Forms purpose

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'd like to get some opinions on this:

What do you think is the purpose of forms?

I ask that because I see three origins for the creation of forms.

1) A repository of techniques. There were three ways to record your techniques - writing(poems), drawing and dance (forms). Since not everyone could read and write and you still needed to know what exact move corresponded to what name or description this would probably be the most unreliable. Drawing the moves would give you a visual representation but you would lose the connecting moves. Writing and drawing together would solve that problem but what if you couldn't write or draw? Putting all the moves together in a sequence and memorizing it I think would be the most accurate solution. To teach someone your style just teach them the form. You could start with basic techniques and end with more advanced ones. Teach the form in 3 parts and you have beginner, intermediate and advanced. In this case techniques would just move from one to the other without making sense as a complete fighting sequence.

2) Fighting sequences. This would again be a repository of techniques but all in fighting sequence. In this case you would have to create many smaller forms each simulating a fighting sequence with redundant moves throught the forms. In other words, the forms would all have the same basic techniques with the addition of more advanced techniques added to the higher level forms. This is generally how I think of forms, probably because of my Kenpo and Karate background.

3) Real fight representation. This one came to mind fairly recently. Have you ever relayed the details of a fight to your friends? Could it be that some of the older forms are actually recollections of real fights? Fights that actually happened and were recreated later to remember the techniques that worked and how they worked.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious but I've never dug into history like some of you apparently have. What do you think?

[seung ga faat]

Laoshi,
Bravo, those are all good reasons and is one more: forms are taught so that your name never dies if you are the person the form is named for. Such as Yin Ching Daan Do, Yin Ching Chuen Lum,Bok Yuen (White Ape Monk) Chuet Tong......
________
R68 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/BMW_R68)
________
smoking kills (http://smokekills.net/)

[mantis108]

Form is also a good way to identify Kung Fu family; hence, quite reliable to identify lineages.

Example:

All the Taijiquan styles (Chen, Yeung, Wu, etc) will have the same Taijiquan form. That is the same structure and similar sequences in general with a few moves different. Same is true in Mantis, 1 out of 4 original/core forms (i.e. Bung Bo) must be consistent in general with a few moves different here and there.

In Kung Fu, you can tell if a person belongs to your KF family or not and which level he is at just by looking at his form.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin,
Your conclusions seem okay to me. I'll add;

-a collection of moves that follow an attack counter-attack progression from start to finish.

Although to make this meaningful the MA must contain the principle that allow the practitioner to jump from one move to almost any other. Seen in this light, a form of 40 moves has an almost uncountable number of possible permutations(can anyone do math?).

-A method of stimulating the glands. Most especially to boost the testostorone.
Scientific studies show that top speed running over short distances(like a form!) done several times can very quickly boost blood testostorone 10-15 times.

I think the ancients were in tune with their bodies to feel this. This would make forms a type of warm-up before the partner work began.

[9dragonshijin]

I think you are right on with the ancients being very in tune with their bodies. Less stressors, noise pollution, etc. Less stimulation of the pineal gland, more balanced body chemically. Possibly more O2 in the atmosphere? Less processed food and drinking sources.
Hua Lin Laoshi
I really like your third idea, that is something I never really considered. To me, that makes me look at my forms a lot differently, almost more reverently.Cool thought.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tainan Mantis
That testosterone info is interesting, haven't heard that before. On the negative side, I have read about a study that concluded that high intensity short duration (they studied high school sprinters and weight lifters) activities increased the incidence of colds. Maybe there's some additional training the ancients practiced to boost the immune system to offset the negative aspect of forms training?

[EARTH DRAGON]

Everyone has responded with excellent reasons so with that I just have A little to add...............
Forms are also practiced to learn to move with fluidity, grace and power. When practicing you learn agaility , balance and coordination. this is why you practice to learn to correct yourself................. NOT THE FORM. you see forms are like tools if some one gave you a tool and said use this, you must first understand what your "use" for that tool is! forms are not about how you fight from a certain position becuse obviously no one will fight like that , however you will know by moving your kinetic energy in seqence how you will respond!

As for weapons the same rules apply , you are not practicing weapons to know how to use them when attacked. you will never be attacked when carrying one. You will understand however weight distribution, the laws of motion and cintriffical force. again learning how YOU will react with the extention of your hand is why you train to use a weapon. in the olden days the focus was purley for protection, but since the invention of gun powder that use has changed to self understanding. for the bigger picture and the ultimate goal of any martial artist. Is to know one's self.............once you learn to know thyself is the first step to enlightenment.

[whitewhirlwhind]

What great responses!

I too was very excited by your third theory, Hua Lin Laoshi. I am much more excited by memory than by history—more residues.

Earth Dragon touched on what I want to say, but I want to take it a step further and maybe a different direction.

It is well documented that shamanism started in East Asia. A shaman had many purposes, but one was to ward (fight) off evil spirits, ghosts or demons. The martial arts were codified around 4000 years ago. It is easy to conclude that some system of fighting existed before that because there was something to be codified. So I wonder if people saw these magic-filled and enigmatic figures (pre-Doaist ascetics?) “fighting” off the evil in sacred “dances” (modern wushu) and applied them to real life situations?

I bring this up because when I do a form enough or a succession of forms enough then I can meditate to or with those forms—a tool as Earth Dragon suggests. At times, I am sure that I fought off a physical demon (One was attached to my quadriscep, and I felt it leave!) or a psychic demon attached to a memory or a memory of an experience (too many of these to list).

