One Last Question About Iron Palm and Body

[Yung Apprentice]

I heard how these tecniques are done with ones chi.I saw(once) a demo of iron palm and body. It was really interesting. But the guy kind of took his time in doing it, kind of like focusing himself,almost meditating. My question is, if you had to defend your can you use these tecniques out of the blue,abruptly? Or do you have to focus first? Is it used just for demo or can one actually use it in defending one's self? Also is iron palm the same as iron fist? Does iron body also go for the head? Meaning does it help one with his "chin". So he doesn't have a glass jaw? I'm not a disbeliever, I just would like to know more about it.

[JWTAYLOR]

Both work without focusing, especially iron palm. Iron Body may need a split second of set up depending on your level. Both work well for fighting.

Iron Palm trains the hand, mostly the Palm. Iron Fist trains the knuckles and the fist.

I don't usually see Iron Body focus much attention on the head, it's usually just the body. In fact, it's usually Iron Vest, not all of Iron Body. Golden Bell, or Golden Bell Cover does include the entire body. But good luck finding a reputable Golden Bell teacher. I know I haven't.

JWT

[David Jamieson]

for demonstrative purposes, unusual feats are the focus and require a little focus. As well, the demonstration becomes more vital to the viewer.

However, the results of the training are where it serves one in combat.

Iron Palm training allows you to strike without the neuralgia (pain) associated with striking bone or hard surfaces and allow the striker to inflict maximum damage.

Iron Body training allows you to be struck without the other striker being able to damage you to much. Iron body/vest/shirt etc has as it's focus the regulation of the water body within, understanding or wrapping and absorption and return of force.
In Tai Chi, this principle or a variant of it is known as "swallow and spit" This is only one aspect.

Both are ways of conditioning the body and the weapons of the body IE: The Hands.

There are quite a few other "Kung" exercises that have been developed to harden bone, toughen the skin and cartilaganeous materials and bring a quality to the tissues of flesh themselves that will hel[p the practitioner in a very practical way to hit with more force and to be able to be hit with considerable force without having to recover from the pain assoiciated with the use and acceptance of such force.

It is a way of "getting used to" the aspects of fighting that will occur during live combat.

The idea of pain is mostly associated with how your mind receives the transmissions from you nerves. Much of the training involved is focusing the mind and blocking the pain that is perceived. You still feel the actual response from the nerves because when you do these practices properly you do not damage any of the nerves.

pain and pleasure are intrinsically linked. The responses to both can be regulated and enhanced through practice of such things as Chi Kung, Nei Kung and other mental exercises. The conditioning exercises are important also and should not be forgone in the case of both. As you build muscle through repitition of motion with either weight, isotonic and isometric and dynamic tension or labour so too do you build the mind through the inward reflections and mental exercises that work hand in hand with this.

peace

[Bak Mei]

Iron Palm is terrible for you. Look at the hand in Gray's Anatomy, see how many points come together at your hand, now slam that against a solid bag over and over and over again.

What do you think will happen when you are 60? As for Iron body, it is only affective against the first blow, and those that hit properly, penetrating, it will have no affect. Cute little tricks, but not something one should rely on if planning to fight higher level practioners. On the street, yea!

Short power I think is a better goal to obtain, explosive power from contact, not an inch away. I think one get's a better return on investment.
Just my two cents.

Explosive or short power creates that opening for the kill shot. Without that one second opening iron anything does not matter.

It all comes down to the basid: Keep your door closed, OPEN THEIR DOOR, hit.

[David Jamieson]

Bak mei.

Iron Palm training is only "bad for you" if you don't know the correct method.

My sifu has hands that are soft and supple but he also has trained Iron Palm for a very long time. So, your statment only applies to those who "think" they are doing iron palm. They are not, they are just hitting stuff.

I have trained Iron Palm since 97 and my hands are uncalloused and not in the least bit messed up beneath the skin in the tissue or bone (medicine is used in tandem witrh the training).

I hit the mung bean bag and as well have a sand bag and steel shot bag. I use Dit Da Jow and use the iron palm method as taught to me by my sifu and as it is laid out in the chinese manuals which were gleened from the practice at Shaolin Temple and as well from Kyu Yu Cheong himself.
As well, I practice Nei Gong on a very regular basis.

