Blocking kicks...

[Satanachia]

What does your style say you should do if someone tries to kick you?

Now obviously most people who aren't trained are not going to make you worry about a roundhouse to the head. But the reason i ask is what if your up against someone who can kick?
We've pretty much been taught that the only real "block" to use against a kick is with the shin, and otherwise you should try to evade, zone out, or intercept the kick. And quite frankly, even in my short time in martial arts, i can see why.

Our style isn't exactly known for its kicks as such, but i suppose they're pretty much like muay thai kicks, in that they follow through with alot of power and generally aren't "snappy" if you know what i mean. I've got no idea just how powerful some of those snappy kicks are, but i do know how powerful ours are when they land, and quite frankly, blocking them with the arms would be suicide. They'd just pass right on through and break the bone. Which is pretty much why we don't block kicks with our arms. Apparently, there's been afew people who tried to block with arms/hands etc, and they've ended up with broken bones in the case of trying to block with the arms, or if they get hit on the hand, it basically wrenches the wrist or fingers out of their joints.

So i guess my questions are:

1. Do you train to "block" kicks, or evade, intercept, and if so, how?
2. Have you successfully used it against kicks and if so, what kind of kicks, and what level of practioner was it against, and what was the result?

As i've said, i've only got our own kicks to go against, but the good guys leave some marks on you when your holding a kickshield, so i personally wouldn't even dream of trying to outright meet force with force.

[Mr Nunchaku]

The round kick in my opinion is a very hard kick to block (take it from me in TKD). The low round kick, the mid round kick, and the high are all hard to block. You have basically said the most important things, block with shin or evade and so forth.

There are other kicks that can be blocked with the arms depending. The side kick for instance. Let's think physics. The round kick comes around and your arm block would meet it going in the opposite direction, therefore you could break or injure your arm. However, the side kick comes straight out at you. You can deflect a side kick by hitting the leg on the side. It doesn't take as much force as you might think. Some very good side kicks have been thrown at me and I just have to keep the mentality of sending it in a different direction with a parry with my arm.

[EARTH DRAGON]

The trick is not to block , but redirect! if you try to block anything it most likely will not work. This is the problem with so many arts. force on force hardley works, if it does work and you stop force with force usually it hurts a little hindering your next move. tell someone to throw a kick and try to block it with your shin, arm , head whatever. It hurts and still the kick has some effect right?
now as some one kicks follow the motion and move with the kick redirect, understand?
In tai chi when some one kicks you simply slide under the kick, while it moves along its path of motion and lift up or away. This causes them to lose thier balance and fall. You can stop a 1000 pounds with 4 ounces when you do it correctly. If you block trying to use force you are only at the basic level of understanding martial arts. Motion is hard to stop......... but easy to deflect!

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Redirecting is good. Jamming the kick is also good. Thia=s is acomplished by stopping (jamming) the kick before it reaches full power. Crowding your opponent also makes kicking difficult. Attacking the piviot leg is also an ecellent way to agressively defend aganst a kicker.

[PaleDragon]

can you block kicks with elbows consitently?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm with johnny.

you can block a kick with your hands if you jam it before it reaches full power. you want to get as close to the fold of the leg as possible and no further away than above the knee.

taking out their supporting leg is also very effective even if you end up taking the kick. rather have broken ribs than a broken knee/ankle.

[Kristoffer]

If u have ever watched a muay thai fight, then u will see wath works and doesnt. It is better to train to put up your arms blocking with underarms, coz in a real fight (in ring or whatever) u wont have the time to slip under and push.. besides, if u are up against someone good, this trick is actually pretty hard to do.

[shaolinboxer]

The trick with elbow blocks is that you risk damagint the highly sensitive nerve that runs up the back of your arm. A good bone shot there can disable your arm entirely.

Generally if i need to block a kick I do one of three things...1) abosorb it into my outer forearms and slide away from it, tucking back my center of gravity 2) twist it away, so that as it contacts my guard it rolls off 3) if I see it coming, move in and attack the person's balance by hooking the leg near the knee

[Water Dragon]

Jam the hit joint, right where the thigh bone connects into the hip. It steals all the power from the kick. Sevenstar and I were throwing full power Thai kicks at each other with this and they felt like nothing. Before that, I took a kick from him just under half power and about puked.

