Shaolin view on WAR

[reemul]

A late night RANT

As I train under my instructor our group has formed a pretty tight bond. However a difference of oppinion will always remain relative to our individuality.

Regarding Bin Ladin and the " War on Terrorism" I have supported action and have voiced my oppinion of even more drastic retaliation.

My teacher holds true to the mohist philosophy of "Universal Love" (love everyone as though they are your family...). His only suggestion is that we just try and pass on this type of thinking, and will help to transform the world for the better.

Though I can see that if everyone thought in this manner the world would be a more peacful place, the reality is the same for any other philosophy or religion. Not everyone is going to buy into it. To me, the likes of Bin Ladin could care less to anything you or I have to say regardless of the logic. I believe in dealing with him and his kind, diplomacy is lost.

Some people were on the news today protesting the bombings today, but when asked for an alternative to war, the protesters had no response, other than diplomacy. My question is how does diplomacy work against someone who is not willing to listen to you unless you are willing to submit to his will. I am not willing to submit to Bin Ladin and it is doubful that anyone in the U.S. is even those protesting. So what now.

I think peace is a good thing.
I also think it is a good thing that people like me are willing take action to protect those who are too ignorant to protect themselves.

Our country was raped on 911 and we are in the process of finding the rapist. I feel no guilt in being american, and I am not going to be made to feel guilty of being american. The social equivilant of this is telling a woman who was raped that it was her fault for walking down an alley or wearing revealing clothing.
Fu<K that!

Our planet is nowhere near seeing eye to eye locally or globally. So recognize hostility and answer it accordingly.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'm with you.

Despite what our media portrays we have many countries whom are making nice to us right now that are activly working to destroy us as a 'world power.'

F@ck them. I could care less about being a world power, but it is a foolish mistake to wake up a sleeping Eagle.

I side with reemul.

Personally, I don't think it's the role of a good Buddhist to allow a cancer like Bin Laden to eat away at innocent lives.

In my practice of life, I don't preach peace when the peaceful and innocent are being unjustly attacked. I roll up my sleeves and go to bat for them - if it's possible for me to do so.

I actually had one guy (not American, but German) tell me that my kung fu was "evil" and that I would've been wrong to attack the terrorists on the plane.

I'll say this: if MY plane ever gets hijacked, I'm going to attack since I'll probably die anyway.

And I will do so without remorse whatsoever - such would be my Buddhist duty to preserve the lives of others.

[MonkeySlap Too]

What the h#ll kind of German was that?

[Yung Apprentice]

I thought this would go good with this discussion


Subject: Higher Education


What to do if you happen upon a peace rally by stupid naive
hemp-shirt-wearing idiots, to teach them why force is sometimes needed:

1) Approach the lead idiot talking about "peace" and saying there should
be, "no retaliation."

2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would
just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should
not cause more violence."

5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

6) When he starts to get back up, point out that it would be a mistake to
fight back and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would,
"be awful and he should not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional
violence.
8) Help him back to his feet.

9) Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 9 until they understand that sometimes it is
necessary to punch back.

[reemul]

EXCELLENT!!!

[jun_erh]

For some reason, I recently bought a book of writings from The Nation. I think since I graduated college my brain has been more or less dead and felt like I actually wanted to learn!!?? Anyway, there was an article in it, maybe I'll post the quote sometime, but it was about an these anarchists who were on trial for throwing bombs at a riot nd it killed a bunch of cops. The author argues for the death penalty saying "It is better if they become a martyr for thousands, than an incentive for a few imitators". That is, if you let them live, others will do the same thing. At least if you kill them, you are letting the next person know they will get the same thing. Hope I'm not overexplaining here.
Also,
1. I think there is a "silent majority" around the world who are with us and just don't want to say. I don't think people will spit at americans and call them murderers for this.
2. You can't always be the good guy. That's what it's all about I think. Look at the Dalai Lama, he preached peace and lost his country.

[oldmonkey]

If one considers reincarnation or truly believes that life is everlasting, it may be difficult to indulge in revenge... only to perpetuate the karmic cycle of violence.

I believe that those we encounter in this life may be encountered in the next.

It's the innocent bystanders that bother me the most, the children who suffer because of the actions of misguided militants...

Martial Arts can help us redirect our anger by learning how to control it. As paradoxical as it may seem, the martial arts may be one of the best ways we can promote peace on a personal level.

Whatever we do, we can be sure that our actions will resonate in the world around us.

[Yung Apprentice]

I don't want to bring my religous beliefs, and my views that go along with it up on here. But I will say this: Sometimes revenge is the best self defense.




Although violence isn't sometimes necessary, there are times where you have to just cut the bull**** and stand up and defend you and others around you. You can't just blow things off by thinking they will get theirs.

