A big Wing Chun Family?

[old jong]

How do you like discussing techniques or applications with members of other lineages?...
I feel that the big Wing Chun family is more utopia than reality most of the times.Or is it simply trouble in the family?;) How is it that it is so hard to accept different ways or interpretations by other lineages? I feel Wing Chun ,like many other arts, is deep enough to allow variations and different point of view.We could argue on the benefits of 50/50 or 100/0 or whatever percentage in between stances for eternity and never convince anybody that one way is better than the other.They both have a different feel and usage and both are effectives if you use it right...Now what about forms differencies,punching techniques,reactives or more aggressives motions,lines theories...Trapping (yeech!)...I mean,you dont like the way others do something.Think about it: If your steps would have brought you to that other lineage instead of your's, you would be liking it now! You would be making the best out of it like you are making the best out of what you are doing now!...Maybe you would even be dissing what you are actually consedering gospel right now! Maybe it is time to grow up a little bit.We all share common things.

[red5angel]

I agree with you old jong, there is no real reason to fight, I think alot o ftimes it is just ego that draws us into it. Look at all the big battles that go on, like the one recently with Emin Boztepe and his clan. Its all about ego.
I have learned from three different lineages, and finally settled into one that I like. The other two weren't bad, by any means, but this is the one that seems to fit me the best.
I look to the future, when I reach a sufficient level to start exploring my art, then I will probably start by looking at other lineages and what they have to offer.

[yuanfen]

There is a wing chun family?

Will someone show me the way?
Is it towards San Jose?

[old jong]

Yes Uncle(Si-Bak) Joy!:D But it is not a very united one!

[red5angel]

Hey YuanFen! I think there should be a family! Why cant we all just get along! >:)

Really though, the school I was at first, then yours YuanFen, and now the one I am at now, has taught me one important thing, that alot of the differences in each lineage are generally just opinion. Someone came along and decided that WC would work better if a little tweak was placed here or there and went with it. I dont view this as wrong either.
For example, in the first school I went to, there were a lot of toughening and strengthening excescises. In your school Yuan Fen, I noticed the stance was more relaxed and less forced. In my class now, and hopefully my last! Our stance is lower, and we dont do a whole lot of strength training but they have added some chikung stuff to warm up with. Otherwise, in the Sil Lim Tao, a few slight changes here and there, but so far nothing so major that I can see making a drastic change in the fundamentals.

[relax]

"if you don't practice my style, your style isn't Wing Chun"...
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will that can be true, if you are tweaking the wing chun you should stay within the principal, like

economy of motion, fastest way is a straight line, **** like that.


So if someone is tweaking their wing chun and starts to do wide circle movements instead of just the smaller movement,

He is not using the wing chun princpals , which means its WRONG/ not wing chun.

[Vu N.]

I doubt if this family will ever work because there is a lack of common agreement on what will work best. As for me, if you can show me that your technique is simple, efficient, and direct for the situation that you are in. You are doing WC. WC is a principle based art, if you argue too much about certain way of doing things it just show you still doing the art too mechanically. It really is a feeling art and that is why it is so awesome!

[old jong]

I think most lineage are working within the principles of Wing Chun.A few ones are maybe on the eccentric side a little and maybe more are too rigid,almost in an integrist way!...Does this means that they are no good?
Just look at boxing for example and see the various "styles" boxers adopt.It is always called boxing.
The principles are there and they allow some warping before breaking.How much?...Is the question.

[red5angel]

It would seem to me that as long as you are sticing to the tenents of WC you are probably still practicing WC.

[Vu N.]

Why do we have Biu Jee? To be free to do whatever you want to win or escape with little loss.

[hunt1]

Today many are fighting a fight that began in the 1950's.The jealousy and egos' that existed between Yip Mans first students and later students combined with Yip Man's teaching methods have gotten WC where it is today.To many think that only they were Yip Mans favorite and he only gave all his secrets to them.Then their students forget that their Sifu was once 18 and foolish and treat him as infallible.
The problems have been enlarged by many who began teaching WC outside of Hong Kong before they knew the whole system .They invented or enhanced certain forms or techniques then when more knowledgeable peaple arrived made excuses rather than admit errors.
Combine this with the egos, and jealousy on the mainland and yo
u end up with what we have today.
Oh yes cant forget that many are fighting over the money to be made being a WC master.Yip Chun's removal of Smuel Kwok from his association is a prime example of the ridiculous behavior that potential lost future revenue brings on.Leung Ting Boztepe is another recent example.

[Vu N.]