[Crimson Phoenix]

WD, that's what we do in savate as well: kick the kick (on the knee if you see it coming, on the hip if you're a little bit late)...however this has a great disadvantage: you cannot use this technique if you do not clearly feel the kick leaving or better anticipate it. This technique cannot be used for reaction (unless you got killer nerve schemes and lighting fast limbs!!!), as if you happen to be forced to react, chances are the kick will be too close already and you'll have to reflex parry it the way you can on the spot...
Aside from that, it's both very effective (requires not much energy to neutralize even a very fierce kick) and very frustrating for the opponent if you can do it consistently, to the point that he might even think twice before kicking...and you know what happens to you when you think twice in combat :D

[MightyB]

A lot of it has to do with footwork when you block a kick. I've never seen anybody just stand still when they block a kick with their forearm, well, because that's just stupid. Usually, you move out of the point of maximum impact. For example, on a round kick to the midsection, you move up and in kind've blending with the direction of the kick before you block it. On a side kick, you take a slight shuffle step back before you block it. Most of it has to do with redirection, movement, timing, and distance control more than just blocking.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Good comment, in savate we also often enter close range to the opposite side of the kick, or just switch guard if the front side is targeted, to steal away the target.
The only exception could be when dealing with a push front kick: you root yourself to redirect the kick to the side with the forearms (and then catch the guy with a fist combo if he got carried away by his momentum, or sweep his leg that he conveniently stomped on just next to you!!)

[Water Dragon]

We were just rushing the kick once it initiated, blending with the curve of the kick

[MightyB]

I've just started looking at Savate, and I'm shocked that it hasn't caught on more. That's some good stuff, very practical and competetive.

I like the strategies that you listed CD.

[Jaguar Wong]

I do like Muay Thai's "wall of defense" (both forearms, and one shin) to block incoming attacks, but they're conditioned to be able to use that. I use a similar method, but the first step is always step out of the "apex" of the kick. I know a lot of roundhouse kicks follow through, but no matter what you think, they don't have "full power" all the way through the arc. When I block with the raised leg, though, it's more of a cushioning. I tuck my elbow in tight to my ribs, and use my forearm/hand to cover my head and I absorb the kick as best I can with the outside of the shin and thigh (not the bone, cause I'm not conditioned to do so).

That's if the kick comes in too fast for anything else. But for me, that's what I usually end up doing all the time, because I'm slow. The biggest problem with that is the inability to effectively counter strike. The opponent was expecting his kick to hit something, and it did. But even though it didn't do as much damage, he's still ready to follow up, so it's difficult to counter.

I like the hip jam that has been mentioned a few times. But I use it a lot more than people think it can be used. I plant a side kick, or a front thrust kick right to the hip as soon as the opponent attempts to bridge the gap. It works well against punches and kicks. I don't know what the other guy is going for, but as soon as his hip sinks for a solid striking base, I blast it. I've stopped lunging jabs, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, cross punches, front kicks, and even spinning back kicks (my kick lands right under the "cheek" when they turn their back :)). The only problem is that it can't effectively stop punches inside punching range, only when the opponent is attempting to bridge into punching range. But, at least their kicks aren't as dangerous (except maybe cross kicks).

I also clinch a lot to stop a kicker. It doesn't do much good against a bigger guy, though, because I just get shaken right off, and tagged with an "exit hook" :) Also, the jam doesn't work as well against a good takedown/shot. It can work against the sloppy ones, but I don't trust it enough.

[Fu-Pow]

Mighty B-

Right on dude!!! Good advice.

I'll reiterate.

For round kicks, move to the side and in with the lead foot. .

For side kicks, move to the side and back with the back foot.

I have a couple other strategies....

When you turn your body to the side, lightly deflect with the arm but then hook the kick from under neath. You can either hook with the top of the hand or grab it from underneath. You'll be surprised how quickly people kick, but how slowly they retract their leg. I was sparring this dude one time and I literally flipped him on his back onto hard concrete (ouch!) I guess he'd watched too many Van Damme movies because he tried to open with a double front kick. I never saw him try that one again.

Secondly, if someone has real fast side or front kicks and you can't move your torso out of the way, you can still trap. This takes a strong stomach. Simply flex and take the kick. Then trap their leg by wrapping it up. Now you've got total control. All you have to do is move forward and your opponent will go down. I did this at a tournament and it worked beautifully. The dude got his kicks in but I also sent him to the ground about 10 times. He one the match by one vote. But had it been a real fight he would have been eating concrete.

