735 & 726, A Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne), combat veteran, qualified and certified small arms expert in over a dozen small arms weapons systems, among other things. An ODA or Operational Detachment Alpha is what Hollywood calls an "A Team" if this helps. At any rate, skill with small arms is highly perishable and a couple of times a week on the range shooting holes in paper targets from a fixed distance
that are non-moving isn't going to cut it. In the heat of the moment you're just as likely to shoot yourself in the foot as put round on target. Even at that, with hand guns the standard is “double tap” or 2 consecutive rounds, center mass, put within the distance of a .50 cent piece from each other, in rapid succession. That generally insures the guy has been severely compromised.

I don't amount to a hill of beans to the Chinese either. I'm just a gweilo who has acquired a certain level of skill in response to excellent instruction, dedicated training and a willingness to do the real deal down in the blood and the mud. I'm certain that if I took all my "I Love Me" stuff down to the local 7-11 I could get a cup of coffee. That is, as long as I had a $1.50 on me as well.

[likuei]

JF,
1. Who do you think I am?

2. Who is Gene?

3. Take some prozac man you are wigging out. You can huff and puff but I don't scare.

4. Be careful what you ask for you just might get it.

Jon, Reputations are like the jealousy you speak of - what you have in your mind is unimportant to me. My post presents a standard veiw regarding SPM training - thats all. I'm not picking on tit for tat - although I may have commented on their posts even so in a much less offensive way than does JF. Personally, I don't care what they teach as I'm not in the buying market. As JF says Caveat Emptor.

[Water Dragon]

I started a shooting skills thread. Please join in. Thanks

[JF Springer]

Thanks for the kind offer but I'm only on this forum at Steve's request. As soon as he releases me from this obligation I'm out of here.

IMO, forums suck swamp water. Eats up a lot of time better used practicing and too d@mned many "tough guys" who are fearless outside of arms distance, Trolls.

However, I might be able to do something better for you if you have a genuine interest in close quarter hand gun combat skills.

Contact me off list at my profile listed E-mail address if you like and we'll see if there's something I can do for you.

[yuanfen]

JF Springer sez:IMO, forums suck swamp water. Eats up a lot of time better used practicing and too d@mned many "tough guys" who are fearless outside of arms distance, Trolls
-------------------------------------------------------------
TRUE!!!!

[Steven T. Richards]

likuei,

Going back to points raised by you earlier: you fundamentally misunderstand the Lee-Yin-Sing approach.

Firstly, just to reiterate, doi-chongs are included, but, not for everybody, and for varying amounts of time where they are taught.

Mor-Kiu skills are taught in preference, with a floating bridge and leaking hand skills.

Som-Bo-Gin does not exist in all SPM Pai, although three step formula and similar sets/parts of sets may be found.

Pressure testing is not as you describe it, but a recursive loop feedback approach, where the individual tests his/her understanding of principles, structures energy etc to their (personal) failure point, before reassessing themselves as well as the principles in question - in relation to seniors and elders. the process is positive and dynamic - being a continuous learning curve. It avoids the development of compliance based comfort zones and abstract practice.

Gin-Tan-Ging is the energetic dynamic of SPM, however, contrary to your point, there are both biomechanical and qualitative variations in its delivery - significant ones - with significant differences in end delivery of force. To bundle them all under one heading is misleading.

Dim Mak, chi-gung/hei gung are taught in LYS's and Ho-Sing's Pai right from the off and not withheld.

The determining factor is character - which it is then the responsibility of seniors and elders to assess and to nurture. That has its pressure testing, failure points and recursive loop develoment as well.

GM Lee-Lien is married to an Englishwoman, as was Ho-Sing and many others in LYS's Pai. GM Lee's blood son's are half Hakka, half English. GM Lee has no time for racism.

For you to be able to justify your accusation of 'Si-Fu' hopping against me, you would need to know more than you do about me and my background. If you had said information then your cursory attempt at an insult would fall flat.

Please, get in touch privately with your personal details. When you can be 'verified' you can be formally invited to come to the UK and repeat your remarks insinutaing that Grandmaster Lee does not know his own culture - in person face to face.

Your remark to John F. Springer (numbered 4.) on your list is word perfect for a threat made to me in an e-mail not some days ago. indeed the person who sent that mail has an open invitation to call and repeat his insults - same as extended to you. it is interesting how your style of writing has evolved since your first post - be careful what you say - it might just reveal you;)

Now, if, which is perfectly possible, I have got you completely wrong, then you have my unreserved and sincere personal and public apology.

You might prove that to be the case by entering a proper debate with the results of benefit to all (including me). Along the way, you might also have the courtesy to answer the questions that I raised of you earlier.

Sincerely,

Steve.

[Aussie John]

Good'ay Steve Sihing and Jack,
There are certainly a lot of interesting points raised on this thread, I hope I can contribute in due course.

Jon, have you seen me before in the Easter Carnival Performance at Market City ???


Cheers,


Aussie John.

[Andrew]

Bao Jong

In response to your post, yes the softer side of Chow Gar
Mantis, is given the term silk reeling power. I've only
recently been introduced to it, so my knowledge maybe
incorrect as I've yet to fully understand the principles involved.

I'm told its another level of training. Once you've been introduced
to the concepts, you incoporate rate it in to all your movements.
It seems to involve several parts. The first is body unity,
As a junior, when you strike you usually use the strinking limb
only. Silk reeling power aims to unify the whole body
behind the strike, rather like chen Tai Chi's shock power.

In a similar manner the waist becomes the axis which drives
the body, it also acts in connecting the top half of the
body with your base.

The second aspect, is how you strike, movements are no
longer linear. You 'drill' each movement. Like a drill your
motion travels both forward and out/inward. The concept
is again like the spinning top, you deflect incoming movements.

Along with this, are the sensitivity drills. Which were you
try and relax and simply react to your partners movements.
I hope this helps, or at least helps to clarrify a few things.

Andrew

[jon]

Greetings thank you for joining us in this discussion, I hope you might provide some insite into your own training in spm. There have been many questions asked. Still i can understand if your reluctant especialy given current circumstances.
In responce to your question to me no i didnt see you, i missed that im afraid :) I did however attend the festival in Burwood which you were so kind as to post the information for. I was there with my sifu and a few other students.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Andrew,

Very informative post. I wonder if Aussie John as a Chow-Gar and Lee-Yin-Sing Jook-Lum man might be able to compare the yin elements, leaking hand, floating bridge, use of waist and feet to generate power in LYS's Jook-Lum with CG's Silk-Reeling power?

I thought that it was interesting that you compared it to Chen's Tai-Chi and Lee-Yin-Sing's advanced energy is supposed to be similar - despite that fact being mocked out of ignorance by some lesser learned SPM individuals from another Pai.

Great that you helped out on that one, I'm learning much and am very obliged to you.

Hi Jon,

Thank you for you continued kind remarks. Lets hope that we can get back to your initial questions!

Aussie John,

Brilliant that you are on the thread, your very wide experience will help I've no doubt. I've some questions re Chow-Gar myself that hopefully will further my understanding.

Cheers Brother,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Hello Andrew - Well stated and I particularly liked your part regarding the drilling motion.

The hand must go progressively yin in certain aspects if it is to be of any value to someone beyond the time I call "the gifts of youth" and what you described fits the spiraling energy model as I understand it.

The outgoing and inward retracting bridge's spiral accounts for the opponent's bridge when leaking. Your post also reveals a tactical consideration when employing this method. Specifically, it happens at a very close distance and leaks along the path of the opponent's bridge. IME, it actually rides the opponent's bridge. The distance is what I like to refer to as "standing in the opponent's shadow" as I am literally inside his base of support or root. The total distance of strike is from finger tips touching, elbow down and in, shoulder folded-coiled, dip gwat held in reserve, distance.

I came to this about 20 years ago when reality testing my method. At that time my foe of choice was the average college football (American) defensive lineman or line backer with the arena typically being the local college or university jock pub. These guys were in the 6’2” to 6’6” range and weighed in between 225 – 260 pounds. Their football positions required them to have good hand fighting skills to keep opposing linemen from getting into their bodies and blocking them, as well as excellent balance to stay on their feet when hit with a leg whip or cut block. They also came pre-packaged with great strength, an appetite for pain and a willingness to kick a$$. The pub setting dictated close confines so it was the perfect setting for reality testing SPM, IMO.

It takes a fair number of years and a lot of practice to bring the mechanics together as quickly as they need to manifest in order to make this work. However, once accomplished it is virtually impossible to counter or effectively deal with.

I used a systemic and progressive training and practice protocol to develop this skill and if it is something that interests you I invite you to contact me off list for further discussion.

The mechanics are really of no value to someone not of the SPM Pai and I don't want to contribute to the education of a certain no name, no lineage, no guts, Troll.

Thanks for your open, honest and informative post.

[yuanfen]

The Springer post:
I am not SPM period but the principles you mentioned that are understood in the developmental path are similar but not the same as in my style- most likely because of the proximate southern origins of both arts. The differences are in how rooting and mobility are achieved. Good post.

[likuei]

Steven T. Richards, you are very funny. You and JF continue making veiled politics and threats toward someone here although you've yet to name the person?

You've been doing it the entire thread and now you accuse me of being the person that you speak of. You guys are really paranoid. You certainly seem to hate someone. Prozac might help.

You cannot guess who I am because you don't know me. And I don't know you except by what you write here. I do give you credit though, your posts are coming around in terms of training. You have completely changed positions from the form sambochin being worthless to now saying its included in your system under a different name. etc. and the same with chongs.

And JF's honesty is refreshing when he says hes here only at your request and that Forums suck swamp water. Maybe you ought to release him from here? What kinda hold do you have on him? Sounds like a cult? Or Hakka voodoo?

Looking back over your posts here what I find the funniest is not your viewpoints on training, or your misconceptions or even differences in SPM, its your tit for tat praise of each other and yourselves. Your need to be recognized is very large.

Your training ideas are getting better though.

[Steven T. Richards]

likuei,

You've successfully defined yourself as a troll -how sad.

Specifically, where on this thread have I said that Som-Bo-Gin is 'worthless'?

I have not.

You ask questions but you evade answering them.

Given that you claim knowledge of the opinions of Hakka elders, and, given that you claim to be part of Lam-Sang's lineage, and that said elders disaprove of the internet, what might they think of an extensive web presence and very large web site developed by a non-Chinese in Lam-Sang's name?

Such a site exists, why haven't they closed it down or otherwise expressed their disfavour?

As for my need to be recognised, look above to post 9 on page 7 of this thread. The situation is expressed fully and publicly just as it is.

Save your venom for your own little cult and its inbred concerns.

You've had your invitation.

[DelicateSound]

Still the in-fighting continues.

[JF Springer]

The Springer post:
I am not SPM period but the principles you mentioned that are understood in the developmental path are similar but not the same as in my style- most likely because of the proximate southern origins of both arts.

-Sounds reasonable to me. Variations on a theme.

