What proving ground, by modern standards?

[Wongsifu]

just a quick question in your opinions, this goes especially out to people like merryprankster.
Let us say an individual wanted to be crowned best in the world or one of the best in the world of martial arts. Mainly by American standards, what would he have to do ?
Would you believe entering the ufc is enough ? would he have to win pro level kickboxing and muay thai belts also ? would you believe he even has to win pro boxing in his weight class ?
Or do you believe there can never be somebody who could be classed as one of the best ?

[prana]

Wongsifu

For me, one will have to be able to sit silently in the land of snow and high altitudes for 3 years 3 months 3 days and 3 hours, and after such intense a feat, should be able to melt a block of ice in amidst the snow mountains.

And of course, that master will show the lacking of the 5 poisons and be in abundance with the perfection of speech, thought and heart.

How are you anyway ?

[Wongsifu]

prana :D
good answer

I am well as always, i dont post much on the forum as i spend more time practising, and in general i am bored of the level of the conversation on the forum.
On another note i remember the lamas in tibet about 80 years ago used to practise for entertainment and for testing, how many wet blankets they could dry out , they used to sit by the river (or snow) in freezing cold temperatures, dip a blanket into the river (or snow) and wrap themselves up in it then mediatate and see how long it would take for th eblanket to dry up . not bad eh ?

I remember reading your post about the old lama you helped , do you have a guru ? or do you try and learn for yourself ?

[Tigerstyle]

prana,
Bah! Any schmoe could do that! I want to see someone consistently defeat all takedown attempts with one-punch KO's. ;)

[Wongsifu]

tigerstyle, im sure youre not the only one who would like to see that so i wouldnt doubt it happening all in good time ;)

[NorthernMantis]

Tigerstyle- The streetfighter rocks!Where did you get that avatar?

[Merryprankster]

Honestly?

I think a person would have to go out and show themselves in an event like Pride or the UFC.

I am aware that there are rules, but it's the best we've got going right now.

I think people misunderstand crosstraining. They think its "spend a year here, spend a month there, mix and match, etc." It's really more about making yourself aware of other modes of attack.

I will ALWAYS primarly be a grappler. Even when I work Muay Thai, I have to force myself out of the clinch. But I am aware that somebody might hit me in the face or kick me.

Most people that succeed in those events have something they are VERY good at and then know enough about other dangers to keep themselves from getting destroyed by something foreign to them. Sakuraba has AMAZING submission skills and inventiveness. Igor Vovchanchin hits like a freight train. Sakurabas not that great a striker though, and Igor doesn't have a ton of ground work, as examples.

Can Sakuraba outstrike somebody like roy jones jr? Nope, but he could take him down, and now it's saku's world. Roy Jones would have to prevent the takedown, and given the fact he doesn't TRAIN that, it's a little unlikely. Roy Jones may have wrestled, this is just an example...

The first few UFC's really showed what can happen when somebody is unused to a specific set of dangers. Boxers were taken down and destroyed, thai boxers seriously wrecked people with leg kicks, boxers hit people in the face when they weren't used to dealing with that. Dan Severn took Royce Gracie down but was unaware of submission defenses and Royce got him. That kind of thing. Now, with some rounded out training, these specialists can become VERY dangerous. Mo Smith has perfected the "sprawl and brawl," for example, avoiding the takedown and beating many people with his kickboxing skills. Randy Couture, a Greco-Roman bad-ass, can box a bit and with his upper body throwing skills is pretty good at taking people out :)

You need to be aware of other venues of attack than just your specialty or it's a bad day for you.

The wave of MMA competitions will be this IMO: San Shou, Muay Thai, and some form of groundfighting. San Shou for integrated kickboxing and throws, Muay Thai for knees and elbows, and the groundfighting for escapes, hold-downs and submissions.

[Wongsifu]

thanks merryp , would you say that igor vovchanchin can hit as hard as vanderlei silva.

Also by this rationale do you deem the pride and ufc champions definately some of the best in the world ?
Also what about comparisons of vanderlei silvas power and endurance etc compared to that of k-1 competitors ?

[prana]

I remember reading your post about the old lama you helped , do you have a guru ? or do you try and learn for yourself ?

Wongsifu :)

I am very happy, as I now have a guru of which to be guided on the path of Vajrayana. Thanks again for your kind thoughts and heart towards Lama. Lama is happy, and that is most important, but Rinponche has expressed his wish to send Lama back to Sikkim and I would be happy to accomodate if he so wished...

I understand your concern, myself tend to fall into the stream of mindlesness... *guilty*. Ahhh such ignorance I exhibit. but good to see that you have such discipline to return to training, it is very inspiring

I do have a new name too, and it is under the lineage of Karmapa, so I am greatly honoured. I am glad you are well, and I wish you the very best. Om Mani Padme Hum, Wongsifu.

[Wongsifu]

prana just out of interest what is advocated on your path ? raising of the kundalini or opening the chakras until the third eye and then entering inside ? or things like excessive pranayama ?

[Tigerstyle]

Tigerstyle- The streetfighter rocks!Where did you get that avatar?

LOL! I just did a search for Sonny Chiba on Amazon.com and saved the image of the Streetfighter video cover. I cropped out a part of the image that I thought would look good small and created it with PhotoShop.

And I agree, Streetfighter rocks. :)

[prana]

My main practise if that of 'Phowa'. If perfected, a good Phowa master can send the consciousness of the deceased towards Amithaba. Jetsun Milarepa is famous for the mastery these dharmas.

[Wongsifu]

what is your main goal ? is it to achieve perfection (in any way that is needed) and never be reborn ?

[Merryprankster]

I don't know about comparing Silva and the K-1 guys. I think he'd have to get in the ring to find out.

