Famous vs. Unknown

[Shaolindynasty]

How many of you guys chose your current school based on reputation? I hear people all the time praising well known(through media like magazines) masters kungfu even though they never have seen them in action. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you feel it is important for a teacher to be well known? Would you choose a school based on the fame of a teacher?
I personally would approach a famous teacher the same as if nobody ever heard of him before. How do you choose?

[zen_celt]

Treating all teachers with respect is important. Personally, I would approach a famous teacher the same as a no-so-famous teacher. Fame is rather subjective. What fame does for a teacher is, it draw students from a ****her distance who are willing to learn. For instance, if I had the opportunity to travel to Master Li Siu Hung's school in Florida, whom I heard about in Kung Fu Magazine, I would be willing to do it. I'd still want to see his Kung Fu or talk to him, if he's as good as they say, he probably would not mind, or at least one of his students wouldn't. But just because he's in KF magazine doesn't mean that he's better than anyone else or that I should learn from him. It's just that I know who he is because of KF mag. and had it not been for that publication, I wouldn't know him from Joe Schmoe on the street. Just because a person has fame doesn't mean they're bad, but it doesn't make them good either.
-ZC

[Apprentice]

now if you would've spelled FURTHER correctly, you wouldn't have gotten a series of astrix(***)...jes helpin :D

[Royal Dragon]

I'm my own master, I don't care if my teacher is famous, not famous or even if I have a teacher. I can still learn and better myself one step at a time just the same either way. At my point in the game, it's how hard I work, NOT who's work I'm doing.

Royal Dragon

[Xebsball]

The best way is always visiting the school and checking out the stuff, if its good do it if not move on.

[Nexus]

It depends if you want to be one of those chums with a website full of pictures of you standing side by side fifty great martial arts masters because you forked over some $ for a one hour session & a photo.

By the way, my website of crap is availableHere (http://www.microsoft.com/) .

- Nexus

[Paul]

I would have to say from my experiences that just because someone is famous and has written books/videos/been in magazines/has a big school, that doesn't mean they will teach what you as an individual are looking for. You just have to go check out what they are teaching. If you like what they are doing who cares whether or not they are famous?

[fiercest tiger]

well i would go for the unknown because like ykm it was unknown so it was alot harder to fight in the old days!

also you can say your famous, but famous in what way?

[Kristoffer]

I did not pick my school from rep. i just thought that it looked like the best out there. I still think this and that's why I keep training there.

[Shaolindynasty]

I was just curious cause alot of newbies come here and ask how to find a good teacher and alot of the time people say things about checking his reputation, they say if he is any good he will be well known. Personally I think some of the best masters are hidden and keep a low profile. Not to say the guys in magazines aren't good, I mean there is alot of guys out there I look up to for their accomplishments, like Tat Mau Wong, Shi Yan Ming, and I really like Wing Lam's business ideas with his mail order stuff(to bad I didn't think of it first).

I guess the main reason I wanted to know peoples stance on this is because the little known sifus seem to get no respect and most get labeled as frauds. I guess that's cause people don't know them, oh well.

[LEGEND]

SHAOLIN...during my pre TKD days I got bought into training with GRANDMASTER and TKD CHAMP KIM...now little did I know there was sooooo many TKD champs! LOL...nor did I know that MASTER KIM never taught a single class for the 6 months I was a there! Nor did I know that for every TKD school...there is alwayz a master KIM...inside KOREAN joke. I have since taken up the policy to train with GOOD COMMUNICATORs...if they were GREAT CHAMPIONs...fantastic...but GREAT VERBAL COMMUNICATORs are the key! They can in detail fixed your striking or grappling. For others I like to train with GREAT MOTIVATORs that push u further...like drill sergent type mentality! Sometime as a human being we can get lazy...well I'm only speaking about myself of course!

I think you underestimate the newbies, Shaolindynasty.

It is in the nature of some folks to check people's reputations. But don't forget that NOT ALL NEWBIES do that - nor is it a bad thing to do. Should a newbie (or anybody) be blamed for trying to figure out where to put their hard earned time and money?

