Are there two versions of eight step praying mantis?

[phantom]

I am just curious, is there a difference between the eight step mantis that the practitioners who are affiliated with James Sun do and the practitioners that are not? Thanks in advance.

[MonkSanTe]

This will probably cause some controversy, and I'm not an expert by any means. As far as I can tell, there are differences. I've learned a small amount of the Sun (green sash) version of 8 Step, and much more of the 8 step style the way Grandmaster Lin Chun Foo teaches it. I don't feel comfortable going into details about the differences, but they do exist. Sorry, I didn't do a real good job answering your question!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Their are always going to be differences in different lineages. They can always be compared and differentiated by body type, agaility, flexabliity and years spent leanring. As with any style of martial art different lineages pay different attention to different deatails. varations can even be seen in the same lineage but different schools. So to answer your question I dont think that any two people learn the and teach the exact same. So yes their is some characterisitics that fluxuate between the generations.

[Syre]

MonkSanTe, I'm curious about Grandmaster Lin Chun Foo. Where does he teach, and does he have disciples that teach?

What else can you say about the differences between the methods, or if you don't feel comfortable discussing that, what can you say about the strengths of the system that you've been studying?

Thanks

[phantom]

Syre, Sifu George Lisjack Teaches Lin Chun Fu's eight step mantis style at World Gym 540 Soutwestern Blvd., in Hamburg New York, 14075, phone number (716) 646-1674. He is currently studying under Master Lin Chun Fu. As for the differences between his style and Jmaes Sun's, I am curious as well.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Although George listjak may be advertising teaching 8 step praying mantis I can assure you that he is not qualified to teach or say that he is studying or even a student under Lin Chun Fu, He has only been to his class 3 or 4 times and breifly spoken to him. I know this for a fact becuse george has told me so and showed me the 2 video tapes that the masters student gave him to practice with!. I would not even mention that I was a student of anybody taking 3 or 4 classes. Master lin chun fu lives in NYC some 400 miles away from buffalo so how can he even call himself a student? He is married with 3 kids and works full time. As for monk sante he maybe able to give you his opinon but he himself I believe is only a begginer, so I dont think he knows enough to give a comparisan. I am in no way attempting to put anybody down but , lets face it we dont need anymore unqualified teachers runnning around trying to teach watered down half learned styles. We have enough of that already. thats the problem with kung fu nowadays, we cant shift through the legit ones and the dreamers!!!!!!!!!!

[MonkSanTe]

Actually, our school is located at 50 Lake Street, Hamburg New York. We are no longer at the gym. Maybe I can email you any other info you may be interested in. Mastersante@yahoo.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am glad george has his own school again , there to many rules when you are in a gym.

[Syre]

At the site:
http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/id30.htm
It says:

Sifu Dr. George Lisjak - Sifu Lisjak's first exposure to martial arts was watching the Green Hornet television series as a child growing up in Buffalo NY. during the late 60's.

Throughout the 70's Sifu Lisjak studied various martial arts including Kenpo Karate at International Self Defense, Hung Gar Kung Fu with Sifu Norm Mandarino under Master Ting Fong Wong, high school Judo and Jeet Kune Do from whatever literature he could get his hands on. Sifu Lisjak then became interested in body building and placed in several regional competitions.

In 1984, he graduated Magna Cum Laude from Life University in Atlanta, Georgia as a Doctor of Chiropractic. Post graduate studies in Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine led to certification by the International Academy of Clinical Acupuncture. During the 80's Sifu Lisjak studied Tae Kwan Do and Kick boxing.

In 1988 Sifu Lisjak began a long term study of Praying Mantis Kung Fu under James Sun, Sifu Lisjak opened a school in 1995, was made New York State Representative in 1995, elected head of the Education Department for the American Chinese Martial Arts Federation and given a Generation Disciple Pendent and a Chinese name Xun Di Ser.

Sifu Lisjak renounced his disciple staus and became independent from James Sun in 2000 to seek other affiliations and broaden his education in different styles of Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Pachi Chuan, Pakua, Hsing-I, and Tai Chi. The unrivaled beauty in its colorful expression, fluidity, and effectiveness of Northern Praying Mantis has led to a life long dedication.

