Certification

[mantis7]

Does paying or knowledge eqaul to the assertation of skil... I dont think so. Being certified by a known teacher make you a Teacher. NO atany given time a student can fall out fo grace from a teacher be it from wanting to do there own school and sanding n there own merit. To becoming more popular than there sifu and the sifu not liking i. Or even if the student some hows disrespects the sifu. They seperate but thestudetn still has eh knowledge and the skill but not the sifu's permission.

Being a teacher is being a person who passes on knowledge ( hopefully Valid) on to a stident or disciple in hopes of the information to be desminated to others.

A pece o paper is not needed to display teaching credentals. How well you teach will be self evvident when your students act, train, respct others, as well as fight and teach.

Back in the days I doubt other CMA sifu's worried about paper work they were more worried about the skill they had and beingable to physically holding the name and there sifu up high on their shoulders.

LOL that i why the old days of challenge matches should come back and the advent of NHB should burn up all the paper tigers and HIstorians ( there is nuthing wrng ith them as long as tehy can put up and show they can do more than just recite text)


well thats all for me as before my keyboard burns up from this tiraid....


Vince Night ( victor from da bronx)

[Fu-Pow]

A couple questions:

Were the good old days, necessarily better? Or is it just wishful thinking on our part?

[TenTigers]

"A student will search ten years for a teacher. A teacher will test his student for ten years" -The good 'ol days.
Before we taught to the general public, or for our career, Sifus took alot longer to admit a student into his teaching. Bai-si ceremony was the rule, not the exception, and certainly not simply to charge a fee and make some quick cash. Judging whether a student had character, and was not a character, took time, effort, patience...hey , isn't that what Kung-Fu means? So I suspect, that these situations did not arise with the frequency they do nowadays.

[David Jamieson]

I'll tell ya, if my doctor didn't have a diploma on the wall as verification that he was indeed a doctor and fit to practice, I wouldn't attend his clinic.

I would not attend a Kung Fu school wherein the Teacher was not confirmed as such by his teacher and peers.

I wouldn't hire a lawyer that hadn't passed law school and I wouldn't hire an architect that didn't have a degree either.

Training in any discipline requires the actual proof and verification that you have met certain criteria.

If you don't have it, or you have forged it, then that is something that will come out in the wash.

also, because someone is a fighter doesn't mean that they know how to teach. The certifications and papers are the means to verify that you have been tested and have been accepted as a instructor or teacher or have met the criteria to be at an acknowledged rank.

They are importnat and even in the old days a piece of paper or some other mark, verifying a students place of education was called for.

peace

[DavidLatin]

http://www.tatwong.com/connecticutschool.html
Here's a good example of a "paper tiger".
He learned from a credible teacher...but only through video correspondence, not in person. He has now been authorized to be an official branch of Tat Mau Wong. He is charging people money to have the priviledge of learning something from him that he learned entirely thru video :eek: !!!!!

[David Jamieson]

I have to ask you, do you think that what he learned via correspondence on video is invalid?

Do you think that there is a process in place that applies checks and balances to those who receive video instruction?

Do you think that the Shaolin monks, (many of whom started their kf learning from books) would not have made use of this echnology if they could?

My point is, video is used as a teaching aid in many curriculums covering a wide area of subjects. Not just Kung Fu and there are plenty of people out there who legitimately study via this process.

When video correspondence is undertaken, there are exchanges between the person studying and the person who made the tapes. there are visits for corrections if needed. If the program doesn't offer this but puts out paper that certifies people who "buy" the video, that will only reflect on the quality of that one school and that one teacher who made the video.

I don't buy into the idea that video is no good, I think that it is mostly espoused by people who cannot learn in that way or have some jealousy or just don't understand that there is good instruction in a distant learning format and there is bad instruction in this format. I personally don't think that Tat Mau Wong sifu's instruction would be all that bad as his Kung fu is really quite good actually.

I used to say the same line a few years back and I have trained with a teacher in a kwoon for the better part of the last seven years. recently i moved 1000 miles away from my teacher and practice by myself now, but with the foundation I have been taught i have been able to learn a couple of forms from video and even adapt them to the grounding I have.

also as a side note, I have a kf brother who stopped training at the school at a point in time for personal reasons. one day he decided he was going to learn one of the sets from our curriculum from a book and an old video of a demonstration the school gave.
in the meantime, I was taught the form from our mutual teacher.
when i ran into him, he showed me the form he had learned from the book and the video.
He did the form as well or better than i could and i was directly transmitted the form. So that was my personal experience and lesson in life that changed my mind completely about this type of learning style employed by kung fu people.

anyway, point 1 - don't bash other people here for the sake of bashing them

point 2 - you can learn from video if you have a good foundations/grounding

point 3 - correspondence training in any subject opens that world to the message.

peace

[DavidLatin]

It's a question of ethics, a person should not charge someone else for forms he learned from videos. The person is paying for direct "transmissions", so essentially, the teacher is charging for something he had little (if any) of...
Martial Arts are about fighting. FIGHTING. I have yet to see a western boxer learn from video tapes and then go on to capture a championship belt. Sorry, you can't become a fighter thru video tapes. I do agree though that FORMS can be learned efficiently that way. But that's apples and oranges :D

[David Jamieson]

Well David, To fight you don't need to learn martial arts either.