I SHOULD amend what I said before I get myself in trouble.

Being one of the best FIGHTERS in the world is different than being one of the best martial artists.

Rocky Marciano would be a good example. Not such a great BOXER, per se, but a tremendous fighter. Would you want to learn to BOX from Marciano or Sugar Ray Robinson? I mean, I don't want to learn how to punch from Igor Vovchanchin. Have you seen him punch? Looks terrible. I could do the same things he does and I'd get myself knocked out :)

I would personally deem guys like Sakuraba, Randy Couture, Renzo Gracie, Silva, to be some of the top fighters and MAists in the world, yes. However, if you look at somebody like Gary Goodridge, I certainly don't think he's a great MA'ist... guy trades primarily on being very big and strong.

Bottom line, if you are trying to set the trap that I think you are trying to set :) is this:

It is possible to be a great fighter and be not the most technical fighter in the world. I don't think you can call yourself a great martial artist if you can't compete with great fighters, however.

So no, winning Pride or the UFC does not automatically connote being a great martial artist because you can be a great fighter and not be a great martial artist (Marciano), however, great martial skill MUST connote great fighting ability (Sugar Ray Leonard) or it is not martial.

I would like to add that I am discussing simply personal abilities here, not the ability to teach. Totally different.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I think to be named the best, you just need to take the word of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' whose word cannot be questioned and must be beleived. :p

[Merryprankster]

MonkeySlapToo,

I agree. This is why I have renounced all other styles except Shaolin-Do. I devote my life earnings and all my time to serve in his army...er....learn from his wisdom.

[Wongsifu]

**** merryp !!! that was more complex than a scientific definition of chi :D
In all truthfullnes it was no trap it was just to see from others perspectives.
Unfortunately all the people who are forever arguing about bjj and mma whooping kung fu arent here today to tell me what they believe is the best proving ground to being no1 in america!!! go figure.

[Merryprankster]

nah, I didn't really think it was a trap, I was just realizing that I shouldn't confuse being a good fighter with being a good MAist, but you CAN'T be a good MAist without being a good fighter IMO.

Yeah. Pride, UFC. IVC has a lower level of comp in Brazil, but I believe the rules are more open. Don't quote me though.

I don't think it's too farfetched.

Best Boxer=undisputed professional champion
Best kickboxer=k1
Best Wrestler=Olympic Gold medal/World Champion
Best Judoka=Olympic Gold medal
Best TKD'er=Olympic Gold Medal

Best all around guy=Pride, UFC champions.

There will always be arguments about what that means, but nobody says that saku and silva and couture and newton aren't badass!

[LEGEND]

I agree with MERRY.

[shaolinboxer]

Impossible, as greatness is relative to the observer.

[David Jamieson]

True- greatness is relative to the observer.

But to the masses, the only title that counts in fighting on a worldwide basis is the title of heavy weight champion of the world in boxing.

Pride and UFC are still considered distateful and a joke by many. The fighters do not have much merit in the eyes of the world and it is viewed through the same eyes that enjoy entertainment wrestling such as wwf and the likes although the participants do inflict damage on each other moreso than the professional wrestlers do.

Still, the Boxing heavyweight champ of the world is recognized as such pretty much worldwide. The network is bigger and stronger and the fighters absolutely have to be top notch and paid their dues before they're even allowed to step into that venue.

While there may be many great fighters in the world, the modern proving ground is in the square circle with the best of the best boxers,

The rest is novelty and it's participants are soon forgotten by the general public.

Everyone, even those who have never seen them fight have the names Cassius Clay (Mohamed Ali), Joe Fraser, Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Joe Lewis, Rocky Marciano, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis and the likes in their heads.

Even the middle weights and cruiser weights and the rest get overshadowed in the presence of these names.
Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran are definitely mentionable though.

So, if you have the egotistical need to prove yourself as a front and centre world class fighter, then in this day and age you will only be recognized as such in the heavy weight boxer category.

peace

[Jaguar Wong]

Kung Lek,
LOL. Yes, if you're only out for fame and money, pro boxing is where it's at. Where else can you claim to payed outrageous amounts of money per second? (In an older issue of Sports Illustrated, when Tyson was on top, they calculated his earnings at $40,000+ per second spent in the ring!!! :eek: ). But if you're only out to test your personal skills, what better way than with the wide variety of competion in the MMA circuit (strikers, grapplers, throwers, brawlers, etc). You have to be well prepared to deal with that, and if you can adapt to many different facets of fighting, then you're better prepared for the real world (Please don't argue about this being different from the street, I already know that ;)).

Wongsifu,
I think Igor is a much harder hitter than Silva, but Silva is much more technical, plus he's got better kicks and subs. You would have to look to the heavyweight pro boxers to find harder hitters than guys like Tank, and Igor V. They're probably two of the hardest hitters in MMA. Other great strikers have a lot of power, but not as much as those two. They make up for that with precision and speed, though. Look at Pedro Rizzo. Tank was a much stronger puncher, but he still got KO'd by Rizzo (one of the cleanest KO's I've seen). Also when Rizzo fougth Tra Tellgriman (sp?), Tra was much more aggresive, but Rizzo weathered the storm, and KO'd him with a much cleaner, sharper shot. It wasn't even a power shot, just a short tight hook.

MerryPrankster,
We come from different sides of the street (I'm a traditional MA'ist -- Northern Shaolin Kung Fu), but we share the exact same training philosophy. Excel at one aspect, prepare for the rest. I'm still a striker, and even though I don't do much BJJ anymore, I still use my experience to develop my skills. I'm learning alot more chin na, and shuai chaio (although I wish there was an actual Shuai Chiao teacher here in Vegas, instead of picking my forms apart and looking for the throws and takedowns), because of a lack of time and availability to break out the mats and grapple.

