Slave from day one

[shaolinboxer]

From www.shaolin-do.com

Your teacher is the source of your entire knowledge. They should be treated with great respect, not only for their physical ability, but for their ability to teach. When your teacher tells you something, you should believe it. You should follow their advice almost blindly because they have been there before. Grandmaster The' is probably the only person in the world with a comprehensive knowledge of the Shaolin system. You should treat him in the same manner as you would treat the President of the United States or other world leader.


We are extremely lucky to have him as our Grandmaster and you should not forget it. The old saying that familiarity breeds contempt is true, don't let this happen to you with your teacher or master. The friendlier you become with them the luckier you should feel and the more respect you should show. Loyalty to your teacher and master is a must. Without loyalty, there is no respect or trust. There have been traitors to us in the past and in almost every instance, the reason has been their massive egos, lack of respect and self discipline, and little or no loyalty. Don't let this happen to you.

[Paul]

ack, not another shaolin-do topic. nooooooooooo........

[Mutant]

I don't think anyone should ever stop thinking for themself and just blindly followed someone, even a 'grandmaster' or the President for that matter, without constant analysis, self questioning and evaluation. That's what our whole system of government is based on. I'm all for making a 'leap of faith' at times but never circumvent your brain and worship just because others have or are.

Deflating the ego and being loyal are good things, but should be done with discression and care. Don't ever become someones slave!!!

Masters are not the source of a persons entire knowlege, but they can provide the key, if lucky enough & able to find.

I do agree that there are living treasures out there who are vast resources of knowlege, who should be respected and learned from if youre lucky enough, and can enrichen our lives greatly. If you bring to them a blind sheep steeped in dogma, then youre doing them a disservice.

[norther practitioner]

you're kidding right......
(in a museum)
Yeah, so from left to right we have pictures and artifacts from Yasser Arafat, President George W. Bush, Boris Yeltzin, King Ludwig, and Grandmaster The.
Ok, you should definitely show mad respect to your grandmaster, but don't make the world leader anal.

[MonkeySlap Too]

And it goes on and on.

Do they give out complimentary packs of Kool aid when you go out the door?

Or is that just when the comet comes?

[Shaolindynasty]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Cody]

I do not think a teacher, or any one person is the source of my entire knowledge, and, in fact, a well known Yang Style T'ai Chi Master cautioned in his book that knowledge should come from more than one source. I think it was something very opposite to what you have said. Very old man; maybe he has passed. His last name might be Lliang (sp?), in Massachusetts I think.

Respect does not equal worship. And, in fact, I have never met a wise man. To believe everything a teacher tells you is to give up your inner training on another level. If the teacher is training you from the ground up and the intent is to develop your full potential in the art and as a human being (something that is not usual), I would say that one's attachment to that person and to their views would weigh heavily. However, in the absence of that, the student is kidding themselves and being led down the yellow brick road of chasing one's own tail, or even more serious misdirection and damage. Teachers (even Shaolin) are human. The abilities they have developed are part of the human legacy, the potential for which is present in some more than others, an indication of where we have come from and where we are going. Nothing more. The day they become gods, I'll say there are many gods who are human.

Blind loyalty can add up to fearing what you do not know. It does not necessarily result in trust or in respect that will stand up to ego (should that have an opportunity to go free). If I were a teacher I would not value it. I would turn your statement around to read that without respect and trust, there can be no true loyalty.
The teacher should respect the innocence of others. The teacher should be trustworthy enough such that each student can explore the innermost workings of self, and be respected by teacher for it. The teacher should allow students to be who they are, and to allow them to correct what Has to be corrected (not what needs to be changed to fit some predigested morality). For in people who know who they are and what they are capable of and who are free to be the best they are in and out of kwoon, there the teacher has a loyalty that cannot be forced by rules.
In this way one avoids betrayal. Too rigid an environment almost guarantees it to erupt in a serious context. In a relatively minor way, breaking some of the rules you mention might be considered betrayal.
The focus and devotion goes beyond any one person or group of people. While a Good person who teaches is worthy of love and respect, no person is worthy of worship, and none should demand it. Then, we have a cult.

