Training

[Mr Nunchaku]

I have friends who think that forms are just a waste of time. I also have friends who think breaking (boards, etc) is pointless. Then there are my friends who think that weapons like the katana are completely useless to learn. I do not share these opinions of my friends.

I'd like to hear why all of you do practice forms (because no fight will ever go like that), and why you practice weapons (because you will never have it with you outside the training hall) and breaking (because people are not boards, so why hit them?).

Sparring, this is of couse very important. But for barehanded sparring, how hard should the contact be? What do you think about padding. Will someone who spars (minus all the rules for getting points) be able to fight on the street.

Conditioning. How far is too far when we condition our bodies to be weapons? Should we not worry about it or should we go to the lengths of having deformed hands with large callouses?

NOTE: THE COMMENTS ABOVE ARE NOT THOSE OF MR NUNCHAKU!

[taijiquan_student]

What is your view on breaking boards? Just curious.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Breaking boards. I know for a fact that strength is not all it takes to break boards or blocks. It takes a certain level of mastery of the technique. Successfully breaking boards shows that level of mastery.

For any who believe that all it takes is strength to break a board, I have many personal stories that show otherwise.

[Budokan]

Making sure the board has been baked in the oven long enough and is brittle is also an important point.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I've never heard of baking the boards. I don't believe we do that here at the Taekwondo University. Would that make the bone too brittle? I don't really know about that, though.

[taijiquan_student]

Thanks for the reply. Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of: Do you think it is important, if so what does it accomplish? Does it provide people with a false sense of security?, etc.

[Apprentice]

"I'd like to hear why all of you do practice forms (because no fight will ever go like that)"

No fight will ever go like what? Nobody will ever throw a punch that you can block with your forearm, or deflect and counter? Nobody will ever whale out on you with continuous punches, is it pointless to learn to "Close the Gap"??? It is important, once you can do the forms correctly, and fast with strenght, you will learn why you do forms...tell me, when you are young, and you can't punch, it would seem useless for them to get into a fight aswell, practice makes perfect...its pointless to put someone who's never ran with a football as the starting running back as opposed to someone who has 5 years experience...

"and why you practice weapons (because you will never have it with you outside the training hall)"


If you know how to use a staff, you can walk with it like a walking stick n mess people up that mess with ya...or carry a sword, nobody will mess wit ya then... :D

"and breaking (because people are not boards, so why hit them?)."


Breaking boards helps to break noses

"Sparring, this is of couse very important. But for barehanded sparring, how hard should the contact be? What do you think about padding. Will someone who spars (minus all the rules for getting points) be able to fight on the street. "

someone who spars will know themselves better, and knowing yourself is important in a street fight

[Satanachia]

Forms:

We use these sometimes to basically warm up/warm down a bit.
Plus they increase your strength, flexability, agility, etc.

Weapons:

Well we don't train much in "chinese ma" weapons as such. We focus more on the street weapons your likely to find like knives and such. Plus we do also have a bit of staffs and similar stuff, mainly because these are the kind of things that would be available out in the real world, ie. Chair legs, pool cues, sticks, etc. But then if you train with weapons and you enjoy it, good for you, that's all that matters. :)

Although our teacher was telling how when he was once working as a bouncer, there was this one guy who came in one night who had something hidden under his trenchcoat. When he approached him, he screamed and pulled out a several foot long japanese katana. He never got to use it though, another bouncer hit him over the back of the head with a bar stool.

Breaking boards:

We don't do it. And i don't really see the need myself, as hitting everything else works out fine. Although my other friend who does TKD did (which i have to admit impressed me, cause she's a very small very light girl), although i got to inspect the board, and i know that i could break them after all. I don't know about this "baking" boards either. I know that when they had to break them, they had to go down to the hardware store and actually buy some timber off of the shelf.

Sparring:

Works great. Period.

[Mr Nunchaku]

taijiquan_student, I have already answered those questions in my response, except about having a false sense of security. For that all I can say is that is a fault of the student for thinking he can win a fight just because he can break a board. Hopefully the instructor will stress the point that that is no the case.

Apprentice, that is not what I meant about forms at all. What I meant is what others criticize about forms. One of those criticisms is that we learn and memorize a huge long form when no fight will ever call for a form. Of course you and me know that we learn important concepts through these forms.

Apprentice, you have to understand that I am giving the views of others who criticize these things, I'm not giving my own views. Perhaps I was unclear about that, but in the opening paragraph I was talking about people who question what we do.

[Robinf]

Forms help to learn the techniques, transitions into and from techniques and stances. Also good for cardio work and toning (depending on the form).

