The best of the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[red5angel]

Ok, this thread I started in the WC forum about WC and ring fighting has really gotten to me. I went on a rant I meant to post on that forum but decided that this forum would be a better place for it. Normally these things dont get my goat but I am really tired of the laziness, the disrespect, and the wanna bes who are giving martial arts and the people who REALLY practice it a bad name. I know I dont have the stuff to go out and fight in UFC style fighting or in a back alley, my training has only just begun, but in the future, if I plan to shoot my mouth off I hope I have the guts to back it up in the real world and not this fantasy land internet world that some people enjoy talking big on.

Too many people now a days want that instant fix, want to become and expert and cover everything, so why not MMA? My opinion is that MMA is fo rpeople who a.) fight in MMA tourneys, or b.) do not have enough patience to learn one art thoroughly enough to cover all bases, or c.) are just to lazy to concentrate on one art for too long and are subject more to hype then to reality.
MMA is watering down some awesome systems because aperson has no faith in one. People like this dont trust themselves or thier arts and so they go elsewhere to hide thier insecurities.
As for fat guys and hippies training in MMA? Well, plenty, they seem pretty prevalent in all sorts of MAs not just WC.
Does this make me conservative for critiscising you or the others out there with your attitude towards MA in general? I dont think so, I view any complete system as capabale of handling any situation, it is the practitioner that often cannot. MMA is as useless to a person as any other art that does not take the time to learn, practice and understand what they are studying.
I am sick and tired of all the freakin wanna be experts who KNOW that some art is better or some art is not. They do not, and it is pure ignorance to make a statement like that. These arts are, and have been tested on the streets, many of them for centuries. Whats the difference now? Laziness, people want to tournemant fight instead of learn martial arts. Go ahead if that is what you want, but understand that you will be limited by your rules and so some things will not appear to work in the ring. TOO bad, if you dont like it, then get out, step out on to the street and street fight.
Its not the art its the person, if you have matched yourself up with an art that does not work, or you do not apply yourself, or you have hopes and goals of being the next Bruce Lee, well, then good luck, and hope you work through yourmany failurse to the enlightenment that sometimes its not the tool its the USER. I fyou get beat its because something in you failed. OR maybe the guy who beat you was BETTER than you, but who would want to admit that right?
I see all sorts of idiots on this board that want to slam other arts as weak or useless, taut thier own arts as perfect and the top of the heap, and in this tourney and that tourney or some so called fight in a local gym somewhere, between my cousins sisters aunts pet canary and his buddy, proves it, its crap. You want to prove that something doesnt work, PROVE IT, put your money where your mouth is and go out and fight. You think you have the stuff then get out and try it, dont go to tourneys, dont go to your local kwoon or dojo, go to an alley, invite someone of equal experience and skill in your art or another and fight it out, last man standing wins, you walk away from everyone of THOSE fights the winner then I will bow to your skill and ability. And dont give me this craop about bouncing for 10 years or whatever either, because 9 out of ten times your opponent is drunk and not of your skill level, I know, I do it.
You want to really fight then stop whining about your art or other arts and DO IT, fight, fight everyone and anyone you can, or maybe have some honor and some respect and fight only other martial artist who wish to fight you. There are plenty of young artist who say they would love to fight. Why is it not happening then? There are all kinds of stories about people meeting on rooftops and in backalleys in Hong Kong back in the day. They did it, they were willing to stand up and prove thier stuff, that they had or or to risk finding out they did not. Get out and fight, show it and stop talking like you have it.
I apologize to any of you who are beyond al this, this was not piointed at all of you just all the armchair warriors out there who talk so much about who can kisk whoes butt with what art and heres the proof. The only proof I will accept is the real thing, no pads, no judges, no rules, just fighting until someone cannot fight anymore, otherwise shut the **** up, because you are wasting our time!

[shaolinboxer]

Who is wasting who's time?

Thanks for encouraging us to go back to being lawless thugs.

[red5angel]

Here is the deal, there is a lot of big talking, and a lot of 'experts' on this forum that just seem to know what works, what doesn't, and what is the best and what isn't. Not all of us on this forum are like this but there are still quite a few.
Whats lawless about fighting amongst ourselves if we so choose? Its by choice, we choose to do it, and if neither guy presses charges not a whole lot can be done. I am not saying go out and fight anyone and everyone, but if you think you got the stuff, dont talk, fight. If its against the law, should it be?

[shaolinboxer]

Yes it is and yes it should be.

Winning a brawl proves nothing.