And if a person chooses not to study with a person because of reputation, does that sifu REALLY want such a person in his class?


Which little-known sifus "get no respect" and are "labeled as frauds?"

[Shaolindynasty]

"Which little-known sifus "get no respect" and are "labeled as frauds?""

I just mean in gernal on thses boards people are really sckeptical about instructors and schools if they haven't heard of them, I guess that could be due to a large amount of them actually being shady.

I feel that a newbie should research technique and principles of styles before chooseing a school like I did. Now a teacher can get well known and have alot of publications and 'world championships" to brag about and still be no good. But If you are educated on MA technique you can tell by observation if a school is what you want. All the pther intellectual stuff is pretty usless in chooseing a school. I searched alot of schools and watched skill before I chose my Sifu, before I visited his class I never heard of him but he was the best in the area. I was just making the observation that if you only search the well known you could be missing out on a really great school to learn from.

I don't see any lesser known sifus being trashed by people that haven't heard of them, ShaolinDynasty.

If anything, I see well-known folks being trashed by people that have never touched hands or stepped foot in their kwoons. Heck, YOU'RE the one calling other schools "shady" in your prior post.

Newbies DO research stuff and ask good questions. Don't forget that you were a newbie once and did the EXACT SAME THING that they're doing here.

Trust me, the people on these boards aren't anywhere as "skeptical" as you think they are.

[TenTigers]

At this point in my traning/age, I don't care who the person is. If he has knowledge, and can pass on this knowledge, is partly what counts-I have learned from men I have met in the park,and other odd places, some who which I have never learned their names. I have been scolded at one point for asking."Why ask his name? He is just Sifu. Everyone calls him Sifu-You call him Sifu"
I say partly for one reason; I have left teachers who posessed great skill,and/or knowledge, strictly because of their lack of morality, and personal ethics. I know I have missed some oportunities, but I cannot study under someone whom I cannot trust. I cannot separate myself that much. I would be decieving my Sifu, and myself. At what cost?

[Bak Mei]

My teacher is very well known, at least in the area and by those who seek to fight the best (he has been visted from those on the east and west coast as well as Taiwan, CHina, ect.)

However, I saught him out because of his reputation as a fighter and because I crossed hands with one of his students and found his fighting technology to be superior to any I have ever seen.

I was happy with my current training so when I was first introduced I kept an open eye and mind but wanted to see for myself. Any doubts were quickly dismissed. My teacher takes the aproach that I like: it must work, no BS, straight to the point.

At 60 years old I can't touch him. This is the truth and I do not consider myself to be of a low level -- quite the contrary. At 27 and 210lbs, if I am anything I am tenacious, and still not avail.

Power, straight forward principles that work and a healthy aproach to training -- that is what keeps me returning to study under my master's tutelage. I have never used that title before when adressing anyone, and only did whith my current sifu once in writing, but the title fits. I have never experinced someone of his caliber or ability, and now I see why he has the reputation that he does.

Even more amazing is the fact that this man has no enemies, and in NYC that is unique in the martial world. Even those who saught him out, challenged him and were defeated respect this honest, straight forward man. Truly a great man. Unbelievable martial artist. Training with his is a dream come true for me.

[MonkeySlap Too]

You know Bak Mei, your teacher sounds like someone worth emulating.

I'll tell you though - I guarentee you that behind his back people are whining and crying. I have never seen such a bunch of babies as martial arts folks.

But by being a 'big shadow' your teacher probably mitigates this problem.

My Shuai Chiao coach had a similar rep. He was always very honest and talked about his medical practice and family taking precedence over his own training - but he could toss you around like a rag doll.

He also gave so much back to the community that he was genuinely loved - not as a martial artist - but as a great man.

Really strikes a different cord from those 'chest thunpers' out there, eh?

[Bak Mei]

Nice to know that they are still out there.

I don't quite get martial artists today. They are all cry babies, you are right. There also seems to be a mass exodus from the idea that martial arts should be about combat. Now, make no mistake, martial arts have been a part of my entire life, and I fully apriacte the person its discipline and moral fiber has molded me into, but I demand to keep the MARTIAL in martial arts.

