Jut Sow Mantis

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, the purpose for this one is to fish for Jut Sow information since there was some controversy about Jut Sow origins and whether it is the same as 8 Step.

Since the Mantis in Wah Lum is Jut Sow and Lee Kwan Shan learned his Mantis from the Abbot of the Wah Lum Temple is it possible that it could have originated there?

Abbot Ching Yeung was 4th generation Mantis. 2nd and 3rd are currently unknown. If he didn't create Jut Sow then where (and from who) could he have learned it? And if he created it then what PM style was it based on?

[Pong Lai]

Swi Shiou was its original name before the name was changed in Taiwan to 8 step.

Such as Tai Chi PM is recorded just about anywhere in China and Vietnam as TCPM, though in Hong Kong you will find it referred to as Yin Yang PM. In Singapore you will here Jade Ring referred to as Secret Door PM, as it is called everywhere else. Zhang Bing Dou and company altered the name of the mantis they teach to Tai Chi Plum Flower, because they added forms such as Beng Bo which the Plum Flower system of his Uncles, Lee Kuan Shan, did not possess.

There are 6 documented forms of PM:

8 step
seven star
Tai Chi
Secret Door
Plum Flower
Six Harmony

What constitutes if it is a PM system or not?? A good question would be does it consist of Tzai Yao and/or 8 elbows or not???

As far as systems having more than one name, do you call cola..coke, pop, or soda??

[Pong Lai]

Tainan Mantis or 108 might be more knowledgable and accurate than I on listing the lineages.

[mantis108]

As far as my understanding goes, Lee Kun Shan (Plum Blossom in Taiwan) who might have taught a style named Jut Sow or Shuai Sao as well(may be a miss understanding again) . However, it was also known as 7 stars in Taiwan. There came the confusion for many. Frankly, I believe that in many old masters eyes, mantis is mantis. Due to poor documentation of the system (except 7 stars lineage) a lot of the Mantis lineages have problem with the lineage tree. But to deny them as being legit is as ignorant as accepting false lineage as the real thing. Why can't Wong Long have more than one student inside or outside temple wall (if in fact he retired to a temple)? What stop people to borrow the Mantis fame without having set foot in a legit Kwoon?

I also agree with the point that forms would be a good guage to tell whether a mantis style is in fact link to the PM system that was created by Josi Wong Long. 1 or 2 forms out of 4 "original forms" would be sufficient.

Mantis108

[9dragonshijin]

Hey , Third generation praying mantis was Lee jin Sun"Lightning Hands". Have no idea about 2nd. Hope this helps. later.

[Kiasyd]

I think second generation was Sheng-hsiao Tao-jen, a Taoist monk, who learned Praying Mantis from the temple and later teached Lee Sun Jin.

-- Kiasyd

[9dragonshijin]

Lee SUN JIN
My bad

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Thanks for the info on 2nd and 3rd generation. What are the sources of this information? Guess I need to start reading more. :D

[9dragonshijin]

You're Wah Lum, right? If you are, it is in the red book. Also, I believe it is in one of the anniversary books. 3rd generation. :)

[Kiasyd]

I read this info on this text:

" THE INVENTION AND DEVELOPMENT OF NORTHERN STYLE PRAYING MANTIS SCHOOL OF CHINESE BOXING

Originally written by the late Master Wong Hon-fan; translated into English by Wong Pang-ying ".

-- Kiasyd

[EARTH DRAGON]

For all that need to know fernando has made it his lifetime goal to list all praying mantis geneology, techniques, lineage families and everthing else about mantis. Heck he even has a bio of me in my lineage of 8 step that I never wrote! I dont know how he gets his info but it is all documented and recorded fact. check out his website at http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/ I am sure all your questions will be answered.......... your freind E.D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

9dragonshijin
I've been in Wah Lum for 11 1/2 years and I don't recall ever hearing Ching Yeung's teacher. I read the Red Book years ago but don't recall it being in there. I don't own a copy so I'll have to pick one up and read it again. Funny, I was under the impression nobody knew this information. I'm also looking at the 20th anniversary book and it starts with Wong Long then skips to Ching Yeung. While 2nd and 3rd may be known in other styles they are not known in Wah Lum. Unless we can definitely link Ching Yeung to the 3rd generation of another style.

BTW, are you Wah Lum? I ask because you seem to know something nobody else in Wah Lum seems to know.

Earth Dragon
I just read the Hua Lin section of the Mantis Cave. Interesting but does he document all this? The bibliography just shows an old picture of Sifu Bob Rosen without even listing his name. He also has 2nd and 3rd generation missing.


Also, if Jut Sow is just another name for 8 Step then how is it that 8 Step started at 7th generation from Wong Long but Ching Yeung learned it at 4th generation from Wong Long? That seems to indicate that Jut Sow predates 8 Step.

[NorthernMantis]

Well the answer is simple, in my opinion.The style known as jut sow was invented by someone else who was unknown and it is not 8 step.Tainan learned both wah lum and 8 step and he says they are not the same.

So the questions that arise are...

1)When and by who was jut sow founded?
2)What makes jut sow different from the others and 7 *?
3)How was it founded?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

It looks to me like Ching Yeung's 3rd generation Sifu is the key to Jut Sow. I wonder if 3rd generation Masters listed in other styles could provide some clues. Who were their peers, sihings etc.?

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin Laoshr,
Sad to say that Ching Yueng's teacher's name is a total mystery.

Also, there is no connection with Jut Sao and a person's name. So two pieces of the puzzle are missing.

To make matters more complicated, Lee Kwan Shan was a master of Tan Tui and probably adopted what he learned of PM to his style.
So this would be different than if he had started PM as a complete beginner.

One partial solution to the puzzle is:

Since Master Lee taught Wang Lang's three forms we can look at how some of his students perform them and see what styles they are similar to.

So far, I've only seen the Wah Lum beng bu. Since it doesn't have that particular technique called BENG BU we can rule out Wah Lum having any relationship to 7*.

Unfortuneatly, no Wah Lum people under Chan Poi have come out to say they learned Wang Lang's 2nd and 3rd form.

So this research may have to include other branches of Wah Lum that bypass Chan Wan Ching.

This will prove to be very educational I'm sure.

For example:
My teacher has studied PM from several different branches that come from Jiang Hwa Long and his teacher. This provided different angles and perspectives to the same forms and exercises that would not normally have been available to someone who studied form one branch.