Mastery of Mind, Body and Spirit

[Mr Nunchaku]

I like asking people why they take the martial arts. I have discovered that one gets from the martial arts what he/she takes. Meaning, you will only get what you want from taking a martial art. Some take it for self defense, some even think that self defense is all the martial arts are about. Some take it for physical fitness. While all these are good and you will learn this, there is so much more to the martial arts (as I'm sure you all know).

Beyond that there is becomming a better human being in almost every way. Then there is having the spirit of a warrior and the mind of a wise man. A fighting spirit controlled by self discipline.

Then there is the curriculum that martial arts teach. I have a philosophy. If there are any two true martial artists out there, that take completely different styles (aikido and tae kwon do for instance), then given enough time, they will eventually each know the same things. In the end all arts become one. My point is that we should not dismiss any style and not think of any style as superior or inferior. Our goal should be to learn all.

This also goes for weapons and barehanded. We should not limit ourselves to just one. We should experience the equal wonders of both.

Comments?

[Nexus]

Not to come off cynical, but perhaps you are over-analyzing?

The martial arts are a form on the road to formlessness.

[Mr Nunchaku]

No, that is exactly the kind of discussing I want to hear.

[Mr Nunchaku]

However, IMO, I believe that there are people who take martial arts just for self defense when I think the martial arts are much more. Becoming a martial artist is becomming a better person, that is what I believe.

[norther practitioner]

Health.....
Think about it. If you say that you take MA for self defence, then you are taking it for health reasons. You get beat up, you are not in as good of health as you were. Spirituality, this is mental health, you do get a work out (or should at least) this is fitness, which usually improves health. Oh, and not to mention chi flow.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Yes, good point.

[Black Jack]

I disagree and think that the all roads lead to the same path martial philosophy is very overrated and not true.

Different martial systems have different philosophies, different overall life agendas, different psychological outlooks and different goals towards personal survival.

Beyond those aspects alone are the personal aspects of the man or women training in those methods and what their personal agendas may be.

Aikido is not Bando, Pa Kua is not TKD, Shorin-Ryu Karate is not Shuai Chaio, Tai Chi Ch'uan is not Western Military Combatives and so on and so on.

Each has it's own essentials of unarmed combat, tactical development and signature taste. These imbedded principles have a certain cause and effect on the person training in these systems, both in how they attack and defend and how they percieve unarmed combat in all its formats.

I research martial studies for self defense and the sheer love of learning.

Nothing more and nothing less.

I will be wise when the time comes, other than that, I just have time to enjoy what is around me.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Well said.

[Cody]

It's not just martial arts, it's life that you refer to. A lot of what you get out of it has to do with what you bring to it, plus a willingness to experiment.
However, I don't think there is anything the matter with having a purpose for doing something and not caring much for other aspects. Mr. Nunchaku, you might see it as missing out; someone else might see it as being expedient or satisfying an immediate need to meet challenges in enironment or self. The person is doing what is necessary for that time according to vision, need, and ability. There is the possibility that a person might discover something wonderful in self and the arts via training and pursue it, but still not want to experience every weapon or form. I agree with Nexus. And, with that state of mind, all the forms and weapons which you would want to experience without limit, might not be necessary (and possible) for a person with that mindset to study, at no loss to them really. Thinking that way does not imply that a person would not want to learn a system, by leaves room for an equally serious student who does not.

Martial arts do not guarantee that one will become a better human being. In fact, I don't even think that should be the aim. I think the aim should be to be most truly yourself.
First you have to find that out before trying to fit into a mold, deciding whether you want to fit into it. Some of these molds have very many rules and can be too controlling in my view. The simple rules you mention, I believe in another post, are okay, but I don't like the repeated recitation conditioning. Frankly, I don't think it works except to show a person that even if they don't feel a certain way, they sure know how to act the part. Even if the person is sincere, I am not in favor of this sort of programming.