[red5angel]

Your right, but at the very least, these guys who are wandering around saying these things might learn this instead of moving to judge, systems, techniques, or even practitioners off the cuff.
IMO if two guys want to go at it then so be it, nothing wrong with it unless you subscribe to a moral belief, possibly in your religion, that fighting is wrong.

[Merryprankster]

Sigh.

Let me try this again.


You are working from a definition, which, in my mind, is not correct.

MMA is an EVENT, not a style. Mixed Martial Arts venues provide the opportunity for anybody, regardless of style, to step into the ring.

Crosstraining is a training philosophy. It is not a style. It's the idea that different arts have different specialties. In order to be well rounded, you need to be AWARE of the different modes of attack, and have a basic understanding of how to counter them, so that you can apply YOUR abilities.

Nobody on here who crosstrains recommends dabbling in this or that. We advocate something more along the lines of a stand-up striking style, a stand-up grappling style, and a groundfighting style. It is fully possible to become quite proficient in all of these styles over the course time, and certainly to become an "expert," in one. I am proficient in wrestling. I plan on achieving "expert" status in BJJ. I plan to become proficient in boxing/muay thai.

Most of us who cross train also advocate sportive type training, because we believe that this sort of training prepares your mind and body best for real altercations.

If you truly believe that crosstraining is the result of laziness, I would suggest that you have never trained for a full speed tournament where you have somewhere between 3 and 6 bouts, depending on division size.

[BeiKongHui]

If you are going to respond to me then do so in the appropriate thread. You seem to be inexperienced in both the world of MMA and Wing Chun so I would suggest that you are the one who needs to put his money where his mouth is as go to an MMA gym and see just how "lazy" they really are. Also, could you point out a NHB fighter that is in as bad a shape as your average WC guy? If you can find one he won't be around for long because he'll have to fight instead of just talking about eye gouges, etc.

[xiong]

I have to say that pretty much everything that red5angel said is in line with what I was thinking, but did not want to say and have to "mouth box" with the entire forum.

I think it is the fighter and how hard/realistically they train. I don't encourage fighting of any kind but I do think that people hide behind the the anonymity of the internet and the illegality of assault to defend themselves rather than putting their cards on the table.

I do not want to fight and this is not an invitation for one. I think people just come on here and talk smack knowing full well that it isn't going to be socially acceptable for the person to come back and beat them down.

As far as the UFC type stuff goes, I frankly find it boring. I find it akin to the Toughman Championships on FX. Little to no style, just brawling. I don't doubt that they could kick my ass, but it's just not Martial Arts.

[red5angel]

I didn't make my point clear on cross treaining I guess. If you want to cross train more power to you. If you feel it gives you something else, so be it. I fyou feel you need to do it to make your sport fighting more effective, probably, because almost all sport fighters cross train. But if you think you are covering the weaknesses of a given style, you are probably not looking at the style hard enough. If you think you are and you do not see the answers it holds, then you are not at a sufficeint level to make that determination.
As for MMA as a style, this thread was started because I am seeing people trying to convince people it is a style, and that it is the best way to go. I know there are MMA events, but there are also people who teach MMA as a 'style of sorts.
As far as becoming an expert in soemthing, I guess that depends on your definition of an expert, mine is not someone who has trained a few years in one art and then moved on because now he 'gets' it, or has successfully adapted one or two things into his own style. Would you learn from someone who is a socalled expert after 2 years? They can teach you all the forms, amybe even talk to you intelligently about what each technique is supposed to do but are they an expert, hardly.
If you want to train against people who practice different styles to become aware of different attack and defense mechanism, then go fo rit, this is the best way, now you get to put your art against something else, learn about it as well, and hone your art even more.
If after 15 years of studying one art, you still feel you need to study something else to round out your form, well, go for it as well, but maybe you just haven't studied your style hard enough? OIrmayeb if something concerns you so much, and your art doesnt have it, you should have studied something else in the first place?
I am not saying cross training to some extant is a bad idea, who knows, but at the level and amounbt that it is going on right now, its ridiculous. You cant hardly find a school that doesnt teach multiple styles anymore, mainly because most of these guys haven't taken the time to study anything really in depth. They study for 6-10 years and then move on, study something else for a few years and then move on.
You are right, I have not trained for a ful speed tourney, if you are, and you need to gain endurance add some running to your training, add some weightlifting, what have you, training in another style doesnt have to be the only way you get endurance.
Imagine if you took your one art, say if you enjoyed White CRane for instance, and everyday, you practiced White CRane and White Crane alone, not worrying about growing bored, and at the point you start to get bored with your training regimen, you alter it, to train in a different way, your white crane. Then you start sparring with others in other styles, for fun and training, but you always use white crane, you adapt what you have already learned to fighting these other styles, taking your white crane and honig it down, sharpening its edges. Soon, you are finding the secrets that almost every art has locked into it, those little things you cant teach but you have to learn as you practice, those little epiphanies that come along over years of familiarity with your style. Eventually, you will come to know your style like an old friend, like a husband or wife, inside and out like you dont know the friends you have made recently, or over the last couple of years. Like a family member you have grown up with. You know it well, and you can do it well. Now when challenges coem along, your white crane dominates, but everyonce in while, someone tougher comes along, or faster, and you get beat, you learn from it, you adjust your style, and you grow. soon you have mastered what you know!
now imagine you practice for 8 years, your white crane, then you move on to Mantis, then some grappling, everday you are rotating your training, every fight you are trying to work out three different systems and how best to use each techniques from each style in each situation........

