Ralek:the reason y WC x train in BJJ, but BJJ dosn't x train in WC

[CanadianBadAss]

Most styles of MA r more or less just a collection of techniques. So really, if you see some techniques you like in system why not X train in that style a bit and add them to your arsenal. But when it comes to WC, I think it's almost useless to do a bit X training in this system, because a WC counter to a hook or a kick or whatever is almost useless by it's self, you might as well be learning karate. But if you take the time and really learn WC (from a good teacher), then you can apply the attributes developed through SLT, rolling hands, sticky hands to techniques from other styles you can make it that much more effective.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Once again I feel that a strong and well developed foundation in any art is what is needed. With a thorough understanding of the core principles of your art you will be able to incorporate things from other arts into your method and apply it from that perspective.

One of the biggest problems in martial arts today, regardless of style, is that many lack understanding of what the art is all about. For example, take the "X" block found in most styles of karate. If done as a static posture then it becomes almost useless. However, if done as a dynamic flowing technique in which the movement continues then it can be quite useful. The problem is not in the "block" itself but in the the understanding of how to apply the method.

Wing Chun is a wonderful system in that it is based on concepts and not limiited by shapes and forms of techniques. Take Taun Sau, you can apply its energy in a variety of ways. It is only limited by ones understanding of the "technique" and the energy involved.

The problem with learning X and then adding it to something else you like is that if you do not have a firm foundation in something first there is nothing upon which to build. The most stable buildings in the world all start with a firm foundation. You may be able to mix different archetectural styles but they still need one foundation to be built on.

Peace,

Dave

[hunt1]

The entire debate of WC vs grappling or Wc and ring fighting is based on an apples vs fish comparison. Therefore a meaningless debate.

We are comparing professional fighters to weekend warriors at best.Anyone who does nothing but train or train and teach for 8 to 10 hours per day is going to be a better fighter than someone who works a real job 8 hours a day and maybe gets to train 2 hours a day if he is lucky and doesnt have a family to take care of etc.

[David Jamieson]

ahem,,,actually hunt, I personally know people who don't "train" martial arts, don't teach martial arts and can beat the living daylights out of plenty of martial artists.

Now, for all the enthusiasts who like the uhb and nfc and whatever acronym fighting venue you like, wasn't there some Tank guy who cleaned up in these events who hadn't trained a day in his life but was just a tough dude?

I think that training in martial arts will refine and improve what is there already and in the doing will help you to be a better fighter, but I do not think that training martial arts for the sake of training martial arts will "make" you a fighter. at least not in my experience. I know plenty of martial artists and the smaller percentage of them are actually "fighters" when it comes down to it. Still, they do benefit from the arts.

peace

[jweir]

Tank Abbot is a total bad@ss who has no martial arts training and zero respect for martial artists. He did beat some "dojo fighters" as he calls them, but only about half the time. The UFC website (http://www.ufc.tv/fighters/heavy.asp?fighterID=53) lists his record as 8-7-0. I've only seen one of his fights and it was against a BJJ fighter who was totally confident that he would submit Tank easily. The BJJ guy was caught completely off guard by the fact that Tank didn't want to just roll around on the ground and Tank hook-punched him in the back of the head and knocked him out in under a minute. Tank fights primarily with strikes, and keeps attacking and attacking until he has either won or lost. Some of the stuff he does would sort of fit with Wing Tsun strategy, but mostly he's just a brawler. He thinks that he could beat any of the Gracies, but we'll never see that fight because the Gracies would never take the challenge. He once said something like "just because someone trains in a dojo doesn't mean they're tough." I would have to agree with him.

[Majic Sam]

Is possible for someone to agree w/ you all?Well,I DO!Some famous,dead chinese guy had the right idea when he said that it's not so much what you train,but HOW you train.He also said that the individual is more important than the given style.Train hard and often with emphasis on what works for you.

After many years of playing various styles of music ,I have found what works best for me-Just being myself.I learned the rudiments of drumming as a child and still use them today.Learned a bunch of rules,now I break them and go for the gusto.Personality and intensity are what I hope to get across.The best compliment I ever had was from someone who told me that I may or may not be the best drummer around ,but I made this one band sound better once I replaced the old member.I knew that my work was complete,especially since the old drummer was more experienced and had more "chops" than myself.