Certain martial arts, ones that have a common foundation -- for instance, those that concentrate on the harnessing of chi and mind/spirit in an esoteric way -- are headed to the same place, formlessness. Fighting systems that do not attend to this in the same way or at all, are still martial arts, but lead elsewhere, though a person might find formlessness in actual practice at a high level. All these people will not necessarily know the same things in the same way. I can see how you might think that all arts become one on some level. I have thought that way myself, especially in response to the competition amongst them for superiority. I've got a "Yes, but...." response to that I can't explain. Part of that is wondering if there is more than one "place" to go to, even in formlessness.

I think our goal should be to learn the essence of what a martial art is from the points of view that are correct for the person studying. This is very difficult to do. Where some students find themselves chasing their tails because there is no intent to give the systematic instruction that leads there to the degree that there was in the past.

I think one should follow heart and body in terms of study. What is possible or necessary for one person is not for another.

Cody

[old jong]

I understand what you mean Mr Nunchaku but when I think about it (And I was thinking about this decades ago) Any art can make a person better,you could learn painting,cooking...whatever and gain from it! But think about the multitudes of jerks and morons we find in all human activities! Martial arts possess a very good share of these guys and most of the times ,they occupy high profile positions in well known organisations.Some can fight for sure but...You know what I mean?...It's a shame some of them (a lot actually) are playing Guru or enlighted or whatever and are dominating and manipulating others with false claims of making their students Jedilike superhuman beings.
I believe that life only can make someone better.It only depends on how you use it!;)
BTW, I like what you bring to the forum Mr Nunchaku!...Don't stop :) ;)

[Robinf]

I don't know, anymore, what the martial arts are for. It's a part of me, now, as much as my arms and legs are a part of me. I used to have definitions up the hilt about martial arts. Now, I find I can't define it as I can't define my arm in that way. What is my arm for? Well, it has all these endless purposes, but mainly, it's just attached to my body so it's there to be used or not.

Did that make sense?

Robin

[old jong]

It did to me Robin!;)

[MightyB]

I'm not sure if I'm an anomaly or not, but I can't tell you why I like the martial arts. I just do. I've been able to meet people and go places and do things that I wouldn't think that I'd be able to do because of the martial arts, but it's not really a spiritual thing at all for me. I don't give too much thought to the esoteric aspects of the martial arts, and I often believe that they do more harm than good for the martial artist and art. I don't think that it's right to let people live in fantasy, nor do I believe that it's possible to train a person to perform miracles. Martial arts are martial arts. Sometimes it's for the thrill, the emotion, and exhiliration of being pushed to the limit and then surpassing it. Sometimes it's the pure joy of being free in motion. And, yes, sometimes it's even for the pain of failure, the physical shock of being hit, the reality of existense.

You can't teach immortality or how to focus beams of industrictibility because, like it or not, we're only human. You can't even teach a person to be good, all you can do is be the best that you can be and be an example for others to follow.

My 2 cents.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Thank you everyone for such great responses. I guess the martial arts and morality are two different aspects of life, but for me they go together. I agree that everyone has different goals though. Again thanks for the replies.

[Mutant]

Self preservation, self cultivation, and self realization...
And then the ability for these attributes to enrichen and protect others.
People learn arts for many different reasons; as long as it makes the quality of their own life, as well as other's better, I'm all for it whatever the reason or style.

[DelicateSound]

I think there is more to MA's than just the physical side.

By overcoming trials you learn to better yourself. A diamond can't be polished without friction, nor man perfected without trials.

I find relaxation ,health, peace and a better sense of life thru my Kung-Fu and hope that others can feel the same way too. Maybe its just me, but I hope not.

[joedoe]

I think morality/ethics should be taught alongside martial arts. Whether it is a side-effect of MA training is debatable.

[No_Know]

"Aikido is not Bando, Pa Kua is not TKD, Shorin-Ryu Karate is not Shuai Chaio, Tai Chi Ch'uan is not Western Military Combatives and so on and so on. "

Both Aikido and Bando look to resolve the situation decisively.

