Back Foot Power Generation (heel or toe)

[Water Dragon]

This is for the folks who deliver power shots out of a bow stance. Do you drive off of your heel, or the ball of your foot?

Me, I think the "classic" way torquing out of the heel gives better stability but it doesn't allow you to fully commit to your punches. For me, torquing out of the ball of the foot allows full commitment, sends the force into my kua more efficiently, and gives more of a spiral in the momentum.

Looking forward to your thoughts/opinions.

[Crimson Phoenix]

HHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLL...or even better, the whole foot...

[Water Dragon]

Now how in the hell do you pull that one off? :confused:

[fa_jing]

I'm expanding the discussion to include those who don't straighten the back leg, ie. Wing Chun. I notice the tendency when I am sparring to push off on the toe, rotating the back leg. I feel I am reaching at this point. Obviously it increases your reach on your cross, and the fact that Western boxers punch this ways shows that you can still generate a lot of power. However, I think you generate even more power leaving the foot on the ground, especially if you are rooting and using a vertical fist. I've tested this on the heavy bag. Additionally, I have to think that you'll be more stable, and your next step will be more fluid if you leave your foot on the ground. Also, I don't favor putting so much weight on the front leg. But, I am aware that many do favor precisely this, so, let's hear about it!
-FJ

[Ky-Fi]

Jeez Water Dragon, I hate to be a jerk and post a link to your own lineage to answer your question :), but:

http://www.williamccchen.com/3nails.htm

I don't have much more experience with CC Chen other than reading that article and attending one of his afternoon workshops, so I'm sure there's a lot of details I'm missing, but I found his "three nails" theory to feel really natural, powerful and rooted, and I've adopted it. I know others speak of the "bubbling well", and some people name more than 3 points, but the 3 points he details in the article just feel completely right to me, and I always try to have them in contact with the ground for the techniques.

[rogue]

Until the other guy stops trying to hit me, I'll say toe like a boxer.

Anyway it's the leg and hip that generates the power.

[Water Dragon]

William CC Chen mechanics are more based on pulling from the front foot and utilising the "kua". Unfortunately, since I've taken up Shuai Chiao, I haven't had time to advance in the system. I'm adding this back power into what Master Chen has already given me. Pivoting on the ball let's me hit a lot harder, and feeds into what the school has given me.

I'm the type who likes to get all the info I can on various methods. Hence, the reason for this thread.

[Yum Cha]

Pak Mei - heel. Very important.

Boxers - watch old Ali tapes, THE Man when it comes to footwork. Dances like a butterfly on his toes, stings like a bee flat footed.

Heel off the ground provides a "shock absorber" at that end of the chain that robs the power from the fist once it hits. Calf muscles aren't stronger than a planted heel. Thats the teaching of our style, for what it's worth.

[Brett Again]

Flat footed is best, IMO. The "up on the toe" posture has always seemed to me like a subconscious attempt to add a few inches in height to the kick. I feel it detracts from the power of the kick as well as the stability of the supporting leg.

On a side note, how does one kick from the heel only (not flat foot?) That sounds very awkward. Or do you mean flat footed but with the root focused through the heel?

[crumble]

I agree with rogue. Stay mobile on the toes, except when the guy is unbalanced enough that he can't really fight back. Then root with the less-mobile heel and blast them.

In general, staying on the toes makes it easier to add more "dropping" into the punch. The whole torso can get into it. And it's more mobile...

But adding lots of back leg through the heel seems more powerful because the whole body is moving into the fist. In an ideal heel-initiatited punch, you might be able to get the body moving forward with the back foot, and then add some front foot (once your weight is over the front foot). Very powerful, but less mobile, a commitment.

-crumble

[Brett Again]

Duh! I misread the post... thought it was about foot position in kicking. Didn't catch my error until I read Crumble's post.

For punching, I say "Both, or either, depending on distance." I move on flat feet, but with a preference for keeping my body "toe-weighted" for mobility. When my punch begins, it will be with a flat foot, heel centered. If it's a short jab or palm or a close uppercut, I will stay heel focused. I seem to get better short power this way. If it's a long jab or far reaching round house, during the execution I will tend to pivot through my shoulders and hips and on to my toe, which seems to give me maximum power, speed and extension at distance.

I don't know if that made sense to anyone but me... but to me it was brilliant!!:D

[Crimson Phoenix]

Actually, when you punch in boxing, you twist on the ball of the foot corresponding to the punching hand (very obvious with a hook) while plant the heel of the other leg...so in boxing you use both!!
But remember, WD's example was "power punching from a bow stance , and in that case there's no doubt for me that the heel turning is mandatory and ball of foot is a no-no.

[Water Dragon]

Crimson phoenix is correct in regards to what I'm doing with the back foot. I'm not starting in front stance, I end up in it. I was taught to walk around the guy (not boxers footwork) step in and unload off the front foot. I'm trying to add in the back leg as an additional force vector. For me, the key point would be that the back leg needs to assist in driving the kuas closed. What I'm most interested in are disadvantages to this vs driving out on the heel of the back foot. Again, the front foot remains planted into the 3 nails.

[Jaguar Wong]

For cross, and overhand type striaght on shots it's the heel for me, but for lead hand strikes (somtimes the jab - it's just not as ingrained into my arsenal yet), especially hooks, and elbows, I use the ball of the lead leg (I use the ball of the rear leg for jabs and snapping backfist/hand strikes, though). Also, praying mantis tends to use both as well. Especially when you're highly aggresive (shuffling forward with your strikes). It's a good mix, but it really depends on the strike.

I've seen (actually felt in some cases) some crazy power increases with the heel "stomp/plant" used in Hsing I, and white eyebrow. But I've also been tagged very hard with some quick boxing-style strikes (lead hand) with the guy using the ball of his foot.

So I say both ;)

[Brett Again]

I was taught to walk around the guy (not boxers footwork) step in and unload off the front foot.

Could you explain this more clearly for me? I'm not getting the concept visually.

Tx.

[Starchaser107]

heel for more power or push , stability

toe for more speed and snapping, though less stable and prone to sweeps...so the more speed the better.

[Suntzu]

when I was a young lad, TKD taught ball, now, kuoshu teaches heel. Muscle memory still goes to ball. When I'm sparring, I never looked but mu guess is that I'm on the ball.