[oldmonkey]

Perhaps "you" can't, but to believe that you can't or that others can't may only become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I doubt that I could always turn the other cheek, but that does not mean that I don't admire the hell out of someone who has the courage to do it...not to prove they have big egos, but in a situation where other people may suffer the consequences of their actions, and they consider the greater good.

Consider the possiblity that you CAN. You just might surprise yourself, and change the world for the better in the process.

[reemul]

Here is the thing,

If we do nothing, they do it again. Turning the other cheek just sets them up for another more devastating run at us.

Like I said, the world as a whole, let alone our own country, do not think in the same manner or possess the same values. Our words are lost on some, and some words are lost on us. This discrepancy leads us to clash at times and at these times distasteful as it may be violence serves for self preservation.

[Aramus]

It isn't revenge. We are simply returning the violence back upon. them. We are not accepting the violence the terroist have given us so we are returning it in kind.

I don't see the US and others as striking out in vengence. I see it as more controlling future acts of violence against us and others. Remember, some people are trying to regain their country from tyrants and unjust rulers. Who takes over and how they take over will make all the difference.

I have the unfortunate belief that some people are not redeemable. Bin Laden is one of those unredeemable people. If you believe that in reincarnation, let's return him to the cycle. If you don't, let's take him out of the gene pool.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace.

[Yung Apprentice]

Old Monkey. What would you do, if someone who didn't like you would shoot one of your family members everyday? Would you just simply turn your cheek? How long would it take you to realize, that you have to take this guy out? After one relatives death? Two? Three?Five? Just a hypothetical question. But my point is, if you know someone is going to do it again, or someone else might follow in suit, don't you think it's time to take action?

[oldmonkey]

Yung,

"What if..." is exactly my point...I'm really glad you framed your question that way.(Read sincerity, not sarcasm.)

The words "what if" presuppose a reality that does not exist, it's only in our imagination. By asking me to imagine a senseless act of violence, it may be that I begin to partipicate in the creation of those or similar conditions...thus the self-fulfilling prophecy. (i.e. if I seek it, I will find it...)

The "what if..." game (as I like to call it) in this case appears to be prompted by fear.
If we want to play "what if..." let's imagine something wonderful instead of something horrible.
Let us not play into the hand of fear. That is the trap of "terrorists." We will not defeat our enemies by killing them...they have already committed themselves to death. However, we may 'defeat' them by transforming them.

I feel terribly for the survivors, those who lost their loved ones. In our zeal to "DO SOMETHING" we have responded in many wonderful ways. But I believe that no amount of vengeance will return their loved ones or ease their suffering...I'll stop there...I will not speak for them, only they can do that.

Here's a wacky thought: Let's adopt the children of Afghanistan made orphans by the war and raise them to be good Muslims....talk about changing the world...

[reemul]

Thats all great old monkey.....

however I don't support the forcing or pushing of any religion. Spirituality, yes.

But all this goodness does not answer the question of what to do about the terrorist themselves. The ones that don't want to hear anything we have to say. The ones that serve no purpose other than to kill us.

I'm not harping on the evil, just the reality that is.

[Silumkid]

OK, all this philosphical blah-de-blah is great. But let's remember one simple thing...September 11th was not a "what if". It wasn't a drill. It wasn't practice for reality.

If the terrorist organizations are so ready to have their souls released from their bodies, I'm more than happy to give them what they want.

The children of Afghanistan are going to be far better off after we are finsihed over there then they have been in quite some time. Here's a news flash...many Afghans are celebrating the fall of the Taliban! I personally know some Afghans and Persians here who left their native countries specifically because of all the ridiculous religious garbage groups such as the Taliban and Fundamentalist Islam tried to force them into. They support the war effort and have become proud Americans. Bless them and the innocents.

Let the terrorists and the hate-mongers rot.

[oldmonkey]

I suppose the same way we treat other criminals.
(Or mean preschoolers for that matter.)

Take away their dangerous toys.

Isolate them from the group so they can't hurt anyone else.

Explore ways to reform their behavior. Help them to empathize with the victims.

Or worse, subject them to another one of my sermons! ....a fate worse than death!

[Yung Apprentice]

But I didn't say "what if" in that that whole sentence. I said"what would you do" and you failed to answer. You focused on a fragment of my question in order to avoid it. A question that could easily be reality. I've had similar 'real life situations" in which I would not like to discuss. It's easy for one to say we should turn the other cheek, but then again YOU didn't lose anyone in 9/11. At first I thought the same thing. Turn the other cheek. But then I tried to put myself in their(the families who lost someone)situation. Even though I'm not in their position, If we don't nip this in the bud I very well could be. If you don't think this would happen take a look at some of the european countries. Like England. They have terrorist attacks seems like monthly. There not as high profile but they happen . England tried to turn the other cheek once and guess what happened, they were still being attacked. Turning the other cheek can be thought of as a weakness. It may not be, but to terrorists it is. And they will try to expose it.