Kwong Wing Lam propogates these teachings and offers training via correspondence or at one of his kwoons.
His method is correct as is the IP method of pretty much anyone in the KYC Northern Shaolin lineages, of which there are many.
If you are looking to do this training and cannot find anyone to train you, then this is who I would suggest to you as your starting point for this type of Kung fu training.

peace

[Xebsball]

Iron Palm is definately not bad for you if done corectly, it's good for your health.

Kung Lek explained better, so thats it.

[Ginger Fist]

--good post mr. moderator ... good western words 4 the stuff ... btw - swallow & spit r fundamental in spm 2 ... body posture should b able 2 swallow - absorb - channel received force ... spit is return of favor - directed reaction ... on 1 level

--bak mei ... u r wrong ... my grandmother's hands feel silky smooth ... but she can stick her hand in2 ur body ... leave nice holes where u didn't have any be4 ... pity u speak 4 bak mei like that bro'

[Bak Mei]

I am happy that you gentlemen are happy with your training -- I am happy with mine.

I speak for noone but myself, who happens to have an old screen name which hasn't been changed yet. I only know a very small peace of the Bak Mei system, but liked it alot. In fact, now that I am studying HSing-I and Ba Gua, I am convinced the founfer of that system studied something very similiar.


As for your training, I hope you don't see your mistake down the road; 98 is not that long ago.

As for me, I am also quite happy with my training. I am now a student of NYC Master Bong Chan, and anyone in the NYC area is well aware of this man's reputation as a fighter. At 60 still accepting challenges in a hostile environment, NYC CHinatown.

I am also quite comfortable with where my training is at, though still much more to learn.

As for Iron Palm, I can say this, I know two NYC sifu's (well known S. Mantis) who were in the hospital this year as a result of their internal training. Be that they are students of Gin Foo MArk, the man that brought the system to NYC, I will assume that they were doing it right. One of them had to have his intestins unwound -- a dangerous procedure. Thanks God he is OK, because he is a good man. This was not from Iron Palm, but improper breathing.

[Bak Mei]

I am also curious how no one commented on my preference for short power as a more worth while goal, any thoughts on that?

Also, I NEVER rely on manuals from Shaolin Temple. Who's manuals? When were they written?

In the end, I am not concerned if someone can split a coconut with their hand, because in the end they will not place more than a pound of pressure on my body (even that is too much).

I believe in training fighting, pushing angles, body alignment and technique ... over and over and over again.

I will say this, I was hitting hard when I did my Iron Palm training. I've done it. You assume too much about me. I started external training when I was 4, I am now 27 going on 28.

There are other ways to prodce power, not by muscle but by mass, and at 210 lbs, I have that, mass.
Well, have a great holiday. Be careful with your training. My greatgrandmother smoked and drank whisky and lived to be 90, doesn't mean that formula will be healthy for me or you.

[David Jamieson]

BM-

The manual I have in my posession dates from 1935 printed in Taiwan originally.

It was compiled by the Kuo Min Tangs Kyo Shu orginization in that time when it was in it's early years from the Shaolin sources of it's martial masters.

It is not a recent production in any way.

When I began my training in IP, I was instructed to not "Hit" the bag, but to use a method of "dropping" the hand. This method was used for a very long time before actually applying any sort of force to the bags.

with the dropping method, the force is generally dispersed into the bag and doesn't come back into your hand so much as it does when you say hit a makawari board with hard force.

it's cause and effect in practice. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. if you put enough force in that can be absorbed by the bag then that force is not turned back on you, it is dispersed and benefit is gained.
If you hit the bag harder than the bags material state can handle, some of the force is returned to your hands and that is where damage can and will occur.

When you do start hitting the bags with force, the contents of the bags are changed to harder materials to more readily absorb the force without pushing it back at you. Yin and Yang are very important in this training.

Also, it is considered "advanced" training and for the most part the student is not introduced to Iron Palm or Iron Body until well after they have learned many fundaments of Kung Fu itself.