[David Jamieson]

Hey Jag-

I was merely pointing out that for recognition on a global scale outside of the various martial arts communities (which are not recognized by the general public) one would have to fight in the world heavyweight boxing championships.

for testing your own skill and proving to yourself your own skill, well that goes without saying that it can be done anywhere in any venue of your choice.

peace

[Ryu]

Have some time to post.

If we're talking about just physical skill then yeah, I'd agree with MerryPrankster. You've got to show it in those kind of competitions.
I've recently noticed that some of the NHB stuff is becoming more "WWF" like, and even getting more sexually explicit with ring girls, etc. :( That's a turn off to me, I hope it doesn't go down that road, or it will become a "joke" to lots of people.

But the fighters there know how to fight.
If you're talking about best "fighter", the UFC, Pride might be the venue to see it.

But if you're talking about best "fighter" in a street sense, I don't know anyway you could prove it.
Maybe someone who can win situations over and over again (i.e. Police officer, etc)
There's other aspects to fighting other than simply trading blows with a big guy who can kill you.
If I get into a fight with a huge cage fighter, pull a gun, and order him on his stomach, secure him, and have the police arrive.....who "won the fight"?

Ryu

[MightyB]

It would be nice if there were some unifying bodies in the martial arts. I know that people are trying to organize as we speak, but it's not uncommon to meet a "World Champion" who won his title at the Golden Chicken Festival in NoWhere Arkansas in a competition with 3 people from his own school.

I think that Martial Arts have to get a few general unifying bodies or leagues like boxing before we can start making assumptions on who's the best.

[Nichiren]

I would like to add another aspect to being the best MA:ist in the world. I agree with Merryp. but something that bothers me is the preparation before a fight. Take one of the best BJJ guys in the world, Rickson Gracie! He prepares 3 months before a fight and studies his opponent thouroughly on videotape. I think this is common on this level.

I would like the best MA:ist to be "normal" trained, no extra fight training!

[MightyB]

That's modern performance training methods in action baby!

To be a champion, you have to train like a champion!

[Wongsifu]

interesting so the general agreement is ufc pride, thanks thats what i was looking for, and i understand where kung lek is coming from as regards to boxing .

about the gracie who studies the opponent for three months before he fights him i believe this is why bjj had the success it did, no body from the commercial schools knew what it was like 100% to be able to counter it effectively.
If the gracie had been practising some obscure form of duck boxing still with this element of surprise in it it would have been an equal succes.

[Merryprankster]

Wong--

Gotta disagree with you there. Grappling, real, honest to god grappling, was largely ignored by most MA's. An unusual form of duck boxing might have surprised some of the other guys, but they were still strikers at heart, and know how to handle 'that kind' of attack. Grappling really was 'new' in the sense that they didn't know how to deal with the situation.

Also, if you rent some pride and ufc tapes, be prepared to see some REAL CRAP from an technical perspective. On the other hand, you are going to be thoroughly wowed by the abilities of some of the fighters.

As far as greatness being relative to the observer... I've got REAMS I could write about that :)

Gotta run!

[LEGEND]

WONG SIFU...the martial art world has and still disregard grappling...u can look at no under than the various KF and TKD forums and still answer..."well if he tried to take me down I would hit his spine or spin kick him!" RIGHTTTTTTTT! Those that accepted crosstrain...those that live in ignorance will stay blind.

[Archangel]

"As far as greatness being relative to the observer... I've got REAMS I could write about that "

This reminds me of when I was watching the Hopkins-Trinidad fight with my brother and some of his friends. I was seeing an amazing display of footwork, evasion and counter punching. While a few of my bros friends (who were Goju Ryu Karate students ) commented on how these guys had no skill. HAHAHA!!! I just had to shake my head and laugh.

[LEGEND]

I would laugh at your friends also and ask them to step in the ring with AMAUTEUR boxers.

Trindad vs. Hopkins was a great great fight...prob. the fight of the year. I haven't seen that type of counterfighting...since TYSON vs. HOLYFIELD 1. Hopkins simply evaded...circled and destroyed TRINIDAD. Trinidad could not adapt and was KO. Fight of the year! Respect to HOPKINs and his corner for sticking to GAME PLAN.

[MightyB]

Boxing is simply the best stand up martial art to cross-train in. I love the sweet science and feel that every martial artist should do some cross training in boxing (when they're young) to really develop a sense of timing, footwork, and to add that dimension of realism that lacks in some schools of MA.

I find it slightly irritating that so many martial artists look down on boxing. People always talk about how to defeat a boxer by doing this, that, this, these, and those without ever experiencing what it's like to sparr against a boxer. "Kick low, their footwork is inferior, yada yada yada..." You won't be able to kick a good boxer low because their footwork is **** good. Plus, they probably can take a punch a lot better than most people can and they are usually in peak physical condition. It is true that it isn't as "developed" as most martial arts because it has a limited number of techniques, but the simplicity is what's so beautiful about it. You have real real combat using a set number of techniques which really opens you up to using strategy to defeat an opponent.

Sorry for the rant--- I just hate seeing boxing dissed so easily.

[Archangel]

Actually that fight kinda reminded me of the Sugar Ray/Hagler fight. Fight of the Year though? possibly. The only thing caveat I had was this fight was too one sided. What really astounds me though, is the fact that Roy Jones Jr. destroyed Hopkins in their fight, winning every round.