Friendship with a teacher can be had a many levels, the most common of which is to be there to serve teacher's needs. This is not real friendship, but the student takes it as precious crumbs. Friendship is a two-way street, and it can be hard to determine motivation on either end.

A leader by virtue of being a leader, is not any better in terms of his/her humanity. He might know more. He might be kinder, or not. He might make his way in this world more efficiently, or just happen to be in the "right" place. He might realize his abilities and use his development to do good in this world, but the minute he looks down on, places his humanity above those he serves, he is less than they are. He can evolve for better or worse just like anyone. I tell you, the aura of political office was one heck of a comparison.

Cody

[Shaolindynasty]

Excellent post! Bravo, my hats off to you

[David Jamieson]

Well, that is an intersting snippet.

SD claims to have the most comprehensive offering of Shaolin skills and yet with Shaolin being primarily a Buddhist temple and secondarily a Martial haven...

Well, it is a strong tenet of Buddhism to "question everything" even the teachings of the buddha himself.

This was one of Guatama's greatest urgings to his followers and it was said perhaps in the hopes of avoiding the "cult of personality".

In the "cult of personality" the personality takes prevalence over the teachings. This is detrimental to the growth of the student in my opinion.

Any "teacher" who does not wish to answer questions about themselves to their students is exhibiting a seperation between the students and themself. When this is done, it takes from the validity of the lessons because it plants seeds of doubt in the students mind and ultimately leads to unfavourable aspects to the overall experience.

whereas, when someone offers something and they offer it fully without holding back, they are giving importance to the offering and not to themselves. This plants seeds of growth and allows for the relationship of teacher and student to grow to a relationship of peers.

If a teacher always considers himself or herself "above" the students, then the learning path for both is hindered.

From my experience, this is how it pans out in general with relationships from any angle.

To teach and to be taught are folds in the same cloth. It is the lessons that have importance. teachers and students are merely the vehicle for keeping the teachings alive.

peace

[Nexus]

What are you guys talking about? Of course GrandMaster The' knows the entire system. Treating him like the president of the United States would be dishonoring him. He should be treated equal to and no less then God himself, and photo's of him should be placed at equal height as the cross which hangs from your living room wall.

- Nexus

[old jong]

I know that I would follow this "grand-master" anywhere!...Specially if I was BLIND! (http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg)

[Radhnoti]

In my opinion, there is a faction within shaolin-do that uses "loyalty" to GM Sin (which also translates to loyalty to those with more time in) to keep others within the organization in line. I don't know whether to feel this is a negative thing (all the reasons already mentioned), or a positive thing (keeps the organization together). In any case, I seriously doubt GM Sin wrote the above (he may not even KNOW about it, can't imagine him on a computer)...in person he's EXTREMELY easy going.
I've heard that he is a taoist, I've seen a beginning student (a young girl) go up to him and tell him he REALLY should go to church, and isn't he afraid of going to he!!? He laughed and said he occasionally attends a church in Lexington and thanked her for her consideration. This story and a million more I've heard seem to indicate that he's not egomaniacal or overbearing, he's a nice guy who laughs a lot. Everyone here seems to be of the viewpoint that the author is attempting to hide something. I assumed he was talking about the teaching process. For example, I HATED a movement we were forced to memorize. It seemed SO stupid and I couldn't see a real martial application. I asked my instructor what it was for and he responded, "Just trust me and do it." Later when starting a new form we came to a certain point and my instructor said, "And HERE is why we practiced that earlier movement." After which he showed us how to incorporate the move into the form and it's application. Teachers shouldn't have to worry about stopping and explaining every detail of their training/teaching methodology, the students SHOULD respect that they know what their doing.
Kung Lek, I believe GM Sin's viewpoint is that the temple had a religious leader and a martial leader. Seperate specialties, of which GM Sin is a descendant of the second. Quite different from the way the Temple is now...which makes his viewpoint controversial. However, he is not the only person claiming to be a shaolin descendant who feels the Shaolin Temple has changed it's "curriculum".
That's probably enough to get me nice and flamed, but sometimes I go against my better instincts... ;)
Shaolin-do IS probably what you would call a cult of personality. That is to say everyone stays with the organization because of GM Sin, and everyone who knows him seems to love and/or respect him. Without him, what are the chances that the groups spread across the U.S. would take their cues from one person? In my opinion, Slim and none, and Slim just left town.
All this has been my personal opinion, obviously as a student with only a year or so in the system I'm no expert. But if anyone ever has any questions they'd like to ask they can e-mail me and I'd be glad to try to get back to them with an answer.