Fighting is a natural response by those who would rather not run.

Fighting is refined through martial art. Martial arts themselves will not make someone a fighter. That natural "heart" to fight is a pre-requisite that is the nature of the person.

It won't change because you learned a martial art. It will change from the experience of being forced to fight though.

There are plenty of Martial artists who have never been in a "real" fight in their lives. Probably the greater majority of them.
Personally I am not one of them. My natural response to fight has been tamed by martial arts practice.

Besides, the link you posted refered to that individual as having plenty of martial arts training before taking on the Choy Li fut curriculum, so why shouldn't he be offering what he is offering.

The whole is the sum of it's parts. Each part is integral to the whole.

peace

[Colin]

The Tibetan Art of living states that "Tolerance & Acceptance are the keys to a happy and content life". You seem to be on the right path.

I just don't know about video training, because I can't see how the student can get the "rest" of the training. OK you can learn the moves of a form from tape,but surely you can't get as much as you would from personal instruction.
Saying this I do think it's better than nothing, if you live out in the sticks!
As for certification from video i'm not so sure unless the student actually goes and sits the testing in person.


C.......

[mantis7]

Greetings All.....



Well, sorry for not responding sooner. My point at the time was not put to much credence In a piece of paper. When you become a sifu, instructor or what have the paper isn't the validation carrying the system of your sifu. There are to many people out there saying yeah I am certified under so and so. But when there skills are put to the test their skills are of low grade
(not saying mine is any better)

Certification currently can be bought (i.e., sifu programs at most local and national schools) most learn the required hand forms, weapon sets and misc.

I think it should be required that if a person is to pass on the art at least be able to use it in a full contact situation. Yes, I know most fighters cant teach but ALL teachers of a combat system should be able to fight. NO EXCUSES true he or she will not be the best in the world (because there is always someone better than you out there. it is a viscous circle)

Do not be fooled just because your teacher trained under several famous sifu's in seminars and learned from video tapes that he or she is a legitimate proponent of said system.

Video tape usage has its place but it should be in used in correlation with training from a legitimate sifu. Most Correspondence course participants are graded by sending in video tape of themselves doing said form or tech. I am about 90 percent sure (leaving ten% out for those few who do) that most of these tapes are just glanced at because of the sheer volume that may be coming in. To learn a full system on video tape IMO is absurd. Yes, I have learned form from a video and then sought out someone to show me the proper way of performing the forms. When doing this I learned the proper fa jing and other small details that was not so apparent.

Now even if you go and study with a sifu of the video tapes for a crash course of a weeks training. This does not validate the person with a video certification. I know I will get some heat for this but hey them are the breaks. :rolleyes:

When learning like this you will receive either bad habits and mistakes or for a select few a pretty good understanding of self movement. usually this kind of training will double the students time learning the system (not like that is a bad thing ):D

but I guess to each there own. I just feel to many people put to much importance in where and who they are certified by and not worrying about if his or her skills are at the level that you can learn from. That is why the most famous teachers were of great skill and what did they do. The sought out other martial artist of great skill to test there skills and exchange ideas.

Would they go to someone whose skills were sub par just because they were the inheritor or student of a famous master or would they go to the person who had a Better understanding of said system and knew how to use it with a certain level of proficiency?

My moneys on the guy with the skill and not the person with the 20ft by 20 ft certification hanging on the Kwoon Wall.:p



my two cents

ITS BETTER TO BE TRIED BY TWELVE THAN TO BE CARRIED BY SIX.

Public service announcement :: This opinion may ruffle a few feathers and burn a few paper tigers::::


Vince Night

[Ginger Fist]

dam*nzilla mr. moderator ... u r right on - again ... mantis7
has a concern that is real tho ... a piece of paper doesn't have skill ... but a piece of paper indicates the named person might have skill ... plenty of lawyers who passed the state bar that suck at the practice of law ... plenty of doctors with board certification that kill patients every yr by prescribing wrong medication ... just a glimpse of ? the person might b able 2 do ... if a person says they r from tcma lineage then they should be certified by their sifu ... if not ... then the person is most likely a fraud ... the absence of a piece of paper says more than the presence of a piece of paper

[DavidLatin]

Sorry Kung Lek, I know the guy and I can say that without a shadow of a doubt, he learned EVERYTHING from videos. He has been training with videos since the 80's when Tat Mau released his first series of tapes with Panther video. So, this is where they get the 20+ years reference. Basically, they're lying. It barely adds up.

So you see the fact that many martial artists don't fight as a good thing??!! Oh God.....I give up :rolleyes: I'm not gonna argue.

[David Jamieson]

Well David, I didn't say that I think it's good that martial artists don't fight, I stated that many don't or haven't been in a real fight.

Personally, I think that someone who can fight but chooses not to and instead uses their head to remedy a possibly volatile situation is the winner in any fight.

