Childern and Kung fu training.....

[MiamiMantis]

While replying to the post about my new daughter, it made me think about childern in Kung fu. What do you think about these topics...

1. What age should they start??

2. When should they really receive a black sash or belt?

3. When should they start weapons training??

4. What should they be told about the knowledge they have??

just looking for different thoughts..

:D :) :D

[NorthernMantis]

1)4-6

2)Just to keep the tummy tight for breathing!

3)You got me there

4)Make it a game I've heard that's how man other martial artisits like Lily Lau started

[SaMantis]

Hey, MiamiMantis,
Congratulations again on the new daughter! :D :D

1. 4-6 sounds right to me, though I think the focus should be on coordinated body movement, flexibility, and just having fun.

2. I'm not a fan of belt colors ... but if I ran a karate school, I'd still give kids belt ranks, only they would be listed as Junior Belts: junior black belt, junior blue, whatever. At their age the belts are more for their parents to brag about, anyway.

3. 9-12 years old, when they have more understanding. My 5-year-old nephew started learning weapons at his TKD school; he never practiced with his foam nunchakus, just bashed his sister over the head with them.

4. Make it a game at first ... but keep telling them it's not nice to hit the other kids at school ... and lead by example.

:)
Sam

[MightyB]

I used to help teach a children's class at my school and we wanted the kids to be 6 and above, but we did have some exceptions. I think every kid has ADD. It was crazy, about all you could do was play games. They also like to hit the pads alot, but kids these days. No discipline, no respect... they don't get taught discipline at home... their parents expect you to teach them it (discipline, self control, patience, yada yada yada) ---

My advice, stay away from teaching other people's kids!

Now, my own son, that's a different story altogether. He's just about two and I have him punching and kicking, and I also have him doing the first two moves of Goon Li Kuen. After he started walking, I started to get him used to standing on my shoulders to get him ready to be the head in the southern lion dance. When they're that small, it's easy to teach.

The key is to start teaching your own kid right away but don't push him and keep it fun. Practice in front of your kid and they'll want to imitate you. And work to your kid's schedule. Keep it fun and invent games that mimic the movements that you want them to do.

Have fun,

the B

[mantis7]

good post

I trained kidsfrom age 6 and up younger and it is not good IMO.

I had a rowdy bunch but I never plyed games with them. They were all a little wild until I broke them lol ( no I didnt arm them lol)

I started theretraining with alot of stane training and punching and kicking as well as falling skills and tumbilig skills. I drilled them in alot of pieces of the forms that represente the 12 keyword formulas and 8 hard method and 12 soft method.

I used a training method called a battle line where they would line up at one end of the kwon and practice there kicks, hand and foot works skill. They wouldnt notice that by the end of class they did 500 tech each side. they thought it was fun. I also even though it wasnt part of the seven star mantis system the acrobatic movements of wushu. This they loved and they knew I wuldnt let them do it unless I was pleased with the priop class training.

Also I had them hod eachother responsible for each other. If they saw someone slacking they would make sure h orshe got back into the game. I treated them like my little brothers and sisters.

They lov to spar so I used to let them fight every class for at least a hour or half a hour.

I also allowd them to fight me with no gear on. I would either stand or be on my knees and allow then to feel wat it feels like to actually hit someone ( I know it sounds sick but the parents seems t love it) when sparring with them I would call outthe classical movements name and then they woud try and set up the attack. then I would tell them defense and I would start throwing tech at them and yes I did hit them not hard but enough to let them know they missed the block.

I would then tell them throws and they would set upa throwand actually some actually threw me down.

I would cll out chin na and they would go for the lock. I had one youngster named rocque who excelled at chin na locks by the age of 11. HE was able to apply them to all his training brothersa and sister with sparring gloves on LOL

I also got the parents to agree o let me teach there kids to fight as cose to full contact as possible with them out hurting weach other and they simply loved it. Junior was the eigning champ of the school since he excelled in throws lol but his siter used to give him a good fight she was very ood with legs.