Pa Kua and TKD study and have a basis in directness.

Shuia Chiao isn't mixed with any other Martial art to make it better.

T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Western Military Combatives quickly dispatches the objective(opponent).

And so on.

[Black Jack]

All arts may have come from the background of self preservation but just because that is a common goal does not make the path or the approach in that goal the same.

Aikido has a much different outlook than the tribal arts of Burmese Bando.

They have much different psychological takes on combatives and much different physical attribute training, they both gear themselves towards different tactics in getting the job done, according to what they percieve as getting the job done, which in the end equates them to not being the same art.

Pa Kua and TKD are like night in day in training parameters and in functional operations, they are geared towards different ranges, methods and historical backgrounds, again making them much different arts.

Tai Chi Ch'aun and Western Military Combatives may both have the goal of taking out the attacker as soon as possible but so does every other art so that point is kinda mute, the real point is that their training guidlines, delivery systems and mental outlooks are again different, thus again making them different arts.

As for the Shuai Chaio comment, what makes you think that Shuai Chaio is a static system that has not evolved and adapted other techniques, principles, and training tools into its forumla over its many years of growth to make it a better system?????????????

The reason that it may be around so long and considered by the CMA crowd to be so good is because of its ability to grow.

Whatever the case of your point, I stand fast that all arts are not the same arts, each has its own encyclopedia of history which in turm shapes the base format for its students and their evolution towards combat both in mental and physical principles.

That is like saying that at the end a TKD master will be able to do the same things a BJJ master would.

[Shooter]

>"Tai Chi Ch'aun and Western Military Combatives may both have the goal of taking out the attacker as soon as possible but so does every other art so that point is kinda mute, the real point is that their training guidlines, delivery systems and mental outlooks are again different, thus again making them different arts"<

Could you please outline and describe what you believe to be the differences between TCC's and WMC's "training guidlelines, delivery systems and mental outlooks"?

Just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Black Jack]

Why do I need somebody to give me the benefit of the doubt?

My point is not to discuss the particular merits of one art over another or to make blanket statements on what one system does or does not do.

People will always have different personal preferences and judgements on what they believe the martial arts should stand for or be, what arts are better, what methods are more realistic, what training is better geared for combat, and so and so on.

I refuse to accept the theory that all martial arts are the same, to me it is a ridiculous judgement, but that is just my take on the matter.

Since you want to get specific and to use Taijiquan as an example onto its self lets take a quick look.

What Tai Chi system are we speaking about here since I am not a CMA scholar? Chen, Wu, Sun, Yang, Chao, are all they the extact same system, according to the above philiosphy they must all be, no differences, the same flavor.

What Western Military Combatives system are we in reference to? WWI, WWII, Modern, O'Neill, Biddle, Styer, Brown, Fairbairn, Applegate, Nelson, American Combato, Jim Grover, Beckwith, Combat Sambo Spetsnaz, John Kary, Systema, Mangel, Krav Maga, RAT JKD, LINE, SAFTA........

The biggest difference between Tai Chi and Military based combative approachs is in the belief of "Chi" for one.

Other general training CMA principles like Ying & Yang and its never ending cycle of energy between the two is also absent, power generation methods are gathered in different ways, the classical training methods are way different, Tai Chi has forms, postures, spiritual and mental meditations, Tui Sau, San Shou (good schools) and specific Tai Chi footwork elements, you do not see the Tai Chi 13 basics like Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Li, Zhou, Gou and others being ingrained into a student of military combatives and I am sure that each family trains those above elements in a different fashion from each other to some degree as well.

Western Military Combatives based on what we are talking about have a much more basic approach to their training, which is to transfer a mixed bag of totally serious skills to different soliders of different physical makeups in a compact and realistic period of time, soliders who not only have different physical makeups and natural attributes, fat, thin, tall, short, but also different mindsets on what they need to accomplish in a h2h encounter.