The differences are in how rooting and mobility are achieved.

-Agreed, the mechanics diverge at that point and this is manifested in both the technical and tactical presentation of the hand.

Good post.

-Considering who you are and what you've achieved I thank you most kindly.

[Aussie John]

Good'ay Jon,
My own SPM training started many years ago with my cousin Peter Lee, he actually introduced SPM to me and my brother back in 1981. We use to train days and nights, you know the usual CG SPM stuffs, chai sau, chongs and drills. I think the most powerful thing that I developed during that time was the massive say ban ging (four directional power), then after that was the gow chui, pak sau and pai sau. After a year later I begin to develop the clawing power and skills etc etc.
The soft side did not kick in until a few years later with circular and spiral palming techniques, and side stepping entry techniques.

Hope this help.




Aussie John.

[JF Springer]

Jon - In order to get things off center in this comparison discussion you might consider taking one of the Sap Jyut Sau from Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen and presenting it according to the formula found in Tid Sin Kuen.

That would provide us with a common lexicon and if we're lucky Yuan Fen will come into this as well. If he agrees to participate it will give us three southern systems with each presenting a quasi-analogous structure.

Some helpful ground rules are to focus on the common elements of the respective techniques for the first work through and then pick up the divergent points on the second pass.

This will give us decent working platforms for the technical aspects and allow us to develop an accurate mutual understanding of terms.

Once this is accomplished we can transition into the tactical or application based elements of the technique(s).

This is just a suggestion so if you all ready have something in mind by all minds go with it.

[JF Springer]

Steve - Just dis the Troll, he's been identified and hasn't a clue how it happened. Let's just say that it's a source qualified and accepted as authoritative by every Circuit Court in the USA and allow him to ponder what that means.

The good thing is that his students have access to this site and in time, if they haven't all ready by virtue of his completely devoid of substance posts, come to see just how little the Troll knows.

I do retract my previous assertion that the Troll is not inside the door as clearly he is. He is inside the door to the hen house, hunkered down with the other no name, no lineage, no skill and no guts, chickens.

Of course, in the near future he will be sanctioned and totally discredited when revealed internationally as a poseur so I suppose it really doesn't matter.

Jon should be posting a starting point in the near future so that we can get on with the open and fully public discussion regarding energy production mechanics.

I look forward to bringing some small portion of real, authentic, traditional JL SPM into the open light as the Troll and ilk of his sort spew forth nothing but dark, stale, dead air.

[likuei]

Y A W N -


Y A W N -

[jon]

This is not easy for me as im only at an intermediate level myself and so only going on my limited knowledge.
I will briefly state how external power is used in Hung Ga then go on to give a brief discription of the 12 bridges in Hung Ga.
Im going to avoid going to far into things i havent trained personaly, as dont want to have to then answer questions on things over my head.
External power in Hung Ga comes from the ground. A strong stance and body is the foundation for this type of power generation as it requires the whole body to litterly push though the floor using the legs.
This is why Hung Ga fighters often hug the ground. By keeping the knees bent and the body low it provides a moveable yet stable base. There is also a lot of waist action in the strikes and the body is kept behind the movement so as to add to the force of the impact. Its like a chain that moves though the feet to the knees to the hips to the sholders to the elbows shooting its way out of the fingers or fists
Internal power is a little different but im not there yet :{
My training is mainly Gung Gee Fuk Fu[taming the tiger in the I shape] at the moment.
I will now discribe briefly the word formula behind the 12 bridges as this is where much of Hung's defensive and offensive power comes from.
1 'hard' simply to use strength and muscle or to go from soft to hard.
2 'soft' relaxed flowing movements, often circular.
3 'forcing-crowding' a way of colapasing the structure of your opponent. Often an outwards semi circlular movement frequently tiger.
4 'strait' delivering force from the waist to the arms in a strait line.
Seen in many Hung movements right up from the strait punch.
5 'dividing' usualy represented by outward and lateral strikes often using backfists.
6 'steady' using the solidity of the stance and the strength of the forearms. Often represented by both arms strait with the palms facing forward.
7 'inch' proberly the most stressed, this power is the ability to make small movements produse large damage. Comes from strong muscles high energy and ging.
8 'lift' usualy an outwards and upwards movement [think uppercut] from a strong stance with a low centre of gravity.
9 'reserve' this relates to not wasting energy and to sence, often seen in Hungs famous 1 fingered techniques.
10 'sending' this is where an attackers force is redirected for the use of the defender. Usualy circular soft movements.
11 'control' usualy represented by semi circular movements towards your centerline with powerful forearms. Used as a way of interupting things like centreline blasts.
12 'settle' often represented by twin swinging fists, force is generated by dropping one limb whilst lifting the other.

That was my personaly training its not gospel and if any other Hung Ga people would like to correct what ive writen or debate it please do so.
For all those who have never heard the term 'bridge', ill do a fast run down...
Think of your body and your opponents as a castle, your bridge is your way of spanning the gap between you and your opponent. You could also think of your power and energy as being your soliders you send accross your bridge.
Hence its possible for instance to bridge without transfering soliders[power]. Might sound confusing but it really can open up a lot of avenues.
Hope this can serve as a small comparison.
JF Springer im afraid that Fu Hok is the form ill be starting briefly and Tit Sing is still a way off yet. So i wont touch on those two forms just yet. Ive included the 12 bridges anyway though as i think these represent much of Hung's fighting power.
Also power generation varys from animal to animal and element to element so ive simply listed the default beguiner external generation.

[jon]

Originally posted by likuei
Y A W N -


Y A W N -

Wow you really must be bored... begs the question why are you hanging around? Perhaps you have some kind of 'reason' for trolling this thread? After all you wont answer strait questions and wont take part in the discussion... so errr why still here?
"Your training ideas are getting better though."
Perhaps you wish to teach us something yourself?

[JF Springer]

Good effort on the Hung Gar recital Jon. Let me suggest that you pick one bridge and marry it to one strike. Feel free to take it directly from Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen as that is what you are focusing on these days. That will give us the Hung Gar part of the equation.

We need to move in a more deliberate manner rather than go straight into a full blown whole system analysis. The differences in body mechanics between Hung Gar and JL SPM are very pronounced. Taking it step by step will allow us to examine and come to some understanding with regard to how these differences occur and the rationale for same. This is kind of like the old question "How does one eat an elephant?" Answer: "One bite at a time."

As for the Troll please ask your Sifu the following question as I believe it is your best interest to hear it from your teacher: How would he value the opinions of someone who posted on an open forum that was afraid and refused to list their name, afraid and refused to list their lineage, afraid and refused to name their Sifu, afraid and refused to accept an open challenge to gong sau, yet claimed to represent the Chan Hon Chung, Lam Jo, and Dang Fong Pai?

The Troll is proof positive of the truth stated as "Lin Kuen Buht Lin Gung, Do Lo Yat Chung Hong."

[Mantram]

This is easily the most informative thread I have ever encounterd at this site. Does anyone know how this all relates to Roger Hagood and his school?

This "Pazzmoot" person was Mike Feld or some other student of Roger Hagood.

[jon]

I will certainly pick out something a little easyer to swallow. I wanted to show some of the various forms of bridging in general in my style before going to far into anything individualy.
Might have to give me till tommoro as its late where i am but one thing made me post tonight.
"yet claimed to represent the Chan Hon Chung, Lam Jo, and Dang Fong Pai?"
Is this refering to Likuei?
Please please tell me this is not true:( I refuse to belive someone of Hung linage would be so rude:mad:
There cant be to much truth to the linage as thats a far fetched resume for any Hung Stylist, unless it was learnt by mail order. He then has the gaul to call people "sifu-hopper".
It pains me to think someone learning the same morals and skills i am is being such a cowardly fool:mad:

[Steven T. Richards]

Pazmoot is an Iron Ox disciple.
I consider him a personal friend.
There is nothing further to it than that.

[JF Springer]

"yet claimed to represent the Chan Hon Chung, Lam Jo, and Dang Fong Pai?" Is this refering to Likuei?

[Yes]

Please please tell me this is not true I refuse to belive someone of Hung linage would be so rude

[He's not of Hung Gar lineage or any other for that matter. The question I asked you to pose to your Sifu is a hypothetical. The Troll claims to be "inside the door" with 3 SPM Pai. The only door this cowardly, no nothing, no name, no Sifu, idiot is inside is that to the hen house with all other gutless wonders]

[I gave you the question to ask your Sifu so that he could give you his take on how he would consider some punk like the Troll if the scared, lying, freak claimed Hung Gar status as he is claiming JL SPM status]

[Your teacher's response would give you a perspective outside those who are involved in this matter]

There cant be to much truth to the linage as thats a far fetched resume for any Hung Stylist, unless it was learnt by mail order.

[That's exactly one of my points. What he claims is a complete fantasy that he's created and come to believe. The Troll is a classic example of why brothers shouldn't marry sisters and then have children as it results in much mental illness. The Troll's repeated reference to Prozac is a clue that he's mentally ill and no doubt on many anti-psychotic medications. His medications apparently aren't working very well for him]

He then has the gaul to call people "sifu-hopper".

[His fantasy has him "all powerful" "all knowing" and "inside many mysterious doors." It's part of his mental illness, Jon]

It pains me to think someone learning the same morals and skills i am is being such a cowardly fool

[He's learning nothing as he keeps making the same mistakes. That in of itself is proof positive he is extremely stupid and the uneven posts reflect great mental illness. He goes from semi-Chinese persona to a morally outraged white boy persona. No doubt, he's suffering from some form of schizophrenia compounded by psychotic features, primarily delusions of grandeur]

[I forwarded a number of his posts from this thread, which I had collected daily, on to a friend of mine who is forensics analyst for our FBI. This gentleman specializes in linguistic and document analysis. I also provided my friend with a number of posts from threads from the past, both from this forum and others, as well as some writings authored by the person I believed to be the Troll. They were redacted so he had no clue as to the author(s) or dates of any of the posts. He correctly selected and associated all posts that my originals had names ascribed to. He also correctly selected, associated/identified the written materials from the source I believed to be the Troll. According to my friend, they were written by one and the same person]

[I then asked that he take the materials to one of his peers who is also employed by the FBI and specializes in psychological profiling from written materials. This gentleman was kind enough to provide me with a complete psychological profile which is noted above re: mental illness. So, none of what I've posted is speculative. It's all true to a degree that is accepted by every Circuit Court as well as Federal Court in America]

[Just click on his profile, go to the bottom of the profile page, load him into your "ignore list" and he will appear on this thread on par with the content of his posts to date. Namely, absent]

[JF Springer]

Glad to read that you are enjoying the thread thus far as it's getting quite a bit of attention from lurkers. Just to let you know, it's going to get much better as we are moving beyond the Troll and into some substance dense material regarding real, authentic, traditional Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

I checked your profile and it's a blank. So that you don't get mistaken for a stooge of the resident Troll how about providing us with some information regarding yourself? It would negate any potential mischaracterization of you as well as allow us to gain some understanding of your perspective in the event you wish to post on this thread.