[red5angel]

BeiKongHui, you found it, it is in the most apropriate thread I could find, in the most apropriate forum for the discussion. There is no problem there.I am not about to get into a discusion with you on who is in better shape or blah blah blah, and blah blah blah. My point is that those discusions are crap, because you cant prove it. As far as MMA gymns go, I have been and it was lazy, and MMA as a style is not. Its a mix of styles for people who do not have the concentration to focus on one. A bunch of wanna be bruce lees that have no direction.
Does this offend you, good, then maybe you will get my point....
As far as finding someone in better shape, I run several miles in the morning, and paractice my martial arts with a regime of excesising each day, I haven't come across someone as in shape as me in a long time, and still everyone in my kwoon could kick my ass, why? because they have more skill. So I have put my money where my mouth is, instead of shooting it off in an unproveable manner, in some ridiculous idea that some art is much better then others, and that it is the style that makes the man.
I am sick of the smack talk on this board, coming from people like you, who havent taken the time to open thier eyes and look at the reality of it, and not thier own ideas in thier own little world, you see a video once on a guy who got his butt kicked so his style must suck, dont be so naive. You see how hard the guys at your dojo train and so everyone else must not be as good,naive. All the big 'reality fighting' tourneys, all the grapplers win so grappling must rule, naive. All arts have thier weaknesses and you must cross train to get better and stronger, naive.

[red5angel]

Well, 16 years, wow, I prostrate myself before you..... I woul dhave thought that in 16 years of training, you would have thought hard about the things you are learning in WC, but then again it sound slike you have done a lot of cross training and that tends to get distracting.
As far as one day I will learn, your right, but I have taken it beyond your method, I am learning everyday. For instance, today I have learned not to use my experience as a crutch and to learn from it instead.

[Merryprankster]

I guess I am not making myself clear.

How much groundfighting does oh, say wing chun address?

How much in the world of takedowns?

Don't give me the "we have grappling and groundfighting."

If Wing Chun has grappling in it, then BJJ has striking.

I am perfectly capable of making an assessment of my style after wrestling for 5 years and spending 20 months in BJJ. Do I know everything there is to know about BJJ? Nope. But I know enough BJJ to know that we don't often train with somebody trying to punch our lights out. This is a weakness that must be shored up. I also know that BJJ has poor takedowns and poor takedown strategies. Thankfully, I wrestled, and this is not a problem area for me. You shore up by crosstraining in a striking style to UNDERSTAND what it is to hit and be hit, and also to become marginally proficient. You then return to your core abilities.

As to the laziness issue, you missed my point entirely. Whether or not you believe the efforts are misdirected, most crosstrainers bust their asses, from a physical perspective. I don't know how you can define that as laziness.

As far as becoming an expert in something, I don't know where the hell you got two years from. A nice arbitrary number. Expertise is skill based, not time based. I agree that a certain amount of time must be put in to attain mastery, but it is different for different people.

My instructor has won the Sambo National Championships twice, is the reigning Judo Master's National Champion, and has placed 3rd in the world in his weight class, 2nd in the world in his weight class and age bracket, and 3rd in the world in the Open weight category at the Worlds in Brazilian Jiujitsu.

Just so you understand, there is only ONE BJJ World Championship tournament, held in Brazil around late July, only ONE Sambo National Championship, in the US and only ONE Judo National Tournament in the US. I don't want you thinking I'm talking about one of those "alphabet soup organization" titles.

So is this guy an expert? Seems to me he is. He is also a crosstrainer who is proficient in boxing and muay thai.