When speaking with outsiders, I'm almost shunned for suggesting that martial is the #1 priority that a MA should have. Yes, come visit our kwoons for health, and a clear mind, but **** it, after 7 to 10 years you better be able to defend yourself and defend yourself well. I for one am embarrased to be ranked among the scores of black belts you hear about getting their heads handed to themselves out on the street -- disgusting.

I believe this is from an over emphasis on form, and not enough realistic function being taught in the school. Its partialy student and teacher blame. Students want everything easy. They want to claim martial strenght without getting any brusies. Teachers are willing to comply to keep the class full, and teaching 15 forms is a peace of cake, especially when newbies are clumsy -- you can eat 10 months on one form alone easily.

Well, I guess I'm ranting. Nice meeting you. Have a great day.
Peace
Ray

[dezhen2001]

but fighting all the time must get a bit boring after a while (?)Training your martial arts skill is a good thing - and after maybe 7 or 10 years of experience you should be able to defend yourself.....but still, if you get taken by surprise, there's not much you can do.

Training in a good traditional martial art should have all the things you mentioned. You should learn 'martial science' - how the body works as well as self defence skill, but health is most important. If you're not healthy first - then how will you fight? I may be able to do all these techniques, but if i get out of breath quickly or have a bad posture etc. then that will quickly count against me. Better to sort those out at the start, fighting training takes care of itself afterwards.

I agree that some teachers and students just train too easily - it's called chasing $$$$$$. You give the people what you want, that way they keep coming back. I mean, i've been training my Siu Lum Tao now for 18 months and it's still no good (according to my Sifu)......i don't know many people who would like to do that? Most people want to grade every 3 months and move on to something new, so many clubs give them that.

But i think a good concentration on form is a good thing. In a real fight, things get messy real quick, so it's better to train your technique to be good and clear. That way it still works in a real fight.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand......i think there is a difference between someone being 'good' and 'a good teacher'. So the main thing for me was communication. Can they explain the principles and techniques in a easy to understand way? if so, then that's good. Also, how do they interact with their students? is there a balance between showing/helping them and lettign them figure out things on their own...?
Just because you are in a magazine or a champion means you are good, not necccessarily a good teacher. But people in magazines who have regular colums are worth reading. That way you can find out if they can explain things coherently. That's how i first found out about my Sigong and am now training under one of his students :) Luckily skill is just as good as their teaching so i always feel very lucky.

david

[Nexus]

david,

Good thoughts on training.

A common routine in tai chi is standing post meditation for six months before forms are introduced and emphasized as something you should practice on your own time.

Ontop of that, you spend a year learning the gross movements of the forms before you move anywhere towards application and form refinement. All the while you are still doing 75% of your time in standing post meditation, which is 2-3 hours a day of you are determined and consistent.

After learning the basics of Yang style (24-movement) you are introduced to the first third of the long form and push hands. Then once the long form is learned you work on refinement as well as applications, and begin your introduction to Chen style.

Overall you can spend 5-10 years learning Yang 24-movement, Standing post meditation, Yang Long Form (108), Chen form, Push hands, and Tai Chi sword/and/or staff.

During all of this, you are just touching upon the surface of application, sparring and mat work starts after 4-5 years of consistent practice.

Of course all of this is not necessary if you are looking for short cuts, and some people practice once a week and still follow this routine without gaining the benefits of daily practice.

But, I often have asked the question, "How long after starting this routine/process is someone able to defend themselves using the tai chi they have learned?"

I would say if they are dedicated, consistent and commited to their practices somewhere between 5-8 years.

- Nexus

[Kim]

So you find a good teacher, whether famous or not, that communicates well and motivates and pushes you. If you say it takes 5 - 8 years to be effective in Tai Chi, how long before you can expect to be effective in Kung Fu? What could you expect your training to be like? Looking for something similar to previous post about 6 months of this then some form....