After all, save for the Troll, we're all honorable people looking for some honest and open discussion in the light with regard to things typically kept hidden and in the dark.

Certainly can't be any harm in telling us who you are and what your past MA experience consists of now can there?

[jon]

Now i know why not to post on public message boards when your lacking sleep and have had little to eat. Stupidity tends to insure.
I compleatly misunderstood most of your post, thinking your 'ask your sifu' questions where directed at Likeui.
I now understand you perfectly:D Benifit of sleep:rolleyes:

My sifu would of course be mortified.
Its always sad when someone of no substance decides to portray themselfs as a authority. I take things as there given and making claims without backing them up is futile in my books. Both yourself and Mr Richards have made very clear your high knowledge your art. Our troll on the other hand continues to sling mud without having a base to stand in. My favorite saying will be said again 'people in glass houses shouldnt thow stones'.
Anyway enough on our resident troll...
I will be posting my given bridge and technique proberly tommoro as today is new years eve here. So i hope everyone has had a great year and has an even better one next year.
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!
Thanks again to all those taking part and helping make this the great discussion its turing out to be:D
Special thanks to JF Springer and Steven T. Richards, you guys are both an inspiration, your knowledge and time are appreciated hugely.
Jon

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Sincere thanks, and seasons best wishes to you and your loved ones.

Lets keep the discussion going.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Richard mantis]

Hello Steve and Jack.

Glad to see a exellent conversation about South Mantis kept under control by the two of you.

I hope to see the conversation continue.

Glad to see the Troll was identified.


Rich

[JF Springer]

Hello Rich:

Welcome and good to see you on board. Please join in whenever you please. Anyone from GM Gin Foon Mark's Pai is welcome as the man's hands are pure JL SPM and pure Gold.

Oh yeah, the Troll has been properly identified and is sweating bullets trying to find an avenue of escape. What a total idiot. I’m giving him some more time to sweat before I authorize a global posting identifying him along with all the substantiating documents attached.

Please pass along my respects to GM Gin Foon Mark.

[Richard mantis]

Jack

Thanks. Will do.

I am looking forward to your global posting.

Take care.

Rich

[jon]

Im going to now use JF Springer's advice and select one of the 12 bridge techniques and marry it to a common strike found in Hung Ga.
Im going to go with the crowding bridge as these are some of the skills Hung is better known for. Its also a skill found frequently in the form im currently polishing, making this a good study for me personaly.
'forcing-crowding' a way of colapasing the structure of your opponent. Often an outwards semi circlular movement frequently tiger.
The technique im going to use is the famous 'hungry tiger catching lamb' pose [proberly known under several names] which I use this as my avatar. If you look under my name you can see Lam Sai Wing performing this movement.
The theory behind the application of this movement is to use your body weight and blocking arm to sink right over an attacking limb and into the opponents body at the same time attacking with your other arm.
Done properly this will force your opponent of balance and also close the door on there defence, there attacking arm is effectivly nailed accross there body shutting off the the other limb as well.
Use of this movement requires bravery as you must activly step into an attack it also requires a good root and strong arms to be pulled off effectivly.
The power is generated though a combination of pushing off the ground from a low bow stance and turning the waist.
This is a fairly common movement in Hung Ga and I thought it might do for a comparison.
Is there any similar movements in SPM? Would this kind of movement be used in spm or would it conflict with the style?
If anyone would like to share with me a bridge and technique from there school for comparision it would be great.

[JF Springer]

Jon - Good choice for a starting point. I'll answer a part of it and then hopefully some others will pick it up from there.

Just a quick reminder of the previously submitted and agreed to comparison format: We deal with points of agreement first, secondly the points of divergence are addressed, and finally we examine how the technical aspects (the formation of the structures) play out in the tactical arena (application).

The "pinning" effect is what JL SPM typically describes as "closing" or "locking" with the understanding that the direction is relative to the opponent's centerline, e.g., "in" is towards his centerline.

Mor sau from the outside - in is an example of this. As an analogous structure you might think in terms of Hung Gar's inward hooking crane hands. Mor sau is less vertically inclined, less perpendicular to the ground, a flatter angle, but similar enough for our present purpose.

As with your Hung Gar model, the opponent's engaged bridge is "locked" into his centerline and temporarily deprives him of this weapon.

Another common element is the possibility of pinning or locking in concert with downing force. This further mechanically disadvantages the opponent in that the angle of force can be such that it feeds into his center of mass.

This creates a line of force through his balance point angling towards the ground which can freeze him place for a split instant. A bit like "nailing him to the ground" so to speak.

Yet another common aspect is the biomechanical disadvantage placed upon the opponent. From a purely anatomical perspective if he receives or is fed a "down and in" force through his bridge the brunt of the immediate force load is accomadated by the frontal deltoid complex. This is a relatively weak muscle group.

By way of example, tie a length of rope to 25 - 50 pound weight. Then extend your bridge to your front. Next, have someone place the rope loop over your bridge. Close your eyes and have them drop the weight when they choose with you focusing on keeping your bridge extended. Have them visually note the angle of your bridge at its downward most point of travel. The implications of this side experiment should be obvious.

The root structures of both examples are also similar to a degree in that both place the majority of your body mass on line with the angle of force you are feeding into the opponent's bridge.

Another element common to both structures is that the centerline locking or pinning momentarily deprives the opponent of the ability to produce rotational force. He can neither dissolve nor effectively strike through mechanics dependent upon rotational force production.

Okay, that's enough out of me.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Richard,

Respect & regards to GM Mark and the Pai, great to have you here!

John F.

John, you know don't you that some troll is going to say that you should be posting about attack and defence ocurring within the length of a cow lying down nose-to-tail? Isn't that what REAL martial arts are about and not the scientific analysis of mechanics, movement, structure and energy - synthesised with tactics and street real technique?

New Year levity aside, excellent post between you and Hung-Gar Jon (if I can refer to you that way Jon?). I've been privileged to have studied both Hung-Gar and Lam Pai Tong-Long over some decades now, and I can still learn from lucid debate between intelligent, open and experienced collegues.

Cheers Friends,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

No doubt the Troll will have something devoid of content to say. Then again, who could really take serious some clown that claims all kinds of "secret squirrel" information and being “inside” many mysterious doors yet doesn't have the balls to post his name, identify his Sifu, or state his lineage, much less show up for gong sau?

The people on this forum have seen all kinds of Trolls and are able to easily identify them. They’re marked by the same characteristics. It all comes down to credibility and the cowardly Troll has none. “Mark of the Troll.”

The ignore idiots feature is great. Load the loser into it and he appears just like his posts, empty.

Yeah, the length of a cow lying down nose-to-tail, what a hoot!!

[jon]

Steven
The day ill mind being refered to as 'Hung-Gar Jon' would only be from the priest on my wedding day, hehe ie proberly never:rolleyes:
Can I ask how long you studied Hung Ga for and what sort of forms and stuff you got into during your training in Hung? Just out of interest really.


JF Springer
Thank you for your comparison, our two models obviously have a fair amount in common. The sinking and centreline pinning are quite common in Hung Ga and the ideals run deep into many of the movements ive so far learnt.
One thing i wanted to ask... In my system much bridging is done with the forearms and as such we spend a great deal of time conditioning them.
Does southern mantis use the forearms much in bridging? If so what kind of training do you use to develop skill in things like sensitivity and sticking.
In my school we use puch hands and several sticking hand drills to develop the sensitivity and then use external conditioning and qigung to stengthen and toughen the arms.

I think its time we let the troll go guys:) Im pretty sure he has run off with his tail between his legs [proberly to research some more old black belt magazines for his mouth boxing] and wont be heard from again untill he can think up something else pointless to say. At least thats what im telling myself:rolleyes:

[jon]

Does this mean that when you guys perform your sets your actualy taking up MORE room than this! I bet you have also broken the four floortile rule? This is terrible, you claim to be teaching the real deal and now i hear this!!! Real spm is all about not having to move to far, taking exactly three steps and never teaching anyone who aint Chinese.
My set is still performed EXACTLY as Hung Hei Kwun designed it so ner ner:p

Just kidding guys have a great new year:D

[JF Springer]

Jon - Yes to your questions regarding sticking, conditioning, etc. Actually, Steve addressed this in a post on this thread. The point is that in the LYS Pai we don't stay a neophyte forever and move into actual application as soon as a proper foundation is created.

There are still several aspects of the current model to be examined and perhaps we can stay focused on this until it has been completely worked through.

The strike off the bridge hasn't been discussed. Additionally, we've yet to address points of divergence with the final phase of this exercise devoted to application.

So, if this is to be a meaningful learning experience let's keep focused and not get lost chasing tangents.

Jon, you could continue by reducing the Hung Gar strike in your model to words so that the JL SPM analogues can be identified and stated.

[Aussie John]

Good'ay Steve Si Hing,
If I may, I would like to share some of my experience of what I have learnt in the LYS Ho Sing's style with everyone (especially Hung Gar Jon) on this thread.

Jon:
There are many different styles of SPM as you can see, and they are more of less the same in regards to the formular of body posture and ma bo, however some SPM develop a lot more on the elbow ging whilst other on the shoulder.
e.g. In LYS - Ho Sing Pai, we use twisting and turning power of the body and legs together with the shoulder ging to deliver the dealy strikes.
It cuts in or across the opponent's centreline very fast using the Ho-Sing's Ginger Fist hand first, and then using the palms, forearms and elbows to control of the opponent's planes to facilitate the finishing off techniques.
The LYS Ho Sing kiu sau is very fast and flowing, and is able to change directions once contact is made with the opponent's bridge. Although LYS Ho Sing have many bridge on bridge techniques like other SPM, it is also very efficient on its leaking hand techniques.
The Ho Sing Alternative Ginger Fist is probably one of the unique hand fists that the practitioner need to be patiently trained before understand the concept and its usage. It is held very different to the Chow gar and Chu Gar and other Jook Lum Pais. At first it looks like the formation of the Choy Li Fut Chup Chui, however its delivery cover a broad spectrum of angles and pressure points than Choy Li Fut. The foreknuckles of the fingers and thumb are used to aim at the limbs and pressure points of the opponent's bridge to break down of its defence while cutting in and delivering strikes such as the "accelerated Ginger to Phoenix fist" to areas of the body.
The practitioner also learn to link up this unique Ginger Fist hand to other techniques such as Faan sau (Switching hand), Jeet Kiu (intercepting bridge hand), Jook Kiu (bamboo hand), Juun Kiu ( Spinning bridge hand), Got Kiu (cutting bridge hand) and Ding Kiu (upward striking bridge hand).
The Ho Sing's unique style is an important part of SPM, and it has enriched my understanding of the striking and leaking concept in SPM.