Crosstraining in different styles gives you and idea of what might be coming next, and idea of what to expect from different types of fighters. It gives you insight in what THEY do so that you can apply what YOU are best at.

IF a BJJer takes you down and YOU don't know any groundfighting, you are about to have a very bad day.

IF a wrestler shoots in and YOU don't train takedown defenses, live, with people who KNOW how to take you down, then you are about to have a very bad day.

IF a good striker starts unloading on you, and YOU don't train to defend and handle strikes, you are about to have a very bad day.

That's what crosstraining is about. Not about style jumping every six months.

[apoweyn]

i don't know. there are some good points in this thread. but i always find it a bit ironic when someone of two years' experience comes on here and tells people with 10, 15, 18 years of experience that they don't understand.

red angel says:

If after 15 years of studying one art, you still feel you need to study something else to round out your form, well, go for it as well, but maybe you just haven't studied your style hard enough? OIrmayeb if something concerns you so much, and your art doesnt have it, you should have studied something else in the first place?


i say:

first of all, saying that we should have studied something different in the first place is about the least helpful thing i've ever heard. even if i could send a cyborg back through time to find my mother before she was my mother, convince her not to let her unborn son join a commercial school, and thereby save the future, i don't think i would. the journey, with all it's stumbles, sidetracks, and complete fiascos, is what makes us what we are today.

second, a lot of this argument seems to hinge on the notion that if you'd just stayed with one style for long enough, all the answers would have come to you. and maybe that's so. but what if that didn't happen? what if you opted to remain in one style for 16 years. and then, it didn't work. it didn't have all the answers. (for whatever reason, be it your conditioning, your psychological makeup, whatever; the style didn't work for you when it counted.)

how would you then get THAT time back?

i don't believe there's a right answer. i believe there's a choice. nothing more mystic than that. you make a choice. then you make it the right one. the boddhisattiva guan yin is never going to come and visit you to say, "you chose wisely." god almighty is never going to appear in your dreams and give you the thumbs up for combining wrestling and kickboxing. and the lord buddha is never going to give you a watch for hanging in there for the same style for 20+ years.

i find the lack of faith in other people's abilities to make choices odd. especially when it involves someone of two years' experience questioning the choices and understanding of people with minimally three times' that much experience. (six years isn't long enough to make an informed judgment? how do you know?)


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

Good on you for reminding me that what I have to say is strictly my opinion and certainly not fact.

Our boy here is perfectly entitled to his beliefs. I just wanted to point out the crosstraining concept and that we aren't "lazy," :)

[red5angel]

You nad I may just be having a problem understanding each other, a miscommunication so to speak.
Cross training, and the laziness in it. I didnt mean to imply that crosstraining was not hard work, you are correct, cross trainners tend to train pretty hard physically. What I am saying is that it is a laziness in not satudying what you are learning in the first place. For instance, instead of say, finding that BJJ has a weakness in takedowns and looking somewhere else for the answer, wrestling has good takedowns so the answer must be there, and start training in wrestling, instead, maybe look deeper for the answer in BJJ. You might have to adopt some technique from another style, I am not saying this is possible, all styles evolve. (I am alos not sure how old BJJ is, has it been around for a while?) But many styles have been pretty thoroughly tested. Any style that has some time behind it, some age to it, probably has a lot of things most people do not see.
For instance, I asked one person at one time about groundfighting in WC. The answer I got was "I myself have never done any groundfighting in WC, but if it happens, or if you choose to trian in it, take what you have learned in WC so far and adopt it to that style." WC doesnt have a lot of wrap ups and locks. But that may be the point, you dont get into WC to do that. WC has a lot of strikes and punches, and there in may lie the answer, instead of meeting a grappler on his turf, I use my WC to adapt to his style of fighting. I dont se ethe lack of grappling techniques as a weakness, we just dont grapple. But I have discussed it with a wrestler of some experience, he is in college, captain of the team, been doing it for a long time, etc.. and when I get to the point where I am ready, him and I will get together to start working on WC vs Wrestling. This sort of crosstraining is essential as far as I am concerned for anyone who feels they are going to fight regularly, whether on the street or in the ring.
As for time, well, some people have the credentials to show they are an expert, your instructor for example, and if asked about how to handle other styles, he probably has some pretty good answers. My original rant was about people who do not but feel they have the answers anyway, without acknowledging that sometimes it is the people, sometimes it is the environment.
.