Anyway, I am happy with my training and continue to do so to the best of my ability and as exacting as I was taught what I was taught. it's the traditional way :)

peace

[Water Dragon]

Interesting Kung,
I'm getting ready to start (just waiting for my jow) and that's almost exactly what I was told, to the letter.

[fa_jing]

I get Dit Tao formulae and any chinese medicine I want on north Clark street in Chicago. If you haven't ordered already I can bring you some when we get together. The guy has alot of stuff in vials like dried seahorses. Plus stuff like Chinese herbal tablets against colds, throat infections, etc. Don't know much about TCM concoctions but the stuff he has reccomended has been pretty good.
-FJ

[Bak Mei]

Kung Lek, that is exactly the taining I under when as well. Same method.

But we also tied up two bags to the side of us at about shoudler hight and one suspended by bungee in front.

We would drop palm down in front of us and then flip it over and drop the bwck of the hand, then the other side, then back hand to the posted side bags and then a round of punches to the suspended bags in front.

I finished this training a little over a year ago. It was the last thing I did before studying with my current master. He is 100% against it. And, since he is honestly the best I have ver seen in my 23 years of studying, at 60 beats 20, 30, 40, 50 years olds on a monthly basis (challenges occur a lot here in (Chiantwon) I take his word for it. He is genuinely regarded as one of the best in the world with the pole, and the best with the sword.

If you have some time, go to google and type in David Chan Bong. I knowRobert Chu wrote an artcile about the pole, and an aold man in NYC Chinatown a year or two ago that's on the Web. My master, and the old man, one of my master's master, is in that article. About him. Just to get an idea of why I would listen to this man.

My hitting power increased during Iron Palm, no doubt. I felt good. Never was hurt. I used the Jow of coarse. But, when seeing it from another angle it makes sense. Training is for self defense, what's the point of beating the hell out of yourself, the hands are sensitive. Just thought I'd drop my two cents, a surgeans general warning.

[Bak Mei]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chusauli/articles_feilungfumun.shtml


that's the article.

[David Jamieson]

BM-

I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps your current teacher finds that the method conflicts with the teachings he is propogating. In which case, I also believe that there are some methods which are contrary to each other and when incorporated into the same system can indeed be detrimental to the practitioner. This is due to not being given that information beforehand and compiling information based out of two or more systems. It happens.

The warnings I have been given about iron palm are mainly in regards to how one touches or physically interacts with others, especially the very young, the very old or frail people. For instance one can be a bit "vigorous" in something as simple as a hand shake!

It is also worthy of note that we are talking about the "indirect" method of iron palm as opposed to the "direct" method of Iron palm. The direct method will take less time to gain the desired effect but does inflict more wear and tear on the hands and requires much more care, attention and medicine to the hands to keep them supple. I personally am not interested in the direct method practice as I am fairly certain the long term effects would be not worth it. This type of training (the direct method of thrusting into the stone filled urns or heated filings filled urns) had it's purpose in the olden days when someone needed to train up the iron palm in a short period of time for practical use in the here and now. Nowadays, it is less preferable of a method but it is still done in some schools. Maybe because they never learned the indirect method or maybe just to keep the practice alive. my personal preference is the indirect method.

peace

[TIger Hand]

That article sounds like something out of the "Shaw Brothers" movies.

BOO $HIIIT!

I don't care if your Mas Oyama, Chung Lai Chung, Ku Yu Chung, etc. If your 60+ yrs. your body is way past the peak of someone who is 20,25,30 etc. and also trains hard in martial arts.

And that is science, based on Gray's Anatomy and physiology.

[Paul]

I've noticed on this forum and through talking to teachers and students in the real world that most people who are learning or teaching one of the internal arts seem to be against iron palm and hand conditioning. Anyone know why this is?

[phantom]

I have heard that certain kinds of iron palm training can cause health problems when combined with cotton palm training. Can anybody pease elaborate on this? Thanks in advance.

[Bak Mei]

Cool. Yea, scorching my hands seems a little extreme.

One interesting thing my S. Mantis teacher told me was to be careful having unprotected sex during Iron Palm, that the Jow could abort a fetus. I do not know if this is true or not, but ...

Well, nice meeting you. Enjoy a nice long holiday weekend.