Cheers,


Aussie John.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Hung-Gar Jon,

I was the senior student to the late Hung-Gar Master Jimmy Chan-Wai from 1975 - 1981 (I started Tong-Long in 1980). I did Wing-Chun and Hop-Gar from 1973, and Karate & Boxing from 1966.

Lineage in Hung-Gar is from Wong-Fei-Hung: Fung-Hok-Biu: Law-Keung: Chan-Wai.

Master Chan taught Northern Shaolin too at the same time as the HG. I received all the main hand sets and a number of weapons in HG.

Aussie John,

Many thanks Friend, for contributing. It is good to get a perspective on Lee-Yin-Sing's J-L from someone who is well versed in other Tong-Long Pai also. Cheers.

[bean curd]

steven,

read with interest your lineage on hung kuen is through fung hok biu, is he also known as fung wing biu, if they are not one in the same, do you know their relationship.

cheers

[Steven T. Richards]

This is a most misunderstod and underappreciated advanced approach to learning Tong-Long Kuen.

I'll make empirical comments based upon my own learning from my Masters and how I teach my own students:

It is often said that TCMA students must learn the systems structures to a prolonged extent before applying them in application. Some Pai actually wait some years before attempting to teach 'live-fire' methods.

My view is that this has many drawbacks. Beginners can't (initially) make their structures work against realistic attacks and so will fail in a real fighting situation, UNLESS, they are taught right from the get-go to feel the pressure of real attacks - and to apply their new learning.

Quite naturally, this will be an initial experience (usually) of failure of an as yet incompletely mastered system and its structures/dynamics.

It is better to fail early on in the compratively 'safe' environ of a Kwoon, than, some years down the road, after considerable experence of compliance based artificial structures - to get yer head kicked in by someone who only knows how to fight 'naturally'.

Far from getting ahead of themselves, the pressure testing LYS Pai approach gets students psychologically and physically prepared both to get hit and to 'fail' - and to stop themselves getting hit and to win.

Both technical and practical structures/scenarios can and rae learned in tandem.

It is very sad to see TCMA students get beat after years of BS based abstract training - far better to invole the student immediately in problem solving reality based scenario's - and to recursively test their techniques, both against their own learning curve, and the experiences of their seniors and elders.

This means error correcting feedback going into the learning curve - that produces refined, realistic skills as well as an excellent standard of 'proper form'.

Personally, I find that students are much more motivated to progress, and do so more rapidly, if their intelligence is engaged by realism.

It used to amuse me that so many TCMA people would 'tell' me that this approach does not/cannot work - without the slightest experience of it. NOw, I am less amused and more resigned to the relativity of knowledge and experience: which, in the street, is a primary selective factor in survival.

One of the fundamental drawbacks of some TCMA is the 'culture' of abstraction - something that is very 'inductive' - insidiously so in many cases, so that students eventually live in a virtual world supported only by some years of frank BS based training in a compliant comfort zone.

I am happy for my people to 'breakdown' my structure - even for beginners to get thru. It suggests to me that I'm teaching properly if my people 'get it' and understand enough to 'solve' the problem.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Bean Curd,

Fung-Hok-Biu as I understand it is not the famous Fong-Wing-Biu, but a much junior student of WFH. My lineage was not a 'senior' one, but a respectable one nevertheles. Master Chan-Wai's uncle was Law-Keung. If it helps, Master Chan was ethnicly a 'Bundhi' Chinese from Kwangtung.

I've noticed some striking sequencial and technical variations between the Kung-Ji-Fook-Fu set, and the Fu-Hok-Sung-Ying form that I learned from Chan-Wai and some of the more familiar versions routinely practiced in other lineages.

Master Chan's school flourishes in Liverpool UK. It is headed by Stephen Ornelious, who was his last senior student.

Regards,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Steve - Your accounting of the LYS Pai preference for "pressure testing" from the start is right on point.

The "WhooDoo VooDoo" crowd's, regardless of system, aversion to this is ill founded, erroneous and IMO, non-traditional.

Mastery of any art form is a life time endeavor. However, appreaciable skill should be realized and nurtured fairly early on. "Traditionally" martial art systems were just that, systems for fighting conceived and developed during historical periods when simply calling the police, or dialing 911 in the USA, was not an option.

Looking to the modern battle field for comparative time lines I note the following: US Army Infantry School is approx. 13 weeks past Basic Training which is approx. 10 weeks. US Army Ranger School tends to run about 6 months on average (with a phase recycle or two). The US Army Special Forces curriculum, post the SFAS initial qualifying course, is realized in about 12 - 24 months depending on specialty.

What is key is that all the "advanced" military skills schools are based largely on "pressure testing" and to a much larger degree than most civilian MA students would agree to undergo.

In fact, one of the first things done to the students in the modern military schools noted above is to subject them to sleep deprivation and restrict caloric intake (food) in order to elevate the level of pressure-stress they must successfully perform under.

The highest achievement possible for any US military Airborne soldier is to successfully pass the Jump Master School. It is pure, unrelenting pressure with absolutely -0- tolerance for error. The conditions are such that the school (US Army Special Forces Jump Master Course) is actually designed to cause the student to fail the first time through the course.

IME, there is nothing more difficult to do, from a technical and tactical perspective, than successfully "shoot, move and communicate" on the modern battle field. Lethal force with deadly consequences is not an abstract possibility. Rather, it is a repeatedly manifested reality.

As you noted, the frequent incidence of "experienced" TCMA students getting their heads handed to them in a real world encounter is proof positive that cooperative school house play does not result in skills that transfer to real world.

A useful level of MA skill can and will be achieved in a relatively brief amount of time if the learning conditions are right, e.g., pressure testing and the student honestly applies his/herself at all times.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello JF,

Many thanks, you've very successfully drawn the right 'martial' prallels with today's real world environment - drawn from your own high pressure valency background.

IMO this has to be present to fulfill the 'martial' aspect of the martial-arts 'equation'.

To be frank, I believe that some of the resistance to pressure testing these days comes from teachers who have an eye on maintaining their 'status' vis-a-vis their students. They couldn't risk their 'superior' position by encouraging (and teaching) their students to whack them from a very early stage in their training.

There is an issue of character development too as well as physical pressure testing, and this is the most difficult and teacher intensive aspect of the process.

Obviously, different students arrive at the start of the martial Road, with their own unique set of character and personality traits. Under 'pressure' these will differentiate out according to psychological factors that are independent of them being reduced collectively to 'students' - we retain both our common humanity and our unique dispositions regardless of being 'students' in a martial art.

Some will get carried away with their initial and sporadic success, and will have to deal with their inflation being 'popped' when their technical skills don't transfer uniformly across in all situations. Some 'victories' are transient or based only on luck. A hard lesson in itself to learn. They will then have to appreciate the real need to develop refined skills as the basis for further improvement. At this point, some will give up learning, and... rightly so.

Others will feel real fear at pressure, at the potential for failure, and perhaps bring with them learned responses to humiliation (as they may perceive it) from failures in prior learning. They can be reached thru an understanding of how skills develop, reciprocally, with problem-solving pressure testing scenario's.

As close as possible a marriage between form and function.

This will give them the best help to reach inside and draw out their potential. The streets are unforgiving - but the Kwoon is 'safe' - a comfort zone at least 'in potentia'. We need to avoid the construction of abstract comfort zones for our people.

The are many, many, other student scenario's, and the teacher needs a personal relationship with each student of in order to tailor their learning appropriately. This cannot be achieved in a large class or group, and will have very a low success in an inflexible or otherwise dogmatic teaching environ.

On the positive side, this positive pressure-testing approach builds great bonds of comradeship and an understanding of personal limitations - something absent in not a few martial artists.

Known limitations can be worked with - towards real development of character. The unknown - being inaccessible to awareness - is free to generate martial fanatsy in compensation for unconscious anxiety.

[JF Springer]

Steve - I suppose the thing that is most amusing as well as frustrating is the propensity of some alleged 'Sifu' for creating a totally false martial skill development premise and then brain washing their students into believing in the illusion.

IMO, there's not a single art form that doesn't possess an inherent element of substantial risk. Pressure.

Having been exposed to combat art forms spanning several countries and a few continents I know for a fact that no combat system exists in the vacuum espoused by the "School House Warriors."

What laughingly passes for "fights" with the Kwoon Killer crowd is nothing more than one guy being scared and the other glad of it, at best. Mostly just a game of tag with elaborate rules designed to negate the reality of fighting, cr@p.

There really should be a clearly distinguishable banner for teachers and schools that are focused on perpetuating an art form absent the real intent for the sake of preserving a portion of a given culture. There's nothing wrong with such an approach so long as the "mission statement" is clear and honest.

Those of us who do the "real deal" all ready have a banner, it's "Martial Artist." Poseurs and wannabes need not apply.

[Steven T. Richards]

Good points John F.

Aussie John,

Could you highlighet some of the strengths of Chow/Ch gar Tong-Long, and maybe contrast theese with those in the J-L that you train and know of in other Pai?

Just to help move the debate along.

Cheers,

Steve.

[bean curd]

steven - thanks for the reply. phonetics can be a prob, some write fong as fung, so this is where i was confused. one day we will have to talk about the variations of your hung kuen.

jf - an interesting perspective from a military side, though i would say what is good for one is not nec. that for another.

the % drop out from day one week one of spec. is pretty high, and the character looked for is not what most people think.

each part has there role, and it is not a good thing if one does a rec. and gets sprung in a bad a.o. for this you need s.o.p's and then you gotta practice practice practice and hope the taxi is ready when you need them hahaha.

martial arts to a degree is like this and i wouldn't put everyone in the same basket, not everyone wants to be pressure tested, and isn't it really a sifu's responce to ensure they no their students limitations. what are d.s. for lol.

nice converstaion guys,

[jon]

JF Springer
Sorry for starting to drift from the points a little, my sifu is always telling me to pay more attension to whats directly infront of me as well.
I will try and go a little more into the strike and explain the technique in words for anyone else who has never seen or heard of it.
The technique is usualy performed vs strait strikes towards the midsection. It can however also be applied to many other situations.
We will asume for this example that our attacker is using the right arm and punching towards the midsection.
As soon as you judge your attacker is performing the strike you immediatly step forward with your left leg into your opponent crashing down on his strike with your left forarm or even left tiger claw if your able. The wrist in the bridge should be lower than the elbow. You weight must sink so that the attackers arm is pinned accross there body. As soon as your weight is sunk and you feel your opponent being forced backwards use your right hand to strike strait into the attackers jaw using a tiger claw or palm strike.
This is the basics of the strike there are many other details to avoid chances of counters and what not but i wont go to far into detail here.
I hope this was what you asked for, both yourself and Steven are way over my level and it can be quite hard trying to keep up.

[jon]

Steven T. Richards
Thanks for letting me in on your Hung Ga training. Your very fortunate to have studied two great systems in such depth.
On your point about the forms being different from other linages.
This is very common in Hung just as in SPM by the sounds of it, its simply the system is a collection of skills so some people will favor certain aspects of the style over others. Ive also seen some marked difference between different linages but the feeling behind the movement and the general spirit usualy remains the same.