[red5angel]

First ofall, I must apologize if I hadnt made it clear that this is all my opinion and not what I necessarily believe to be fact, as all things have exceptions. I am often guilty of assuming that people know I am espousing my opinions, not as fact but as opinion.
Apoweyn, you have some very good points, you cannot go back in time to make things better, not possible, and someitmes you realise you have made a mistake or just should be doing something else, or just want to do something else. There may not be a right answer, and at the time I posted the original post, I was ina heated attitude and did not explain thoroughly my belief on this. I will try now...
Its not necessarily that cross training is detrimental, and that you cannot get something out of it, but I do believe that cross-training has run rampant, especially in america and especially because of sport fighting. Now we all get into MA for our own reason, for me, I admire its beauty, I want to be able to defend myself in a fight, and I am in love with learning about my art and myself through it. Some join because they jst genuinely want to get out and compete, and no way is better then the other. In sport fighting, because there are rules, people have had to adapt, and as our cultures have become more pc, if that is the right word, then our rules have gotten more strict in some ways, People who do this for a living have had to learn to adapt. Cross training has been the answer to this apparently. Unfortunately it has run rampant in the MA world in general, and no it would seem a lot of people are having a hard time sticking to anything long enough to get some real experience. they learn the system and then move on. This to me is not healthy, but for most of these people, we come from the MTV generation and our attention spans tend to be shorter.
As for experience, I have to say sahme oin you for making it look like it is the end all to be all. I sit here 28 years of age having been through college, the Marine corp, no less then 10 different countries for extended periods of time, volunteered for several civilian aid programs in other countries, been to Antarctica, and am married. Next to me sits a guy who is 36, left minnesota a few times, and lives in the same house he grew up in. Age, and sometimes experience, does not make one wise or an expert. I am not saying I am all that knowledgeable, but in college I practically taught my astronomy class because my instructor didn't seem to know half the stuff I did. This has taught me that these things sometimes do not count for much and I am not quick to assume that because you have had experience in something, makes you more knowledgeable. I am also not quick to asume because you do not have a long history in something, you do not know wat you are talking about either.

[rubthebuddha]

then why are you hiding that bag of doritos and lethal weapon box set behind your back, huh, merry prankster?

lazy indeed. :)

personally, i dislike the idea of finding someone, meeting out back or on a rooftop and clocking each other until dinnertime. i don't think that's what martial arts are about. there are other avenues for testing your skill, and simply bashing it out with people, week-in, week-out, is going to leave you looking uglier than a cat's ass. what's the point in being able to protect your family if they run away because they shudder every time they look at your pulped-up face?

then again, maybe be butt ugly is good self defense. no one wants to fight with the baby ruth guy from goonies, so who knows.

[Merryprankster]

I suggest you do exactly as you thought, and get with the wrestler sometime.

Let me tell you this: Takedowns and the groundgame will render almost all of your stand-up techniques largely useless. Proper power generation will be next to impossible, it's an unfamiliar environment and the way of moving is COMPLETELY different. It's simply not the same.

The WC guy who told you "just do the same thing on the ground," is flat out wrong, and I don't mind saying so.

It's not the same, its a different environment with different dangers and different requirements for success.

[SevenStar]

"I use my WC to adapt to his style of fighting. I dont see the lack of grappling techniques as a weakness, we just dont grapple. But I have
discussed it with a wrestler of some experience, he is in college, captain of the team, been doing it for a long time, etc.. and when I get to the point where I am ready, him and I will get together to start working on WC vs Wrestling."

You just don't grapple? Then how are you adapting to his style of fighting? Myabe I misunderstood you here. And once you do spar with him and he takes you down, you'll see the lack of grappling as a weakness. Therein lies the beauty of crosstraining - you can utilize techs and concepts from other styles in order to make your own stronger. That is one thing that MMA has pointed out as a necessity in being a complete fighter - putting and end to those who do nothing more than say "If a grappler comes at me, I'll simply do (insert technique here) and finish him off" When you actually try it in real time, you see it's not that simple. a grappler may say "if a CMA does (insert technique here) I'll grab his limb and take him down" when you step up and try it, the game changes.

[Merryprankster]

I would like to augment what I said.

You don't have to become a wrestler, but you DO have to know how to escape, stand up, and defend the takedown. Those three skills. Learn THAT, and you can WC your way to victory.