Also I had themdo a fire line where one person started in themiddle of the class and then when i called soemones name they came to try to attempt a shuai jiao throw on the student in the middle of the class/ The one in the middle stood in the middle till someone threw him or her down.

But the thing they loved the most was who ever was the champion at the end of the week was allowed to where my black sash until he or she lost it in a challenge match. I allowed 15 min for a challenge match that can be issued at any time during the class lo I had to lower it to on a day becase challenges was being tossed everywhere but what I love was that after the challenge they would discuss where the one who lost went wrong .. I loved my kids and I miss them greatly but ahh that is life..

Sorry for te long reply I jut got a little broken hearted ol during this christmas time....

happy holidays and many blessing to you and yours..

Victor

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis7,
Thanks for the educational post. It sounds like you have come up with some very inspired and creative teaching ideas.

I taught English to children in Taiwan for 6 years and it took me years to come up with good ideas, so I can't help wonderinng how you got your ideas.

Would you please go into more detail on how you were able to get kids to hold each other responsible to each other?

[mantis7]

Well as for them keeping each other resposibile. I had each of them give a class along side me so they learn the best way possible by teaching. They also knew i didnt tolerate slacking or fooling around. There was time we fooled around and had fun but that was then. If they didnt train hard they knew i wouldnt do the fun things they liked.

As part of my training the children it wasnt all physical training it was also mental. They had to maitain a certain grade average. If not they came in and for the first hour and studied as well as if they were doing good in class and school they were alowed to train in the teen class. They loved this as they were rewarded with learning a new fist set or a weapon set. plus my kids IMO loved me. They would beg there parents to stay later on in the evening.
They came to seminars and performed at test and other events lol they looked better than the adults most of the time lol IMO.I also allowed then to create tere own tch and performancesets. they came up with some good ones with my help of course.

you see rewards and not just treating the children like clients are important. Put forth a good warm heart and treat them as adults and not children they will surprise you. Alot of people see kids just as kids but they are very perseptive and understand more that what people give them credit for.

They were all assigned certain task in the class be it sweeping the floor carrying boxes cleaning the weapons or what have you. they brought in note books to write the tech down. I had them keep a journal. I also gave hand outs. I held little tournamnts and contest during class. height on jump kick . horse stance cometition and other things.

I dont know how I came up with these ideas its just I was in the kwoon fom 10 am to 11 pm so I had alot of time to put things together. some worked some didnt.

Also I introduced using hand wraps in the class with diffrent color to represent teams. They loved that because I also introduced Thai boxing to them.

So if they wanted their team to win they had to be on point so they didnt let no one slack. I had one student who was spoiled and they road him unti his parent took him out the school but i sat down with the parents to let them know Y the other students road him but it came out in the wash the child didnt want to train. So I told the parents that he wasnt ready to train.

also lol I gave them nicknames that they had to earn Like jonathan was little tiger roque was Flying monkey lol I know this sounds chesse but it was cute to watch them to call each other by here nick names litlle junior was iron fist he loved it.

So incentive is better than having them drop for push ups. self disciple is better than giving discipline. They used to drop each other when they were talking during line up so if some one was doing something I didnt see all I would hear is DROP and I would see someone either doing push ups or sit ups lol. Now that is a teachers dream lol.


well if you need more info let me know...

Victor :D

[mantis7]

The main thing is to show them that there actions have consequences. Kids want and need dicipline and the respond well to it but you have to show them disciplining one self isnt punsihment and show them how it helps them. If I came ito class with out my full uniform they would drop me. or if i used a dirty word ( sometime I slipped LOL) they would drop meso This showed them I wasnt excluded from discipline. So in other words if they wanted to learn something new it wasnt so much the skil level as hey are still kids but they had to be competent. The had to prove to me and themselves that they deserved it. Like junior wouldnt let me teach him a new form for almost a year since he didnt have chaap chi down.


but sometimes something I teach doesnt work for all I have a very laid back and loving demenor but can be stern when I have to so they knew wen I was mad the vein in my head would pop out and they used to be like shhhhhhhhh Si hing is mad and then when we sat down for the discusion part of training they would ask me why i was mad and I would be honest with them and tell them honesty is everything with kids never lie they can tell and are like pirahanna when it comes to lie, bing a fak person and fear and lack of control lol ...


my two cents.