[Leonidas]

To find out the best Crosstrained MMA, i'd go with Pride or UFC. A proving Ground for the Best Martial artist i would have to say a Lei Tai like tournament. Truthfully there is nothing close to it. Maybe a good old fashioned Bar brawl but those are too chaotic.
If your willing to go to SouthEast Asia to test your skills then thats your best bet. Or you could test yourself against 5 battle hardened Muay Thai Fighters straight out of Thailand and see how long you last. I Truthfully dont buy into needing groundwork to defend yourself in a streetfight. Dont want a firefight, its just my opinion. I think UFC and Pride are just sports. Fun to watch but sports all the same. Also whats the dif' between a Martial Artist and a Fighter. They both do the same thing. They both defend themselves. I know the dif' between a brawler and Fighter/Martial Artist. Is that what you meant

[Merryprankster]

Well, I'd say this.

It's kind of like the all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.

To clean it up a bit for this analogy:

All martial artists SHOULD be fighters, but not all fighters are martial artists.

As far as not needing groundwork, I sure hope, for your sake, that you never get taken down or tackled from behind.

[Ryu]

I really don't understand when people say they don't need groundfighting at all to defend themselves in the street. Why take a chance getting stuck on the ground when there are so many skills to learn from out there?

Oh well.

Ryu

[Leonidas]

I'll learn how to defend against it, maybe with a well placed elbow or knee, and i would certainly want to know escapes. But i wouldn't train myself to get tangled up with someone on cold hard concrete. I dont need to explain about friends getting the urge to "contribute" to a fight. But say it was one on one. Dont you think breaking someones arm is alittle bit extreme. You dont have much choice cuz you cant make em tap out. You would end up kicking and punching anyhow, (So why not train to master it instead of dividing your time) unless you have the stomach to bend someones limb until it *CRACKS*. Think about how you would look in the eyes of a judge. Lets see. A lucky right jab leading possibly to a knock out(He jumped at me Judge), or tackling someone (or getting tackled for that matter) to the ground, flipping them over and applying enough strength to break a limp or joint. Even if you claim you were defending yourself you may get jailtime or might even have to pay hospital bills the way the legal system is screwed up these days. Besides, imagine how silly i'd look rolling on the ground with another guy in NYC no less.;) :p. I may be old school but i also believe that if you get tackled to the ground you were doing something wrong.

[Jaguar Wong]

Leonidas,
I know where you're coming from, but in my eyes, learning escapes is a part of "groundfighting". It doesn't matter which style it comes from, as long as it serves it's purpose. If There are some good reliable Shaolin techniques to get back on your feet, it doesn't make it any better or worse than the BJJ equivilant as long as they both work.

Also, you can also choke the guy out. No visible damage, plus he stops pretty easily. :)

[Leonidas]

I see your point Jaguar. I didn't think about choking and i do know that most Kung Fu styles have anti grappling techniques. I'm never gonna go out of my way to study groundfighting though. i guess i'm being a harda$$ about it but thats just me. Way back when i was down with the whole MMA craze. i was gonna even train it. But somewhere along the way i clicked and got turned off. Dont remember when. In any event i'm gonna stick with what i believe. Maybe one day a street mugger will kick my a$$ with some Brazilian "wrestling" moves. Who knows. For now i'm gonna train to stay on my feet. There is really only one rule when fighting where i live, and thats to NEVER ever hit the ground. Do whatever you can not to, even fight dirty which is gonna happen anyway. How are you going to go to PLAN B if your rolling in the dirt for a hook or choke. PLAN B is of course a sucker punch and then a run for your life.

[Archangel]

" I Love it when a plan comes together "

For those of you who remember the A-Team it always seemed that their plans always succeeded. Unfortunately Leonidas this is real life, and what you invision and what you plan doesn't always come to pass. "Never" hitting the ground is ideal, however what will you do when you actually do get taken down, out of your element. Are you just going to lay there and try to punch like so many other strikers before you and get beaten to oblivion. Is learning how to sprawl,****zer and use a defensive guard so difficult a task? If you really are training for the streets maybe you should swallow your pride and accept the possibility that you could end up on the ground fighting for your life.

[Shaolindynasty]

I've been in quite a few "street fights" up until maybe 2 years ago, I had a wild teenage years. I got taken to the ground once that I can think of and that was cause I got jumped and nobody tried to grapple me they tried to stomp me. The other times I can think of going to the ground was due to me punching the other guy, I instinctively followed into the "mount" position and proceeded to pund the guy in the back of the head. Yet another 2 times I remember me and my friend stomping people on the ground but I was standing. When I look back on all the streetfights I had only a few ended on the ground and no grappling was used. A couple of fights have been ended with one or 2 well placed punches. So for streetfighting is grappling nessacary? I don't think so. Would it help? Maybe. When you talk about experienced martial artists the whole thing changes. "Ground fighters" are highly specialized in what they do, that is why they are so well respected. Similar to boxers, boxers only use hands but they are so good at their paticular chosen techniques that they are respected. For a Kungfu man it is important to figure what your specialty is and develop it to the max and find out about the strengths and weakness of other styles and how to win using your best techniques, not your weak abilities in other styles or techniques. Simply put make them fight your fight.