[richard sloan]

...the famous master Jesus Christ.

What does Jesus mean?

I believe the universe is built on logic. All things exist within this logical construct and so no master can truly mean anything which is illogical. The bottom line is everything is made of everything and there is no duality. But there are different things of the same essence.

What am I getting at? Am I just reciting what I read in a fortune cookie or is there something else.

Well, I believe that Christ has set up an equation. How many times are we to forgive those who offend us? That is the question he was asked. His reply was that they should be forgiven in multiples. Unfortunatley few delve below the surface of their great teachers. If there is no one left to forgive after the offense is committed then the equation breaks down and can not be fullfilled. If I am dead, how do I forgive the sin which was the instrument of my death. What is meant by offense. This is why there are always contradictions in spirituality. A time to love, die, and kill. Yet love thy neaighbor as thyself. All true.

In this matter, it is clear that these men have no inclination whatsoever to enter into the forgiveness arrangement which Christ speaks of. If we sacrifice ourselves what will the result be. Will it change their hearts. In this case, it would seem the answer is no, since many have died at their hands (Cole) and our cheeks were turned. Since we must love them as ourselves, if we were beyond our ability to live within this respectful dynamic, I would imagine we would wish to be given another chance. Next time. It is also clear that their methodology is consistently being upgraded. It seems clear that their next attack if not stopped, will be even more vicious. It seems clear that their next step will be something nuclear. It would have been if they could have developed the capability. Each of their attacks has been to the apex of their ability.

I do not personally believe that the many people who are talking about peace truly understand what happened on 9/11. It is easy to say things like 'they' died. We must realize that these crimes were perpetrated against US. Me. You.

My own master has stated that sometimes doing nothing accomplishes nothing. His take on this situation is vastly different from that of the Dalai Lama's. Personally, I agree with Shi Yan Ming.

-rs

[Yung Apprentice]

D A M N I T!!!! I knew it would happen eventually. But please guys lets not turn this into a religious debate. Because this discussion has to deal with more about morals than anything else. Richard Sloan i like the last two paragraphs you typed.

[Royal Dragon]

This KILLS ME!!!

"Let us not play into the hand of fear. That is the trap of "terrorists." We will not defeat our enemies by killing them...they have already committed themselves to death. However, we may 'defeat' them by transforming them."

What the helll does THIS mean? The old minkey also made a reference to reabilitating them like we do criminals here??

I got NEWS for you, we don't reabilitate criminals in this country, we TRAIN them to be bigger BADDER criminals!!

My fiannce's broher just got released from jail this past few months. What was he in for you ask? MURDER!! What di he do in jail? was he reabilitated?? NO, he got a bucnh of college degrees, spent 3-4 hours a day working on his speed strength power and endurance, so when e got out he'd be the baddest bad guy around. OH, also he was DEALING DRUGS FROM JAIL!!!!!
What is he doing now you ask? Is he useing his degrees to live a better life?

Nope, he's ot gang banging, dealing drugs. fighting hurting and maiming others. Same as before he went in, but now hes STRONG, FAST and meaner. He seasoned fighter from all the confrontations he had in jail. He had a free lunch and a free roof over his head, surrounded by the types he's most comfortable with OTHER CRIMINALS.

Did we do any good by NOT killing him for the murder he commited??
Nope, we just rewarded him with a long vacation and place to train, hone his skills and improve his social contats with the rest of his underorld. AND we fed him and clothed him too boot!!! Heck if we left him on the outside, at lest he would have had to strugle a bit more to surrvive!!!
What about the people he's already hurt since his relese? We could have prevented that by killing him right off for the murder he commmited. What about his "next" killing? If we saw him in the process, should we just let him kill so our hands are not bloodied? and let an innocent die? ro should we kill the eivilto harm the innocent? Most of us would kill him in the course of protecting the innocent. BUT, If he had been killed BEFORE for his LAST frigging murder, his next victem would not be in danger, let alone condemmed to die.

Don't tell me he won't Kill again, he got away with it last time, even got free housing food and cloths for over TEN years out of the deal, AND he had a drug dealers income during the whole time to boot. What's his motivaion to stop? Why should he change when he knows the worst that will happen is free housing, food, clothing and getting to see all his friends on a daily basis again?

Face it "Old Monkey" some people are pure evil, and need to be disposed of. They can't change any more than you or I could be *trained* to enjoy commiting those types of attrocitys. You can't change a man's nature, he's born with it. You can only do so much, and then only when they are young, under 10.

If you think that it's possible to "rehabilitate" theses types, then your blind. -Re "able" itate- means the were "able" at one time. This is NOT the case, these types are evil. They were born that way. They were NEVRE good to begin with. There's nothing there to work with.