Hunt1,

Can you give specific make-up or add-on stuffs of later students to fill up the knowledge gap that you see or know? It would be instructive.

[mun hung]

Why don't you start a fellowship up in Canada? This way you can (hopefully) get a chance to discuss applications and techniques with members of different lineages. Or at least get a good game of Hockey going!:D

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by yuanfen
There is a wing chun family?

Will someone show me the way?
Is it towards San Jose?

LMAO....

Joy, are you my long lost brother?

[old jong]

I imagine it is impossible for some to even think about it without getting ironic!...It's your way.

[hunt1]

Vu N


Sorry but it wouldnt help anything and only cause worthless posts.Many of those who have "enhanced" "added to because the basic froms missed something" etc have allready been "outed" as it were a long time ago.

[yuanfen]

He aint heavy- he is my brother.

Mickey Rooney in Boy's town!!!

[black and blue]

We are a family after all! ! !

A few days back someone said: "Sorry!" to Whipping Hand; yesterday Whipping Hand embraced Old Jong as his brother... I'm just waiting for Ralek to confess he's actually a she, and she and Whipping Hand are to marry.

By the by, did I tell you I'm WH's mother. Time to organise a family reunion. Turkey and Wu Sau Christmas day.

:)

Now, if only we could invite the BJJ family members over, the world would be a happy place.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by black and blue
By the by, did I tell you I'm WH's mother.

Mama, where did I go wrong?

[old jong]

Well, looks like wing chun will always be fragmented into clans like many other arts. The question was :Is it possible to have some reasonable dialogue between different clans without the usual dissing and "It's not Wing Chun" appreciation? Can people doing the same art after all put aside this pueril tribal instinct and grow past politics that are always based on commercial reasons?
Looks like it is a difficult matter.But I like the fact that guys like Rene Ritchie and others are working to build some comprehension and dialogue in the Wing Chun community with things like the frienship seminar in particular.
I know some of you agree on this.

BTW, I think the "ignore list" function is a very nice feature.It allows me to be spared from useless and unwanted answers.

[[Censored]]

Can martial artists stop fighting?

Can birds stop flying?

[old jong]

I know what you mean but...Don't forget many birds don't fly!;) And we don't have bird brains;)...I think ,for the majority of us hopefully?:confused:

[cobra]

I think we all have a lot more in common than most want to believe. Let's try to concentrate on the common things and maybe we'll see some of the uncommon are not so uncommon. I hope that made sense, but with this group I'll know real quick if it didn't. That, I have no doubts about. Good Luck!!

[sanchezero]

Tonight, during training, I was brushing up on my lip sau with some of my older kungfu bruddas. They were reminiscing about chi sao with the other school in town (long since closed) and how lame those guys were.

After some cheerful bashing (they are WillCheung (TWC?), we are VT) I told the joke that was a thread-head here awhile ago -

'How you you start a fight between 2 wing chun guys?'

They didn't get it...:D

[[Censored]]

Let's try to concentrate on the common things and maybe we'll see some of the uncommon are not so uncommon.

In general nobody else's opinion is ever worth hearing:
either it agrees with one's own, in which case it is redundant;
or it disagrees, in which case it is incorrect. :)

[BeiKongHui]

Some one needs to start a mutual coorperation society that is totally independant of any lineage and open to everyone. YMWC, YKSWC, etc. If it was easier for information and sharing to cross lineages it would benefit the art as a whole and give more options to the individual martial artist.

Imagine all the people living for today...:)

[red5angel]

Maybe BeiKongHuis' idea on an organization devoted to all permutations of Wing chun is a good idea. It would be hard to put together but it could work to some extent. We could start by gathering a list of interested parties and peoples. I was just thinking today that it would be a good idea to get names, emails, locations, phone numbers, a database of WC people that we could all reference, sort o ffind people close to us or people who might be in the area who might like to get together for some sparring, talking or what have you. From there it could go a long way. I also thought of putting together a WC news letter, that involved all permutations. We could gather articles on each style, why they do the things they do, etc... in a central place. Do you guys think it could happen?

[rubthebuddha]

definitely could happen, and i'd gladly help you out with the database idea.

as far as an overall organization for the bigwigs, there already are a few, most of them with variations of the name of Yip Man Athletic Association or something like that. problem is, they don't seem to do all that much anymore together. seems to me that a lot of the bruhaha following the split after GM Yip Man's death has settled down and everyone pretty knows which instructors of GM Yip's are going which way. there was a big conference several months back, but all i've heard of it was that the VCD of the event offered up isn't all that grand. beyond that, i'm not sure. i'm hoping someone else pipes in on this soon. but honestly, i don't think a lot of the senior students of GM Yip spend all that much time together as a group (individual meetings are common, as some, such as Leung Ting and Hawkins Cheung, are good buddies)

[yuanfen]

A big wing chun family? No thanks.
I have always been a family planning man!