[Leonidas]

And exactly how many street fights have you been a party to. If i end up on the ground i'll try my hardest to get back up, because if i do end up on the ground i'm 100% sure that no ones going to follow me down. They may get the bright idea to plant their bootprints into my face though. I cant believe i'm going through this again but in the dozens of fights i've seen and thankfully not been a part of none but a couple have gone to the ground and the attacker in this case doesn't go into the "mount" but he wisely decides to punch and kick the person in the face. It's less risky and 100 times quicker. The defender is so shocked that if they haven't already fallen on their heads they have no time to block which leaves a perfect 2 second window of opportunty for the attacker. I see absolutely no reason why a criminal nor a civilian would want to roll around on the ground with someone. Especially since both parties are trying to end a confrontation as soon as possible. Can someone explain how it is better to try and armlock or choke someone than to strike at them. Imagine how hilarious a mugger would look trying to mount someone and then apply a spinelock to steal a purse or wallet, when a simple timetested punch and run combination would be much more efficient(the chances of getting caught are dropped and if by blind luck the victims get the upper hand your F*cked). You can choke someone while standing from behind if you wanted. Throughout history i've never heard of groundfighting being trained as an essential military skill. I've heard Armies trained in different types of Wrestling, but all those styles would be akin to Shuai Chiao. When you get thrown you've already lost. No one knows fighting better than the military. All that would be needed after throwing an opponent would be a well placed sword stab. I have nothing against Grappling and i realize it's essential, but there are different type of Grappling besides tackle and tumble. My point is i cant find a reason for anyone to use groundfighting. It was a secondary skill but now alot of people make it primary which makes their self defense skill suffer.

[Shaolindynasty]

Leonidas- Hold on buddy I am actually agreeing with you! Turn of the defensive mode.

Maybe I should elaborate I was trying to say that was the ONLY time I ever went to the ground under my own power and he fell face down and I didn't want to let him up so I jumped on his back and pounded the back of his head. The other time I got jumped and was stomped until I managed to get a branch that was on the ground and get up to hit the people, luckly I had friends who lived on that block who came out to help. Both of these instances were before I took any Martial arts. Afterwards I've been able to end fights standing while srikeing and throwing the opponents then stomping them. I agree "grappling" as a system has been big in the last 10 years, I personally beleive it is a fad. But the systems like JJ and others have more to offer than grappling. That's just the flavor of the month right now, man it's been a long month.

[Archangel]

"If i end up on the ground i'll try my hardest to get back up, because if i do end up on the ground i'm 100% sure that no ones going to follow me down."

You should know by now that nothing is 100% on the street, you should expect everything. Look, I've been in my share of fights as well and I completely agree that the ground is not where you want to be. HOWEVER, sometimes you get taken there and unless you know how to defend yourself on the ground your going to get messed up bad.

One more time

-Going to the ground is not going to be my first option on the street.

-I'm going to use all of my wrestling and striking to avoid the ground actually

-If I am taken there in a scramble i am going to know how to defend myself by using my ground fighting skills to either escape or look for a submission.

Ground fighting is a neccessary skill for the street.

[Shaolindynasty]

"You should know by now that nothing is 100% on the street,"

I agree 100% :)


"HOWEVER, sometimes you get taken there and unless you know how to defend yourself on the ground your going to get messed up bad."

True, I agree with this


"Ground fighting is a neccessary skill for the street"

Yes this is true to but as long as by groundfighting you mean you are open to other methods of ground fighting than "ufc type submission". Learning to strike and use small joint manipulation on the ground is also important. Also you need to look into control by pulling hair, and be able to use and guard againts fish hooking, eye gouges(this is done to death but), bites and just about any other dirty tatic you can think of. I generally like to keep my body away from the oponent since it is possible for all types of damage from knives etc. With that being said I have actually worked on and used submission so with my stance against having to learn it, well..................They can still be useful

[Leonidas]

Dont worry Shaolin, I wasn't referring to you. My point was no one is going to find a reason to groundfight if they have the upperhand. They wont risk loosing it. Your proving my point Archangel. nothing in the street is 100%. So why would you try to ground fight someone. No matter how skilled you are you might loose. Why would you put yourself in that postion. What if the person is stronger and by dumb luck they mount you and pin your arms and they pull out a knife or pick up a glass bottle lying around. If you atleast kept a distance you would have options. I'm saying that in a street fight you shouldn't do techniques that are risky and trying to get a submission is as risky as they come.Right next to attempting a Flying Roundhouse. What would you do after you have the submission. Are you gonna sit there. Are you gonna to break the attackers arm?

[Shaolindynasty]

In keeping with the 100% thing. Sometimes the risky movements are the safest in a fight. Unorthadox moves are great, since a "flying roundhouse" is considered unorthadox by most MA now using one at the right moment could win you a fight, seize the moment and use a suprise attack. How many of you have had trouble with unorthadox movements in training, hard to deal with isn't it. In real fighting I don't think any movement is to risky and any movement is safe. Nothing is 100%. You have to use anything that the moment demands. to quote Bruce Lee- If you are talking about real fighting then you better train every part of you body.

[Leonidas]

I agree with you on that. Sorta like Monkey Kung fu. And i have nothing against kicking high. I guess you just have to know when to go for it. But I wouldn't grapple someone to the ground. What do Martial Artists know that people 2000 years ago didn't. All we have are more gadgets, better ways to kill each other and maybe possibly better healthcare (Not even sure of that with all the medical knowledge lost). People are still as stupid as before. Why is rolling on the ground essential to surviving a fight in modern times. Ancient Peoples certainly had to depend on their fighting skill to survive. Not like today with guns and missiles. I hate when certain people(Not neccesarily anyone here) act like they invented a revolutionary idea, not just martial arts but in general.

[jun_erh]

the thing about training is it's not fighting. If you are "training" without equipment and to the point of knockout, isn't that really just a fight?
Also, do you want to know how to counter a grappler? Simple, look at what is against the rules at UFC (pressure point strikes, headbutts, etc)

[LEGEND]

Leonidas...in answer from a grappler perspective...YES...I would break an arm or a leg of an opponent! The last thing I'm thinking about in a fight is uhhhhh LEGALITY! Cause one u're philosophy is to HIT and RUN...mine is to BREAK/CHOKE OUT and RUN! Very similar but different methods. You also say there have been martial arts( striking??? ) that has worked for thousands of years...well we( Grapplers ) can say that also...based on WRESTLING in Greek and Roman times. Hey...these guys fought and died in many of these events. In modern times...at the more FIGHT likely spots...nite clubs and bars...you have BOUNCERs imploying the famous rear naked on many resisting opponents...also police officers that use plenty of grappling submission hold/choke outs!