Just kill them and get it over with, it's the only way to stop the cycle and protect the innocent. If you don't, your allowing evil to thrive and ineffect YOUR repsonsible for the deaths they cause becaue YOU are the one that allows them to live.

[oldmonkey]

Royal Dragon:

Good and evil muddy the pure mountain stream.


Richard Sloan:

You might enjoy reading "The Zen Teachings of Jesus." My first impression of the title was that it was fluff...I was wrong, it's a very thoughtful, intelligent taoist/zen perspective.

[Royal Dragon]

You said

"Good and evil muddy the pure mountain stream. "

Ok, but do you know WHY?

I'll be kind enough to tell you.

Good and Evil are like two fish in the stream.



Evil by it's very nature MUST destroy Good. It cannot stop doing this THAT'S why it's called evil. Then when all Good is gone, it turns on itself until it too is gone and the world is nothing but barren rock, and empty streams, dead and lifeless. It will not stop it will not rest, it is relentless, and it is tireless in it's persute of destruction.

As soon as it sees Good swimmig in the stream it attacks. The ensuing battle kicks up mud from the bottom and soon the water is not clear, but clouded, muddy and creating those like you, and your "lets rehabilitate them" mind sett. but the good fish KNOWS it must fight the evil if it is to survive, and it also knows it MUST win by destroying the evil fish. It does not matter that the onlookers don't understand because they can not see through the muddy water.

It also knows that if it does not win, evil will prevail and go on to kill more good fish. So it fights hardder and hardder stirring up more and more mud until it starts to muddy not only the stream, but minds like yours who are looking on. It's not until the Good fish wins and kills the evil, that the stream clears and all is peaceful and clear again. If the evil fish had not initiated the fight, the Good fish would not have to defend itself, but the evil fish cannot help itself....................because it is evil, that is it's nature it cannot change and even if it could, it WOULD NOT change. Especially if the Good fish wants it too.

Evil is not stupid, when it engages in life or death wars on Good, it does not expect to come out unscathed. it does however expect to destroy Good. And it will come, and come, and come, and come, until it is either eliminated or sucsessful in it's goal.

If we donot destroy it, our inaction will allow death and destruction, pain and misery, hurt, betrayal and sadness 1000 fold beyond the killing of just the one evil person.

With just a single death one evil is eliminated, but we have just prevented evil on a much greater scale than if we had done nothing and allowed that one to live. This is because it is no longer able to continue it's work, we have saved countless lives by preventing the evil from accomplishing it's goal. In that light, killing is Good and NOT killing is promoting evil.

If evil did nothing, it would have the right to live, but when it comes and threatens ME and MY family and MY country, then it has signed all rights to it's life to me, and "I" chose whether to allow it's existence. If I then choose to allow it, I am as guilty of it's acts as it is. It's my duty to myself, my family and my country to destroy evil's attempts to eliminate me.


We should returne whatever evil presents to us, and if evil dies in the process, then that is Good.


Feeling sorry for evil and sympathysing with it is suicidal, and the reason why so many murders occur in this country. if we had only Killed those murderers when we had the chance think of how many innocent victems would still be here making positive contrabutions to society? Think of the sorrow we could have prevented/ the pain the loss of loved one's. Think of the fathers that would be here for thier children, thier wives, thier brothers and sisters.

Think of the Christmass we could have saved by not allowing a murder to kill an innocent teenaged girl. Think of the pain we could have saved her parents, friends aunts and uncles, even her teachers (my mother was the science teacher of this perticular victem, cryed for days over her death).

Instead, we took her life, we took her family, her feinds and her future. Lets not fool ourselfes here, we took her children, her husband her home her future job, her income for her entire LIFE.

Think about it, If she made $50,000 a year, for 40 years, she would have made 20 million in her life time. we took that too, by letting a murder go free, after supporing him, feeding him and sheltering him AND allowing him to TRAIN and hone his skill, all the time educating him and rewarding him for the pain misery, DEATH and heartache he brings to the world.

Think of the mother who lost her chld. Think now that her child is missing and not heard from. Think how frantic she must be, day fer day after day. Years go by, and still evertime the phone rings she hopes it's her little girl. Or the police with the good news. think of the night meres she has of her son dead in the woods, alone and no one to even find his shallow grave. think of the pain the toutrure his family must feel knowing "something" bad must have happened to him, but never knowing. YEARS go by, then decades go by, his mother is in old age, having not seen her son or daughter since thier mysterious dissapearanceand she still crys on thier birthday. All could have been prevented if we hav just killed a murdere the first time he killed. But we didn't did we. We "Reabilitated" them because we "Think" we are being humane and "Enlightened".

In reality, we are denining the truth, and CAUSEING more than we prevent. When we let a killer go free, we are becomming Killers ourselves by allowing him to kill again and again and agian.