Just remember foot flingers. Pull those kicks back fast or us kung fu guys are gonna be serving you the ground for lunch.

Peace

[Starchaser107]

Jamming before the kick is fully executed, or evasive techs like side stepping etc. blocking/deflecting with forearms or hands (very good conditioning) ,leg raises that sort of thing.

[Justa Man]

why not attack the leg that is kicking?

[davy]

"The round kick in my opinion is a very hard kick to block (take it from me in TKD)."

"The side kick for instance. Let's think physics."
"The round kick comes around and your arm block would meet it going in the opposite direction, therefore you could break or injure your arm."
" However, the side kick comes straight out at you. You can deflect a side kick by hitting the leg on the side."

So let's think Physics: in the case of a roudhouse, the force has a certain direction, so it is in the case of a side kick. But in the side kick case, you do not oppose your force with your opponent. So why don't you do the same with a roudhouse: for example, a high one couldn't be deflected by a upward going force, could it?

Because in fact, that's what you say you apply Physics to side kick deflection , so why don't you do the same with roudhouse?

[Starchaser107]

Ive heard this arguement from other tkd people.
BELIEVE ME it IS POSSBLE to BLOCK a ROUND KICK with your ARM or HAND. If you are taught to do this the wrong way you can hurt yourself, also if your hands have not been conditioned.
BUT its really frustrating to hear this stuff about IMPOSSIBLE to block a round kick with your hand garbage...

Ive blocked and hurt many people but the key is knowing where exactly to block and which part of your hands to use.

[Starchaser107]

theres alot of Chin Na that starts with blocking such a kick.

[GiantMidget]

Though not ideal, I sometimes block low roundhouse kicks with my shin; I find the top inch or two of the shin is fairly insensitive to pain. Also you only need to lift the leg up a little which helps you intercept really fast kicks. I try not to use this technique too much though as someone really good can take the other leg.

I find that constant movement is a good way of dealing with the kicker. I either:
1. Crowd the kicker and punch/elbow/knee/gouge etc
2. Move into the kicking arc (if its say a roundhouse)
3. Move away from the kicking arc.
If you stay where you are the kicker will zone in and youll be hit by his technique at its most powerful.

Seems to work for me anyway.

[Justa Man]

block block block

[Fu-Pow]

davy wrote:


for example, a high one couldn't be deflected by a upward going force, could it?

Yes, but would you want to deflect a kick into your face? Or what if you miss and you leave yourself wide open. Not a particularly good strategy. A round house kick is basically a horizontal and circular kick. Physics would dictate that you go in the same direction as the kick. So you move the body around and in.

Also,


Let me try to draw you a picture


>>> F 1):(
I
I 2):rolleyes:
I 3):D
:mad:

OK So the mad face is the attacker. The I's represent his leg. The F represents his foot. The arrows show the direction of attack. The other smilies are you. At points 1,2,3 you move around and in. Does that make sense.

[rogue]

If you're going to block a roundhouse the block should be executed against the thigh using two open hands. Using a regular block using the bone of the forearm against the shin is a great way to damage an arm.

[EARTH DRAGON]

As I read these posts I feel as though I am alone in the thought of not blocking? basic understanding of martial arts starts with blocking, and blocking big. What I mean is when you learn how to block the movement is big swepping circles, and when you advance those same blocks are taught to become smaller....
less motion equals greater distance using less time. when you advance past that level you start to understand that blocking is not what you are supposed to do that would be elemntary thinking what one should do is move with the kick and redirect the energy!!!!! My teacher once said whats the best way not to get hit? I replied block...... he said no dont be there when the punch is thrown, if you are, then move out of the way, if you cant then move toward the motion of the punch. in this case the kick, but you may understand that when you block you are still meeting force on force and this is not the best way to do anything for the stronger force will always win, which is the stronger force? the kick so jamming blocking and tripping may seem like good defense but the best defense is not having to use energy TO block... does no one agree with this level of understanding?

[Narmer]

You guys have given heaps of great tactics, but it seems a little rigid (maybe that's just me).

After training in CLF and Tong Bei Chuan for a while I joined a Taikwando class to practice defending against kicks. I've always been a little afraid of a kick to the head, but I've found some basic principles which seem to help me out most of the time.