Another thing you have to be real about is whether some people are NATURAL STRIKER or NATURAL GRAPPLERs. For one...I have trained and taught many people on basic striking and grappling...what I've found is some people are good at striking while others even if they train for 6 months are not! There instinct is to duck and tackle...so not everyone can be the STRIKER. It's all human nature base on different size and style...maybe that's why there are sooooooooooo many styles!!! The creators of each CMA style felt that they had to modify their previous style to fight more effectively...if there was one superior style than everyone would have stuck to it! But there is NOT...it's all based on the individual and what he does best!

[Leonidas]

It doesn't matter if you think about legality or not. Breaking someones arm is considered premeditated. Not by throwing them onto the floor, but holding them down and twisting their joint so far the wrong way that it breaks *CRACK*. What if you kill the person in a choke. More likely you'll go to jail for choking someone to death than striking someone and then making them die. Would you wanna go to jail for your attacker? I know wrestling has along history but there was no tapping out in a Roman Colosseums. If they were tangled up trying to get a hook, a soldier would of marched out and killed them both. There wrestling had more crippling throws than submission moves. You would throw someone on the ground and punch, kick, knee, elbow, eyegouge..... until they were dead. The Greek style wrestling was also like this and also had many casualties but it was still played as a sport. I'll admit submissions were used but in half the cases in resulted in a broken bone and no one was held accountable. Flash back to today and like i mentioned you'd fry. Just because a person is suited for Grappling doesn't mean it has to be submissions. What about Jujutsu, Judo, Aikido, Shuai Chiao, Old style European Wrestling.

[LEGEND]

LEO...why would anyone want to stick around after a fight??? I don't understand if u were to use your STRIKING and KO someone and stick around...if I was to break or choke out someone why would I stick around??? Also striking has been known to kill people...it's called hitting them and their skull hitting the cement=death.

Regarding ROMAN times...exactly dood. Modern day combat grappling has all those u mentioned...when on the ground we knee the opponent in the side mount...when on the ground we punch people while having a knee on the belly...are u thinking that as pure grapplers all we do is grapple and just look for submission??? Striking for US( grapplers ) is design to create space...to force an opponent to bring up there arms to turn their back so we can lock in a tech. It is our way. Biting and eye gouging is in my opinion overated...I have eye gouged an opponent before...didn't stop him from biting me...lol...only a choke out did!

[Archangel]

Shaolin,

I'll be d a m n e d, I agree 100% with your last post


Leonidas,

"My point was no one is going to find a reason to groundfight if they have the upperhand"

I agree with you, if I have the upper hand why would I risk going to the ground. But what if you happen to face a better wrestler who is able to take you down before you can sprawl or strike ( Believe me, there are guys who will try this approach). Are you going to turn your back so he can choke you out? are you going to let him get mount so he can smash your face in? Or are you going to get good position, attack his eyes, throat, whatever and make your way out. This is can only be accomplished with a good ground game.

"Your proving my point Archangel. nothing in the street is 100%. So why would you try to ground fight someone"

you are the one that said : "because if i do end up on the ground i'm 100% sure that no ones going to follow me down". Now you are contradicting that statement. Anyways, I stated that I would only groundfight someone if I was TAKEN there by a better wrestler or by fluke.

"What if the person is stronger and by dumb luck they mount you and pin your arms and they pull out a knife or pick up a glass bottle lying around"

Tell me how would not knowing groundfighting be more advantageous in this situation

"I'm saying that in a street fight you shouldn't do techniques that are risky and trying to get a submission is as risky as they come"

Actually, I kind of agree with you here.;Submission would not be my first option. If I were caught on the bottom on the street I'd be looking to sweep and then escape but if a sub is there I would go for it. It's better than doing nothing and just taking damage.

"What would you do after you have the submission. Are you gonna sit there. Are you gonna to break the attackers arm?"

Of course I'm not going to sit there, I'm going to get up while the guy is nursing his joint that now bends both ways. And if a cop asks me, all I'm going to say is I feared for my life.

[Merryprankster]

Leo,

I think you're completely missing the "grapplers'" points here.

I will say it first: I am a grappler. I would not choose the ground in a streetfight.

I cannot run away.
If the person has friends, I will receive a boot-stomping.
If the person has an accessable weapon, I might very well be on the receiving end of that.


Now, here is what you are missing:

You talked about rolling around on the ground. The MORE you train on the ground, the LESS TIME you have to spend there if you don't want to. Against an untrained person, I am confident that I can get up and away in under 3 seconds if I have to. Without my groundfighting skills, I'd be rolling around a LOT longer than that. That's much more time to get bootstomped.

You discussed an elbow or knee as the takedown defense. I'm going to tell you you are wrong, and I don't mind saying it. The problem is that your strike has to do one of two things:

1. It has to hit me so hard, I completely lose my forward momentum and can't get hold of ANY part of your body.

or

2. It has to take me out of the fight.

How many one punch knockouts have you seen? This smacks of the "one shot one kill," fallacy.

Try elbowing or kneeing an incoming shot from a competant wrestler sometime. We shoot as fast as you can react with a knee or kick or even punch or elbow. If you have phenomenal speed, a tremendous ability to stike on the move and knockout power, feel free to use this as your defense.

Eyegouges, biting and smalljoint manipulations are not the answer.

I was eyegouged in a wrestling match and completely lost my depth perception (WIERD FEELING). I won anyway. If you are close enough to actually eyegouge me (vice eyestrike), then I am close enough to get hold of you. I don't have to see to grapple.