[Paul]

Take this.....
>>>I've heard that he is a taoist

combine it with this.....
>>>Grandmaster The' is probably the only person in the world with a comprehensive knowledge of the Shaolin system

all that comprehensive knowledge of a buddhist system of martial arts and he is a taoist......bwahhahahahaha. good one.

Sure do seem to be a lot of contradictions associated with Shaolin-do.

[Radhnoti]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
I believe GM Sin's viewpoint is that the temple had a religious leader and a martial leader. Seperate specialties, of which GM Sin is a descendant of the second.

:)

[Paul]

how convenient.

[SanHeChuan]

gee paul i didnt know you had to be a buddist to practice shaolin:rolleyes:

[relax]

hehe.. what is wrong with that great grandmaster.. looks like a cavemen there.

I've never seen grandmasters looking likle that, long beards yes, but bigfoot lookalike? no.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg

[joedoe]

I was always told that Shaolin had a single leader. There may have been a person in charge of the martial training, but they still answered to the Abbot. I could be wrong.

In any case, blindly following without questioning or exploring a teaching is dangerous. Regardless of who wrote the passage, telling people to simply follow and trust in someone without questioning sounds extremely suspicious to me.

[Paul]

I never said you did have to be a buddhist and I knew someone was going to try come back with that one. Most people don't claim to be the only person in the world with a comprehesive knowledge of the shaolin system.

I didn't know that bak mei, bagua and hsing-i were shaolin arts either. learn something new every day.

[fa_jing]

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."

It's hanging on my cube wall, along with a couple pages of Bruce's "Epigrams". He didn't make them up, but he knew how to pick'em. My interpretation is that if a student is overly influenced by his teacher, his/her self-development will be stunted.

-FJ

[gfhegel21]

The whole thing smacks of "cult of personality." Did you see the photos of the head instructor wandering around the shaolin temple wearing his gi with all those goofy-ass patches? What's the point of going to a shaolin temple that's completely state owned and run?

Oh, and did you check out his newsletter? It turns out the master won't be much available because he's in LA working on a movie script. So he's more than just a martial leader, he's also a writer and potentially a movie star! That picture without his shirt on is enough to tell you the guy has ego problems.

The guy is a businessman, nothing more. First, cook up some story about how he is part of some lineage to the famous shaolin temple. It's important that the story be more or less impossible to verify, or falsify.

Second, create an "association" that allows you to mint teachers and bring them under your tutelage. Write a periodic newsletter so that the instructors feel like they're getting something for their money. Lay down slavish devotion in the charter of the "association."

Third, make everybody wear gis so the style is recognizable and appealing to the general mcdojo crowd. But the Chinese spin allows him to have a unique "branding" so he can distinguish himself from the mcdojo crowd. In other words, he can claim he's not just teaching mere karate! He is teaching ancient secrets of the masters!

He's a businessman, nothing more. I find his stories about being the single largest repository of knowledge of the shaolin system extremely hard to swallow.

[David Jamieson]

before this turns into style bashing and name calling. The items laid out in the original post are not only inherent to the school itr comes from.

there are numerous examples of these types of occurances in all walks of life. The merit of the thread lies in the discussion in regards to how to see these items laid out and maintain harmony in our selves.

It doesn't matter which individual or group is espousing this concept to the uneducated. It matters that this type of thing is still going on.
As Kung Fu practitioners, one should have respect for their teacher, but respect is earned and given it does not require pushing with words and attitudinal intent.

Just a different spin on the question at hand.

peace

[Shaolindynasty]

That stuff reminds me of alot of things I hear from "good christians":rolleyes:

[Budokan]

"You should treat him in the same manner as you would treat the President of the United States or other world leader."


Wow, you mean I can hang him in effigy too? Neat.

(I know this comes as a surprise to you, you kool-aid-drinking-waiting-for-the-mothership-in-the-tail-of-the-comet-bonehead, but respect has to be EARNED.)