[jon]

Thanks a lot for your input it makes some very interesting reading.
I was also interested in the 'ginger fist' ive heard of this before but never actualy seen or heard how its made.
Could yourself or anyone else on this board let me know exactly what it is and its uses? Also possibly discribe how the fist is formed.
Another thing i was interested in was what schools of SPM there are in Australia to your knowledge? More to the point do any of them teach non Hakka [properly].
Im not about to give up Hung but i would be interested in seeing some SPM first hand. Possibly even trying it on for size.
Thanks for your insights again.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Bean Curd,

I guess that I'm not as 'confident' over the lineage in Hung-Gar as I am in Tong-Long - at least as far as my own learning of it is.
The differences are energetic and structural as well as technical, and, as both you and Jon have said/implied, there are lots of variations out there, its just that some in Chan-Wai's teachings (to me, his hand varied a lot) are 'peculiar'. I still teach Hung to my people, if they request it, but I would not open a HG school, others do it far better than me.

About the pressure testing etc. Yes, its horses for courses - which is how it should be IMO. I'm open enough to acknowledge and respect the different approaches betwen Pai. In debate however, it is very hard not to contrast as well as compare, in order to highlight what may be characteristic of a given Pai.

LYS's teachings were characterised by very high pressure testing, hence his own disciples - the current generation of Hakka elders - value that as essential. In the modern west, it is perhaps less than in his day, but it is part of the fabric of the teaching - as is the very personal relationahip in nurturing the students character and skills. LYS Pai is open to variation, provided that the student/disciple has proven themselves. This takes a lot of the within-Pai strife out of things as all recognise the 'Road' travelled as one highly personal - shaped from common principles and bonds of brotherhood. What you do get is a laid back approach over most things, latitude if you like, and something not characteristic of a dogma bound system.

Regards,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Hung-Gar Jon,

Thanks for your observations, no doubt true. I am sure that Aussie John is the man to answer most of your questions. The Gingerfist usage is interesting - it is the fundamental hand taught in LYS Pai - often a platform for the Phoenix-Eye fist - in multiple 'contact-acceleration' strikes. The whipping 'squeeze-point' focus or raking foreknukle gingerfist is the main aspect that struck (awful pun) Aussie John. It is used as a leaking stike, a pivotal twist on a fixed elbow, many, many usages. It was my late Master Ho-Sing's 'speciality hand'.

So over to you Aussie John, you training in Chow & Chu gives you a better comparritive base than my own.

Regards,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

jf - an interesting perspective from a military side, though i would say what is good for one is not nec. that for another.

*Agreed and I've never advocated for a "one size fits all" model. There's plenty of room for everyone. However, if you're selling oranges don't advertise that you're selling apples.

the % drop out from day one week one of spec. is pretty high, and the character looked for is not what most people think.

*Ah yes, Hollywood versus reality. Sly Stone never would've got a taste of it.

each part has there role, and it is not a good thing if one does a rec. and gets sprung in a bad a.o. for this you need s.o.p's and then you gotta practice practice practice and hope the taxi is ready when you need them hahaha.

*Yeah buddy, nothing like jumping into what Intell confirmed as a "cold" zone only to watch tracers arc up towards you while you're mid-air. Major pucker factor, good for training sphincter control.

martial arts to a degree is like this and i wouldn't put everyone in the same basket, not everyone wants to be pressure tested, ...

*Cool, then those that don't shouldn't be misled into believing they are anything more than a performance artist, at best.

.. and isn't it really a sifu's responce to ensure they no their students limitations. what are d.s. for lol.

*Depends. IME, "limitations" are by and large self-imposed and confined to the mental aspects of a person. The bar also tends to be set way too low as a self-preservation measure. IMO, this is the "great truth" that pressure testing reveals.

[JF Springer]

*Sorry for starting to drift from the points a little, my sifu is always telling me to pay more attension to whats directly infront of me as well.

No problem, this is far removed from a formal class setting, just an informal exchange.

*The technique is usualy performed vs strait strikes towards the midsection. It can however also be applied to many other situations.

Understood, what I refer to as "rolling" as one hand chases the other along the same or similar pathway. A variant of flooding. Is it fair to say the striking hand path of travel from point of origin to impact is in the 90 - 120 degree angle range (relative to the ground)?

* ... you immediatly step forward with your left leg into your opponent crashing down on his strike with your left forarm ...

Understood, JL SPM also tends to advance into the opponent. One setting is to penetrate into the opponent's base of support. Base of support is understood to be a triangular structure consisting of both feet and the invisible line of force articulating from the opponent's actual (as opposed to static anatomical) momentary center of balance to the ground.

* ... The wrist in the bridge should be lower than the elbow.

Point of divergence, let's leave this for later.

* ... You weight must sink so that the attackers arm is pinned accross there body.

Understood, whole body power projected through the bridge. Same outcome, different biomechanical structure in JL SPM. Sufficient to qualify as a mutually present point.

* ... As soon as your weight is sunk and you feel your opponent being forced backwards ...

Point of divergence, let's pick this up later as well.

* ... use your right hand to strike strait into the attackers jaw using a tiger claw or palm strike.

Understood. Could possibly be a variation of "float" where a force is imparted that deprives the opponent of the ability to root. I'm assuming the angle of force of strike is on line with the initial rearward movement of the opponent in response to the first (left handed in your example) bridge. Is this correct?

* I hope this was what you asked for, both yourself and Steven are way over my level and it can be quite hard trying to keep up.

Doubtful I'm over anyone in any way, shape or form. Understood and agreed with regard to Steve.

[jon]

JF Springer

"Is it fair to say the striking hand path of travel from point of origin to impact is in the 90 - 120 degree angle range (relative to the ground)?"
- yes that does sound about right for the angle of the strike.

The bridge in the strike should be made with a forwards sinking momentum so that your body does the sinking as opposed to your arm, otherwise you will find yourself wrestling.
This i also found to be very similar to our training as far as balance and framework go's.

"Base of support is understood to be a triangular structure consisting of both feet and the invisible line of force articulating from the opponent's actual (as opposed to static anatomical) momentary center of balance to the ground."

- I find this interesting becouse you are one of the first other schools i have met who agree's that the centreline is moveable relative to position and the strongest shape is a triangle. A horse stance is actualy a triangle on its base and one of the reasons the stance is so strong from the side. This kind of thinking is vital ime to good defence as it teaches better use of force and mechanics both in attacking and gaurding.

"could possibly be a variation of "float" where a force is imparted that deprives the opponent of the ability to root. I'm assuming the angle of force of strike is on line with the initial rearward movement of the opponent in response to the first (left handed in your example) bridge. Is this correct?"

- That is certainly the aim of the strike to uproot and deprive the opponent of balance. The opponent moving backwards comes more from the sinking of your weight as opposed to 'just' the bridge.
This is not the best way to discribe a technique as they should flow into one another but if you were to break it down into three movements you would see.
Block and ride, sink and crowd then follow though and uproot.
I hope that made some sence i often feel over my head discussing things im only now studying. Still its a good learning experience.

"Doubtful I'm over anyone in any way, shape or form."
- Dont pull that humility on me lol i know better:p
Seriously you guys are great and have given me much to think about and study i thank you both for you time its been a real pleasure to have had this chance.

[jon]

This is a post i had on another thread, following Steven's advice i thought i might move the post over as it does have some relevence to our discussion of preasure and real world usage of martial skill.
This post was originaly intended to prove that kickboxing and ringfighting do not always prepare you for the street.

The kickboxer.
The guy was a kickboxer and boxer and had quite a bit of ring experience under his belt. He challenged another guy who was quite a well known streetfighter over some stupid argument as to the effectivness of training in ANY formal fighting art.
They met [i was there] near a park and the ground was covered in gravel.
The streetfighter ran strait in and grabbed the boxer immediatly kneeing him hard accross the stomach as he pulled him in. As soon as the guy bent down from the blow the streetfighter reached over pulled the guys shirt over his head and began to rain uppercuts and elbows in on the now blind boxer. The boxer lost his footage pretty quickly on the lose gravel and was knocked down. The streetfighter actualy let him go after that as the boxer was basicaly toast. This was also an arranged fight not simply a spur of the moment one.
That fight taught me several things not least of which was be VERY aware of your surroundings and what could happen. I never expected the shirt thing and im sure the boxer never expected it either. It also showed me that people are ruthless on the street and dont care for sportsman ship or morals they simply try and take you appart as quickly as possible its human instinct.


This experience has shown me a lot about the nature of real fighting and ive seen many similar fights since.
The lessen here is you MUST be prepared to use your skills in situtions that dont suit it. You may need to fight with your wrists bound, you may only have access to one leg what happens when your comfort zone is no longer available? The guy in this story was forced into fighting blinded and on lose gravel he certainly was not ready for it and paid the price.
This is where the preasure testing that has been discussed here becomes so very very vital.
Im going to quickly put a quote here from JF Springer who obviously has a LOT of real world experience and again gives insight into what its like to know your in real danger and yet still to do your best anyway.

"*Yeah buddy, nothing like jumping into what Intell confirmed as a "cold" zone only to watch tracers arc up towards you while you're mid-air. Major pucker factor, good for training sphincter control. "

This is the thing, if your trained to deal with the uncomfortable the difficault and the downright seemingly impossible. Your MUCH more likely to come out surviving in these situtions than someone who is used to a set of rules and guidelines.
Just thought i would post that little story from my personal experience as it seemed kind of relevent to our discussion.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Many thanks for kindly taking up the request to move the post over.

My question from the 'prompt' of your post is this:

'Is there a difference between bottom line information processing
(data and hypothesis driven) and, the artificial (second order) structures associated with most martial arts training - eg sensitivity and gate models'?

To further expand: I suggest (as a prompt) ;) that the structures typical of traditional martial arts training can fail badly under minimal real life pressure IF they are not overlain onto a natural template based on perceptual and cognitive/motor information processing.

Also, that the artificial structures (technical methods) that make up martial arts CAN be sucessfully united with a combat 'battle-computer' based on how the human brain actually deals with a stressful information processing environment. If it is not, they the art in question may train people to be disadvantaged outside of the compliant comfort zone structures, so typical of training in a kwoon.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Steve.