Weapons help you learn to think outside of your own body--to use something other than your fist. There are times when an attacker is coming at you, using a staff you learn to keep attackers at a distance (so feel free to pick up a big stick).

Breaking helps you learn and practice focus, technique, speed, power, timing (for throwing a board in the air and breaking it on the way down with a spinning kick--done by a 17-year-old at our school). Breaking is not equivalent to breaking bones. But, a lot of folks don't go through with the full technique--they tend to hold back. In order to break boards or bricks you can't hold back. Breaking is just another tool.

Robin

[Mantis9]

I remember in wrestling doing techiques and drills, like the bridge, single leg and double leg takedowns, with and without a partner repeatedly. That seems to me to be a form, though a short one.

In boxing, I practiced the one-two, among other combos with and with out a parnter. That seems like a form to me, too.

Rehearsing techiques differs from style to style, but its all the same concept when it comes out of the wash. Watch wrestling, boxing, or UFC and you will notice the one-two, single leg takedown, and the choke from the guard don't always run into a few snags.

Practicing as close to perfect technique is incredibly important. Every MA practices that way. It just takes on different "forms."

Just my two cents.:)

FORMS

Forms does many things for us, not only physically but mentally. Forms give us the coordination to move quikly, not only with our hands but to fade in and out on the opponent. They also give us a form of moving meditation, stretching and if done fast they can also be used for cardio. To me forms are pretty much on top when it comes to priority.



Breaking Boards

Breaking boards seems like it would teach you how to blend force and momentum in order to generate power. I think that used as a learning tool(like the Iron Palm Bag or something) it is ok, but when those guys on espn get up there and think its cool to break all those boards is gay as Fu**.

Weapons
Weapons forms give me the coordination and ability to use something as an extension of my own body. It hasall the benefits that that empty handed forms have, but now you have more weight in your hands and your hands are moving in different patterns. From this your stances get more solid and balance begins to set in. I think training a weapon is very important for the fact that once you become coordinated with one, you can pretty much pick up anything and use it to your advantage.

Just my $0.02

Shaolin36

[DelicateSound]

A fellow student once said to me:

"Why do this sh*tty riding stance, they'll just kick you in the balls"

It took me best part of 1/2 an hour to explain its point to him.

Forms help with relaxation, muscular recognition etc.


Go figure.

[EARTH DRAGON]

It seems as though a lot of people looking at the small picture when learning martial arts. The best example was told in the karate kid movie when daniel asked his teacher why should I paint the fence I want to learn how to fight.

Mr nanchaku it seems as though you have the same misunderstanding. I dont mean to sound harsh and I am not in
any way trying to offend you but in your posts you talk about tae kwoon do and how deep it is and what it has taught you , but you ask extremly basic questions about why and how people train? I think that your interpetation of the reasoning behind methods of practice are a little misguiding allow me to explain...

Forms are to be practiced to learn to move with fluidity, grace and power. When practicing you learn agaility , balance and coordination. this is why you practice to learn yourself................. NOT THE FORM. you see forms are like tools if some one gave you a tool and said use this, you must first understand what your "use" for that tool is! forms are not about how you fight from a certain position becuse obviously no one will fight like that , however you will know by moving your kinetic energy in seqence how you will respond!

As for weapons the same rules apply , you are not practicing wepons to know how to use them when attacked. you will never be attacked wehn carrying one. You will understand however weight distribution, the laws of motion and cintriffical force. again learning how YOU will react with the extention of your hand is why you train to use a weapon. in the olden days the focus was purley for protection, but since the invention of gun powder that use has changed to selfunderstanding.

Board breaking is a way of proving self egotistics. No one that breaks boards is doing anything but attempting to impress other people and themselfs, thus false sense of security as explained before. Ask the same guys to break a brick without lifting the hand off the brick, this is impressive, you see anyone with a hard fist can break wood with a palm heel or a punch, but that is simply strength ONLY!!!!! when you want to perform a real break it is the chi that you push through the object that makes the break not the contact with the object thus break without leving contact and then you learn the art of a true break.......
check out my iron palm teacher shatter a concrete patio block while hanging it from a rope in midair......... much more impressive than 1 inch pine boards with spacers that break with a about 14 lbs of force, that non martial artsist can do the same as a 13 year old boy.......

[Aramus]

Forms, weapons, breaking boards, etc.
First off, I do martial arts because I enjoy it.