Namely the whole idea of using soft against hard.


First is attacking the opponent's hip with a push kick or something similar when they begin to throw a kick at you. Get them right in the hip or the top of the leg. It doesn't need to be hard, just a nudge to destroy the momentum of the kick, and with any luck throw them off balance.

Another is getting myself right inside the kick. An opponents thigh doesn't do much damage, when you're nigh on grappling him/her.

By getting inside (with either a push kick or close fighting) you are meeting the opponents kick where it exhibits minumum force (for those of you with a physics focus think of the hip like a fulcrum, there is less force exhibited the closer you are to the fulcrum.)

Then for front kicks, there was an english sword manual written in the middle ages that suggested a swinging blow took strength to parry, but a thrust could be pushed aside by the slap of a child.
Apply the same philosophy to front kicks, fast footwork, and a quick slap to redirect. Never would I consider risking my arms or shins against someone who specialises in kicking.

This seemed to help me out against Taekwondo, and if someone came in for a low kick, it's **** hard to budge a deep horse stance.

Oh and my fear of head kicks....I duck a whole lot faster these days, and go for the hammies.:D

But hell, hard force against hard force, no way.

[SevenStar]

conditioning, conditioning. Blocking with the arm can be done. ease the pain by stepping in, as has been suggested. I also use the shins to block. below waist level gets blocked by my shin. waist level is either leg, arm or elbow, however I see fit, or have time to execute, above waist level is arms or body - having my arm against my body for reinforcement.

you can also strike the hip, as has been suggested.

I like Fu Pow's method of dealing with the side kick, but you may not have to flex and take it all. You could yield a little by bending at the waist, then trapping. I learned a dandy little tech in MT - when you block with the shin, twist into it, and strike/push your opponent with the opposite hand, which is now closest to him (was that too unclear?) the strike or shove will break your opponent's balance and therefore some of the pain, as well as giving you a chance to counter. I learned from WD that this can tie in with a tech that internal stylists use, called borrowing.

And as always, an elbow to the instep is a beautiful thing.

[SevenStar]

Earth Dragon,

I don't think any of us disagree with what you are saying, but when facing an accomlished kicker, especially really good MT and TKD proponents, simply moving out of the way may be difficult to pull off. If you can move, that's great. If not, then what? you have to block, or redirect, which brings me to this:

"You can stop a 1000 pounds with 4 ounces when you do it correctly. If you block trying to use force you are only at the basic level of understanding martial arts."

What if you don't do it correctly? you eat a kick and it's lights out. The basics can save your bacon in a situation. It's best (IMO) to be conditioned and know how to block effectively. then, as you progress, move to redirecting, but keep up the conditioning that you need to block. That way you can redirect, but if you don't have time, or for some reason screw your timing, you,ll be able to block the kick and continue.

[Water Dragon]

Sev, you had just as much to do with figuring out that little gem as I did.

[MightyB]

WD, That nugget is from Miyagi (Karate Kid II).

(In real life, the bad guy would've really kicked Machio's ass!)

[Water Dragon]

Aww $hit, Did I just use a cheesy cliche :confused:

[Jaguar Wong]

Earth Dragon,
I'm going to agree with Seven Star here. You're ideas are basically the goal that we are striving for, but I'm not there yet, and the guys that I practice with are at or around my level, so their strikes land just as often as mine do. It's fine and dandy to tell someone not to be there, but to pull that off against a skilled opponent takes a lot of practice. We all don't have 20+ years experience yet, and I prefer to rely on my basics until I can pull off the more advanced stuff. Plus if your higher level stuff doesn't work, fall back on the basics until you regain momentum.

Also, I don't see a jam as wasting energy. My whole strategy is to get the opponent off balance fast, so I can open him up for my offense. If I block a kick, I have no chance to counter, if I move out of the way, the opponent may or may not be ready to defend my counter (I'll admit that I have a much better head start than if I blocked it). But if I meet his strike with a strike (jamming the hip), he's off balance, and I'm already in the "business zone", and I can just continue with a combination, or perhaps a throw, or chin na.

I prefer not to be in the path of the kick, and let the guy wear himself out, or open himself up, but I also like to blast right inside their defense when they go for a circular strike. I've felt this from some Wing Chun, and Hsing I guys. I would go for a strike, and they would plow right through me before I could commit. Two birds with one stone.