Victor

[mantis7]

If you want to be a sifu one day the best way to lear hw to teach is by teaching kids. Also being a good teacher is teaching children as well because a child is our gung fu future. Teaching adults is good but taching a child is better because a child will aquire good skill in there teen years and as they reach early 20 they will have skills compared to most adults. Most adults startr training in there late 20 to ealy thrities and by the time they have gained enuff skills they are in their late 30's and in there declining skills ( this doesnt mean they dnt have skills lol just they are getting older and should be traiing in diffrent things) thehy become sifus and that is great but still have t go through the stage of learning ow to teach and If it is a young man or woman in there early 20's they go through the stage and make there mistakes and by the time they are in there 30' they are skillied in tech and concepts as well as teaching method ( god willing) but at the same time rember that each person is diffrent and life is never in a straight line.

Victor

[baldmantiz]

i wish i could have gotten into this conversation sooner....

i teach the children's class at my school....and i have found that teaching someone younger than six makes it seem more like romper room...even though it is supposed to be fun....any younger and i feel like i am just babysitting and not teaching at all. a typical class would be stretching, then jumping around tossing a beanbag for a couple of minutes, then some warmups in stances with punches, then an obstacle course or something fun like that and finally things such as body coordinations would be taught. i have never taught the children weapons since i myself do not know any. i have found that the most important aspect of teaching the children is instilling a sense of focus and discipline with them. it took a while to get them to raise their hand before speaking or sitting still in seisa...but its nice when they finally respond that way...

[mantis7]

LOL I had one that used to run around I took her in at 4 but I paired her up with Maggie and she was responsible if she ran to wrangel her up. I spent two weeks with her before I decided she was to young to train lol.

had bad experienc with the obstacle course... had a kid almost break his leg ona jump plus it doest really teach the kids anythng IMO but it may work for someone else.

and sashes I have been thinking on it alot latley and I no thing Y not. A reward system keeps someone moivated espcially kids hey adults st goals for themselves and recive certifiaction for it so why not els but I would never give a sifu ship to a kid and a black belt is just that.

A balck belt for a adult doesnt mean they are ready to teach it means they are actaully just starting there training for real so figure after black use a black sash with a white band going through the center and keep the colors going until a black wiha red stripe then a red sash o wat have you but i am still working on this concept and working of a actualy working pardime for it .

I am alsoin the process o documenting all I have learned ( drills forms weapons tec teacig skills and what have you ) I am putting them inbook format. right now the firstbook is 80 ages so far with pics and charts lol I expect about 30 books lol ( i hope thats all lol) who would have thought in 21 years I would have learned so much or understood so little lol....

[mantis7]

sorry about the spelling guysand girls my keyboard cant not keep up with my fnger speed and this forum lol.

[SaMantis]

Good stuff, guys! :)

I don't teach, but I'd like to someday -- although that seems very far off right now. I think teaching kids would be the biggest challenge, as far as keeping them interested and involved.

Wah Lum keeps kids under 6 in a pee-wee class that costs less than the regular kids' programs. Si Hing Ricardo teaches it and the kids really seem to like him. I don't think they learn forms; just basics, drills and other fun stuff. The students move up into the kids' class when the instructor decides they're ready. So it's not unusual to see a 5-year-old entering the regular class, if he's well behaved, pays attention, etc.

Sam

[wushu chik]

I have two boys. They are 2 and 4.

My oldest got "The Youngest Martial Artist Award" at a tournament we went to when he was 18 months old for getting up in front of a ton of people, punched, kicked, and blocked. His uncle, uh hem, you KNOW how you are, taught him EAGLE CLAW techniques when he was just 1 year old...that was DEFINETLY INTERSTING BECAUSE HE COULD DO THEM!! He's now 4 and can spin a staff like no other 4 year old can that I have ever seen. He's been doing that since he was about 2 1/2. He was in his 1st tournament at 3, and sparred a 6 year old. He won the first match, and got bored in the second!