Do we do anything to protect his victems from him? No, instead we enable evil, allow them to kill us over and over agian. We catch them "Reabilitate" them, let them go to kill us again and again. THEN we wine that our streets are not safe and our homes are insecure, when we our selves give evil it's power by allowing it to live.

The death penalty is NOT a deturant, it's disposal, badly needed disposal.

The terrorists in this world are PURE evil, to the point that they twist the doctrin of good to justify thier actions. If we donot kill them, they wiil rise up and kill us again and agian and again.

Killing them is the ONLY way to stop the killing and will in the end save countless lives. If we don't kill them they will kill as much as they can and bring pain and misery to the world, untill even you (if you live long enough to see it) will agree with this view.


Royal Dragon

[reemul]

To Oldmonkey,

A man stands in front of you pointing a gun at your head and in the other hand he has a knife. He isn't listening to anything you have to say. and within 5 seconds he is going to pull the trigger AND KILL YOU.

What do you do?

spare me the blow by blow as if it would go down like that. Would you result to violence to save your life?

[Yung Apprentice]

I already tried to ask him a hypothetical question and he dodged it. He even quoted me wrongly in saying, that I asked him a " WHAT IF QUESTION" when I had actually asked him " WHAT WOULD YOU DO"? He'll find a way to dodge this question.

[Radhnoti]

I don't really believe in good and evil, just differing perspectives. Having said that, I do believe in self-defense and the right of a society to protect it's citizenry. We should hunt down the terrorists and kill them to protect ourselves and our children, it's that simple for me.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm just going to say this to Radhnoti:

Yup.

[Radhnoti]

I don't recall saying that we disagree RD, or were you referring to Old Monkey? He probably understands what your saying as well, he's just coming from a different perspective.

[oldmonkey]

Yes, Rad, that's a fair and objective assessment.

I can fully appreciate Royal Dragon's position and understand his sentiments; however, the problem with his argument becomes crystal clear when someone else judges HIM to be evil...

...by merely his color, race, creed, national origin, or even his opinion, someone else determines (judges) him to be evil by their own narrow standards.

(For example, America has been labeled by some people in the world as "the Great Satan." I don't agree with them, but it's my misfortune if they decide to war on what THEY define as evil.)

The second problem with his argument arises
when he discovers evil within himself...this is when hell really breaks loose because he now is at war with himself. Thank goodness for the philosophy of salvation and forgiveness of sins, should this occur. Also thank goodness for a Compassionate One whose love is unconditional.


A final note: It seems that when we discuss war, we inevitably must discuss religion, society's expression of ethics and morality. I've heard it said there will not be peace in the world until there is peace among the world religions. I believe that includes anyone who sees themselves on a path of spiritual growth.

I personally believe that there is a growing consciousness that is a part of our human destiny.
We may expect to find ourselves challenged by world events in the coming century, and it will take an open heart and an open mind to meet those challenges. It may also take great moral courage to do so.

I hope our Martial Arts discipline will provide the mental toughness we will need to meet those challenges.

[Royal Dragon]

The second problem with his argument arises
when he discovers evil within himself...this is when hell really breaks loose because he now is at war with himself. Thank goodness for the philosophy of salvation and forgiveness of sins, should this occur. Also thank goodness for a Compassionate One whose love is unconditional.


This is easy to answer, KILL IT!!! Evil is the great imbalance in the universal Chi. If you find it within yourself, it must be destroyed before it spreads.

I have seen this with drug addicts that finnaly wake up and realise they have a problem and check into a drug rehab center.

As far as relativisum goes, ther are certain things almost universally considered evil, like murder, rape and child explotation. Even the ones who promote this behavior admit it is evil. They just don't see the need to kill themselfes over it because they ARE evil, and thier sense of self presevation forbids it.

[Royal Dragon]

actually, i was dissagreeing with Old Monkey. I did such a long drawn out explanation with such over kill, that I fiugred a super simpl answer to someone I agreed with would be a humrus compesation for that.

So just laugh, and make me feel like I'm actually funny, OK?

RD

[Yung Apprentice]

I told you he wouldn't answer your question!!!!!

[oldmonkey]

You're catching on, Yung. Besides, Reemul appears to take pride in being a 'realist' and because I respect that, I don't want to lead him away from that position by indulging him in an imaginary "what if" game.

I've been in real fights for my life, so I don't need to pretend. If any redneck with a shotgun can take you out, it puts our kung fu into perspective.
They figured that out a hundred years ago during the Boxer Rebellion! Clearly violence is not our long term, primary benefit.

One point I wish to clarify about the interpretation of:

"Good and evil muddy the pure mountain stream."

It addresses the very nature of dualism.
Taiji philosophy eliminates dualism. The universe is you. This is a realization that must be experienced to be understood.