[old jong]

Funny Yuanfen, are you not a representative of the second most populated nation of the world?;)

[yuanfen]

Old jong_ that is why I only have two kids to the best of my knowledge. Also-- given the proliferation of mixed up wing chunners
they might surpass other countries in atleast population growth rates.... soon. A wing chun breeding kuen on every corner....so many claiming Yip Man as pater familias. Quo vadis Yip man familias? The plum blossom- in hoc signe vincit?

[old jong]

...I have two also...To the best of my knowledge also!;)

[tiger_1]

hi my friends , old jong great topic and fine theme, im mean good for wing chun people to be close and close and friendly and olpen in forum - friendly tiger_1:)

[old jong]

I know that you, living in a troubled country can fully understand how futile and useless tribal and small clans war really are!...Why is it so hard just to be friendly and understanding about some variations of other lineages? The sad fact is that many (A lot!) prefer to diss all the others and proclaim only them possess the holy truth!
Talk to you soon Emil.;)(you have a e-mail!)

[cha kuen]

Previous post
I feel Wing Chun ,like many other arts, is deep enough to allow variations and different point of view.We could argue on the benefits of 50/50 or 100/0 or whatever percentage in between stances for eternity and never convince anybody that one way is better than the other.They both have a different feel and usage and both are effectives if you use it right

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Sure I agree. This makes logical sense. BUT for this to work, the lineages or sifus we are talking about must be GOOD. And what defines good? That's a topic that no words can define.

Too many times, there are politics of disrespect, siheng, si dai, elders, si bak blah blah blah...that does not encourage everyone to be open.

In my opinion there are many things that seem logical to the innocent person that are absolutely wrong.

One may say, " I study wing chun from three different lineages because I want to broaden my views and increase my learning through different variations and teachers."

To the non martial artist, yeah sure this sounds great logically on paper, but it's wrong.

I don't think I made any sense there. Oh well.


Final thought, I would like to see tsui sueng tin, lok yiu, and a few others in a meeting touching hands all together to see what they think is good /bad. BUT you won't see a tsui seung tin person criticize lok yiu because LY is siheng. ( i think)

That's what I mean... every good teacher has his own theory but whatever theory it is it must be practical. ie You're not gonna do a bong sau and follow with a lap sau if someone gives you a straight punch out of nowhere. That's ludicrous. (throw them bows!)

[cha kuen]

The problem is that everyoen claims to get a closed door student of Yip Man and to have learned the secrets. There are no secrets. It's all hard work. "KUNG FU" means hard work.

The great wall of china took a lot of "kung fu" to build.

All those out there who claim to be top students and private students of yip man who have learned all the secrets are liars and you can quote me on that.

[yuanfen]

All those out there who claim to be top students and private students of yip man who have learned all the secrets are liars and you can quote me on that.(sez cha kuen))
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But if I tellsomeone that they could say OTOH- who is cha kuen?
Was he there? (yuanfen)
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That's what I mean... every good teacher has his own theory but whatever theory it is it must be practical. ie You're not gonna do a bong sau and follow with a lap sau if someone gives you a straight punch out of nowhere. That's ludicrous. (throw them bows!) (sez cha kuen))
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Why not? At a certain stage of development bong sau/lap sau can come out spontaneously against a punch--depends on timing and angle (sez Bengal Tiger aka yuanfen..since everyone plays name games!)

[cha kuen]

You're not gonna do a bong sau and follow with a lap sau if someone gives you a straight punch out of nowhere. That's ludicrous. (throw them bows!) (sez cha kuen))
--------------------------------------------------

Why not? At a certain stage of development bong sau/lap sau can come out spontaneously against a punch--depends on timing and angle (sez Bengal Tiger aka yuanfen..since everyone plays name games!)


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I am talking about in a non sticking situation. If someone comes up to you and just gives you a straight punch , you would do a bong and a lap? That's two moves that can be finished by one. ALso it won't work if the guy pulls his hand back because that's a 2 count.

It is completely wrong and will never work unless you're fighting someone who likes to hold his hand out for you to do your moves.

[yuanfen]

He he Cha kuen- you are changing the context...you were not as clear at first- you said nothing about bong/lop prior to contact in your earler post. Of course you dont bong or lop before contact.
So what is the point in even mentioning it.
In important things-The devil again is in the details.