Lan Sao

[fa_jing]

What are the uses of the lan sao (bar arm). It is trained heavily in Chum Kiu. To me, it could be an inside lop sao, or an elbow with the stance turn. I have also heard that it is good for closing the distance. How so? In applying, do you simply lay the bar arm on your opponents arm, then punch over it like in Chum Kiu??
Thanks in advance for your replies.

-FJ

[KenWingJitsu]

"do you simply lay the bar arm on your opponents arm, then punch over it like in Chum Kiu??" Yep.

But you wanna know where it works best in the "real world"? The clinch. Those of you with sparring experience know that when chain punching etc, your opponent will either back up or rush forward & clinch you. When he does, slide the lan -sau through under his neck & watch as the clinch is broken. You then punch over your arm & continue hitting.

[fa_jing]

Okay, give me an example of laying the arm. Maybe after a fook of a low gate incoming punch? Just guessing. Also, how about the part of Chum Kiu where you kick under the Lan Sao. Does anybody know an application for this?
KenWingJitsu - about the escape from the clinch- interesting, I'll have to try that.
-FJ

[yuanfen]

Lan sao like many things in wing chun has many many applications. While it is combined with different things in chum kiu, its foundations are in slt.
One simple example among many possibilities. If you have bridge contact with an incoming punch from the outside, you can lop and with the other hand lan sao the elbow joint of you opponent and control him and when done right break his elbow as part pf a combination. Of course this assumes knowledge of wing chun structure and timing and chum kiu body usage..

[sanchezero]

...I've noticed some families play alot of BG-style elbows off their bong sao, either as a trap or into a backfist.

The lan sao is perfect for that. Just cram your lan into their armpit and lift them (stepping forward) or get behind them (shifting).

I once played chi sao with a guy who didn't seem to know any other techniques than this elbow. He got frustrated really quickly.:)

[fa_jing]

Defense against downward elbow--very good, thanks for the info. Does anyone know the name of the technique that blocks a horizontal elbow - I'm talking about -it's like a lan sao rotated 90 degrees so that your arm is vertical. I use this one to escape from the clinch, too.
-FJ

[rubthebuddha]

i always considered that a high gan sau and applied it as such. most people i practice with that try to do such an elbow don't try it any more, because it seems to hurt even more than a gan sau cutting a low punch.

[Tomhands]

for example, if you find (or put) your left arm outside an attacker's left arm when the alignment is oblique (i.e., you're not going to trap or cut under/over for a direct attack; maybe you're moving diagonally in a zig zag, so you're not squared to the opponent) the lan sau, which can be grabbing or not, twists the attacker's torso, stretches out his left side ribs and shoulder, pulls his head and shoulders off spinal alignment---presenting to you an exposed and stretched ribcage/kidney.
Since you're already at an angle, your right side is too far away to attack immediately, and is also weighted--the way is clear for a left side kick that will break ribs, knock out the wind, and possibly do internal damage if the kick has the right springy snappiness to penetrate the force through the lat muscles and ribs.

train this one carefully.

[fa_jing]

Excellent reply! You've given me something to think about while I practice that section of the form. Very hidden, but clearly there in hindsight. I can see how it's different from a lop sao due to the direction of the force and the trajectory of the movement. In the example you gave, would you grab near the wrist, or higher up on the forearm? For some reason I am visualizing the grab as higher on the forearm near the elbow. Also, given the outward twisting (for you) I am thinking that a front kick would be more natural than the side kick.

-FJ

[Shadowboxer]

Lan sao will counter bok-jarn. You can also use lan sao in the clinch drill as your opponent tries to load you on their back or hip(judo/aikido style for example). Lan sao into the back and fung gerk to the back of the knee.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sanchezero
The lan sao is perfect for that. Just cram your lan into their armpit and lift them (stepping forward) or get behind them (shifting).
This is an important point that Sanchezero is making. You can rock your opponents balance with the lan sao, keeping in mind that you are moving them with your horse, not trying to shove them with your arm or shoulder. A short-step in will rock them, and give you control. Man I love this move. :)

Matrix

[fa_jing]

What is Bok Jarn? Is that a shoulder?

-FJ

[Tomhands]

Thanks.

As a grab, yes, higher up on the forearm near the elbow--it makes it a bit easier to connect with the opponent's spine as you make them vulnerable to the kick; also, you wouldn't want to invite a counter-grab so easily. But not so high up that you are too close for a kick. (Not that that's bad, but it's a different idea.)

As for front vs. side-kick in my example, I was thinking of an oblique angle situation--i.e., the lan may happen as you are closing with a zig-zag step. Here, your hips are not square to the opponent. One option, as you said, would be to keep the stepping right foot as your root and square your hips to the opponent--the moving left leg could flow into a front kick.

To do this, though, you would have to pull back the left hip first to have a solid root for your kick as you realign to your opponent(remember, your hips weren't squared to the opponent because you were moving at an oblique angle). Your left hip is closest to the opponent, and your right side is already receiving the weight of your step--do you really want to waste time and confuse directness by moving the left hip backwards, before kicking with the left leg? Would you ever punch someone with your left hand while pivoting your left shoulder away from them?

If you stick with the chum-kiu lan&sidekick idea here, you can achieve the defense/opening/stretching/imbalancing of the opponent with your lan sao and immediately issue a solid side-kick--the stepping right foot becomes your root, and with your stable side-aligned structure (not teetering or leaning--which our chum-kiu practice teaches us to avoid) you are already ready to execute a safely balanced and powerful kick to the side/ribs of the opponent.

Hope that makes sense. Like all things "it's possible"--just one useful application of chum-kiu flow.

[Shadowboxer]

Yes, bok-jarn is a shoulder strike.

[fa_jing]

Tomhands, I'm trying to visualize this. You are in an embracing or zig-zag step, with the right foot forward and you left arm out against the outside of you opponent's left arm, who is in a regular forward stance. Your left hip is closer to the opponent You turn your lead left arm into a lan sao and shift you stance to provide the torque. How are your shifting? Do your heels stay in place, or are you stepping again? You then kick with the right leg as a sidekick, right? This makes sense, I think. But then your lan arm is with the left and the kick is with the right foot? If so, this is not like in the form. Please clarify 'cause I don't understand which side you are using in the example.
Thanks
-FJ

[Tomhands]

Sorry to make it so complicated.

First, please note that this may not be the most direct way to respond to the kind of attack I'm talking about.

Maybe the confusion comes from calling it "zig-zag"--I think we're talking about the same footwork--which usually implies two steps (the first, oblique step, then the following closing step). I meant the first part, an oblique step with the right leg, but instead of closing with a left step, the left leg moves into the side-kick under the left grabbing lan sao.

Right leg is stepping, and body is moving, at an oblique angle to opponent. Weight comes down on right.
Opponent is "to your left" since your movement was right diagonal.

The right leg is now planted, but your hips aren't facing the opponent. If your center is 12 o'clock, the opponent might be between 9 and 10. The side kick is with the left leg, kicking under the left lan sao--just like in the form.

Maybe the initial picture was confusing: opponent strikes with the left, you contact the outside of opponent's left (perhaps with right pak, but other things are possible), engage the left lan sao/grab, then side kick.

[fa_jing]

OK, thanks, I think I got it now.
-FJ