WWII combatives have no forms, no postures, no meditations, no push hands, no specific offensive/defensive footwork sets, no rituals, no chi blasts, nothing extraneous, no "if he does that, you do this" training, no programs for spiritual development, they do not take a strict duelists sceniro approach to fighting, they incorporate a lot of situational sparring and resistance training, the fighter is given a small core of techs and principles to respond with and those techs and principles are based on pure aggressiveness combined with a focus on "Hicks Law" which shows that decision time is proportional to the number of alternatives.


Here is the main point though, both of those systems "can" be exceedingly effective, both "can" make task oriented and formable fighters, it is all up to what works for you and what you want to do, what your needs are, and what you find as extraneous, and what as worthy of study.

Do fighting systems share some of the same ideas and tactics, of course, the good ones do, but does that make them the same art, no.

[Starchaser107]

many respects, you seem to have an understanding of what the different arts entail , and based on your posts you seem as well to be a no nonsense person in your approach to your martial discipline. This is good, but I dont think you are looking at what the statement really means. All martial arts might not be the same in terms of philosophy and application, movement etc. but these things are all on the surface level. I believe that the original statement made here said something about all arts when at the highest level or something to that effect. I can see why an arguement like this could sound like alot of bs but if you can just for a moment look beyond the face value and superfiscial definitions and terms ascribed to the various arts.
All martial arts will eventually take you to the same place, ultimately the goal is self preservation by means of eliminating an immediate or impending threat. They are all gates to the same place no matter how much they are decorated. Regardless of what you have in your hands or not or how you use your empty hands. How this proves itself is that in reality there is no ultimate martial art. No martial art is better than the next, because it Always depends on the practicioner and how well they implement thier knowledge.
Surely a skilled gunfighter would seemingly have the advantage against an open handed stylist, but there are numerous odds that say what if so and so..like what if the gun jams or what if the gunfighter has no time to draw the gun, what if he missess , and so on.
Because there is no ULTIMATE martial art. Does it mean then that all arts are at some point Equal...? That is up to you here to decide. If there is no lesser or inferior art to another , because there is none Superior to another then why are we scared to say what is inbetween. Why does this frighten us?

[Black Jack]

I agree with a lot of what you are stating.

I do not believe their are better arts, but better arts for different people, some people have different attributes, responses, and processes to what they can accomplish, some arts fit other people better.

The old do not put a square block into a round hole viewpoint.

Though their is a middle ground in my "their are no better arts, but better arts for different people" statement, their is just some stuff that is bizzare and freakin akin to commiting hari-kari in regards to self-preservation.

I agree 100% that all arts have the goal of self-protection in mind but to steal from a common JKD saying is that there are a lot of schools that train their students in self-prefection and not self preservation.

Be this the fault of the style, no, be this the fault of the teacher, yes.

Either way I see it, even with the common goal of self-defense/protection/preservation, the way a system handles that situation is often very different from one another, each has advantages and specific attributes that go hand in hand with how that style trains someone to fight.

When you add onto that mix the fact that each person has their own specifc advantages and specifc attributes that go hand in hand with how they like to fight then you have gone beyond the basic generic style formula and into the personal evolution stage.

Add in crosstraining and then you no longer have this one system theory, anymore, anyway.

A theory which is kinda dissed by even the aspect of crosstraining.

[Ryu]

Mr. Nunchaku, sorry for the delay.
I have some time right now so I'll post. (Then I will train :D )

Well first, regardless of whether or not Martial Art SHOULD encompass morality and ethics, it is quite obvious that there are some "martial artists" of questionable ethics and morals.
So regardless of whether or not MA teaches it, some people do not become "good people" because of its study.