In a ring sport it's a sportive event and there is the comfort barrier of knowing that nothing to serious is likely to happen to you.

In a professional venue, you may get pretty hurt, but you're willing to take that chance for the purse.

On the street it is a whole different story and anything goes. Your life is at risk in just about any altercation. So Train for that scenario.

To fight for the sake of fighting is not martial "arts" it is fighting for the sake of figting and that's all it is. Even the famous "rooftop" challenges in hong kong had a modicum of safety to them, meaning if someone was getting it to bad the fight would be stopped or because the combatants were Kung Fu people they would have a sense of mercy built into their training.

mercy, not submissiveness.

The Lei Tai matches of old were often bloody and brutal affairs, these of course were pushed underground long ago and likely only occur sporadically now and then, here and there.

Modern fighting in the ring is restrictive to many martial styles as they employ a large percantage of techniques that are difficult to do with gloved hands or are meant to be executed with open hands. Nothing to do with the "it's too deadly" line that one so often hears. More to do with the nature of the style vs.the rule of the ring.

Anyway, if you personally know him that's fine. But you can't discredit someone without facing them head on with full intent.
Otherwise it is no good etiquette :)

I do believe that a strong foundation built via direct transmission in any martial art must be built before attempting to learn from a source such as a book or a video tape. To find a master of the style later that can help you correct aspects would be a bonus. But fighting and martial arts are more about natual alignment and things your body is meant to do. You can discover these things with some help in many formats. It isn't "rocket science" but there is about your own physiology that needs to be known.

Martial arts contain no secrets, just information and practice.

peace

[Ginger Fist]

was bruce lee

--jun fan su(ked pig balls ... certified as*shole wannabe ... who certified him? Hollywood

yip man,clc.....were these poeple certifide?

--4 sure dude

if so who certifided them.surely not the cma assosiation?

--names found on sun toi ... certified by jo-si

[fiercest tiger]

i think certification is a must, maybe in the old days there wasnt certification and probably had just a many bad teachers around too.

at least be certified from either you grandmaster or sifu!

i certify my to-dai's for each level and they can hang it on there wall and be proud of there achievements.:)

[vingtsunstudent]

in the old days there definitely was certification but not what the ****ty stanards are today.
yes it is true you wouldn't go to a doctors today without a diploma on their wall but in the old days there diplma was the fact that they were in business & had regular customers.
if you were no good nobody would see you.
the same was with kung fu- you may not have had a piece of paper that said so but if you couldn't use it & show that you understood what you were doing to be able to teach then you had no students.
does anybody want to learn to swim off somebody that can't themselves.
vts

My thing is that if you can help somebody learn something that they didn't already know, you are MORE THAN QUALIFIED TO TEACH.

If I ever met a sifu who learned strictly from videos or books but who had great skills and could impart them to me, I'd study with him regardless of his lack of lineage.


My sifu doesn't have a plaque on his wall, a school, a rank, or even a picture of him with his sifu.

But when you TOUCH HANDS, you KNOW that this man is a master - better than anybody I've ever seen.

[DavidLatin]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
does anybody want to learn to swim off somebody that can't themselves.
vts

Finally! Someone that sees my logic ;)

[fiercest tiger]

hey sui fuw wassup? merry xmas, i see you cant stay away you really miss me dont you BABY!

ALL THE BEST FOR THE NEW YEAR! OH GWALO NEW YEAR AH!!:D

[fiercest tiger]

sui fuw i knew it, we have it all wrong:)

yeah chinese new year is in feb right? we are getting ready for MO SI and have about 10 shows in febuary. including dragon dancing!

we did a lion dance(mui fa jong) for the director of Moulan Rouge at his home last friday night. he had a huge party, chinese theme and YKM did a excellent show in front of about 200 guest.

his house was huge, and we were aloud to drink eat and hang around after wards so this gwalo drank out the bar ..hahahaha

nicole kidman was suppose to be coming but we left around midnight. **** nicole is always late, she was at home waiting for me!!:D

[Buby]

Don't worry bro! I've got ya.

I'll get ya certificates and your very own black belt with 15 stripes for a small one time fee of $19.95. U.S. dollars of course.;)

Buby

[fiercest tiger]

your kung fu is your families style right? who can tell you its wrong or right?

i never got a certificate from my sifu, just his word and ceramony witnessed yau kung mun association!! i asked my sifu and he said WHAT ISNT MY WORD GOOD ENOUGH!! i shut my mouth and slide underneath the table,,,hahaha

sui fuw gar hmmm i wanna see your style!! "we can take this boat" and fight on that island? ;)

[fiercest tiger]

i want to come and learn some sui fuw gar! for real!!

if u are a good teacher they will come anyways!

[Buby]

It was very difficult, until I met sifu. Like sifu pointed out, he doesn't have any certificates except for the one mentioned, but his knowledge and the way he moves speaks louder than any certificate.

Buby

[fiercest tiger]

Well do like half of America does make your own and buy 60 trophy's and place them around the walls!:D

did you read my skunk fist thread on the main forum? i heard you might be the beaver master?

:D