[jon]

I would have to agree definately there is a large difference between the two. Its certainly a much more usefull skill to be able to adapt to your surroundings and work on the fly as opposed to having a set of guidlines you try to follow.
There have been many famous masters such as Musashi who were well known for being experts at adaptation. Musashi was known to have used everything from sticks, branchs and even a boat oar as a sword.
The examples you have put forward "sensitivity and gate models" are quite usefull for explaining a movement in general terms but simply wont do for real world application. It 'should' IMO be used as way to learn the theory behind a technique rather than so much the application. Although they are linked, there are marked differences. Application requires such intagible elements as bravery, commitment, relaxation under preasure and a sence of movement and physics. These things can only be experienced, explaining them will only bring the student false security.
Same reason schools who spend all there time defending half speed punches thrown from over a meter away get a false sence of distance and timing. So to if to much is put into these models can you lose sight of how to actualy make it 'work'.
Preasure testing though would of course be a much more complicated issue in a commerical school where its students need to feel like they are getting there moneys worth. The sad fact is most want quick results and dont want to do whats needed to actualy be able to USE what they know, they simply want to perform it. These people believe in the movie star image of kung fu and think they will never be hit as long as they keep paying there fee and have a training card.
In my training im always keen to get hit and stick myself in the line of fire. Im happy to volunter to be the test dummie of a given technique and i dont hold back when i attack. As a result i have a greater understanding of what im doing but ive also been clocked in the head pleanty of times.
This is true training, if you blow a block you SHOULD get hit, if not your partner is holding back on you.
I get annoyed when i see people throwing a punch from several feet away and telegraphing there movements. No one ive ever seen attacks like this. The plain fact is its likely you may get hit before you even realise your fighting. We cant all go out and test our mettle on the street but i certainly would advise average students to take a far more realistic approch to defence. Get in there take a hit every now and again activly look for flaws in your defence and attack mechanics. To many of us believe we are killing machines and the whole world should cower in fear.
I hope i havent gone off on to much of a tangent.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Hung-Gar Jon,

You are right on point, and, I must say that it is refreshing to read such a post from someone who although 'traditional' in the fullest sense of your training, you still have the right eye for common sense and reality.

Would that we all were that way. There is nothing to fear from facing the issues as they really are.

IMO much of the 'second order' problems in martial arts, comes from the well recognised fact that systems train against there own structures, rather than against the basic structure and movement dynamics of the natural human form. Maybe later on, 'experienced' martial arts students will attempt to apply their structures and techniques to forcefull street attack training scenario's, but by then much of the problems have been bedded-in.

IME, it is best done the other way around: firstly deal with natural street attacks and study the human form biomechanically.
Then, process your system and its principles thru that matrix - eventually developing an approach to combating complex structures as typically found in other martial arts systems.

This approach avoids ritualism, abstraction and comfort zones.

If you were to ask someone this question:

'How would YOU beat your own system? ', that would get an interesting response. Mostly people immediately fall back into trained patterns which justify the abstract approach that their 'style' has produced - in other words they fight their style with their style - its what they've trained for - after all...

This is simply another comfort zone, and allows avoidance of questions such as How would another style beat our style?

If it is simply a question of 'style' then teh answer broadly is quite simple, it will be anything that the styles structures and training have not routinely allowed for. That can be an 'opposite' system, or simply a raw street fighters approach (many more posssible examples).

IF though, the style had trained thru a meta-framework that allowed dealing with the morphology of the human shape and its movement potentials - then 'style' as such as a threat or a problem becomes largely secondary. 'Structure' in the opponent is literally undermined by this approach.

In my teaching, I use reaseach data from military psychology, from cognitive and information processing psychology, systems theory, information theory, neurophysiology, biomechanics etc as a basis for building a 'battle-computer' - a cognitive map and command & control system - thru which the 'traditional' styles principles operate and then 'release' appropriate techniques.

A lot of abstract training traditionalists claim that my approach isn't 'traditional'. On the contarry, it came thru an attempt to understand the quite remarkable combat skills of my late Master Ho-Sing. his English was poor, so we communicated thru demonstartion and direct 'feeling' experience. I wanted to know he could do what he did so very well, with minimal fuss and maximum efficiency. He was refined simplicity in execution, true mastery.

I applied a lot of expereince and learning outside of the martial arts to develop the model that I now teach as a meta-framework, and had the privilege of pressure testing it on the streets as a Police Officer.

It isn't 'different' as such to Ho-Sing's way, simply expressed in western scientific language, and made available thru that medium to students in such a way that benefits their understanding and increases their learning curve.

It was Lee-Yin-Sing's way, it characterises his hand, and it can be taught thru a western scientific method without losing its essence.

Most 'structures' fail shortly after initial contact with a determined opponent. Better then to train an innate information processing system that 'runs' the programme for you, releasing techniques appropriately as in 'fire-and-forget'. This allows the brain to scan more consciously for other information and effectively speeds you up mechanically.

The model has been published in books and professional papers.
Space wouldn't allow a full exposition of it here. It does work though, which, happily, is why I can say that I get regularly beaten up by my students

Kindest Regards,

Steve.



:) :)

[mantis-1]

Sorry but this thread has moved along so quick before I could get chance to reply to some questions raised earlier,

Interesting that you say the Saam Bo gin or three step routine is not practiced (as a three step formula) within the lien lineage but similar is incorporated into your long form or 13 roads if I have that correct. I say this as I studied some Jook Lum for a few years before moving onto Chow Gar, I must point out that my knowledge of Jook Lum is very limited as my sifu rarely taught the mantis side of his art separately even though it was incorporated into his combination style. The first form I was taught was the Saam Bo Gin from which I was told was from the wong yuk gong lineage (and for those who are interested it was seen as very important but not the be all and end all of southern mantis although as I understand it within TCMA styles the first form was always seen as very important…and have been told if you can understand the first form you could understand the whole style) and was the three step formula, although when moving to Chow Gar and learning their version of Saam Bo Gin was surprised that it was different in quite a few ways. It did follow the same lines although not as long as the Chow Gar form and the first cycles were the same as in ‘mantis washes it’s wings’, but there was more wrist action within the JL version where as in CG there is an emphasis on straight wrists to allow the energy to reach the finger tips. It wasn’t until I was introduced to the Fut Sau form that I realized the movements that I was now learning I have previously practiced but within the JL Saam Bo Gin, don’t get me wrong as they where not completely the same and the form is nowhere near as long as the Fut Sau. There also was another interesting connection that I noticed reading Andrews posts. The reeling silk post and connections to Tai Chi, as people who have learn’t the Fut Sau might know there is a move Golden Cokrel stands on one leg (whether it is know as this within SPM I am not sure) but is found throughout many Tai Chi styles…Also Aussie John mentioned ‘The soft side did not kick in until a few years later with circular and spiral palming techniques, and side stepping entry techniques.’ this I find interesting as there is a saying in Tai Chi ‘to seek the straight form the curve’ and I think is a reference to using spiraling motions to create power.
Andrew you mention a move from your system, and asked the question is there something similar in SPM it sound very similar to Bao Jong with the idea that you collapse the bridge or attack of your opponent and at the same time collapse their lungs not literally but more in the sense of winding your opponent before unleashing more of your arsenal. Sorry I haven’t posted this earlier and I don’t know if it even helps the conversation anymore but I thought I should contribute. And to anyone who is just about to rip into me I am not saying this is what SPM is or what it is about this is just what I have noticed and learn’t whilst studying within these styles.
Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread as I have gained even more insight into the style i love to train aswell as learing about other pai's within the SPM umbrella, keep it up...sorry i had to spell cokrel wrong but the censor's man what can i say

[jon]

Good on you for joining in, its always interesting to have another comparison.

"And to anyone who is just about to rip into me I am not saying this is what SPM is or what it is about this is just what I have noticed and learn’t whilst studying within these styles."

No one will say that to you unless there trying to troll, your experience is just that... as long as you continue to post in the same respectfull way none of us will ever have a problem with it.
How long did you train is your SPM for?
Have you studied any other systems besides spm and if so how did they compare?
Do you have anything to add to our 'preasure testing debate'?
How was application taught in your school?
Just a couple of questions to get you posting;)
Jon

[jon]

Thank you kindly for your insights, your real world experience has obviously taught you a lot and im very impressed with the way you have picked up your system.
My instructor was in a similar boat, his instructor also spoke no english. Leaving learning up to being tranlated by seniors and simply testing the art in application. As a result he has what i would consider and advanced view on application. He has simply broken movements down to angles and stratgies whereby eliminating the 'must be this way' aspect of much traditional training. Form is form but fighting with the art requires a different skill and a big part of the skill is ripping the art appart and putting it back together again. People who try to fight using form are always limiting themselfs and in real life will likely not apply the movement they are trying.
This is not to say movements are not taught orginaly as a traditional structure but we are also taught to execute the same movement in multiple situtions and stances. A good example of this is sparring using only 2-3 techniques against an opponent using a full arsnel. This gives you the ability to addapt your technique on the fly and have to actively FIND ways to make it work.
This kind of problem solving and forced restriction bring the student to a level where they can litteraly make up there game on the fly. It also means students dont get so sucked into the trap of using the same movements over and over and turing there technique into a stale form of 'if you do this, ill do that'.

I also like your thoughts on breaking down a structures strong and weak points. I have found a similar thing where many are totaly unwilling to even comprehend the idea that there defence may not be fool proof and they may have a harder time dealing with certain attacks or stratergies.
This is sad becouse in a funny way its this that keeps me going, i love to find the strong points and weakness in any system as to me this is where it gets interesting. By favoring one skill do we automaticaly lose another? Are certain groups of skills so opposite they totaly conflict? Why do some learn one skill easily and another takes years?
These are the sorts of questions which interest me, they encourage us to look at what we do and why we do it. By understanding what works for us and what we are personality wise, we begin to truely make our chosen art our own.

Also Steven you have mentioned your books and papers, where might i find copys of either? They both sound like they would be excerlent reads.

[JF Springer]

- yes that does sound about right for the angle of the strike. The bridge in the strike should be made with a forwards sinking momentum so that your body does the sinking as opposed to your arm, otherwise you will find yourself wrestling.

Whole body power, the mechanics are different in how this is achieved, but the outcome is the same. HG and JL SPM get to the same place via different routes. Let's stay with the similarities for the time being. Within the current discussion the example points to both systems based, at least in part, on the production of power through a whole body kinesthetic chain.

-This i also found to be very similar to our training as far as balance and framework go's.

Seeds of the system. Recurring themes, structures, dynamics, biomechanics, tend to be indicative of the system's seeds or most fundamental components. Arguably, the seeds alone are what is important as everything else falls into the personal preference of expression bracket.

- I find this interesting becouse you are one of the first other schools i have met who agree's that the centreline is moveable relative to position and the strongest shape is a triangle.

Two points of clarification. 1-I don't speak for the Lee Yin Sing Pai. I might, on occasion, speak about the system, but Steve's the only one on board with the authority to speak for the LYS Pai. 2-I have a different model of "centerline" and it is not interchangeable with what I understand as the "dynamic" center of balance. A body in motion has a center of mass, or balance point, that shifts continuously in response to said motion. In broad terms, at any point in time the center of mass equals the center of balance. In general, this point shifts from the lower tan tien when relatively still to the mid-tan tien when in motion.

Many southern systems employ triangular structures. It seems reasonable to me that it is not always understood, or expressed, as such because of nomenclature. In short, nothing remotely novel in my declaration.

-A horse stance is actualy a triangle on its base and one of the reasons the stance is so strong from the side.