[red5angel]

Well, part of fighting everyone is experience, if a grappler doesnt know any better and he i snot cautious when he comes at someone who does not grapple, he could find himself in trouble. If the guy who does not grapple is not cautious and finds himself on the ground, then he could be in trouble as well.
As for grappling and nullifying power, well, WC I know teaches power in structure, not always related to stance. I am not saying this cant be nullified but by studying how it is nullified, you may be able to stop it, and so on and so on.
I definitley do not believe in the "if such and such happens then I will.." approach, because these situations are highly organic, but anything and everything can learn to be countered and not necessarily out of the context of your art. As I also stated before some things can and may need to be adapted to your art, all arts are constantly growing and changing. For instance, wrestling and BJJ probably have a lot of things that can be intermixed very well, but, I dont believe that a BJJ practitioner necessarily needs to go to Kickboxing or boxing to learn to fight a fighter. They need to take what they know to learn how to defend themselves and get into grapple.
Another good example would be Kung Fu, and Chin Na, Chin Na isn't necessarily a style in and of itself, but a system of techniques, and adapting some of its applications to say Wing Chun, in the context of Wing Chun, can help to fight a grappler.

[red5angel]

On this I agree, I guess I just dont believe that I have to LEARN the other art so much as how the other art works. For example, taking my wrestling freind and getting him to spar with me, I can learn to adapt my WC applications to fend him off, stop him from getting a hold of me, or making him let go of me when we are on the ground.
I dont feel that I do have to train with him, have him teach me his techniques and actual learn wrestling. Does that make sense?

"I would like to augment what I said.

You don't have to become a wrestler, but you DO have to know how to escape, stand up, and defend the takedown. Those three skills. Learn THAT, and you can WC your way to victory."

[Merryprankster]

You're not going to be able to out grapple a grappler with Chin Na.

As for not studying other styles in order to defeat them, unfortunately, that's not true according to the evolution of ringfighting. Royce Gracie is a prime example. He had ONLY BJJ, and started losing to crosstrainers.

You are welcome to believe what you wish, but I think you'll find you need to learn some other stuff to round you out.

[apoweyn]

red angel,

first of all, thanks. i appreciate your responding. i thought that your opinion that time was much better stated. i still don't agree with it wholeheartedly, but i thought it was more reasonably put.

that said, 'shame on me' for what? i'm not suggesting that you can't have insights with 2 years of experience. i'm suggesting that your insights are not enough to completely invalidate those of people with more training than you. a man studies a style for 6 years and then makes a decision based on that experience. that's three times your experience. but you feel comfortable asserting that they're just suffering from attention deficit?

you're married. so you have some experience. excellent. i would never question that decision. i would never seriously suggest that, perhaps if you'd stuck with single life for longer, you'd have seen that it really was the better way to go. that's absurd. you made a choice to be with someone based on your experience with them. (i'm guessing that it didn't take you 6 years to make that judgment either.)

you practically taught your astronomy class. that's cool too. but do you, after a semester, feel comfortable second guessing the research avenues or published materials of your professor? or any other astronomer of 6 years?

it does come down to more than a number of years. you're right. but citing off all the ways in which you're experienced (marines, marriage, etc.) doesn't take into account that everyone else here has the same thing. we all have experiences to draw from. you're 28. i'm 30. you're married. i'm single (so far). you've been abroad. i was born abroad. that isn't an advantage you have over the rest of us in terms of judgment. we all make decisions based on what we know. and we aren't fools. if we crosstrain, we do so based on as much wit, wisdom, and will as you do.

trust in that a little.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

Stop making sense please. My head hurts :)

[apoweyn]

mine too, brutha. mine too.

here's a joke for you:

why did the apoweyn cross from alexandria to laurel for a doctor's appointment, then get stuck in traffic on 495 at 10 o'clock in the morning, finally getting into work in rockville at midday?

answer: because he's a horrible, horrible monster and god hates him.



stuart b.

[red5angel]

Your welcome for the better explanation, I realised that at the time I was just hot and bothered and did not explain myself very well. Thank you for your lucid way of looking at what I am trying to say and not getting inflammatory.
As for agreeing, I may not ever agree with it, but in time, who knows :) (Thats my way of saying that experience does generally count for something, but not always. My examples were not really related to this subject so much as just an example in general. We all have different experiences, but sometimes age, and even experience in a certain subject may not be the best comparison. Of course I am still young, that opinion may change!)

Merryprankster, I have to say I appreciate the way you have discussed this with me, although at some point we may end up debating that whole Chin Na thing! :)

Really, for anyone who gets this far in this string, I want to apologize to anyone I may have insulted. If you are genuinely insulted then you are probably not the type of person my ire was directed at. I guess that with the good you take the bad, and on this forum there are plenty of good guys who know what they are doing, and there are plenty of bad guys who just walk around and will never get thier heads out of thier asses.

