iron palm training from sand to steel

[wisdom mind]

when a stylist goes from sand to steel, does he/she continue usage of the sand bag for training or is it abandoned alltogether for steel or can they both be used?

dont worry about the dangers of practice and what not please just answer the question as is!

[EARTH DRAGON]

It really depends on what your teacher says, some keep striking the bag for years even though they have surpassed that level . It like saying now that I know applications should I stop doing the basics? I would have to say no.
PS I think you mean iron! not steel, iron has element properties that cannot be found in steel. And you should seek out although very rare are iron pellets. I was lucky enough to have been given 20lbs from my iron palm teacher. they are extremly hard to find. but a must to strike in a coldren. A bit messy with jow but it forms a paste that you let soak into the skin to condition the bone. If you strike steel you are missing out on the compostie element make- up of iron which the body needs.

[Water Dragon]

Now THAT'S some wild $hit. Are you at liberty you explain on the board or by private message?

[Buby]

I've also heard the same thing about iron. I've been told that some people actually throw iron nails into their jow. After a period of time the nail starts to decompose and the iron properities are let out into the jow. The iron nails were used to replace the more expensive type ingredients found in the jow.

Wisdom - Are you iron palm training? If so, please be sure to get the necessary info from your sifu. I'm not sure what type of iron palm you are planning on training, but the shhh can get pretty deep.

YKM has three levels of iron palm - external iron palm, vibrating palm, and cotton palm. Each level has sub levels within it, that go along with meditations and what not. Also we use a different type of jow and even take internal medicine for the higher levels. Anyway I'll holla at you tonight, we have a lot to talk about.

Catch you later on the messenger!

:)

Take care,

Buby

[wisdom mind]

interesting clarification guys!

what are standard silver bb pellets made of?

i got a bag with that in it, maybe i need to replace the bbs with iron pellets as mentioned, if bbs are not iron.

BUBY, see message on Southern forum...verizon got my lines fubar

im on IM

easy!

[Water Dragon]

bb's are steel. I think you can find shotgun shells filled with iron shot. How long did it take you to get from the beans to the shot?

[wisdom mind]

im going shooting tomorrow morning so ill pick up some shells!

piece!

lol

ive been banging on sand/gravel bag for 9 months and am due for the upgrade, thanks for the info...the progress in my case is unique though as ive been training my entire life in other areas of the arts along with doing fingertip and wrist pushups, tree conditioning, makiwara board etc so beginners might have an easier or more difficult time than I, i never did the beans cuz my hands were already conditioned :)

[Water Dragon]

LOL, the same thing happened with me and Iron Body. I was already told that I "had" the first level so they started me on the second. Funny thing is, I have no idea what it is I "have" or how I got it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

BB's are steel but becarful becuse some filled shot can be lead, which is posinious and harmful to the body. If you do find iron pellets which is rare but try looking around at pig iron or coke oven factories. you should not put them inside of a bag but rather fill a wok and strike them directly. My student built me a iron palm stand out of wood and he fastened my wok to reccess into the top with a nice cover to keep out contaminets. realize that the shot out of a shot gun shell is way to small and should not be used. Instead just fill your bag with mung beans and strike it till they turn to powder. Also are you useing jow? it is a must for training.

Buby, I actally have never heard of that before and I personally would not mix it in my jow for fear of contamination. But thats doesnt mean that I am right and that other people dont do this, becuse it's just my opinon.

Water dragon, I would explain most things on this board but I dont know what it is thart you want me to explian.

[blacktaoist]

Yi Wu, The palm training methods these guys are talking about are shaolin school of thought. As you know there are different approaches then using Iron.

If you want to train The shaolin way, then you should first start with a canvas bag filled with Mung beans. Most Iron palm practitioners start out with Mung Beans because of their Yin quality, and have a cooling effect on the energy in your hands as opposed to Iron which have a yang quality. In my opinion should not be used in palm training.

I never use Iron in my palm training Yi Wu, and you seen first hand what I can do with my Palms. And I have been practicing palm training for years.

But if you do start Training using Iron you should go see Grace Ho in China town. She can give you the right T'ieh Ta Wan pills which are usually taken when training the Iron palm also the t'ieh Ta Wan wines.

Like I told you before, there is more to Iron palm training then just striking a bag.

If you want more information, give me a call to night or stop by my class on sunday. You know How I do. peace


:D :D :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

Here is a good expmple of a awsome break by my ironn palm teacher.. this will show you technique and skill not strength or fake breaks with spacers and lifting. for this break is done by supension..... check it out

[fiercest tiger]

yes very impressive although not a very hard break. it would be nice to see a phoenix eye fist rather a palm!:)

whats his name and what style are you or him from?;)

[EARTH DRAGON]

firecest tiger you said not a very hard break? you cannot tell from the picture but when he starts the break his palm is touching the block! So I must totally disagree with you when you say that it is not a very hard break. He is not using force to break. anyone can do that at an intermedete level well not anyone but most iron palm practioners. So I can assure you it is a extremly difficult break. And have not seen anyone successfully do it. and I am not sure many people would try.