Forms: I have learned a lot from the forms I have practiced. Just little things you do can have many applications (Hidden movements/interpretations in kata/forms, etc.). I actually used what I learned in some forms in sparring...that was pretty neat. I laugh at myself when I think how long it took me to really learn Short form 1 and long form one in Kenpo Karate (what a moron I was). Forms are good for conditioning, meditation, practice, mental exercise as mentioned before. Also, you don't always have a sparring or training partner, but you can always do forms...you just need a little space.

Weapons: Weapons are very cool and add spice to training. They build strength, endurance, timing, and help you measure your capabilities (if you're not careful going at full speed you could put holes in the walls, ceilings, etc.). I had a friend, JD Clark III, He studied sword fighting but was amazing without one. His strength, speed, accuracy, and body postitioning was simply amazing. He beat many other black belts and various artists who were teachers/instrutors without having to significantly hurt them and without a weapon (sometimes with one).

Breaking boards: Yes, you can bake boads to decrease the moisture in them to make them easier to break. You don't want those soggy, damp boards for your demonstrations...and you can buy the wood with the grain going the way you want it too. You want the board to be stiff (snicker, giggle) so it is easier to break. This is why you want the holder or surface to be solid to aid you in breaking the board. A neat trick is to throw a board into the air and break it with a punch, open hand strike, etc. This way you know you are focusing as no one is holding the board for you. I think breaking is a good confidence builder and shows what Robinf said, you can't hold back or you may hurt yourself. Other than that...well it looks cool. I don't do it that much. Same thing goes for breaking cinderblock and stuff, looks neat but?

Sparring: Well, if you have good control you can punch out (as Ryu has said before I believe) and hit your target with no force even though you were throwing your punch (or kick, elbow, open hand, back hand, etc.) at full speed. If you can do that, you don't need pads for you. You can learn to train this, and hopefully your partner(s) learn this too. This is another neat trick to scare opponents or would be attackers, but you have to be prepared to defend yourself should it not work. The thing I always hated was 1/2 the stuff I learned I can't use in sparring (I can't elbow to the head, break knees, strike at the neck, hit the groin, etc.) without modifiying the attacks/defenses/counter attacks. I believe sparring is great, but you should also practice in the air or against objects techniques you can't do while sparring so you don't lose your edge.

Just some thoughts

Enjoy life, have fun...make every day your best (you don't get a do over).

[SevenStar]

coincidentally, today during luch, I was at the gym and ran into a friend of mine that I lift with sometomes. The company gym recently began teaching a TKD class, and he was wondering if I had anything to do with getting classes started there, as I'd suggested MA classes before. As we talked about MA, he told me how he thought karate was a waste of time (and TKD) because all they do is forms. I bet he would've said the same about kung fu, but since I train in CMA, he didn't want to offend me. He did some boxing while he was in high school and also a little kickboxing. He perked up when I told him that I had trained in MT before also and have done some grappling. He said that he believes the only true way to learn properly is through sparring, and that form really has no place, because you are not working it aginst someone, only performing techs in the air. He did agree that they can have some benefit however, if your teacher constantly drilled you in various form applications to ensure that you can apply them in a fight.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Man, I really screwed up the first post of this topic.

Earth Dragon, just like Apprentice, you misunderstood my post. It is not ME asking these questions but many people who do not understand. The point of this topic is for you to give your view and answers to these questions. I have my own answers to these questions which I have not yet posted, so you don't know about that. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

In my TKD class we DO talk about these things and go deep into them and it HAS taught me a lot. I am not the one asking these basic questions but many others who do not understand (it is all of you whose answers I would like to hear). You don't know my interpretations of this because I have not said it. Again, I am really sorry for my post being so ambiguous. I added a little note to the end of the post.

[Mr Nunchaku]

What about conditioning? I would like to hear more about people's opinion on that. How far is too far? Should we condition our hands to be a super strong calloused mess?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am sorry for my misreading of your post. to add on the same train of thought as my earlier post, conditioning is Ok to a point as long as it is done properly. I have seen disfigurment in guys hands who punch rope tied around trees to toughen thier hands. I asked why do this the say to toughen the hands for punching, so I said why spend all that time on conditioning if your eventual goal in the martial arts is not to fight? for beating up people is easy. but in all reality you should spend time on training to make yourself better becuse lets face it training for a long time you surpass the attitude of fighting in the early stages of your life. All the time you spend on sharpening your knife by the time its razor sharp you wont have a desire to cut. So you should spend your time more constuctively and train for the future.

if you are stuck on conditioning just make sure its done properly,use dit dat jow and massage the hand and breath properly when striking. When you train right the density should be in the bone not the skin. Like iron palm for example, a true iron palm practioner shows no calouses or toughening for it is internal and in the long run it is the chi thats breaks not the toughen hand so again improper traing is a waste of time.