My youngest who's 2 is starting to do forms, as well as sparring like his older brother. He's not into the weapons yet (unless you count broadswords bigger than him). He's doing great!! Doesn't have the skill of the older one, but DEFINETLY has more focus!

So, to answer your questions.......

1. What age should they start?? - When they can show that they are genuinely intersted and ready.

2. When should they really receive a black sash or belt? I don't think ANYONE should get a black sash or belt until they are fully aware what it means....and in my opinion....most 10-16 year olds CAN NOT fully comprehend what the honor and "requirements" are for a black belt.

3. When should they start weapons training?? - When the can show that they are ready to do it!

4. What should they be told about the knowledge they have?? -
That it's not to be used to hurt people. They should use it for working out, and if they NEED to use it like they are being picked on, or somebody is trying to hurt them!!!

Just my opinion....hope it helps!

[mantis7]

Wushu chik that is great.. We call those martial Prodigy. Children that can perofrm like that is a blessed event. But you will run into walls with them like you said he was bored they tend to get bored realy quick and when they hit that wall were there natural ability stops and they have to depend on hard training most usually quit or dont go past that level but be soft woth them but stern and watch them blossom it is a beautiful thing.

[Pong Lai]

Great suggestions!

We attempt to maintain a fun environment for the kids, emphasizing on developing strength, technique, and "interest"

If they are naturally talented and / or express a sincere interest, we place them along with the big guys class, no matter the age.
Watch how fast they develop then , being seperated from the non serious or part time kids whom tend to hold their potential back.

[baldmantiz]

i am also interested...has anyone had kids graduate up to the adult class....what i mean is have you been able to keep their interests up enough for them to continue on for years?

[Tainan Mantis]

I haven't, but let me tell you a good story.

When I came to Taiwan in 1989 one of my kung fu brothers had a small class with one assistant.
He has had a lot of trouble trying to promote kung fu for children over the years.
One thing he did was to convince the principals of several elementary schools to allow him to have kung fu clubs on campus after school.
From one school to two etc.

After all these years he has about 10 hard core coaches plus a multitude of lesser ones who each go to the different schools teaching kung fu.
Last time I asked him he had 500 students, but most classes have between 10-20 kids.

He got me a job teaching kung fu at Tainan's Boy's First High School. Several of his students come to attend class with me there. If their kung fu looks good enough they can also get a part time job as an instructor. This gives them some extra motivation to be better.

[CrushingFist]

i've always heard, this kids only 3 and he does htis and this ones 4 and he does that. dun mean a thing.
you should probably start kids out around 3-4 ideally.
DON'T teach them forms. if you really want the kids good, have them do basics for 2 years. Spend another year learning a simple form that works on power from the waist and footwork such as gong lek kuen / gong li quan i reccomend that form to anyone, Northern or Southern. After about 3 years they should be pretty good, then start teaching them more forms, and i guess the weapons part is all up to you, when you think the kid is ready, 9 or 10 is usually a good age.

People rush too much. Don't rush to teach your kid the whole system in a week. Spend time on basics. Good basics=good kung fu
bad basics=bad kung fu. I don't know how to emphasize that enough...

Keeping a kids' intrest is probably the hardest part. The kid has to naturally want to do it to an extent. Try to explain to them that they can do things other kids can't, make them feel good about it. Training with them is good, but also, make them have a "healthy fear". When i train kids, they know if they mess up i might yell or smack them durring training time, but outside of training time, be friendly to an extent, don't make them overly afraid but don't make them overly comfortable.
I've found this is the best way to keep a kid focused in class.


make sure they realize what they know is not a toy either, make sure they know to never use it unless it's needed. and if they do use it to pick on someone, well, have them spar you and show them how it feels to get the crap beaten out of you by someone with such an advantage. Don't let the kid grow up as a bully.