I woul also like to state that although I dont approve of fighting in general, I do not mind a 'freindly match' with a fellow MA brother who is also willing. PAds, no pads, full contact or no, not because I want to get beat or to beat, but for real life experience.

[apoweyn]

red angel,

no worries. arguments get the better of us all sometimes. god knows they do me on occassion.

happy holidays mate.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

What exactly is a lexicologist?!

[Chris McKinley]

I would probably chalk up a lot of what redangel is saying to a combination of potentially valid points and a lack of perspective based on inexperience. What that means for us is that we have to sort through what he's saying, all the vague blanket statements and just plain rants, to find what may be a point worth considering. Now I'll admit that when I see a claim of only 2 years experience, it usually makes me too lazy to do all that sorting since the valid points are usually things I've heard before a million times or conclusions I came to myself years ago.

I am a crosstrainer with 27 years of experience in the martial arts. Early on, I was a dabbler, not by design, but by necessity due to the fact that I didn't know much about the world of martial arts and was still searching for what I wanted/needed. On the one hand, I certainly learned that an inexperienced kid can't legitimately evaluate a given art in its entirety and that an art can often have information that is only yielded up through time, experience and perspective.

On the other hand, I also learned that, despite the hype and politically correct viewpoint, that a given art really CAN have weaknesses and that it DOESN'T always mean one simply hasn't spent enough time in the art or delved into it deeply enough. Martial arts are human constructs and are therefore open to imperfection. The fact that some spiritually-deep total bad-ass found a method of fighting that worked for him, organized it, and taught it to others doesn't mean that method is completely perfect nor that it is optimal for handling any and all possible fighting situations for all people...no matter how long ago it was invented or how many generations of people have practiced it since. Just like other phenomena in natural selection, just because a system has become stable over time doesn't mean it is optimally adapted to all environments/circumstances everywhere. It simply means that it is reasonably suited to the environment/circumstances in which it is practiced.

For illustration and to hopefully provide some balanced perspective, I'll give a couple of examples. Western pugilism, for instance, has been practiced for many hundreds of years in a roughly stable configuration. That is, it didn't change much over time. Its advocates might claim that means it has proven that it works. Fair enough. However, put a champion pugilist against a modern Western boxer and he'll be destroyed rather quickly, all else being equal. Or, put him on the ground with a champion wrestler, Shuai Jiao practitioner, or BJJ man and he'll be similarly squashed. For that matter, if he can't close distance against a skilled TKD or Muay Thai man, he'll again be demolished.

For another example, I'll put up Taijiquan. Modern Westerners especially don't seem willing to put in the time to really understand and be able to correctly use this art or any of the other internal arts on average. As a result, they look at their 1 or 2 years spent doing it and conclude that it doesn't work in a real fight and move on to something with a much shorter learning curve. This is too bad, since skilled Taiji guys can sometimes make someone with years of more common martial arts skill look like raw beginners. Now so far, this example would seem to support the point that redangel is trying to make, and it does to a certain extent. However, you'll find Taiji guys who will claim that it has everything and that if it appears to have a weakness, you simply haven't explored it enough. Sorry guys, but Taiji simply doesn't have groundfighting skills, plain and simple. As much as they'd like to whine otherwise, any of these skilled Taiji guys, recognized masters included, would find themselves completely embarrassed if they ended up groundfighting with a skilled modern BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, or Judo practitioner.

To carry the illustration further, any of the aforementioned grappling specialists would find their skills nearly irrelevant if they found themselves facing a skilled Kali or Silat man armed with a blade. The whole thing begins to resemble the old Chinese analogy of rock/paper/scissors. It's a matter of having the right tool for the job. The best hammer, no matter how refined and proven it has become through centuries of field-tested use by highly skilled carpenters, still makes a lousy screwdriver.

[apoweyn]

red angel,

i'm a writer, editor, and smartarse. hence lexicology engineer. lexicology concerns the application of language.

:)


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Thanks for your input, although I dont know why everyone has to pick on the new guy! just kidding.....

Your points are valid, as are most of the points that have been brought up so far in this discussion. I am still struggling with new feelings and experiences and learning to articulate them.
In these discussions, they seem mostly domintaed by people unlike yourself, Apoweyn, or Merryprankster, in that its always about this is better that is better, I know because I saw this film or that book, or what have you.
I guess my point is really hard to make. I understand what you are saying on cross training, but I firmly believe that in almost any art, you can find the answers you need for most situations, and I also firmly believe that you can never have all the answers. What I mean is, I practice WC, and in doing, as I move along in my practice, I might be able to find the answers to most problems I encounter, for instance, I amy be able to find an effective way to deflect tackles and execution moves for getting me to the ground, by using WC principals of structure, centerline control, etc.... I am not saying this will work all the time.