He told me aobut his teacher's teacher doing a vibrating palm which is where your hand never leaves contact with the object and you push chi through the block without lifting your hand. I have been told that there is only a few people in the world at this level.

His name is shrfu john newberry and he is my former kung fu brother and iron palm teacher. We are both shrfu's in 8 step praying mantis, however he learned iron palm from some else before training in our system

[fiercest tiger]

Dont get me wrong, i said it was still a nice break! so he never took his hand off the block? The way it looks he is using force and the other half is going flying across the picture so there is some force. Have you got an mpg or something i can see it done without hand movement?

vibrating palm break- what style did he learn the iron palm from?

[EARTH DRAGON]

Minumal but some force is used, however he starts the break with his hand on the block and uses what we call the wave motion transferred from the goround around the waist and out through the palm kinda like a bull whip action. The block does swing a bit but not from extrenal force but rather from the pendulum effect after the break. He has showed me a break that begins with the back of your hand on the block, and then you pull your hand back and flip your palm over keeping in contact with the block via the fingers. This is again considreed a high level break for you are not using a wave motion or external force but chi.
As far a vibrating palm I do not know what style it is nor the lineage. I have only been doing iron palm for 4 years so I am still just a begginer.

[fiercest tiger]

See those concrete blocks break like butter, after 4 years you still cant do this break?

why?:(

[yuxiang]

"dont worry about the dangers of practice and what not please just answer the question as is!"

I continue to use the previous methods, progressing up.

[EARTH DRAGON]

As I said, I am only a begginner, I dont think that 4 years is a long time in the study of iron palm or any other CMA, compared to the masters that I have trained with. I have been practicing martial arts for 19 years and still say to myself that I know a little and starting to understand. But the minute you think you know everything is when you are taught something by your teacher that makes you feel like you still have a lot to learn. people with big ego's that think they are good just havent met anyone better. As for your question no I cannot perform that break. I have tried but when I strike it just swings . I have tried to strike with force but it just swings more. I cannot perform selective breaking either, where you stack 2 or 3 blocks ontop one another ( with no spacers) and have someone select the block they want you to break. I can however slap break , where you sit a block on a stand and send chi through the (lao gong point) center of the palm and perform the break. but as for higher level breaks I cannot yet. How long have you been doing iron palm? what kind of break/ level have you reached? Have you tried a coconut break yet? give that one a whirl, I have seen one crushed till milk poured out. I was invited to try it with a 28 oz s wing roofing hammer.. and it just bounced off time after time with no sucess.... So again when I see people that have true iron palm I consider myself a begginner and nothing else.

[fiercest tiger]

hi again,

yes the coconut break i do mostly!:) i have students break them after 6 months also. you see i dont think breaking is a big thing and its used more for timming, mindset, and accuracy...lots of people can break things without iron palm.

The concrete block is farley easy compared to coconuts, well to easy. try touching the block with your fingers then snapping the palm into itrather then take a swing at it!!:)

im not very good at kung fu, i know very little and i also know i can get my a$$ kicked. There is always a higher mountain!

take care
FT

[EARTH DRAGON]

Hang on you say that you have students crushing coconuts after 6 months? I do find that extremly hard to believe but I am not saying that you are embelishing anything but who was your teacher? I studied with brain grey's top student and he has trouble with coconuts and he has been doing iron palm for about 11 years. and it takes many years of training to not only condition the hand but to cultivate and project the chi. Again I am not saying you are embellishing anything but 6 months ?????? maybe 6 years but not 6 months.

PS just checked out your website very nice but I wanted to ask about the iron palm picture on the right, IMHO he is not striking the bag correctly, true iron palm uses the center of the palm to strike and break not the heal so the hand should be flat, also his thumb is bent this is as I have been taught is a no no for when you bend the thumb joint you impeed the flow if chi due to the use of muscle which should not be tightened or flexed... please expalin thank you tiger

What is your veiw on selective breaking?

[fiercest tiger]

There are many ways to condition the hand, the picture is one way! 6 months thats right, i dont like brian greys methods at all sorry!!:(

i have broken coconuts in my hand as well, that was hard i must say. why couldnt someone do it? brian grey has a striking method and its not just palm, theres a chop, and rake i think?

well all i can say is you have your method of striking and i have mine, my students break coconuts within a year no bull****. using a palm heel thumb is bent like a willow leaf palm. palm can be flat or cupped depends where you strike. ill be putting some mpegs up soon one day so check out our iron palm there!

ykm has chi correction meds, chi kung forms that go with the iron palm...18 palms to be exact:) herbs also.

where and who did brian grey learn iron palm from?:)

regards
FT

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

You should never forget any part of your training because you never know when you have to go back to it.

Black Taoist was correct in starting with the beans first, then rocks and, finally, iron. They can either be in a bag or a cauldron as Earth Dragon stated. The choice is up to you. Have a good day.

xiaotiema