Biting had best sever tendon, ligament, or blood-vessel, or I am going to make you VERY sorry you tried that. I've also been bitten while rolling, and it hurt, but was hardly a fight-ender, and just made me madder, so I choked even harder.

I have dislocated both thumbs, three fingers and two toes while grappling. Small joint manipulations don't stop the fight.

If it goes to the ground, you're doing something wrong...what if the other guy has done something RIGHT? Anything can happen. Learn to defend the takedown, defend yourself down, and then learn how to get back up in a big hurry.

Lastly, submissions are just options, like anything else.

But please, don't take my word for it. Make friends with a good wrestler and spar them sooner, rather than later.

[Leonidas]

By groundfighting i meant submissions. Nothing wrong with groundfighting. I would use a takedown to punch and knee someone if i had to, which is a different type of groundfighting . Most all martial arts styles had takedowns. What i was saying is i couldn't find any use for submissions holds. My opinion of how to handle any fight, multiple attackers or not is to stay on your feet and keep a distance. Sorta like in boxing. Stick and move. If someone shoots for a takedown then sidestep or use their energy against them Aikido style and throw em'. Nothing wrong with training in escapes to submissions, since they may be needed. But i wouldn't learn how to use them.

[Merryprankster]

Not a bad strategy. One I advocate, with some grappling modifications.

But lay off the crack on "sidestepping," and "just using their energy against them."

A side step won't do a bit of good on a shot. It must be combined with a sprawl. Lateral movement just isn't enough by itself.

All grappling arts use the principles of leverage and momentum to execute techniques, so "using their energy against them," is a highly developed art in any grappling style. We know ALL about angles. You can't "just," do it.

The only throw I've found that is consistently available off a shot is the wizzer grip uchi-mata, and that is only easily available off an attempted single leg.

Won't work off a double or a very low single... or an ankle pick and god forbid they try a penetration to clinch and you try uchi... you'll get murdered.

I'm going to be blunt:

My understanding of striking, albeit limited, is just enough to understand that what you have suggested isn't the answer to a properly executed takedown attempt.

However, I don't think you've had any real grappling experience (ie, trained or rolled with an experienced grappler). I could be very wrong, in which case, I withdraw my comment. I would suggest that you train seriously with a grappler and work out the appropriate strategies. I think you'll find, oddly enough, that grapplers--who spend a great deal of time defending takedowns, have organized the most effective means of stopping them.

[Ryu]

The use the "energy against them" argument only works when you can train it and do it against real grapplers. Grapplers have a vast knowledge on leverage, and molding with energy just like Merry said. The kung fu guy I worked out with and sparred yesterday tried to do the same thing. I came in for a clinch, grabbed him after he had kicked, and he turned to try and throw with a sidestep, sweep technique...but, he didn't have the leverage or position to pull it off, and I (having defended throws all the time in judo) simply moved behind, took him down, and mounted for some punching.

But I will say that I don't want to roll on the ground looking for submission either. To me, taking someone down and stomping, or punching them IS groundfighting. You see it in NHB all the time.
If I clinch with someone and throw them down, I'll be punching either from mount or knee on stomach (or just standing on my feet) This to me is still groundfighting. I think punching is actually MORE effective on the ground at times considering the person cannot move as freely as he could standing up.

Ryu

[Kristoffer]

I think my goal is to be able to say that Im good. Or great :)

[Jaguar Wong]

Merryprankster. It's that last sentence that's the key. :) I mean there are some good takedown counters that I've seen in Northern Shaolin, but they're all for use against other Norther Shaolin style takedowns, or untrained fighters. I'm sure that if I drilled and drilled I would be able to get it to work after some years honing and perfecting it against many other styles, but why is it considered "unholy" to seek a professional takedown artist, and find out why their stuff works so well?

I've got a friend that wrestled in state level competitions that had takedowns so good that we outlawed them while sparring (which was the worst mistake I ever made ;)). He used to show us the sprawl, and how to execute a proper shot against each other, so that our other takedown defenses would be tested better (none of them worked too well after that). The only problem was that his shot was so clean that even if we sprawled out of it, he still had the leverage to take us down some other way.

He didn't stand back at a kickers distance and dive in. He would bridge into a punching range, then close for a clinch, and then shoot...very fast. If you're so dead set against studying the "groundfighter's way", then at least take Archangel , LEGEND, and Merryprankster's advice and hone your strategies against someone who knows what they're doing, so that when an unskilled thug tries the same thing, it'll be cake.

Shaolindynasty, you brought up something that really shocked and confused me, since you were against groundifghting. You mentioned that the only time a fight went to the ground (I'll leave the "jumped" one out) was when you punched someone and took the back mount to pound the back of their head. Is that an argument that a fight will never go to the ground. Are you saying the same would never happen to you? And if it does, how would not knowing any escapes from the back mount be helpful in that situation? I really don't think people need to go seek the guidance of their nearest BJJ purple belt, but at least wake up and see the possibilities that something may just go against your "script" when it comes to self defense. I've got friends with no real groundfighting skills, but after takeing them down so much, and tapping them out, they got much better at scrambling and escaping back to thier feet. I know I'm not the best grappler (I'm mainly a striker), but when I'm being outclassed on my feet, I change the setting so I can mentally catch up. The problem is that they're learning how to get back to their feet a lot better (although their takedown defense still sucks...as does mine ;)), because we're training with other people that prefer the grappling range as well.