Remuul, perhaps your teacher has experienced this realization, which might explain his position.

I've enjoyed sharing my views with you all, and I'm VERY glad you started this thread. It clearly demonstrates this is a very important issue for all of us in the martial arts, and is an important part of the process. Thank you all, and have a very happy new year.

[Yung Apprentice]

You haven't lost your compsure!

[reemul]

People like you are alive because people like me step in and protect you from unwillingness to protect yourself. I've seen it all too often.

911 wasn't a what if, and I believe more would have occured had we no retaliated.

I don't view the world in polars or a duality mode, I see it as ever changing. What is right for one moment is not necessarrily right for another. You have to ride the waves of change. Humanity is not that complicated.

To answer my own question. I would have killed my attacker, or tried to. If he is intent on killing me and I don't want to die, my options are limited.

To be honest if it weren't for people like me, people like old monkey would have been overun, enslaved or dead. What would come of your teachings then. It's not that I can't except peace, just that not everyone is peaceful.

[Yung Apprentice]

They train so that they don't have to use it..............EVER!!!!!!!

[Cody]

Right, Yung Apprentice. You train to use it, to know when to use it -- and with as much skill as you can so that damage is not inflicted unless necessary.

I have been struggling with the concepts of vengeance and self defense. Believe in self defense, including use of lethal force. Yet, to perform this with feelings of vengeance bothers me somehow. If one carries out military acts with the intent of containing or destroying the potential for further violence against a population, especially when threats and attempts at harm continue, I think that is necessary. This is self defense. I understand that there are strong feelings. I spent most of my life in NY. 9/11 has affected me terribly. Yet, I would think that a battle cry that includes any notion of getting even is not good for the heart. Though, before the cry goes out, a good vent is necessary for many. It was for me.

What I have said above has no basis in religious belief. I have none, having labelled myself on another board as an atheist and iconoclast. It's a feeling, and that is my way.

As far as good and evil go. Those are absolutes, and I think that dealing in absolutes for me is unreasonable as they are describable, having many descriptions, but undefinable, as the essence is not to be had in this way. One or two or many, apparent duality which is really a unity. This is not something I think about; for me it is a matter of mindset only and I find either restrictive. That is the way I live, as a relatively free thinker. Not something that is open for discussion with me right now. I think everyone should think and feel as they will and not try to convert minds with beliefs presented as facts. I've had all I can take of that from another website. It's like, let me out of that discussion.

I saw the phrase "pure evil" in a post here. That's pretty potent. I think it is hard to determine whether a person who does something really bad is truly evil as in pure evil. I also don't think that, at this point at least (maybe never), evil can be destroyed, only those who carry it out. I think Hitler was evil and I think the person who killed Polly Klass was. I knew a serial killer once. He did horrible things, but I don't see him as evil, only very sick.

Why am I bringing this up? Well, the whole question of rehabilitation of the bad guys is an interesting one. If some undefinable evil has become part of the spirit of a human being, such that it is the very fabric and is not resisted in any way, as there is nothing left, or never was anything to begin with, to resist, then I would find it possible to destroy such a person and to be able to live with myself after. I don't see saving that person as an option.

It's the grey areas that bother me. The what if the person is ill, or programmed professionally via indoctrination, or conditioned just by living in certain environs and being taught to do and feel certain things that are chronically hurtful to others? It's a fundamental question of what are we, the essence. We have DNA, and are conditioned from birth (for instance, how a mom responds to infant can cause brain chemistry changes which can have long range effects on emotional responses), and then we learn via language. I might not believe in the divine or in the truth of any particular philosophy, but I do believe that the spiritual is separate and yet joined with mind. The nature of this, in my opinion is part of MA training.

So, if someone attacks me and I feel at risk, truly so, my feeling is defend, period, without anger or feelings of vengeance/hate.

One might feel repulsed by evil, but to hate it can make for problems over the long haul. I would hesitate to call any attack evil unless I "felt" it to be so. As such, each individual case should be considered. That, in itself, is an impossible complication which often cannot be dealt with. Such is the human condition.
Man, this is discouraging. Got a headache.

Cody

[reemul]

It's about understanding that some people have animosity towards other's ways of life, and that they are also unwilling to come to the table to talk let alone listen.

But maybe there is something to OldMonkey's way of thinking.
If I encounter someone being assaulted or raped maybe I'll try talking to the assailant and maybe halfway through his assault he'll come around.