Peace

[Ginger Fist]

I only know a very small peace of the Bak Mei system, but liked it alot.

--here's another piece for u then ... hung mei wiped out bak mei

As for your training, I hope you don't see your mistake down the road; 98 is not that long ago.

--great-grandmother crossed over to the other side at 112 yrs ... trained 4 more decades than ur sifu has time on the earth ... tremendous iron palm ... my grandmother is 91 ... trained more yrs than ur sifu has time on the earth ... hands silky smooth yet can put holes in ur body

As for me, I am also quite happy with my training.

--& that is ? really counts ... good 4 u & good 4 ur teacher 2

As for Iron Palm, I can say this, I know two NYC sifu's (well known S. Mantis) who were in the hospital this year as a result of their internal training.

--then u go on 2 say it wasn't from iron palm training ... get ur facts right

--some of the internal training is very-very dangerous ... big reward with big risk ... matter of personal choice

--instead of pronouncing iron palm as bad y not just say "this is how we look at it ..." no argument there as u know how ur sifu thinks about certain stuff

[Bak Mei]

Tiger Hand, I'm 27, been training since I'm 4 and fight at least once a week, used to be three times a week but now I trake a train into Chinatown to train 3 times a week so the schedule has been adjusted.

At 27 I can not touch my teacher. I can physically make contact, but then its over. My teacher insists we train at full power. That means being able to absorb a full power punch.

The latest to challenge my teacher was was a 35 years old Hung Gar player from Taiwan. Fresh off the boat, his friends convinced him that beating my sifu would give him a good name, and he could open a school -- American dream. He came, got beat, and is probbaly serving someone some noodles right now.

Also, some Monk from Shoalin (roll my eyes because I think that institution is a joke now and have reasons for it) wanted to open a school in Chinatown two months ago. All the Chinatown sifus got together and my sifu fought him -- he's the official tester and most respected here -- and then they wrote their comment down annonamously. I swear that this is the truth.

I never beleived that these "true masters" existed before, but they do, and they are little old men in Chinatown. It took me a hear of searching and kowtowing to others to finally get the intro.

The proof is in the putting. You are more than welcomed to come see for yourself. We pride ourselfs on no BS. My teacher will not even send someone out to fight unless he is 100% of victory, because he has a great name to protect. In his words: "If you are going out to fight, you're not ready. We just go and beat. You don't have to fight with a 5 year old, you just beta him. It sould be like that with everyone."

[Xebsball]

Hey man, so challenge matches are common in chinatown?
Could you please post some stuff about the ones you seen?

[Bak Mei]

Ginger fist, I do not feel a need to get my facts straight because I have nothing to prove to you, and certainly no one else here. I was pointing out that many styels have very unhealthy practices.

Hung Mei wiping out Bak Mei (well, first I think you watch too many movies) is a legend and no one can prove these facts, though that has little to do with you or me, or the fact that I am not even a Bak Mei player. I picked up the name because at the time I was researching the history of the person and found it interesting.

I am now studying Hsing-I and Ba Gua, that's what I would consider myself. My teacher has his own system as well, E-chuan, and I know I would roll my eyes to here of another creating there own system, but I know this man and know what he is capable of -- with or without weapons.

Hung Mei wiped out Bak Mei:rolleyes:

[Bak Mei]

My master's challenge matches are conducted behind closed doors. Only his disciple was present and she told me what happened.

I could understand this, because much face is on the line. I am proud of my teacher. Any man that demands you attack with full force, with or without weapons, has my respect -- I have never had a teacher that demanded this before. I respect it, because it is real. Everyone of his students have been around the block. There is not holding the hand out while the other does what they want.

We earn and gain each other's respect daily. Everything is full on.


As for me, I have had 3 challenges in the past 30 days alone -- I swear. Probbaly most likely because I am beginiing to abosrb my teachers style somewhat and am more eager to allow it into my life to test.

1 did not show up, the other two I put down most quickly. I put all the success to my teacher, for it is his method. I learned to just lye low. I tested what I needed to test. Poeple can say what they want, claim what they want. I'm at where I want to be right now and am progressing. I can't fight every third rate WC player who thinks he's a shoaling monk or Jet Li.

