A Challenge to the masters of Chi...

[MightyB]

Guys and Girls,

Here's your chance to shut me and every other skeptic up and make a ton of money doing it.

It's the Million Dollar Challenge of the James Randi Educational Foundation http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

All you have to do is:

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event" --(Taken from the Million Dollar Challenge Web Page).

So, there it is. Shut me up, prove your power to the world, and make a million bucks!

Now don't pull the Miss Cleo/Jonathon Edwards "I can't express my power for financial gain" (irony in itself, why the books and 900 numbers then?) thing.

Found this Challenge on the Web.

Have fun.

I promise this will be my last contribution to the Chi/Ki debate...



...until the next thread ;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Dayyaaaaammmmmmmmmnnnnn, if only Turyian could post his "awesome Chi power in two weeks" sweetness hahahahahahha

[shaolinboxer]

Unfortunately, chi does not fall into the catagory of "paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event".

[Steven T. Richards]

I doubt anyone will take you up on that. I published the same challenge a couple of years ago in a UK martial arts mag and simply got slagged-off by the editors/publishers - obviously for daring to point out that the 'Emperor has no clothes'.

There is far too much BS and auto-suggestion in martial arts, but sadly such truths are not popular.

[Steven T. Richards]

Shaolin Boxer,

I think that you'll find that Rhandi, the Sceptical Enquirer magazine, and CSICOP - the 'Committe for the Scientific Investigation into Claims of the Paranormal' would be more than very happy to accommodate anyone with alleged Chi powers.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Randi leaves little to be desired himself, he is a man without credibility. One should question his motives and his fears behind why he sets up such lame and superficial challenges. To be honest what ever way the "so-called" conclusive results go everyone knows that Randi is no benchmark of credibility.

[Cody]

Other potential can be enhanced by chi training. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to where one begins and the other starts. That's where the joke is. Trying to figure that, and seeing thru the trickery that is bound to occur is another area of comedy if viewed thru ridiculous-colored glasses (made by same manufacturer as rose-colored glasses; what a patent!).

ho hum,
Cody

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think proving something and investigating something is a little different.
There are many people in China and other parts of the world quietly working on what these effects are and are not.

What would a high level chi gung master have to gain by accepting such a test? If he/ she was not interested money or fame. :cool:

They know it works and the people know it works since what ever is happening makes them better.

The idea of proving something that you know or believe to be true, others that you work with also believe it, for what?

seems like the ones out to disprove stand more to gain, the question is really why are they doing this.
money and fame, why would a chi gung master help them in this.

[fa_jing]

I can meditate and reach a point where my dan tien area begins to physically vibrate strangely. I can direct energy to make parts of my body feel tingly. I know the feeling of the "bubbling wells" This is chi power. However, it is not super-para-normal or any of that ****. In fact, the requirement is so vaguely worded that any actual phenomena will not fit the bill.
-FJ

[Bak Mei]

Non internal fighters are always viewing the internal as some out there, mystical thing. It's not. It is based purely on science: alligning your body properly so it functions at its maximum, breathing and distributing air at its maximum and a study ofmphysics, disecting lines, angles and muscular system study.

Chi is there, but as my Master has taught me, its not something you throw out there to harm, its used to protect oneself, think of it as a reinforcement.

I was not a skeptic before, because I surely believe in this force that is obviously present, it grows all of our finger nails, even while we sleep, but never experinced it in a martial way. I have been training with Master Bong Chan now for a year, and it is real. I have felt the beginning stages of it I guess, a heavy, gravity type feeling around my hands and forearms. But more than that, I feel connected, to everything. Like I'm in a constant zone. I hear what I need to hear to progress or make desicions, I see answers everywhere.

This is no longer martial, but living on a higher plane. Laugh, dismiss, it's your life, live at the level you choose for yourself. Your mind creates your reality.

As for Martial however, I'll tell you this: I've studied Isshin-Ryu for 13 years, Hung Gar, Wing Chun and SHouthern Mantis, Internal fighting is a completely different ball game, like comparing two girls slapping each other, or Tae Kwon Do, with really good S. Mantis or Hung Gar -- not even close.

I suggest if you want to taste internal, find a good hsing-I or Ba Gua club and cross hands with them. Well worth it. It took myself over a year to be lucky enough to find my master -- I will never be the same.

Sceptisicm is great; very important. Otherwise you believe everything. But do not close your mind to possibilities.

I am not one to accept the chi throwing across the room (haven't seen it yet or done to me so I am a sceptic), but when a 60 year old man who weights 135 lbs and throw a 27 year old who weights 210lbs (me) after attack with full power, well, there is something there -- he obviously is not using strenght or speed as external stylist know it.