[mantis7]

Crushing fist Says:
Training with them is good, but also, make them have a "healthy fear". When I train kids, they know if they mess up I might yell or smack them during training time, but outside of training time, be friendly to an extent, don't make them overly afraid but don't make them overly comfortable.
I've found this is the best way to keep a kid focused in class.

First off to this my brother you are a fuc(king have no rights teaching children if you believe in this. When you teach children this way you get them to fear you there is no such thing a health fear plain and simple. If I was a parent of one of the kids in your class brother I would give you one dose of health PAIN.
Believe me I train kids hard and they would walk off the edge of a cliff if told them it was safe. TRUST will always outlast FEAR. My kids stayed foucus in training out of respect for me and for themselves I suggest you reevaluate your teaching methods.


Make sure they realize what they know is not a toy either, make sure they know to never use it unless it's needed. And if they do use it to pick on someone, well, have them spar you and show them how it feels to get the crap beaten out of you by someone with such an advantage. Don't let the kid grow up as a bully

Make sure they dont grow up a bully is a valid point but you getting involved by doing the beating mmmm is not the right solution. If it was a teen I might agree but a child no. I have gone to a many kids classes on behalf of many of my friends in the New York area and have seen your type of teaching and I have walked on many a dojo floor or Kwoon floor and pulled the child out of the class and found a better place for them to train. I only had one teacher try to stop me and I showed him that might is ubjectale.Just because you can put far in the hearts of a child doesnt mean you can put fear in a grown mans heart. But what made me happy was a few actually asked how would I teach children and some still use my Ideas to this day. If you would like some help in teaching your kids class and have them learn to respect you as well as there selves. Oh I forgot to mention fear in lass causes a high level of turnover and decreased skill so as not to look bad when they do mess up (if they look bad in skill ad they mess up they wont draw your attention they believe because they already dot look good)




You make a lot of valid points but in a way that makes me see you have no child psychological background or knowledge in training children. Children are very susceptible to influences.

First off in any of the gung fu system you have several sets that teaches you the basic of system. The forms were designed that way. Now the trick is to break the forms down into here separate roads. Treat Gong Li kune (great form by the by but very general I love The form) Break it down into its separate roads and teach it a so. But since is a jing mo form it doesn't teach the mantis flavor. I do use it but at the same time I teach a few other forms and all during form training I couple basis from the day the step into the school to the day they leave the school. Basic should be drilled all the time even at an advanced level because no matter how long you train your fighting skill is always built on the basics regardless of what level of training you are at. Forgetting this is like forgetting to check the foundation of your building every year or so. I practice my basics along side of my advance tech everyday. But hey tats just me.

crushingfist says
People rush too much. Don't rush to teach your kid the whole system in a week. Spend time on basics. Good basics=good kung fu
bad basics=bad kung fu. I don't know how to emphasize that enough...
This is a valid point big time but that is the lack of teaching skill and the teachers is usually a commercial one or doesn't know better it takes some people longer than others to figure this out.


Broter I hope you learn a thing or to i your martial jounrney and develop a some kind of decent wy ofteaching children but in like in most cases this is my own opinion and I guess what works for you doesnt in my case work for me. I just hope and pray I am not asked to check out your school and they way you teach kids because I would not hesitate t walk on to your floor and tak a child out of the class. :D This isnt a threat just the truth...

well all my two cents,

[baldmantiz]

one of the hardest things about teaching children the basics is that they could lose interest fast...(a bunch of you guys emphasized this so im sorry if im just repeating)...usually though the beginning workouts are basics such as punches....endurance stances...etc

[wushu chik]

I didn't "teach" my boys anything. They learn by watching everyone else. They are good at what they do.....whether it be forms, or weapons, or sparring, or just screwing around...they are good. It helps when they grow up around it constantly, and then they just pick it up. But it's on their terms! You can't force a kid to do anything they don't want to do, especially when it comes to a sport or something like that.

The younger they are when you start them, the more into it they will be when they are older, because it becomes a way of life for them!!

Just my opinion!

~Wen~