Chi Gong revisited

[Bak Mei]

I saw the post about people bashing Chi Gong.

My take is this: I don't care. I used to study Isshin-Ryu and HUng gar, WC and S. Mantis, did all the chi exercises I was shown and nothing. Now, with a real internal master in NYC Chinatown, it is a reality and I see its importance. Not only in energy, but proper alignement and body mechanics. The routines go thorugh the most efficient lines of the body which generates tremendous power.

I am a fighter first and foremost. I know this is an unpopular thing to say as a MA nowadays though I don't really understand why; or I do, and am sadened by it.

Anyway, those that know, know. When people say rediculous things like the internal is too soft to be useful, I laugh -- at them; because it just reveals their ignorance. Square off against a Hsing-I expert and determine if there was ANYTHING soft about that encounter. Against a Ba Gua player you will feel as if you abused, never had a chance.

So, I say this. Don't dismiss something which you haevn't tasted, or do, but you are only limiting yourself.

Chi Gong is fuuny, because it is the little things that make a difference, and it is the little things that seperate the masters from 98% of what's out there. Not many real internal masters out there, have to look long and hard. If you are in NYC or San Franscisco your odds are better.

But, I'll say this, the Iron Wire form, as much as it is claimed to be, is not internal, nor is WC. The S. Mantis is aproaching internal, but done improperly, and the business of holding in your **** in the mroning to sweat it out isdangerous, as is the caved in chest. One can bow their back without this -- just a bit harder.

My two cents.

[crumble]

"Now, with a real internal master in NYC Chinatown, it is a reality and I see its importance. Not only in energy, but proper alignement and body mechanics."

I recently had the same experience. I didn't get what chi kung did, what was any different than doing a (wushu) tai chi form... Then I was taught chi kung from someone who >knew<.

In all the reading I had done up to that point, there was a lot of woo-woo talk about meridians, energy, and chi, etc. But what chi kung does is train the core movements that appear in techniques: coiling, pushing, pulling, etc. All the joints working at once...

Really it's body mechanics. You don't waste time trying to get the thousand details of a technique correct, right off the starting line. You do the simplified and isolated chi kung movements, so you can really train those core movements. Simple and efficient.

-crumble

[Xebsball]

Personally i dont like when people say chi kung is body mechanics, cos for me its not... But it is very truth that proper body mechanics allow good chi flow.
Anyway if it works for you this way than its cool, go on with your stuff :)

[Bak Mei]

I glad to see there is someone here who understands.

My master also taught me Taiji, but is the first to say he was not the son of the master so he only knows about 80 percent of the system, he would consider many of the people in NYC claiming to be grandmasters as knowing 60 percent.

A great system. I like it alot. I only have tasted it, because my teacher is shoiwng me E-chuan, his own creation utilizing principles from all the internal, but at the core is keeping a strong basic structure based on the power from shoulder to elbow, an intight system.

But I've seen how viscious Taiji can be, rediculous. It is true fighting, not a round house followed up with a hook type of fighting. It's total fighting. Connect, read and destroy! Beautiful. The pushing angle is magnificent.

Right now I have a preference for the Hsing-I step, fits my personality well. I look at my past 23 years of training as mere preperation for the training I am doing now. I think the greatest trives I've made in theis past year with my master has been in my mind, the way I view what a fight is, the energy involved, and how to split, drill, ect, through or around it.

Nice meeting you. The best to you and your training!

Ray

[Bak Mei]

Xebsball, what do you study and with whom?

Of coarse, it is not as simple as body mechanics, but I without a douby believe that is the start. If you have a bad structure, everything esle might as well go out the window.

Look at Wing Chun, the way they fight so erect. They have a breaking point at the hip and the knee. Terrible. They say shift this and that, but, maybe with the Bowery bum on the street, but not against soemone who's been training their entire life. I'll shift with them and maintain my momentum and blow right thorugh them, taking an arm or a chin with me. Bad body mechanics! The extended pac sau too, too far from the structure, I could move it aside with one finder, how would it stop a held close drilling fist being proplled by 210lbs? Never.

I know, because I beat it on a daily basis. I used to train Wing Chun and have a lot of WC friends. They called BS on me when I started training Hsing-I/Ba Gua and I proved it to them. Won't show them though because they talk too much junk and then will incorporate it into their CW (wrongly) and that's how things get watered down.

So, breathing is HUGE, so is focus, but the body is wear it starts, extending what needs to be extended, ect. The opening, up down move of Taiji is my favorite. Builds energy, and the hitting wave motion is priceless, infinite applications.

Is there a big internal following in Brazil? Who brought it there? Interesting.

[Water Dragon]

**** Crumble, like THAT?!?!?!

You do understand how jealous I am of you right?

[jon]

"But, I'll say this, the Iron Wire form, as much as it is claimed to be, is not internal"
Carefull who you say that to!
Im pretty sure there are a LOT of HG guys including me who would disagree strongly with that statement.
I can only speak for iron wire and even then not with much authority as i havent learnt the set in question.
That is a very well known INTERNAL form in Hung Ga, yes it uses pleanty of hard movements[being a hard soft style] but its primary aim is to build chi.
If you think that high level Hung Ga practioners are all using brute strength and have no internal force then by all means keep thinking that. However be 'very' aware that a LOT of people are going to disagree strongly with you.
I also would have to say if you think people like Lam Sai Wing and Wong Fai Hung had no internal power your very very wrong...
All of the modern day masters of Hung Ga are also well known for there internal power and healing abilitys.
Im not trying to tell you what to think im just stating that posting things like that on a public forum,you might want to think twise.