[SaMantis]

From my reading, I think shamanism certainly has its place in the development of martial arts. Codified MA may have worked its way from India eastward and developed into Chinese MA either before or at the same time as Buddhism. Martial arts themselves were developing well before this.

China's lion and dragon dances as well as the names of many styles obviously stem from the ancient, animalistic cultures (in which gods took the forms of animals or vice versa). Just as some American Indian tribes did (or do), the Chinese looked to the animal world for answers to problems, inspiration, etc. The story of how praying mantis was developed is a good example.

So, if you were a member of an animalistic or shamanistic culture, your tribe/village would adopt an animal -- or its spirit -- and worship it, give it gifts, take its image into battle or hang it on the village gate to drive away both evil spirits and physical attackers. The shaman would probably invent a dance based on the movements of the tribe's patron animal, and since shamans were often the tribal leaders (especially in Asia) they would create "signature" battle moves that mimicked the animal's movements. Maybe only one or two moves, along with a really cool-looking dance they would do right before the battle started, just on the off-chance that it would frighten the attackers away.

So yeah, it probably started from shamanistic tradition. (whew) Later on, Buddhist and Taoist philosophies moved in and many adherents shed animalistic beliefs. However, outside the monasteries people intermingled these philosophies with their existing religion. The animalistic tradition continued in a different vein; people didn't worship animals but still considered them powerful creatures worthy of imitation. Which leads back to ... the development of codified martial systems, forms, etc. based around the movements of animals. (double whew)


As far as fighting off physical demons -- whirlwind, I think you need to drink more water during your workout, sounds like you got REAL dehydrated there! :D

Sam
(who reads way too much National Geographic)

[chessGMwannabe]

Very interesting thread indeed. but I think there's yet another way to use forms that has yet to be discussed. I practice wing chun and one of the ways that it's forms have been explained to me is that they illustrate ideas or principles rather than showing effective techniques. for instance the first form wing chun breaks principle in one of the first moves by crossing centerline just for the sake of bringing it back into place. if you just looked at the move and did it in a fight it'd probably work ok, but it wouldn't show an understanding of wing chun or the form.
cya all later

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

chessGMwannabe
I like that thought. I can't believe that didn't come to mind considering that's pretty much how I operate. Generally what I get from forms is how to move, attack and defend. After doing enough forms I start to get the feel for what to do and move accordingly. When I fight I prefer to fight with the spirit of the style rather than trying to copy the exact moves. Especially when sparring a classmate who will know exactly what I'm doing. It's taken me awhile to get the feel for how Wah Lum moves and reacts but I'm working on it. A fellow Kenpo student once told me I fight like I'm doing a form. I didn't exactly know if it was a compliment or not but I guess I had captured the feel of Kenpo at the time. That's not to say I don't use any of the moves I'm taught, I just use them my own way and make up a few as I go.

[flem]

i can't go along with the evil-spirit thing too deep for me. when i first began forms were the techniques and you just use simple. now after 25 years i realize that a style or system is intricately designed to make the practitioner spontaneous while also developing various fitness aspects related to fighting. the rythm and speed of moves done in forms as well as the increasing complexity as one advances contribute to increased levels of ability. yes forms train the wind but not all out- they are broken up fast, slow, pause to train the wind and musculature to deal with both bursts of energy and calm periods.

boxing is simple 2 straight punches,2 hooks,2 uppercuts and their various angles, move foreward, move back, circle left and right-defend by bob and weave, slipping, and trunk swaying.
MA on the other hand works outside the boundries of sport and were designed for war. the # of techs in even the most rudimentary style still has too many techs to remember without providing a method of memorizing them- this was before the video camera when one needed to continually train in order to remember their forms for review purposes! and as was said by me in another post and by tainan(i think) here, the forms cross one another, teaching multiple uses of the same tech as one progresses- this can be seen in my earlier post on knee attack

[MightyB]

This is a pretty good thread, anyway, getting back to some things from Tainan and 9Dragons about pollution and the ancients being able to be more in tune with their bodies...

In addition to the types of pollutions that you guys listed, have any of you thought about the amount of electrical pollution that's out there? I work in television and video, so I think about it quite often, but just think about how much electronic information is passing through you right now. You got radio waves, microwaves, and all kinds of junk hitting you right now. That can't be all that good. Just something that you guys got me thinking about with this thread...

Peace,

The B

[flem]

mightyb

not tomention the computer we're all looking at! most recent explaination, and my belief also is that chi is minute electric current - our present cancer epidemic is probably caused most by what you have stated, along with a host of other illnesses. but that is what we have to deal , or more to the point- adapt to. i think chi kung definitely plays a role in balancing until our systems can catch up with the rate in which outside electric/magnetic influences increase.

[SaMantis]

on radio waves, electronic clutter, etc.:

There was a report in the paper last week that said the number of reported "ghost sightings" in Britain had dropped 50 percent in the last decade. What was interesting was that the people who did the study said cellphone use rose at the same rate that paranormal sightings dropped.

The theory was that the frequency cellphones are on disrupt the electromagnetic fields that researchers think are responsible for most paranormal events.

So radio waves, microwaves, etc. could be turning into a problem. Or the folks on the cellphone could just be so distracted that they don't notice the ghost pirate tapping them on the shoulder ... :D

Sam

[flem]

hey samantis that sounds like a movie!

[SaMantis]

Ghooooooosssssttt Pirates!!!!!!

No, no wait --

KUNG FUUUUU GHHOOOOOOOOSSSSSTTTT PIRATES!!!

:D :D :D :D :D