Sifu Lisjak is currently training under Grandmaster Lin Chun Fu. Sifu Lisjak is also training with Sifu Ilya Profatilov and Sifu Michael Martello.

Sifu Dr. George Lisjak teaches 8 Step Praying Mantis Kung Fu at World Gym 5450 Southwestern Blvd. Hamburg, NY 14075 (716) 646-1674.

[mantis7]

Hey all sorry for sticking my nose in family affairs bu I have meet Mr Sun and have seen Mr George listjak with them. In my younger days and I do recall Mr Sun tellimg me and my training brothers "this is my student and New York Rep George listjak at at tournaent after he cam down from the stands to met my frist Sifu Raul Ortiz. Now a I do not belong to the eight Step families and I know not Mr Sun or Mr George listjak I am not bias towards either side. As I have seen Mr George listjak Perform and If his movments are any indication of his skill I say he represent 8 step mantis to a decent extent well actually a decent level.

I think it is wrong for anyone to b chastise because they leave a famliy to further there Gung fu knowledge.For The longest to my knowledge Mr Listjak was a rep of Mr Sun and a Sifu. I hope Mr Sun isnt in the buisness of making some one a sifu then when they want to coninue on there path of knowledge say ater th ties is broken " oh he never trained under me and he or she has no skill"

Earth Dragon it seems when ever some comes up and say they are 8 step mantis someone always from the Sun family comes up and say no they are not. I for one knows there are several 8 step lineage but it seems the Sun family wants only one to recognize.

I know politc is politic but come on Mt Listjak trained under Mr Sun and whn he was introduced he was introduce with such pride. The martial arts world is to small for a statmnt to be made like that. Proof is in the pudding he moves like Sun mantis he fights liks Sun he does the same movments lik Sun so its must be Sun but that is my educated guess.

Oh I am seven star mantis by the way..

One further question there is Marlong Ma sifu that teaches eight step in Manhattan some where oh lt me guess he isnt real legit oh supper supreme real deal 8 step neither

Sorry guys but I really hate school politics lool

:rolleyes:

[Pong Lai]

Marlone Ma:

Shrfu Ma visited my school when my Shrfu (Shr Zheng Zhong) was visiting in March 2001. From what I understand from Mr. Ma, he learned his Mantis together with Tony Yang from Su Yu Zhang.
I also had the opportunity to visit his school soon after that.

Thus, he has learned various styles of mantis from Shrfu Su, not an 8 step purist.

[Pong Lai]

Is anyone aware if Wei Hsiao Tang's book (Chinese) ," ¨Ï¥ÎÁ®½¸®±Application of Praying Mantis", has every been translated in Engligh by his many disciples and grand-disciples in the West?

Seems to be a lot of 8 Step purist in the States, but little literature that I am aware of in English. His book could answer a lot of basic questions of various aspects of mantis (8 step) for many of the 8 step particpants here.

[EARTH DRAGON]

While I applaud your right to try to stick up for george listjak their are some things that I would like to point out so that everyone knows the truth.

you posted.......... In 1988 Sifu Lisjak began a long term study of Praying Mantis Kung Fu under James Sun, Sifu Lisjak opened a school in 1995, was made New York State Representative in 1995, elected head of the Education Department for the American Chinese Martial Arts Federation and given a Generation Disciple Pendent and a Chinese name Xun Di Ser.

George never ever studied under master shyun but rather one of his students sifu dean economus. How do I know this? I trained at the same school from sifu dean which was located in buffalo on elmwood ave and then it moved to sheridan dr and then to parkside all in buffalo. master shyun lived in San francisco CA and the only way he met george was from seminars that master shyun did once a year and a couple of 3 day sifu camps.how do I know he never studied with him in san francisco? I lived at the school with master shyun he is my sifu not george's george reffers to him a master shyun not sifu. He did open school and he teach 8 step but never recieved a generation diciple name!

you then posted ......Sifu Lisjak renounced his disciple staus and became independent from James Sun in 2000 to seek other affiliations and broaden his education in different styles of Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Pachi Chuan, Pakua, Hsing-I, and Tai Chi.