[Xebsball]

I study Eagle Claw and also know some Chi Kung from iron palm training.

There is very few internal here, except for health Tai Chi, that is all over the place. For example Xing Yi and Bagua i think its only in two cities (Sao Paulo and Rio).
I really dont know who brought internal styles here first, but the first people to teach kung fu i belive are Chan Kwok Wai (northern shaolin) and Li Wing Kay (eagle claw).

[Bak Mei]

Jon, of coarse I have never crossed hands with Lam Sai Wing or Hung, but my Gung Gar is from Grank Yee, pretty much the leading authority on Hung GAr in New York's Chinatown.

I know he and his students insist it is internal, as did my sifu. And, when learning it I would tell people its a form for building internal -- though I never felt it.

Felt what? What I'm feeling now studying internal systems.

Maybe I was doing it wrong? Or maybe dynamic tension is not internal.

In fact, dynamic tension is in direct conflict with internal and, I'll go so far as to say low level gong-fu, in that if you feel your own power, you are retianing that portion of it instead of transmitting it to your foe. Not in a shooting chi out the butt way, but if you feel your strenght in your own arms you are holding back so as to feel your power instead of passing it. King of along the lines of karate guys snapping their punches to get that snap sound from their gi, to suggest speed, nit knowing they should be throwing it out with the mass of their arm and the focus should be on the shoudler to elbow part of their arr, not the elbow to wrist.

Hung Gar is a fine system. A great system with a great heritage! I do not mean to put it down in any way shape or form -- BUT IT IS NOT INTERNAL. I do not even like the external vs internal arguments, because the so called "internal schools" are very external in that they are strong as hell.

Internal to me is the subtle things. I'm sure when you look at guys doing karate, you're like, "They got it all wrong. It can't be like that, it has to be like this."

Its the same way with internal. It's no mistake that the internal masters all mastered external sytems first and progressed to what they would without doubt say a higher level. My master stduied with Yip Man in Hong Kong, was a training brother with Bruce Lee.

How many people would market the hell out of that. Yip Man, Bruce Lee! He looks down on Wing CHun as a low level art. It is very basic, good for learning the core principles of trapping and disecting lines, but WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too busy with the hands: "I'm on top (fuk sau)" "No, you can't be (taun Sau), now I'm on top (fuk sau). "O, no you're not (bong sau).

Internal would look at tan sau as a punch to your punch from below (while keeping the door closed with the other shielding hand), hitting your arm and then sliding inside, then continuing the momentum to a massive strike on your chin or collar bone -- all one motion.

Fuk sau would be the same punch from below of your attack that slid to the outside, but instead of this weak-a$$ outside to inside motion it would become a drill fist and the wedge would send your arm in and down while maintaining its force in ad up to the kill zone.

Looking at it, they are very different. The arm never extends, maintains its shape, let's you come in, and drives it power off the back leg to move you and then uses the shoulder power for the kill.

Subtle, very affective. The internal energy could never be explained here, one has to feel it for themself. But, I have never heard a Hung Gar person explain chi properly, or really claim to have felt its affects.

Maybe it is different with you. I hope so. I have no arguments with anyone or any system, just concerned with my training. I'm here to discuss and add my OPINION.

In the end, talk, or in this case, typing, is cheep. We are martial artists, and in the end there is only one way to determine who's method is superior.

One thing I liked, but now find faulty with Hung Gar, is its reliance on strength. It's a big man's system. Too reliant on opposing force, bone to bone. That is certainly not internal. Who can fight the bigger man that way? Who can fight when they are old, rely on brute force? Who is the strongets man alive? The fastest?

Not me, so I do not train for that advanatge, knowing I will not always have it. But, at 5'11" 210lbs, I do often find myself with it, but still, I fight everyone as if they are biger than me. I fight everyone the same way.

Attack their attack to be connected (keep my door closed), read them, and then fill their empty space with my power, while emptying the area they are trying to fill with their power. A lot is based on the saber, draw cut. Draw cutting plane allows to blades to hit, but one cuts back and down getting ontop while maintaing a strong shape (elbow to shoulder shaped as if chugging a beer, but elbow down, and onw the way of putting the beer down) that push cutting plane, same shape but incorprated with a forward blasting step (HSing-I chicken step), and ...

I don't want to continue. Those that study internal will know what"m talking baout. Those that don't will just nit pick it and that's not my concern. Is it really ijn our intrest to share technology?

[TjD]

so are you saying that wing chun uses dynamic tension? i really hope you arent :) mabye hung gar does... i dont know that


as to using the shoulder and rear leg to issue the power, however that is something i am familiar with

my strikes in wing chun use this power all the time

it sometimes makes me think that a punch can (or should) be more powerful that a kick if done properly

i do however know about being relaxed, and having my energy issue forth through my strike; like a direct transfer from the ground to my opponent. i've cultivated a relaxed "in the zone" feeling which makes this almost natural

it may not be chi, and it may not be internal ;) but its definately something


peace
travis