I think part of my issue is perspective. Some guys do this for sport, some do it for health, some do it to be a bad ass. We all have different reasons. For me, from the perspective of effectiveness it only has to be effective on the street, if I were to have to defend myself or anyone else. I am a pretty strong guy, not realy small and I weight lift regularly, so grappling doesnt worry me too much because most people I may encounter probably dont have a lot of experience in it. So my concern is mainly to defend against your everyday attacker on the street. If I were in doing tourneys, especially MMA tourneys or what have you, then grappling is a genuine concern.
now this issue also extends into the arguments of what is better and what isn't. The perspective is sometimes wrong. I have always said that in tournemants, I dont believe WC is all that effective, because some of its vital tools are restricted by rules and the need to not maim or kill your opponent! On the street, even with a grappler, I have a much better chance because I may be able to deliver a dabilitating blow before or during the battle. that comes down to experience and toughness and some other factors.

[BeiKongHui]

"just do the same thing on the ground,"

This is exactly what I was talking about in the WC forum thread. I don't know if it's ignorence or arrogance but statements like that get made by WC people everyday. You try that with someone with a minimum of groundfighting experience and your butt is toast. It comes down to experience if you had tested your WC in situations other than drills in the kwoon you'd know that. The reality of the situation is that most people with 3 or 4 years of WC experience can handle themselves in a street fight which is great but if you want to move up to the next level in your training you have to look elsewhere as most WC schools just don't believe in hardcore training.

[Knifefighter]

Red:
Greg Nelson runs the Minnesota Mixed Martial Arts Academy. If you get a chance, stop by his school and work out with some of his guys. I think you will come away with a new appreciation of mixed martial arts.

[Merryprankster]

red angel;

I offer only this for thought:

Do you want to be good enough to handle "average joe," or do you want to be good enough to handle a trained fighter?

That's the dilemma of martial arts, in general. So many arts have the counters for the "giant drunken roundhouse swing," but neglect the boxer's hook because "they won't see that in a real fight." Or (my favorite) the counter for the "big guy rush and tackle," but neglect the wrestler's controlled, well balanced shot/clinch.

The answer, of course, is to learn to handle the hook and the shot, because if you can handle THOSE, then the roundhouse and tackle are cake by comparison. Yet, this is not done.

The corollary (sp) to that is obviously to test your skills against those that are trained, and perhaps pick up some tips if your style or sifu can't seem to find the answer.

That's cross training, in a nutshell.

Good luck!

[red5angel]

Knifefighter: thanks for the tip, I will have to go check it out, I have stopped by two other schools that are supposed to be MMA and they were pretty much crap, more teaching issues than anything else.

Merryprankster: For myself, I wish to study my art deeply, to learn all of its nuances and to adapt it to myself and my 'way'. I still believe that all the answers I need lie within my art but your advice is very sound and worthy of following. I do believe in croos training as it pertains to sparring against other styles to improve my own, and possibly in the future I may find something to adapt to my WC. I really do appreciate the debate though, I have learned somethings.

[Xebsball]

In my opinion crosstraining is cool, but you got to have a base style before that. I mean, thats the way most top MMA guys are anyway, arent they?

You have a primary style and another one or two secondary styles that fill in for the stuff your primary style lacks.

Sakuraba can strike but his main thing is being smart on the ground.
Silva can grapple but his main thing is beating the crap out of people.
Renzo Gracie is doing some striking, but he definately wants to take it to the ground.
And so on.

[Merryprankster]

Absolutely agree Xebs.

I think that over time though, what you are going to find is MMA fighters that can "do it all," reasonably well, and have a particular specialty. I mean, Igor really doesn' have a ground game, but right now, he doesn't have to. In 50 years, I believe that situation will have changed.

[Watchman]

red5angel:

Here's the website to the school that Knifefighter mentioned.

http://www.mmaacombatzone.com/

[red5angel]

You guys from around minnesota? thanks watchman for the link, I am checking it out now.

[Watchman]

No, I'm in Utah and Knifefighter is in SoCal.

I've heard a lot of good things about Greg Nelson and his school, and had a chance to ask him a couple of questions over at the Underground. He's a nice guy, and from what I can tell, and excellent trainer.