BTW Ralek,I'm a fan of both Sakuraba and Rickson,but Gracie is a BJJ God and Saku is a MMA God.Two different worlds.Gracie is best in the family,but I have WAY more respect for Royce and Renzo because they FIGHT.Rickson has yet to face any substantial competition.He's the big fish that got away.He won't challenge Saku because his so called undefeated record has a very good chance of being tarnished.Too bad that we will never know the outcome because he only fights B-level Japanese fighters.

Happy Holidays all!

[straight blast]

Why do you people even respond to him? My mother taught me that if you ignore people like that they eventually go away. And since he's safe behind a keyboard the option of him going away in a pine box is unfortunately reduced, plus the chance of him actually responding to a fight offer is ludicrous. If he thinks MMA & BJJ is so s**t hot, WTF does he keep perusing a Kung Fu board?
Lots of people cross train in WC. It just takes a while, that's all. I made the mistake of underestimating WC and got my a$$ kicked. I did Muay Thai, and that's a lot more "hands on" than BJJ. Ignore the little snot.
My apologies to the people out there who actually practise BJJ, by the way. What I meant is that in Muay Thai you run a good chance of being knocked out every lesson. I know in BJJ you run the chance of having your joints redesigned from the ground up and losing the odd ligament every now and then, but at my old MT hall someone usually got creamed every session. It's not a good way to train, but it was the only way available.
I have lots of respect for people who do BJJ, just not the little try hards who have no idea and bring shame to your style by claiming some association.
Pride comes before a big, long nasty fall...

[Ford Prefect]

I think that the reason why you don't see BJJ people x-training in wing chun is because it doesn't mesh with what the way they are used to training. They want to be in an athletic endeavor that leaves them tired and sweaty at the end of a training session. Learning forms, stances, etc doesn't appeal to them. They can learn an art like Muay Thai to fill the gap of not having much striking in the art, and the NHB fighters tend to lean toward the heavy handed styles like that.

Wing Chun and most other kung fu styles are good for self defense when trained properly, but because of their rigidness and lack of training in certain ranges, they don't fair well against other trained fighters. I think it all depends on what the individual wants. After all, it is highly unlikely that you are going to square off against somebody in a large room in a self defense situation. You'll most likely be attacked quickly with the person in your face in the blink of an eye. This is where WC comes in. When your arms are entangle, who's going to reflexively trap, parry, and blast? Stepping into the ring with a finely-tuned athlete who is well versed in fighting standing up, in a clinch, and on the ground is a whole different can of worms and requires different tactics.

I've trained BJJ, boxing, and muay thai. Also, I've train Ba Gua (Park Bok-Nam), kempo, and Judo. I've seen the benefits of training in a sportive manner and the benefits of training in a traditional manner. I think the best choice for everyday needs a combination of the two. That's why I'm training JKD now.

[old jong]

They don't need it! All they want is to completely bypass the stand up fighting and go to the ground.

[Ford Prefect]

From my experience with BJJ fighters (ie training stricly BJJ for a couple years) that is not true. They'd love to learn how to fight standing.

[KenWingJitsu]

"The entire debate of WC vs grappling or Wc and ring fighting is based on an apples vs fish comparison. Therefore a meaningless debate. " I agree completely.

As a SERIOUS practitioner of BOTH wing sun and brazilian ju jitsu, I easily beat up my BJJ friends with wt, and tap out my wt friends with bjj....of course only when they get too ****y about one or the other.

Be open minded peole. both methods have different goals, & both complement each other. BJJ is like 'full-body chi-sao'. Infact wt helped me get a very quick grasp o BJJ wjen I figured out the "yeild" part.

[old jong]

;) Good post!:D

[yuanfen]

Agree with KUNGLEK- the toughest fighter that I have ever known in the US(knew others elsewhere) didnt have a single martial arts, boxing, wrestling , football, weightlifting lesson- yet he wiped the floor with boxers, wrestlers, judokas and gifted athletes.he would laugh at things like the UFC.But after years of ruling the streets someone stuck a rusty ice pick into him. He lived but was not the same afterwards.
he fell back more on his other skill- gun fu. Not a good role model.
He also cheated at cards- and made a living by it.