[Yung Apprentice]

What happened on 9/11 was not bad, it was evil. Those people got on a plane, purposely hijacked it, then went on a suicidal collision course with the twin towers. And for what? For recognition? Because they were told? No, they were sending out a message. A message showing how evil they are. These people are doing this out of hate. They hate so much, they are willing to give up there own lives to take as many people out with them. You cannot reason with them. You cannot rehabilitate them. If someone hates you so much to where they're willing to give up there own lives to kill you, do think they will reason with you? They will not even listen to you. They won't let you rehabilitate them. Also we are not dealing with one person. We are dealing with a group of people who hate. They will keep coming after us until they are all destroyed. And this is NOT about vengeance. If it was vengeance, the U.S would be taking innocent lives instead of those who are guilty. When U.S. dropped the atomic bombs Japan, THAT was vengeance. This is going after those who are responsible for taking those innocent lives.



Remember these people's sole purpose were to take as many out with them as possible. The only way to stop a kamakazee is by killing them before they kill you or other innocents.

[Fish of Fury]

My teacher holds true to the mohist philosophy of "Universal Love" - Reemul

"People like you are alive because people like me step in and protect you from unwillingness to protect yourself. I've seen it all too often. "

so is you're teacher only alive because of you, too? are you going to "punch him in the face as hard as you can."?



I think people want to see the problem in black and white, you're either insane and mindless with bloodlust and revenge, or else you're an effete pathetic hippy with no concept of reality.
the truth is most people fall somewhere in between (and will therefore object to being labelled as either extreme...causing more anger and getting nowhere)

i don't believe there has to be a total, absolute immediate solution...the fact that we all are discussing it and thinking about it means (i hope and believe) that there is some hope that one day many of these problems CAN be solved on a global or at least much larger scale.

for the moment i suppose Americas response is necessary, but that doesn't mean that people calling for peace are "wrong".
perhaps one of the reasons Americas response is as reasonable as it is (pinpoint bombing, special op.s as opposed to nuking the whole country) is because of the awareness raised by pacifists and hippies.
so i believe they perform a valuable role, there's no need to go beating them up just because their view doesn't fit with your own with regards to the immediate solution to this problem

[Radhnoti]

Well said Fish.
I don't imagine that the terrorists who controlled those planes thought they were evil. Evil, to them, is the way our society changes (to them perverts) their own. Evil, to them, is the fact that their holy sites are occupied by another group.
Don't get me wrong, they must be destroyed if they intend to attack our citizenry. I, personally, won't label them as "evil" though. Seems to be a propaganda technique to me, which is fine...propaganda can be used to steel the resolve of a nations citizenry. And resolve is the only way to win a war like this.
The bottom line is I don't see them as evil, but it may be a good thing for most Americans to see them that way. It gives us the feeling of owning the moral high ground, and dropping bombs on "evil" seems to go over better than dropping bombs on "religious freedom fighters".

[jun_erh]

If 9-11 was a street fight:

Osama sees George Bush, who he hates, walking down the street. He comes up to him touches him on the shoulder, when George W Bush turns around, Osama kicks him in the balls so hard he feels like he is going to die. Satisfied, Osama walks off. Bush doesn't know what to do, he wants to stop this from happening again, to him or to anyone else. Osama is a bully, who for some reason hates George and many of his friends. So he waits, of course, he could have gone over and just beat the **** out of Osama and his entire family, but Osama ran and hid afterward. Bush sends out a warning, produce Bin Laden and his associates or face the consequences... They ignore it, so the Bin Laden's extended family has the crap beaten out of them by various Bush brothers and sisters. Rather than the cheap, surprise tactics the Bin Ladens use, the Americans, and their expensive martial arts training, Use a variety of punches and kicks they have never even seen. They defend themselves with their streetfighting skills as long as they can, but eventually give up. The other members of the Bin Laden extended family are glad, feeling that Osama was too bossy, though he did do some repairs around the house and instill a handy dandy chore pie graph thing so everything was relatively neat.


Anyone find this entertaining at all?:D

Some folks use the evils of others as an EXCUSE for propagating their own violence and intolerance.

[reemul]

I agree

[Royal Dragon]

"But maybe there is something to OldMonkey's way of thinking.
If I encounter someone being assaulted or raped maybe I'll try talking to the assailant and maybe halfway through his assault he'll come around."

Uh Yah, Sure.......................Half way through the assailant has done perminant dammage, transfered his diseases to the rape victem, and bashed the skull of his muggging victem to the point he's now a perminant retard, but sure, talking helped, because he did stopp what he was doing and listened to you, wile pulling his pants back up and counting his new found riches. Heck, because of your excellent "Talking" skills he may even fold up the wallet and nicely put it back in his now perminantly retarded victem's back pocket before mugging you too.
:rolleyes:

RD :rolleyes:

[Yung Apprentice]

Yes it is evil. To be bad is to know something is wrong and to do it anyway. But to do something wrong and see it as good? Well it may not be the defintion of evil, but to me it is evil.

[Royal Dragon]

"People like you are alive because people like me step in and protect you from unwillingness to protect yourself. I've seen it all too often."