That being said, I do feel that ethical logic and study should in fact be a part of the martial arts. And that is not necessarily to say that one must "follow" a set dogma of rules because someone says so, but to the contrary, I think one should delve into the realm of ethical theory and moral philosophy because it gives the student a very well gripping mind on some of life's most difficult issues. The physical aspects of martial arts are used to fight. This is the only thing the physical techniques know. How to cripple, break, tear, cut, hit, etc.
Now, even though this is the case, the mentality behind why those tools are used can exist on many different planes for people. There is a Buddhist example of a "knife". The knife itself is not moral nor immoral. Depending on the motivation, the knife can actually take on a persona. In the hands of a killer, the knife has a very dark and sinister persona, in the hands of a surgeon, the knife takes on a very protective and life-saving quality.
Mentality and motivation behind things play a LARGE part on why things are truly "wrong or right".

There is nothing wrong with seeing the martial arts as simply fighting techniques, or the ability to compete, have fun, etc.
On the physical level, that is EXACTLY what they are. :) When you research your own motivation and mentality, things can become a little more deep. That's all. Those skills can become tools to kill your own ego, your own demons. The spiritual aspects connected to MA can be used to better your own confidence, life condition, etc. But then again, most religion does this anyway if practiced proactively.

As everyone on this board knows, I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, and justice. My martial art training has expressed that my entire life. I went through all the "levels" so to speak (well except the "mastery" one LOL) But I began in the martial arts as a way of fighting what was wrong. It was a spiritual thing to me. I started when I was young in things like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc. When I reached my teenage years, I got into fights and wanted my martial art just geared towards effective fighting. I studied JKD, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and judo. I stayed with these all my teenage years, up into my 20's, until just now (I still practice judo, BJJ, etc) But for me something was still lacking. I was very much into the tough guy image of MA, I wanted to look like, and train with Cage Fighters, etc. And I did.
But I still wasn't happy with myself. I was still obsessed with being tough, kicking ass, etc. When I had the realization that there's always going to be someone who can beat me up, I quit worrying about it as much. I still had my strong feelings of "good and bad, innocent and criminal" what was "fair and unfair".
The things that angered me the most (and still do) are when innocent people are made to feel afraid, helpless, etc. The reality of a "good" man who studies martial arts being destroyed by a "bad" man who is bigger, stronger, etc never sat well with me. And it doesn't matter the martial art you study, because there may always be someone who studies it too who is still better than you and "thuggish, criminal, etc."
I started looking for different ways of "winning" so to speak. That brought me into different catagories like weapons, OC spray, guns, etc. But even that doesn't make you "tough" :)
So I once again have come back to my starting point. I want a martial art that I can express my emotions in as well as giving me realistic fighting skills. My judo and BJJ has given me that already, and I know now what it takes to fight. Therefore I will not fall into ignorance about what will and won't work for real life.

Right now I am going to give Ninjutsu/ninpo a try. The people in Hatsumi's organization seem to stress a moral/spiritual aspect to their art that I am really attracted to right now.
Again it goes back to that mentality behind the art or tool. "Fighting dirty" can be very "fair" in the big scheme of things if you understand the "why" of what you're doing.

Take care,
Ryu

[Mr Nunchaku]

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who posted. Great reading indeed.

[No_Know]

"As for the Shuai Chaio comment, what makes you think that Shuai Chaio is a static system that has not evolved and adapted other techniques, principles, and training tools into its forumla over its many years of growth to make it a better system????????????? "


What you mention didn't happen except in Your mind.

Shuai Chiao is. What matters is how all that went into it came together to be Shuai Chiao--what you see now. Try to keep straight when you are talking about. It, as it is, could change, yet not be different. Not anything that is not Shuai Chiao will be added to it.

Shuai Chiao was not the original name because at what it started as it wasn't what you see today, but when the original was not the original, it got a different name. Shuai Chiao won't be added to. It Can grow from its self. But add to it, and you have a New/different martial art with old roots.~

[Black Jack]

Could you sound more f-u-c-k-i-n-g retarded.

Do you guys go to some sort of Master Po martial art college to sound like that.

Class 101: "How not to address anything with a straight answer".

Were you and Tuyrien roommates?