this is not true either he was kicked out of the american chinese martial arts federation. for breach of contract and neglagence for state rep regulations meaning that he went behind master shyun back and trading information to other people not involved with 8 step one of our federation rules. and dissreguarded 2 other rules, guidelines and reg. that are stated in the federation. And a few personal things that I wish not to put forth on a public forum however the things stated above are general knowledge. so he had no choice but to move on for he was not given any other options. you can see for your self that his name has been removed from the 8 step.com/updates web site he is not even acknowledged as a sifu or authorized to tech 8 step.

if you think that I am being harsh towards him there are many reasons he has done a lot to hurt the credibility of our teacher and our system and has impeeded its growth in numerous ways. so that I hold kinda personal. Plus as soon as he was kicked out of our system he started bad mouthing everyone that was affiliated with 8 step you can read for your self on this board and his forum I invite you to read his forum topic moonsun his screen name is orchidmantis.
by the way his bio was taken from HIS own webiste so that should tell you how much credibility it holds.
again I will stick up for my system and my teacher always especially when he is not here to defend himself.....

mantis 7 I do realize that ther is other 8 step teachers in the world and even the US and I have no problem acknowledging that fact, but there are also people who claim things that they are not and give the system a bad name. you have to remember it is a rare syatem unlike that of say hung gar so we pretty much know everyone involved with it and try to keep a tight lid on people attempting to water it down and ruin its roots....

[Tainan Mantis]

I'm 99% sure that this book has not been translated into English.

Wei Hsiao Tang himself told my teacher Shr Zheng Zhong that it was written by his students.

But there are several 8 Step sections with GM Wei.
-The 8 stances(pics) and poems of five character rhyming verse.
-dzai yao sec. 2 (incomplete)
-Two of his students with some applications. They are both still active in the MA community. One teaching in Taipei and one in USA.
-written manuscript of most empty hand forms.

Confusing matters are the sections on plum flower and 7* which are intermingled through out the book, but lacking titles of which style they come from.
-The plum flower was copied from the inner door manuscripts in the possesion of Li Deng Wu, Li Kun Shan's son.
So it makes for interesting reading except that PM people of other styles will probably have no idea what it is about.

-The 7* version is almost entirely from chapter excerpts edited from WHF book SOME THOUGHTS ON PM(Tang Lang Suei Bi).
If ever there was a PM book worthy of translation this is it. It is all his magazine articles arranged in book format.

8 Step literature

One of the best sources would be Wei's famous student Dzo Hsien Fu who publishes articles in Taiwan MA magazines almost every month.
Sitting on my desk is a recent issue of Taiwan WU Ling. His article is over 30 pages and consists of Wei's personal Taiji system called Wei Shr Taiji. Very serious stuff.

[Syre]

Hi,

I wasn't sticking up for or undermining anyone at all. I merely found that web page, put in a link to it, and copied it, so that people here who seemed to be interested could read it.

I don't know anything about the people involved and have actually never heard of 'em!

cheers,
S

[Syre]

Actually, what I'm curious about is... who's Lin Chun Fu and where does he teach?

[mantis7]

EARTH DRAGON

Thank you for reminding me that that there is three sides to every story his yours and the truth. Since I only knew of one inccident I cant not make any true educated judgement. But you have lighten my heart in saying that you do give creedence to other 8 step sifu's BRAVO my hat is off to you. Asyou seem to a be a good student to your sifu as you protect his good name and family. Has off to you again. Since I do not know if he did those things or not. If he did handle it in the old ways. but thats just IMO. but good luck in your training and many blessings in this new year

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you mantis 7,
for understanding and as you read tainan mantis previous post he will assure you that my teacher was not the only one who studied from master Wei. Although I have pictures writhings and video of him I know that other people have the same , and I am not saying that my lineage is the only one, but some other people have made claims about learning/knowing 8 step just to say that they have been close to my grand teacher. And those bad apples needed to be brought into the spot light sorta to speak. but anyways I too wish you good luck to you in the new year as well. take care and god bless. E.D

syre , I beileive that master lin chun fu teaches 8 step in NYC but I am not exactly sure where. If you check out yellowpages.com and check the kung fu listings in NYC I am sure you will find the address of his school. good luck to you.... your freind E.D

[mantis7]

lin chun fu

i have done some searching and have drawn a blank on the where abouts of this paticular teacher... me thinks maybe he is closed door or underground teacher. I can be wrong but good luck in your search. He may also have a class at the layfayette studios as it seems to be rented by alot fo gung fu teachers or may be teaching out of rented space with no advertisement of another school like a lot of sifu's tend to do using only word of mouth as advertisment. But who knows

[Pong Lai]

Thanks for the input TM.
We can agree that 8 step incorporates the theories of other PM styles, thus the book should refer to other teachings previously recorded.