This is the truth. If you live in the NYC area, respond here. I am always willing to cross hands so you can feel the difference between internal and external.

Hope all is well.
Ray

[MightyB]

I'm looking into studying some Hsing-I after the Holiday season.

Cheers

[norther practitioner]

A bunch of you have the wrong idea of chi, I am not going to explain it, you have to really discover chi on your own

[MightyB]

Then why'd you post?

Enlighten us.

[Bak Mei]

Northern is right.

I just gort into this the other day with WC guys to swear Wc is internal. When you know internal, you'll know that its not.

Dynamic tension is not internal, in fact, heading in the opposite direction.

Get a REALLLLLLYYYYYYYYY good teacher. Then have fun.

[Steven T. Richards]

Rhandi's arguement is not something that stands or falls by his credibility as you put it. BTW you did not specify what the problem is with him, and, if you do specify it, can you prove it?

In philosophy, an attempt to ridicule an arguement by calling a persons character into question is a well known fallacy called 'argumentum ad hominem' and such things are rightly dismissed.

Rhandi is not the only source, I for example listed three.

In my challenge, I suggested that the scientific journal 'Nature' be invited to adjudicate and publish the results.

BTW, I have investigated trance states, healing, chi and many, many other related phenomena since the 1970's and am a consultant in complementary medicine in the UK . It isn't simply a case of scepricism for its own sake, but more a question of providing proof for certain claims.

I'm more than familiar with the usual 'mystical' responses that pass for reasoned research and am long unimpressed by them.

There is a very serious side to all of this, and that is the the quackery that goes on with claims to cure illnesses such as cancer - sometimes in children. I have known people die as a result of following the advice of chi-gung 'masters' - whose only authority came from cultish suggestion techniques and dogma, issued to sick, terrified and vulnerable people.

To make it absolutely clear, I am not saying that effects do not exist - however - the atribution of said effects (with certainty and dogma) to specific causes (e.g. chi and meridian channel manipulations) has no basis in proof at all.

The different explantions worldwide, for these effects are usually hijacked as evidence in favour of one cultural or emotional belief.
It is said that the other explanations/theories are 'just chi' (for example, under a different name. That relatavism is almost never applied to the favoured culture. To do real research, it would be necessary to eliminate what is unnecessary in the understanding of what are very diverse practices - cultural baggage that hides rather than reveals any active agency.

A useful comparisson is western healing and chi-gung - exactly the same (apparent effects) but, no meridians, no accupuncture points, no breatrhing exercises are necessary.

About the 'making of money' - in my published challenge I suggested that any takers could donate the money to a charity of their choice - and pointed out how a successful delivery of proof would revolutionise world medicine leading to the saving of millions of lives - still - no takers.

A scientific study of chi-gung breathing exercises (using measurements in end tidal C02 regulation with an infa red mass spectrometer) - show that they are hyperventilation exercises, which create a state of respiratory induced alkalosis in teh brain - a natural inducer of trance states. Much psychiatric literature since the 1960's has pointed out the role of Central Nervous System alkalosis in mental disorders and transitory first rank schizophrenic symptomology.

We, we martail artists, should not be afraid to face up toi these things in case the magic bubble bursts - we should (must) have the courage to find the truth. If our art is anything more than elaborate ritualised BS we have nothing at all to fear and we may advance the sum of human knowledge enough to help a lrage numebr of suffering souls.

[Turiyan]

Originally posted by MightyB
Guys and Girls,

Here's your chance to shut me and every other skeptic up and make a ton of money doing it.

It's the Million Dollar Challenge of the James Randi Educational Foundation http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

All you have to do is:



I've already spoken to randy. I challenged him to show proof that he has 1 million in escrow and to pay up to the person behind issue I brought up to him that he doged in classic randy style.

Learn about the issue your talking about before sounding dumber than you look.

[Turiyan]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Dayyaaaaammmmmmmmmnnnnn, if only Turyian could post his "awesome Chi power in two weeks" sweetness hahahahahahha

Nice picture of your roundeye son. Just wont let this one go. Looking for ideas? Hmmmmmm? The problem with people like you is you think you can get anything handed to you for the asking.

[Black Jack]

Pleasezzzzzzzzzzzz!!!

When and where did you talk with Randy, what powers do you have, adamantuim claws, night vision, leap a building in a single bound, regeneration, the ability to **** out gold eggs!

Money is not the issue, the claims you people make are.