I train for real. I'm actualy training to go "pro" (UFC, Tough Man, whatever out there) in a year and a half. If you look back at some of my posts like 3 or 4 months ago, I had the same goal, but set 3 years away. I have spent the past 3 months in heavy training, and the time fame has been cut in half. I AM VERY CONFIDENT, in my master's method, for that is all it is: unbeatable principles, strong shapes, intentions.

[Ginger Fist]

Ginger fist, I do not feel a need to get my facts straight because

--becuz u r a total moron ... good anwer

Hung Mei wiping out Bak Mei ...

--it's a historical fiction denoting the changing of the guard in the hakka hand u fu(king moron & that's the whole of my comment

or the fact that I am not even a Bak Mei player. I picked up the name because at the time I was researching the history of the person and found it interesting.

--BBBBWWWAAAHHHAAAhhhaaa ... holy sheep sh*it u r a total goober ... thanx 4 sharing

I am now studying Hsing-I and Ba Gua, that's what I would consider myself.

--kewl beans ... ? family bagua?

My teacher has his own system as well, E-chuan, and I know I would roll my eyes to here of another creating there own system,

--naw ... it's kewl ... people act like every1 went brain dead in the martial art world after 'bout 1850

but I know this man and know what he is capable of --

--& as long as u r satisfied with that & he agrees to teach i say good 4 u & good 4 him

[Steven T. Richards]

Bak-Mei,

May I ask who you teacher is? I've not read many of your posts so please forgive the questions if off the mark.

I read that you mentions S.Mantis and now BaGwa/Hsing Yi.

Are you connected with the Ku brothers by any chance?

Regards,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Bak-Mei,

Thanks, I've caught up with your posts now. Understood.

The Ku's are Jook-Lum (Lee-Yin-Sing), teach only closed door, VERY good and hard presure testing fighters and also teach Ba-Gwa and Hsing Yi. Hence my initial misunderstanding.

Thanks,

Steve.

[Water Dragon]

One point. Demanding that you attack full force is actually pretty common, at least in Taiji. It has something to do with needing to receive the real energy of the attack in order to show how to deal with it. It's not unique but still, sounds like you found yourself a good teacher.

[Polaris]

I remember you talking about fighting professionally,
and I'm glad to see you back and hear that you still
want to do that. There are atleast some other TCMA
people that are interested in doing that. Problem for
you is NHB/MMA is illegal in NY, but that could change
anytime.

[TIger Hand]

Bak Mei-

Look if you don't practise bak mei don't use the name. especially if you're doing some "SECRET STYLE" found only deep in the belly of chinatown. Your confusing people here.

How did I know you were going to say "my master's challenges are behind closed doors"

So everyone who wants to open a school in chinatown has to fight your master?

If your teacher is that good at 60+ you should tell him to train Joe Frasier. Iam sure they will pay him mega $$$ for teaching him how to defy the aging process. Certainly will make more than teaching a bunch of "closed door" disciples in NYC chinatown.

Oh, don't tell me he doesn't want to dilute his system by teaching an outsider.

[Yung Apprentice]

Well fist off let me say this: If you like your style that much then more power to you! Isn;t Hsing-I internal? I'm asking because I'm thinking about training in this.Also whats your real name. So I can see you kick some ass on UFC when you enter!

[TIger Hand]

I don't know if he should enter. He can't even touch a 60+ yr old man!

What would someone who is half that age do to him. People like, Maurice Smith, Sakuraba.....

[fiercest tiger]

bak mei,

I think it all depends on the teacher and the medicine that is used, how the medicine is prepared and chi correction exercises is a must followed with chi kung or meditations.

well ykm does it like this, i have been doing iron palm since 92 full on thats everyday! i learnt the technique and proceedure back in 1986 but didnt go at it really hard, untill 1992!

Iron palm is a must i believe and its more about the recovery of your hand after a strike or an injury too. There has been times when my hand should have been broken and unusable but i had only a minor injury, so its help in many ways.

it trains focus, control, penetration, timing, breath, mindset etc so its as good for you as kicking and punching pads. also remember that you start off with a soft substance inside and work up too a hard substance!!:D

merry xmas and happy new year