Agreed.

-This kind of thinking is vital ime to good defence as it teaches better use of force and mechanics both in attacking and gaurding.

Then can you accept that a "stance" is but a moment framed in time and space? What does this tell you about your base?

- That is certainly the aim of the strike to uproot and deprive the opponent of balance. The opponent moving backwards comes more from the sinking of your weight as opposed to 'just' the bridge.

Different understanding of the term bridge. 3 points make up a bridge, you, me, the point of contact. IME, the bridge is not just the physical link between two bodies. The bridge is also the conduit through which force is issued and/or received. In JL SPM we “spit” (issue) whole body force and we “swallow” received force through the entirety of our structure (whole body). In Hung Gar you are accomplishing the same thing via different body mechanics. There is no "just" the bridge as that would imply an appendage somehow detached from the whole.

-This is not the best way to discribe a technique as they should flow into one another but if you were to break it down into three movements you would see.

For our purposes it is useful to reduce the chain to a series of links and examine each link individually. Comparisons based on fully integrated movements are never productive outside of actual hands on experiences.

-Block and ride, sink and crowd then follow though and uproot.
I hope that made some sence i often feel over my head discussing things im only now studying. Still its a good learning experience.

Okay. Would you feel comfortable purging the word "block" from your vocabulary? "Block" is reactive in nature as a person blocks something that is threatening. Can you accept that you either "close" or "open" your opponent's structure? If so, you automatically assume the mental-emotional perspective of being proactive. You become the initiating agent rather than the countering respondent.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Mantis-1,

Very interesting. I note that you are from the UK?
Re SBG and Jook-Lum (Wong-Yuk-Gong Pai) it may depend on your Si-Fu and Si-Gung. As I understand it, Fik-Sau is the fundamental set in the UK WYG Pai. It looks similar to some versions of SBG and does contain the three step formula.

Re GM Lee-Lien, and the long Lee-Yin-Sing Pai form, the three step formula is in the beginning of the 13 Roads.

The Fann-Sau set which we consider to be a fundamental if not basic set has three three step sections with two three step turn-arounds. Each 'step' has nine hand techniques. This set derives from Master Ho-Sing's hand. It is common for sets or sub-sets to be specific to a particular Si-Fu within this Pai. However, the 13 Roads is the main-frame form.

Hung-Gar Jon,

Thanks for your insights and comparissons. You seem to have had a good Si-Fu and Si-Gung. A great blessing.

For me, the breakdown is where the art is really learnt - even if still in an abstract form (at that stage). In the 13 Roads, once the sequence is learned, each 'step' becomes the focus for analyis. However, it is in application that the informational code latent in the 'form' becomes real.

Connection with the essence of the art is a 'communion' between
the material-physical individual and the transcendent guiding principles of the system. It can be a kind of epithany - something that has to be achieved to be understood.

I'll mail you off-line re the books (so I don't get accused of self-promotion;) ) I can e-mail you the published professional papers.

John F.

John, you've done a great job (again!) at developing the fundamentals of the debate. You can speak for this Pai, you have GM Lee's acknowledgement and blessing.

Your comments on whole-body ging are spot on - it is that which often leads to knocking down the opponent, rather than a dead bridge, with stiff, locked joints (specifically the shoulder). In our Pai the power chain is alive and 'spits' most effectively.

Back to Hung-Gar Jon, re the triangulation, base and centreline, this is worth a discussion all on its own.

In LYS's Pai, the stance is a stable but transitional artillerly platform - a fire base - so - if 'nothing' is being 'done' as such, then, there is no postured stance - as such. In combat there is no need to 'walk' the horse, only to root apropriately - 'apropriate' being the key. In the end, ritualised steps as can be found sometimes in training the basics for beginners have no functional place. A run is a run, a walk is a walk- naturally so, but rooting into the target to release the power chain is another thing altogether.

As with good Hung-Gar however, the stance is also used as a ramming and jamming technique, the mobility and turning forces of the leg joints being involved in leg-trap and contact engagements co-ordinated with the whole-body bridge.

We take out the centre-line indirectly (sometimes), spinning the vertical axis of the body by striking the shoulders. The opponent then falls down his own axis by spiralling out of control.
It should be remembered of course - that combat is dynamic and interactive with relative positions changing all the time. The physics of contact and balance change accordingly. Centre-line - centre-line contact is not always reflective of the real situation.
Training that emphasises this (centre-line) is OK IF the protagonists remain relatively static and simply rotate about their vertical axis awhilst remaining 'engaged' centre-on to one another. This doesn't happen that often, or indeed for very long in real combat.

If the vertical axis, passing thru the centre of mass and dynamic balnace is 'knocked out' of alignment with the body - then the body MUST fall in the direction that the axis is moving.

A horizontal line that bi-sects the vertical axis of the opponent may be the 'centre-line' as an attacking vector - and is sometimes meant as such both in Tong-Long and in other styles. As John Spinger suggests, classification of terms doesn't always carry across, nor indeed have the same meaning in different contexts.

The incoming vector althogh horizontal may be off-centre with respect to the vertical axis. Its relative angle may vary too; variously uplifting or sinking.

nevertheless, off-centre attacks spin this vertical axis most efficiently.


Cheers,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Actually, your so called late post answers no previously raised questions whatsoever. What you do is claim various lineage, state no Sifu, fail to quantify your time in any system, and your profile reflects that you haven't a name.

What your post does do is rehash the worn out Som Bo Gin issue with your claim of WYG's line having a set called SBG in direct conflict with Steve Richard's understanding that they do not.

So, taken as a whole your rather lengthy and rambling post along with your complete lack of personal and training information makes you out to be yet another in a continuing line of Trolls from a source known to some of us.

Rather than continue to operate under a cloud of suspicion via your "mystery man" presentation why don't you just be a brave lad and tell us who you are, who your Sifu is, and exactly what experience you have. You can start with your Kwongsai Jook Lum Tong Long Sifu.

Since you claim to be in the UK you might want to contact Steve Richards off list via E-mail if you believe, for whatever reason, that your privacy is sacrosanct.

You can do this can't you? If you can’t then perhaps you should reconsider the merits of your posting on an open forum and take your Troll trash elsewhere.

[fiercest tiger]

I have a quick question, it may not be relavent in here but ill ask anyways.

In SPM do you use Auto kinematic Reactions?

What im saying do your forms sometimes follow a pattern that if you struck the body in a certain way it reacts to the strike so that you follow up technique will work? Kinematic reactions are a result of attacking the bodies nervous system, which will give you a responce eg: Attacking the right eye with a finger jab, will bring the oponents hands up to the face and make them turn there body to the right, thus leaving open the left side of the body! Sometimes the kidneys maybe exposed or the spleen, the leg for an attack.

If knowing how the opponent responds to certain attacks you know there defence, therefore you opponent has no defence to your attack.

sorry for rambling, i dont know if i have made sense here for you to answer my question!:(

take care guys

Garry:)

[JF Springer]

I refer to your model as "programmed intelligent response" from the proactive-attacking end of the equation and "loading" from the opponent struck side of things.

Seems many-most people recognize certain patterns in response to continual or often repeated exposure to a set of circumstances. If I strike a person in the liver with downing force they tend to momentarily collapse or undergo torso sag to the struck side. That effectively loads some part of their body into a specific area.

The programmed response is to immediately rip through the area where a body tends to load in response to kinesthetic feedback telling me that contact through the liver area was made.

If I encounter force on a side of my bridge my hands know where to go. A matter of repeated drill under increasingly more dangerous circumstances. Pressure testing in a sense or reality testing if you prefer. Likewise if I strike a target my hands know where the next opening probably is.

I say probably because I don't buy into absolutes. The possibility of some thing happening outside of previous experience-exposure is a good thing IMO. Combats "martial constipation" or the "I've been everywhere, done everything" syndrome. Potentially fatal disease.

It's one thing to trust in your method, training and skill and quite another to be so full of $hit as to be blind to reality.

Steve can tell you whether or not this is something "preached" by the LYS Pai. I came to it from repeated exposure to the phenomena. Tends to have me moving into the most likely open target post first contact.

IME, any target struck tends to result in a fairly standardized reaction pattern. One of the things we do as TCMA is train in a different set of responses, e.g., pressure and attack in response to attack whereas the "natural" response is to withdraw. You know the deal.

[fiercest tiger]

Thats why i think its important for people to understand the workings of the body, so when they have struck a cleaner follow up will occur , well we hope!

i would rather be the cause not the effect:D

[JF Springer]

Agreed on the need or requirement to know-understand how the human body acts and reacts. The LYS Pai places a premium on "pressure testing" as the psychological component is equal to if not greater than that of the physical body.

Of course, this requires people to step outside their comfort zone, toss the bull$hit myth that they have, or will ever have, an impenetrable blocking system, accept that at times even their best efforts will not produce the results they desire yet they must continue, reject the notion that it's possible to fight by formula, accept that pain and damage are transitory in nature, etc.

It's the basic premise that in order to function in the real world a person must train real world. IMO, too many people are prone to what Steve characterizes as the "Dances in Trances" mentality. That somehow, some day, an uncritical, mindless repetition of some set of movements will result in real martial skill being magically unleashed.

Agreed on the proactive bit as well. IMO, the entire concept of "self-defense" is cr@p and promotes a passive attitude that will get a person hurt more times than not. Real, authentic, traditional TCMA are highly refined systems of producing destructive force of a significant magnitude, period.

That means damaging the opponent, controlling the opponent, and dictating the course of action across all parameters possible from jump street.

[sleeper]

Mr. Springer, since you are a "Video Correspondence" student of LYS-JL,
who "pressure tests" you?

[jon]

I started this thread with the intent of learning some more about southern mantis and discussing issues of interest with real martial artists.

Seeing as your provinding no information, have no profile and are just here to try and start trouble.
Please reframe from posting on this thread again... Its not my forum and im not the boss. So im just going to ask nicely from one martial artist to another can you do that for me?
I dont care about your winging and i dont care about anyone else who only wants to start trouble and has no face to back it up.
Please dont ruin what ive tried hard to create.
Thank you Sleeper, im sure you will understand.:D

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Jon,

Thanks for keeping us on track. As for Sleeper, simply scroll thru his previous posts and you see the Troll trend clearly.

Fiercest Tiger,

Hi FT you raise a very good point, and I must agree with John F's response. Both of the models raised by yourselves describe a 'live' approach to combat computation under pressure. This is where the art is 'at' in our Pai.

What should be appreciated is that no claim to this method being the 'only' way is being made. It is simply that any comparisson of method or technique necessitates a contrast also. In context however, it is the way employed in our Pai.

FT, I'd be very interested to learn more about your studies, and your training in MA. Many thanks for an informatibve contribution.

Regards,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Mr. Springer, since you are a "Video Correspondence" student of LYS-JL, who "pressure tests" you?