[Dark Knight]

How do you explain the KO's that people like Dillman can do? Is it a disruption of chi? or the electrical system in the body/ Im not saying it is chi, but the KO's do work, Id like to get a good explination on it.

[Black Jack]

I have seen no proof that Dillman can do ****, except beat the crap out of his commune of followers.

It will be the day he graps a non-follower and does one of those goose turd "one touch" knockouts on somebody who is swinging back.

[Dark Knight]

Go to a seminar. Its easy to say it doesnt work if you havent gone.

[Wongsifu]

fu(king hell man im soo sick of all this sh!t for ****s sake **** **** ****. If you just go and ****ing pick up a book from china they have done 1000000000000000000 ****ing scientific experiments . How many ****ing times must this be written.
They have scientifically proved chi . Man how many ****ing times . ****.
Im sick of reading this **** for ****s sake !!!!
why doesnt randi spend his 1000000000 dollars to go **** some hookers so he's not so randi any more, if he and his ****ing cronies were so ****ing interested in chi they would ****ing go to china and see all the scientific wank wank ******** they have come up with it.

Now can we all ****ing stop kicking about this dead donkey of a theory of lets understand chi and ****.
go meditate for ten ****ing years at least an hour a day and unmderstand what you can do wiwth chi.
**** man im sickk of this fuuuucking ****.
****

[Godzilla]

I have seen Randi perform magic. Sometimes he reveals magicians secrets to the audience. He appears to be credible and I enjoyed the show!

I have been to a 2 day pressure point seminar in New York. It was not by George Dillman. It was by a local named Arthur Cohen. The seminar was great and convinced me this type of knowledge used for self defense is indeed extremely valuable! I have used pressure points during sparring and wrestling with fellow MA’s to good effect. No knock-outs though.

If this is the type of proof Randi needs to prove chi exists – he would lose his million. But I’m sure his requirements are completely different.

Godzilla

[Felipe Bido]

If a person shows Randi a TRUE paranormal power and Randi can perform the same feat with tricks, does that mean that the person is a liar?

I've seen Randi watching videos of people doing different kinds of paranormal stuff, and he says: "Ok, that is done with a fake object this way"...it's that proof that the person in the video was faking it, too?

[Steven T. Richards]

PPKO's invole real effects HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that it must be as claimed - chi-meridian channel interruption etc.

A 'Just So' story is not an explanation.

Getting all upset and emotional about it isn't an arguement.

A whole range of factors need to be considered:

Effects of the environment

Social conditioning.

Unconscious expectation (often opposite of consciously held beliefs)

Deliberate induction of trance states.

Overloaded trance state response in the brain/nervous system to pain stimulation or multiple sensory/psychological stimulation.

BTW, I have practiced PPKO's for more than twenty years and used them for real in police work. However, I find no proof whatsoever that mystical 'chi' forces are at work. That doesn't stop them being effcetive, it just means taht to understand them some real mental effort and learning in anatomy, physiology, psychology and more difficult disciplines such as psycho-neuro-endocrinology need to be studied. They are sadly, a lot harder than auto-suggestive BS to learn - but a lot safer to apply...

Claims for scientific proof publshed in China are not sufficient.
The results must be replicated and subject to peer review - as is the norm for science - hence my suggestion about the worlds laeding scientific journal Nature.

If you can convince them then you've succeeded.

Do the world a huge favour - PROVE it and release the knowledge for the sake of suferring and sick millions.
If not, well then it's just another quaint little set of fairy stories - provided of course, it isn't used to exploit the sick - even unto their unnecessary death...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Why would any one have to prove or seek to prove something that they believe works.
It would seem the proof would be proving that it is something else by those that disbelieve.

If the point is that it doesn’t work and is fake how dose that change any thing for those that believe it dose and swear by it.

(BTW. I saw one of Mr. Dillmans demos in person many yrs ago.
My impression was that it appeared he stuck the people in the neck area. What looks like a light tap may not really be so lite.)

If for the sake of argument none of it was true / how would you explain all the things studies and beliefs by many people to the contrary?

Some might say that scientific inquiry is independent of outside influences, from what I have seen they seem to prove or disprove what they believe at the start.

enjoy reading your post :)

[Dark Knight]

"(BTW. I saw one of Mr. Dillmans demos in person many yrs ago.
My impression was that it appeared he stuck the people in the neck area. What looks like a light tap may not really be so lite.)"

I have had them done to me, its not a light tap but not a hard shot. Some of the KO's are done on the arm, so that takes out the thought of them only being around the neck.