TM, you have plenty of time on your hands, why not begin translating a lot of the literature for those in the West whom do not have the Chinese reading skills. My point was that a lot of people on line seem to be craving the knowledge but have little access to articles in English that I am aware of.

[Kravmantis]

Master Lin is actually located in the Los Angeles area and I'm not sure if he has a web site. Master Su is in New York City his web site is http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/. Hope this helps.

[The Power]

This fourm is for people to get information on Praying Mantis not fight! All I ever hear is earth dragon tell everyone how wrong they are. Is he a Grandmaster of all Martial arts of some sort? I know Master Shyun very well and he says you are a less then desireable student. Maybe this whole thing with you is you trying to get back in the good graces of Shyun? Please leave all the rest of us out of it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

interesting you post , you say you know my teacher very well and he told you that I am less than a desireable student? let me guess you talked to him on the phone just yesteday right? and he came out and said that earth dragon is such and such.do you even know my name? when and why would you talk about me if you dont even know me? I think you are a liar Mr power and I think that you should keep your liying to yourself becuse this is between people in our federation and funny but if you want to be left out of this as you say then why include yourself in it? I dont quite understand how you could post a lie and then in your last sentance say please leave all the rest out of this????????? thew only one I have ever said anything bad about on this forum is george listjak and he has given me plenty of reason to however i did not start this thread nor start this argument but I will stick up for myself and my teacher..... So I say politley if you want left out then stop telling lies....................

[The Power]

I know who you are Mike. Im not trying to start anything, But you have something bad to say about everybody. Truth is Master Shuyn has bad things to say about you. So please, try to keep the bashing of other people to your self. ( Earth Dragon.. AKA Mike Haily)

[EARTH DRAGON]

really ? you know who I am, even though I have never met you ? let me guess you looked on my webiste and got my name (spelled wrong by the way) but if you indeed knew me you would know that I never said anything bad about anybody only george listjak and I have explained why many times before. acutally if you knew me you know I am just the oppisite I find the good in every body. read my ealier post I was even glad to hear that george finally had his own school again,even though we dont get along so please do not judge what you dont know. You say that you dont want to start anything but wernt you the one who posted something negitive about me? I think so.

as for master shyun talking bad about me why dont you give me your real name so when I talk to him I can ask him if indeed he has ever spoken to you at all! I invite you to look over all my posts and find where I have ever said anything bad about anyone. Iiam sure that others on this board will stick up in my defense and tell you that I post only to help people and answer their questions, I have many students on this forum and would never discredit myself by speaking negitively against another martial artist on this or any other board so again please do not judge me by this thread alone. thanks

[The Power]

Mike I am sorry I upset you. You should find out who your real friends are. You say you speak with Shuyn? Then I would think twice about how you trust the man. I spoke with him before Christmas and he bashed you and the way you are on this fourm. Please be carefull. I too have fell to bashing in the past!

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am not upset, but a little confused, you say that you know me but I do not know you or do I ? I am also confused about your relationship with master shyun, you say that you spoke to him beofre christmans but why did my name come up ? usually you only bring up people in convo thaty you both know so agin I am confused. as for saying bad things about peopl on this board i will again invite you tolook back anbd paste one of my posts in which I said anything but helpful answers and my opinons in a postitive way. I am careful what I post for many reasons but mostly for the fact many of my students on are these boards and read most all of my posts. So as a teacher and a sifu i will not discredit my self by sinking to the level of ridicule, argue or say negitive things about people and or thier arts. So that is the only thing that upset me, but I would like you to clear up my confusion. And as you said many people say many bad things behind peoples backs... its a shame but people are quick to judge others before looking at themselves.... your freind E.D