-Wrong, you're information is much like you, totally screwed up. Since we're on the subject of video tape I've seen your stuff. Terrible cr@ap, looks like really bad Gojuryu, at best. Might be okay for going against weak old men who really aren't fighters and pathetically weak, d*o*r*k boys who are scared.

-Back to the subject: What's your name (remember, check your driver's license, then say LOSER in order to properly identify yourself), who's your teacher, and what's your lineage?

-If you ever get your back problem straightened out, you know, the 4 inch wide yellow streak running down the middle of your back, you are welcome to come "pressure test" me.

[fiercest tiger]

please feel free to email me anytime, my email is on my website, or simply private message me if you like.

i like spm very much as it kinda shares similar theories and principles to ykm and bak mei, although i have only seen chow gar through a friend and a couple of his tapes.

i would love to see LSP OR jooklum as well, is there any videos out you recommend?

JF,
Forget ralek he isnt anything and if it does happen you will only be going to court after you hurt him!

all the best guys:)

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi FT,

Aussie John Lee (I think you have his contact details?) He is in Sydney and has some tapes available of LYS Pai Jook-Lum Tong-Long. He gets a lot of requests though, so maybe if I could suggest oferring him a blank tape and maybe a bit towards his copying time?

Great I'll be in touch off forum.

Kindest Regards,

Steve.

[fiercest tiger]

Ill email aussie john regarding the tapes, if thats cool with him on the tape bizz!

i'll try and hook up a time to meet up and maybe have yum cha with aussie john when he has time!?

what does LSP TONG LONG have in common with bak mei, fau, chum, tung , toe? Hum hung batt boy?

im after more info and help on bettering my knowledge regarding principles that are the same or similar in fashion to ykm bak mei.

thanks again mate:)
FT Garry

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi FT,

Aussie John, 'Ah-Jong', will help I'm sure. He's a great fellow and very helpful. About the Hakka principles that you mention, they are in LYS Jook-Lum/Hakka Tong-Long: as for use IME the terms sometimes cross-over and sometimes mean very specific things depending on a contextual emphasis. when you see the tape you'll get some idea of what I mean. GM Lee-Lien says that if the Gow-Mah horse, rounded back, sunken chest, Float-Swallow, Sink and Spit, together with Gin-Tan-Ging are 'there' then Tong-Long is 'there' regardless of Pai.

On that foundation, other principles, of action, of tactics and application, may distinguish LYS's approach. Without debate - people will never know, which is why Jack Springer and I are trying to be open and encourage others to share too.

What can happen is that a few aspecst of a system can become well known publicly and then they can be used as a kind of defining currency, so that it can seem that is all there is to an art or Pai. What then follows is a mud-slinging match with people claiming that their knowledge/information on an art is the ONLY information or knowledge and anything different isn't real or otherwise kosher.

I am set completely against that attitude, although, I can respect it as perhaps appropriate in a specific context. NOT however on a debating forum, a place for debate - by definition. If people post simply to troll or shut up access to information then that must be resisted.

I have never personally experienced YKM Kung-Fu, although I have plenty of time and respect for Bak-Mei, which I first encountered utterly destroying my admittedly (at the time) limited Wing-Chun training in the early 1970's. It seems an intelligent and well integrated system - a real fighters art. I like it very much.

In the UK, the Lee-Yin-Sing Jook-Lum Pai often also train in Bak-Mei from Master Lee-Sun-Chuen (LYS & Bak-Mei). They also share teachings with the UK Wong-Yuk-Gong Jook-Lum Pai as one Pai: 'Tong-Long-Pai'. Pak-Mei is respected by our Pai.

Be gald to hear more of your treaining and experince,

Respect,

Steve.

[fiercest tiger]

howdy,

my ykm training started back in 86 so im fairly new to it, before that i dabbled in other styles and i fought in fullcontact kung fu and kickboxing tourneys:rolleyes: ykm is bak mei kung fu just different name, we share the same core forms and fighting theories and principles!!

I practised alot of hapkido when i was young for 4 years or so, wingchun, thai/kick boxing etc There was something missing in all the styles and i understood it was tradition, and not one had a complete system.

I have travelled back and forth from hong kong and guangzhou learning ykm and bak mei off my elders in the 1990 learning more on my arts. My sifu passed away 2 years ago, i bai shee under him.

The hakka arts intrest me because they are so **** hard to master compared to some other system. The posture and power generation in the systems are fantastic as well as the feeling hands work.

thanks again

[jon]

Sorry for taking a while to get back on track...

JF Springer
"Okay. Would you feel comfortable purging the word "block" from your vocabulary? "Block" is reactive in nature as a person blocks something that is threatening. Can you accept that you either "close" or "open" your opponent's structure? If so, you automatically assume the mental-emotional perspective of being proactive. You become the initiating agent rather than the countering respondent."
- This is a very good point... Block is a poor choice of words for the action we are discribing. The term 'close' you have given is much more fitting for our current model. I also liked your previous discriptions of a centre of balance shifting in space and how this affects balance and stance, it got me thinking. My own conclusions for this is its the reason why Hung is so big on stance and grounding. This way your aware constantly of your own balance point and how it is relative to your opponent. It takes a long time to get to such a level but once reached your striking power as well as your defence is benifited by such a strong base. I also appreciate discriptions ive heard from you and Steve of the stance being a mobile artiliry platform, this also makes a lot of sence.
That said stance should be alive, a dead stance is slow to move from and is not relative to the situation at hand. Stance should imo be a method of finding your centre of gravity and obtaining more power or balance. Its more a theory thing than an exact movement. A horse stance in a clasical sence is not a combat stance its a building stance so that the body realises the benifits of being low and stable.
This is really just my opinions and i cant speak for the whole of Hung.

[jon]

Just thought i should point out...
I tend to post to people by name but the post is in no way supposed to be limited in who its read or replied by.
Please feel free anyone to comment on anything i have said not just JF Springer. I addressed it to him becouse he has been participating in this avenue of discussion.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi FT Garry,

You've served your time no doubts. Sorry about your late Si-Fu.
Very interesting background. Hope that you can hook up with Aussie John sometime - a real nice fellow with loads of experince and an open heart.

Cheers Friend,

Steve.

Hi Hung-Gar Jon,

Good post. The combat use of stances in Hung-Gar is not something that seems to be always taught. The artillery platform is the basis but also there is the ramming and jamming methods and the Sei-Ping-Dai-Mah has its place there too.

Cheers Friend.

Steve.

[Richard mantis]

Hey there all Hakka Mantis practioners. I am glad to see the new private forum up and running! It looks great!

So those of you who got the secret password please
start posting. I am looking forward to some great
private discussions!!

TROLL FREE!

Rich

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Rich,

See you there, Respect & Regards to GM Mark and the Pai.

Steve.

[mantis-1]

Steve,
Within your branch of JL when u train the forms do you train the power generation at the same time or are there seperate exercises for that. Like how in CG SPM in the first form SBG there is an emphasise on bringing the energy out from the chest to the fingers (ji lik) along with specific exercises such as chy sau and many different chongs.

Many Regards
Mantis-1

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Mantis-1

Thank you for your question.

The power generation is embedded in the 'form' at least as most of the Dip-Gwut is concerned. Ho-Sing's pai (sub-pai within LYS J-L) really empahsises the shoulders along with the waist and feet to generate the Tan-Ging.

There are chong's and some Chy-Sau, but, les so than is found in Chow's Tong-Long Pai.

For us, the power-chain is 'in application' as that is were it must be manifested in real combat. The whole body Ging must work efficiently and be practiced for delivery - rather than abstractly thru exercises. In western Sports science this idea is supported by the finding that skills have to be as close as possible to the actual action, in order to be efficiently trained. There is a danger that abstract training simply makes us better at abstract training and doesn't carry over. However, this is NOT to say that abstraction is not effective - it is simply a matter of a different emphasis. It seems to me that they ALL work and are ALL effective in their own way. Part of a very rich tapestry of culture.

Aussie John Lee could answer more specificaly as he is experienced in both Pai.

Best Regards,

Steve.

[geordiesteve]

intresting read :rolleyes:

[Lam Tong Long]

Yeah, defo mate. I was interested by:

"Ho-Sing's pai (sub-pai within LYS J-L)"

which has subsequently been denied and then attempted to be cast onto Ho Sing's real followers as a means of berrating them??????

Seems the story changes dependant on what motives were driving the writer at any given time......

[AdrianChanWyles]

A student of mine use to train with Sifu Tony Leung in the UK. Apparently Tony Leung is/was the lineage senior to Sigong Ip Shui's system of Chow Gar Praying Mantis - not Sifu Paul Whitrod. But out of respect for the Chow family Sifu Leung would not call his system 'Chow Gar', but rather 'Steel Wire Praying Mantis'. I also notice that Sifu Whitrod is also now an expert in the followng martial arts;

Chow Gar Praying Mantis
Arness (Filipino Sticks)
Kalaripayit (South India martial arts)
Crabi Crabong (Muay Thai weaponry)
Taiji Quan
Bagua
Xingyi

[AdrianChanWyles]

Hello, I'm persuing Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, a Hakka art. It was developed by Chao, Kuang Yin in 960 AD just after he founded the Song dynasty. It is a northern long fist style. Eventually, a Southern system was developed as well, most likely developed in the Southern Song. There is a Monkey system as well. From what I have deciphered, it looks like the system was perfected by the Ming dynasty.

I know that the Chao family were close to the ruling family of the Ming, and held cabnet positions similar to congressmen, governers and Senators of our country. When the Manchurians conquered the Ming, the Chao family ran south with the Ming's royal family and became the Hakka.

Now that the history is out of the way, I am looking for any and all contact with practitioners and teachers of authentic Tai Tzu (Chao Family Fist). I am in contact with several right now, only one I really trust and I would like to establish relations with otheres. ESPECIALLY members of the Chao family, if possible. I only write and speak American English, so I know it may be difficult, but there was one Chao member here for a wile, until his death in 1996, so I am hopeful more will also speak English.

Can anyone help shed some light on contact info or history, or just Hakka info in general?

Royal Dragon

I am not a Tai Tzu practitioner, but would like to thank you for your information. I also practice a form of Northern Longfist that has been passed down to the south, again by Hakkas - but this time in the Chan family. My research has shown that Hakka arts are far more numerous than just the southern adaptation of Praying Mantis, which has a very short history. The Hakkas have been fighting for thousands of years - either in the north, or down south - where the word Hakka originated.

[hellhound]

I know the senior student from my SPM school has tons of information he wants to publish. He just has not gotten around to it. I was supposed to help him with it since I am a software engineer however I am now disabled from chronic pain and no longer attend that school (at home IMA for me sadly, luckily I have experience from a rough upbrining, not lucky about the upbringing although). I'm sure he'll get it up one of these days. Someone else was going to help him anyway. He really wants to make it more known so in a bit of time I am sure he will have some part of that goal reached.

[greendragon]

you all talk so much that you may never have to fight or train, just talk.
Kwong Sai Jook Lum
thumb behind finger, not on top.