[Crimson Phoenix]

No, the problem with people like me is that they see the emptiness words from people like you try to hide.
Ask and you shall receive as it is said in many mystical traditions, if you are even just a quarter of what you claim to be, you'll understand this to the fullest...

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi BambooLeaf,

If something is believed, then there is no ned for proof. Its a question of personal disposition. The trouble is, when faced with competing explanations, in the absence of proof then belief may be just an issue of sentiment. If that is a persons truth value - then nothing more can be said.

I am VERY interested in the variety of different explanations. Proving 'one' does not in itself mean that others are false.

There is in all probablity more than one route to schizophrenia (as diagnosed - and if such a thing can be said to exist outside of a convenient classification). It is likely to be the same with other things. What you tend to get in martial arts though, is a dogmatic statement of belief about the supposed 'truth' of something. On examination - there is often nothing of substance behind the dogma. I can't strech my subjective sentimentality to accept such things as 'true' in anything approaching an objective way.

The motto of the Hellenistic Greek Sceptical Philosphers was:

'Nothing is certain, not even that...'

This serves as a check on runaway scepticsim. It asks important questions about claims for certainty in knowledge and of all areas of so-called knowledge - unreflective dogma is the most threatened by scepticism.

All competeing explantions have a subjective truth value - even objectively there may be much overlap based upon differences culturally in explanation, language, symbol, metaphor and so on.

However, it may just be a load of BS.

After 36 years in the martial arts I've sen and heard more than enough to know that much of it is just BS. That doesn't take anything away from the pure gold that is its essence - it just illustrates how difficult it is to find. Mysticism is the easiest way - it isn't difficult - it just needs a lowering of self-reflexive awareness and an openness to unwarranted influences from other people, groups or cults.

Pressure testing, physically, emotionally, culturally - that is the hard way...

[Steven T. Richards]

Crimson 'P',

If you refer to me (?) well, I don't hide behind a pseudonym, my bio can be checked out: a fuller version is published in Who's Who in America: World, Science and Medicine editions, I'm available 'in the flesh', and am very well known in the UK Chinese martial arts community and have been training longer than a lot of people on this forum have been alive. I've been been writing on martial arts since 1976.

If the above upsets anyone hard cack.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Steven, my post was aimed at Turyian, one of the only (if not the only) persons here that genuinely irritates me here. Even Sui Fuw generates a certain sympathy in me now...
I have no reason to personally flame you...but if I might say, it's too bad persons with a curricullum like yours have to be all defensive straight up, as the sufis say "the tiger doesn't pay attention if mice attack him".

[Steven T. Richards]

Sincere apologies, I'd like to be able to say that I misread you because for some reason I'm on multiple threads tonight and am plain tired, but, I probably was as you say too defensive.

Very sorry, hope that you can accept the apology.

Kind Regards,

Steve.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Thanks Steve,

(answearing my earlyer post)

I too have been training for what some might call a while and have seen and felt many things that I could not explain then and only starting to understand now.

I have my own thoughts on this but enjoy the discussion provided and ideas shared.
It would be my hope that we all can find explanations that are consistent with the reality we live in.
Weather it be the mystic dogma that you speak of or the rigors examination of what is called science.

What ever it is, I find it very interesting

Again good reading

[MonkeySlap Too]

As far as Dillman goes:

His students are all excitable - who isn't when they about to be knocked out?

And they are not moving. Just standing still. I have never seen a single case of moving application.

Some of the points he strikes, the angle and direction, can cause permanent harm to physical body structures.

There are 'knock out' strikes, but Dillman is not really a good representative - at least from my point of view.

Which is stated above, so no flames please. I'm sure he's a heckuva nice guy.

[Black Jack]

:)

Monkey Slap, thats what I was trying to get at up above. As a midwesterner it is was not hard to come across a "big three" seminar.

Dillman, Wally Jay, Grandmaster Presas, nor is it hard to find a student of Dillman like his boyz Rick MoneyMaker, or someone handed down from Dillman or MoneyMaker, almost as widespread as TKD down here.

I have yet to see any of his students do what he does or the man himself knock out a spectator or a student who was fighting back.

Shiznit, even I can knock someone out if they just stand their and grin at me.

:D

[prana]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steven T. Richards

You should seek the stories of the 16th Karmapa just before he died. Some behaviours he exhibited is still unexplained today.

Here, let me start you off...
http://www.karmapa.org/16karmapa/16ka3_9.htm

[Crimson Phoenix]

Don't worry, Steven, there is no need for apologies, as there were no offense :)
Take care!