I'd type more, but you guys get the point. It's all been said already anyway. :)

[Leonidas]

On the contrary. I'm not dead set against grappling. I actually want to learn how to wrestle. But we were talking about down and dirty, life and death street fighting. Which is why i said i wouldn't train in submission fighting to defend myself. I think the style i can hopefully learn has a set made specifically for groundfighing escapes. Eventually when i get to sparring level in it i'm gonna challenge as many people as i can. That includes boxers, wrestlers, brazilian "wrestlers", other kung fu stylist, karate..................you get the point. I might even compete in Southeast Asian tourney's if i get good enough. That how serious i am about learning how to fight. So i know how important it is not to underestimate how other people fight.

[Merryprankster]

If you have been training for longer than a few classes, you should be sparring NOW.

[DelicateSound]

Amen

[Leonidas]

So...........whats your point.

[LEGEND]

WHOA!!! Hold on dood...so u're not sparring now??? If u're not sparring now...then I guess my point is you can't FIGHT!

[Leonidas]

What do you mean i cant' fight. Been in plenty of street fights. Just dont have any lessons in an organized martial arts style. I know my limitation though, and i been searching for a kung fu school. Trust me, i can hold my own. I guess you would call me a street brawler. So what, 99% of people never took a martial arts lesson in their life, thats why i want an advantage.



.

[LEGEND]

Dood...there are plenty of martial art skools in NYC...I have a friend who trained with RENZO GRACIE skool in MANHATTAN...now he trains at a MUY THAI skool run by COBAN. You can look it up...I also know that there is a TRADITIONAL WING CHUN SKOOL there and some boxing skools around. Shouldn't be a problem for you to get your STREET BRAWLING skills to a higher level.

[LEGEND]

By the way...what is this about SOUTHEAST ASIAN TOURNAMENTs??? I'm VIETNAMESE. Never heard any well known SOUTHEAST ASIAN Tournaments. Unless u're trying to study thai boxing and trying to assimilate the thai culture u can go there. Much cheaper to go to a MUY THAI skool in the city.

[Leonidas]

No thanx but i already found a school. Been researching for a very long time. I hope i get excepted. I read some BS about it being a "Sifu's Art" but i dont buy into that.

[Leonidas]

I'm not trying that at all. You never heard of the Tourney's in SouthEast Asia. There are many. You should ask around about it. Assimilate Thai culture. Are you serious? Nothing wrong with it but come on.

[Merryprankster]

I think he means

"assimilate thai women."

Were you asking what my point was? My point was this: If you are in a school that requests you obtain a certain "level," before you spar, and that schools level is something like 6 months, then bail.

Find yourself a school that spars... and not that soft touch point sparring garbage.

But, it seems that you're not yet in the school of your choice and have no way of knowing yet, beyond what they may have told you.

[Leonidas]

Thanx for clearing that up.

[LEGEND]

Leo...that's what I mean...assimilate the women...u know...I sometime practice JKD concept...way of the intercepting COUGH COUGH...but please do so with TROJAN MANNNNNNNNN.

Oh u mean the KUMITE in SE ASIA...yes...yes...a great event it is.

[Merryprankster]

I think I saw a movie about this once.

There was a guy named Frank Dux and he beat the snot out of all the other guys. He has the fasted hands ever and started his own style of Ninjitsu.

Dux is my hero

[LEGEND]

Hey Merry...I'm thinking about going to some of these SOUTHEAST ASIAN TOURNEYs too...**** AMERICAN tourney sucks! I like to fight against guys lot smaller than me...hell I might win!!! Tired of fighting you WHITE/BLACK ROUND EYE fighters...me go to HO CHI MINH CITY. Fight in the PHO 75 tourney.

[Ryu]

I wonder how many here will get the "pho" joke?

Ryu

[Leonidas]

From what i've seen, **** right most American Tourney's suck. Am i wrong. Save for UFC and Pride and sh*t like that. I might do it all. Maybe i'm full of sh*t and i'm probably not thinking realistically but i dont plan to let years of training go to waste, doesn't matter where i fight at. I thought you could respect that. Screw it though, its not going to change anything........ and by the way I could wipe the floor with Frank Dux.

[Merryprankster]

If I fight in the Pho 75 tourney, then I will use my soft beef tendon technique, coupled with a Nuoc Cham attack.

After that comes the Caramel Pork in a Clay Pot maneuver. That's my finisher....

Pho Bo... nothing better, in my mind. It raises noodle soup to complete glory. Pho Ga isn't bad, but not as good.

The Vietnamese and Thai people have a way with simple ingredients that blows your mind. They've even got the Chinese beat, in my mind.

Leo, relax. We aren't having fun at your expense. It's just that everybody thinks of bloodsport.

Have you considered entering a Bando Tournament? I believe this is the Burmese style of "boxing." As I recall they allow all the Muay Thai weapons, plus throws and headbutts, and also "vital point striking."

[LEGEND]

LOL...I'm sorry dood...but u have a serious misconception of SE Asia. The only thing there tourney wise are various MUY THAI events. And sorry dood...unless u plan to represent a THAI CAMP...u're not welcome to fight. I know of nothing in VIETNAM. Burmese has BANDO but so does the USA...we have BANDO fighters here that go to various full contact standup events and do well. The TRUTH is...Holland( bigger fighters ) and Thailand( smaller fighters ) has the best Thai/standup style fighters! In MMA it is the USA and JAPAN. For the truest VALE TUDO( anything goes except eye gouging and nut strikes ) it's def. BRAZIL. Asian fighters in SE asia has great difficulty meeting the nutritional demand to fight against the heavies. In other western countries...u have guys that are around middle weight and light heavy weight level average. We are mostly fly weight fighters. But of course in MONGOLIA. hehehe...now if u want to fight in a STANDUP fight...hell...just do MUY THAI/BOXING/TOUGH MAN/SAN SHOU tourneys.