Are you by chance in the military? or Law enforcement? That comment sounds familiar.

[reemul]

I'm just a military brat.

All I mean by the statement is, unlike most people I have and am still willing to put my wellbeing at stake to protect others.

During my junior high and high school years I got in fights usually defending the Mentally retarded kids in school. $hit like that sets me off with quickness, now so more than ever. Of course I don't see it so much now.

My Rant on Police.

I would never become a police officer. I don't respect or trust em.
I don't think all cops are as bad as the straight up crooked ones but looking the other way is about as bad. It Pi$$es me off to hear a cop who gets busted whining about its a hard job and hes all stressed out. ** NO $HIT !! its a hard job ** The thing is, if your are entrusted to protect my rights, you must be held to a higher standard. At the same time though, we get what we pay for. Perhaps if the job paid more and the requirements were of a higher standard, we wouldn't Be Bit<hin.

[tnwingtsun]

What if.......................



The attackers were crazied Alabama fans!!!!!!!:D

[Yung Apprentice]

I don't like cops. I hate cops. I don't trust cops. Which is why I'm thinking of becoming a cop. So I can give the crooked cops a good name!

Then good luck working amidst people you hate - and who'll probably hate you for hating them.

[Yung Apprentice]

Maybe I'll get lucky, and have a partner who is actually decent. But one can only wish.:D

[WarriorMonk777]

I have been a student of the martial arts, for many years. Recently i have started to study the Shaolin ways. I may be incorrect, but i always thought that the reason for the martial arts was to be able to defend yourself and those innocents around you. The Shaolin Monks were given the gift of gung-fu by Tamo in order to be able to mediate for lengthy periods of time, and in the process discovered the beauty and lethality of the arts. So saying, i spent 4+ years defending the U.S.A. against those that would seek to do her harm. I would that all people could get along peacefully, but i think we would all agree that that is a pipe dream. If it came down to me using my limited knowledge to stop a terrorist from inflicting harm on another, then yes i will do so without reservation or remorse. Your Brother in Arms.

[Yung Apprentice]

AMEN!

[Yung Apprentice]

Ya know, there was a person who felt sympathy for Bin Laden and his crew. He was that rich, mentally unstable, 15 year old who flew a plane into the Bank of America bulding.

[Royal Dragon]

I feel sorry for his family, they must be hiding in shame............I would.

RD

[chessGMwannabe]

if we didn't consider oursleves to be morally superior to bin ladin, we wouldn't feel any remorse in retaliating against him. weakness lacks control of itself so it need some outside source of weakness to excercize any controll. for the taliban it was the inadaquate security of our airlines. so we could be weak by excercizing our superiour armed forces to exploit their weakness. then we would be a better weaker nation then they are. we could enslave them, make them build a new trade center for us, and then all of the damage would be repaired that was done to us, sure soem people that were in the trade center died, but then we'd have the slaves to make up for the production loss, so who cares. if we didn't consider ourselves to be great that would work fine, until internal corruption and whatnot erroded our strenght and our slaves rebelled, so we'd try to pay some foreighners to keep them in line and yadayada.
you get the pic:cool:

[MonkSanTe]

This is totally off the subject, and I hope no one gets upset by this, but I just wanted to say thanks to Reemul for sticking up for the mentally disabled. I work in a functional special ed class.more then a few times I wanted take care of some idiot who doesn't get it. Thanks man, I can definitely appreciate that!

[red_fists]

Hi.

Consider the following 2 things.

What if the 9-11 Hijackers were the sons and Family of Mr McVeigh.

Consider the following you destroy Al-Qaeda, what about their families without a breadwinner and income.
I am sure that they will have undying love,gratitude and respect for the US for now being poor and starving.

Jut some thoughts.

Violence begats more Violence. (right or wrong it doesn't matter)

[Yung Apprentice]

An unlikely scenario.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
An unlikely scenario.

How unlikely was that 2 Jets would crash into the WTC??

Unlikely scenarios are the most common ones to really hit home hard.

Seeya.

[Yung Apprentice]

How unlikely was the two jets would crash into the WTC?

Not as unlikely as a whole unstable family, here in America, who are all at a lost of common sense. You spoke of what if the family of McVeigh? That is an unlikely scenario. For a long time America knew that the were groups outside of the U.S. that envied America, and all it stands for. An attack on the U.S. was NOT an unlikely scenario, only the form in which they attacked. Propaganda spewed by ones government, envy of America's freedom, and envy of America's wealth, and economy are probably SOME of the reasons groups hate the U.S.


But to have a whole family, living here in the states, turn on there country, and cause the deaths of thousands of lives? To me that DOES seem like an unlikely scenario. Someone seriuosly screwed up in the head would do that. But a whole family of nut cases? I might come off as naive, but to me that is an unlikely scenario.

SEEYA.