MA- fighting vs. religion(or philosophy

[Shaolindynasty]

This topic is inspired by the Yang Cheng Fu thread. I was wondering how many of you feel the MA is seperate from Chan buddhism and Taoism. Do you think that NO arts were born out of this philosophy or is everything(MA) a part of this philosophy. In your training do you intergrate the 2 or are they already together? I personally feel that Chan or Zen is formless and can be expressed in everything we do. So what are the Martial arts to you, just fighting and learning to defend yourself and be healthy or are they a path to spiritual enlightenment?

:confused:

[Water Dragon]

Fighting. I go to church on Sundays for spiritual enlightenment. For philosophy, I'm a big fan of Nietsche

[Starchaser107]

Taoist arts will have taoist principles used and applied in the arts, but does that mean all the practicioners Must be taoist?Not really it just means that the practicioner should understand these principles, or rather how the technique works to execute them in the right way.
Shaolin is essentially a Buddhist Style , but I serously doubt that all Shaolin students must accept Buddhist Dogma for the techniques to work.

BUT TO THE QUESTION

Is all martial arts created out of religion and philosophy.
No. I think that came later, what came first was the will to survive, and after many years the meaning found itself in there.
This is for the external side of the arts.
The internal arts are probably all based on if not "religion" then some form of deeper philosophy.

Can martial arts be practiced without getting into the Spirituality of it, well yeah but I think thatd be an aweful waste of time if you wanna do internal arts, or if you wanna do an art thats both hard and soft all your learning is punching and kicking,people are strange creatures and sometimes even the slightest thing like saying "you should breathe this particular way, or do this with your mind" they frak out thinking its wrong/immoral, you might as well be karaticizing or taeboing . Some people might have a problem with the word CHI or the cultivation of it. Some might have a problem with the dual nature of the yin yang or grand ultimate union.
but to each his own.

[red5angel]

I started studying ma in high school, some karate. I found that knowing the history of it helped me to understand its methodolgy. So 2 years a go when I started studying Wing Chun, I wanted to go behind the scenes and follow its roots. With just about any Chinese MA, this path takes you to Buddhism, and Taoism, etc..... I have been recently studying those and although I am not a spiritual person per se, I have found a jewel that is becoming more precious to me everyday. Taoism to me makes a lot of sense, and seems to be making more sense everyday. This has built me up spiritually, and I think for me it has helped me in my MA. It hasn't helped me to kick hard or punch faster or hold my stance longer, but it has helped me to understand what it is all about, what the lessons are in each movement and where they come from. I dont think it is for everyone, for some it is a sport, for others a matter of survival.

[Suntzu]

"fight now, pray later"
don’t have a clue were that came from but it seems to fit here.

[Chang Style Novice]

Don't make me bust out the parable of the blind men and the elephant again.

[Ky-Fi]

Certainly you don't need to learn kung fu to be a buddhist or a taoist, and certainly you can learn to fight without delving deeply into those religions/philosophies.

However, CMA and all the great CMA masters of old came out of the Chinese culture, and when you want to study some aspect of another culture in great depth, it can be nearly impossible to completely take that subject out of it's cultural context without losing SOMETHING. Now, that "something" may not be too important to you, and may not affect your ability to become a good fighter, but to pretend that those philosophies had no relevance whatever to the art or the artists would probably be less than accurate, IMO.

[Shaolindynasty]

"Shaolin is essentially a Buddhist Style , but I serously doubt that all Shaolin students must accept Buddhist Dogma for the techniques to work."


Hmmm.....I think alot of people don't really understand what chan Buddhism and taoism are about. Accept Buddhist Dogma? The word Dogma defeates the purpose of Chan and the meaning of the Tao.

"I go to church on Sundays for spiritual enlightenment"

I guess alot of people seperate spirtuality from the rest of their life but I don't. I find enlightenment in everyday life. Maybe I'm unique but I find spirituality in everything.

[Chang Style Novice]

Once, there were five blind men. They heard that a circus had come to town which held many exotic wonders, so they went to find out for themselves. When they arrived at the circus, they asked where they could find the wonders. A barker told them, "Why right in front of you is the greatest wonder of them all - an elephant!"

"What is an elephant?" They asked.

"Come and discover for yourselves." Said the barker, and led them to the animal.

The first blind man held the elephant by the trunk. "Oho! So an elephant is a huge snake!"

The second touched the elephant's ear. "No, an elephant is a fan."

The third grasped the elephant's leg. "How can you two be so foolish? An elephant is a tree."

The fourth walked right into the side of the creature. "What do you mean? An elephant is a wall."

The fourth was struck by the elephant's tail and exclaimed "Why an elephant is merely a rope."

[taijiquan_student]

Well, look at Tibetan buddhist history, I think you'll find there was lots of dogma, and a very healthy dose of hierarchical bull coming from the church/government as well.
Although, ideally, taking only the buddha's teachings, you are right--adding dogma to Buddhism does defeat its purpose.