[KC Elbows]

Unknown teachers can be the best to have, if they are qualified. The reason I say this is because, if they are trying to become established, they tend to train their people very well, as the hallmark of a great teacher is great students. My teacher is still working to establish himself, not in a monetary way, but just his reputation among the sifus he respects, and so those of us who show some promise and dedication get taught extremely well, and he works very hard to continue this.

I've seen some well established teachers who do not do the same, and who don't need great students for their reputations. However, there are also some very famous teachers out there that deserve the reputations they have earned.

[DelicateSound]

Its hard these days to know what's right. With commercialisation at an all time high and scores of guys promoting "Real Life Navy Seal Training" and "15 minutes to perfect Qui" its hard to know what is real these days

I used to worry about my own school, which has become commercialised, I used to worry that its website and logos made it "fake", but I now see through that, and realise that the students that are coming out of the doors are still as good as ever, they just have the words "Lau-Gar" written up their legs. :D

[dezhen2001]

i guees how long to be 'combat ready' so to speak depends on what style and what your teacher is like...Kung Fu is a pretty big area , there's a lot of 'choice' out there.

Also what do you mean by 'effective'? able to defend against your common drunken lout? against a trained martial artist? There is so much to choose from - again it depends on you and your reasons for training. If it's just fighting, then traditional training is often a long way about doing it...Most people want hands on experience straight away - not to be practising standing meditation or the form for a year or so! But if you want to learn the skill, then again, it's different. Mainly it depends on YOU - how quickly you can learn and understand the concepts and principles of your chosen style - and also how you apply them.

In response to Delicate Sound:

There are so many 'Real Fighting' styles out there now that it's sometimes hard to see the wood from the trees...if they are 'real' self defence, then why are the traditional martial arts still around?

So many posters and flyers, clubs with sweatshirts and logos etc... Now i just get on with my own training and don't really think about anything else. I'm happy i found my Sifu and i know the skills he is teaching me are benificial not just for fighting. I'm happy to spend the rest of my life following him - and don't care whether i learn to fight or not - that will take care of itself in due course. I mean, the chances of me getting in to a fight are reasonably small (even in the ghetto that is WolfTown :D).

david

[DelicateSound]

Sod all the posters and sh!t, I use whatever gets me ther. I too am glad I found my school, and feel sorry for all those who go to a McKwoon........ or like Ralek, who've never stept inside one.

[Merryprankster]

Here's a general rule:

If people don't leave bruised.

If people don't sometimes have to get stitches on a fairly regular basis.

If there isn't tape somewhere on everybody.

If the uniforms are clean.

If the belts look new.

If your face isn't marked up.

If sparring consists of I touch you and you touch me.


Then find a new place to train.

[TenTigers]

I never considered our school a 'school of hard knocks' or 'hardcore', but..all students experience contact on day one, through reaction drills hands on with a partner, and sam sing. They get banged a little, and are informed that it goes with the territory, and that it's no big deal. We don't allow egos, or macho attitude,and it's a warm, friendly atmosphere, but they will sweat,they will bang around, and they will hit the floor, and they will get used to it. Hopefully they will enjoy it as well! If not, they know where the door is. My Sifu once told me,"give them what they think they want, while you give them what they need" I think this is sound advice, and I am trying to do just this. My curriculum, and training methods are in constant flux, I am alsways learning,always looking for a better way to get a student from point A to point B, and I am always open to change. I studied under some of the best and some of the worst teachers out there, hopefully I can save my students from learning some of the bad habits I am still trying to overcome. It is my sincere desire that they surpass me, so the next generation is stronger, not weaker from all the commercialization of Gung-Fu.

[tnwingtsun]

I may be going to KC this coming summer for Job training.

Is your school open to respectful outside visitors?

Last time I was in KC(1996) I looked but didn't find any CMA schools.

Is your system Southern or Northern?

Not that it matters,just didn't want to spend all of my free time in westport at Kellys with my class mates,gets old after awhile.

Plus I could show you guys a thing or two about cooking BBQ:D

[KC Elbows]

TN,
The school is completely open to outside visitors, we welcome other martial artists. Ours is a Southern internal style, though the early stuff you learn is generally external(sort of a bridge to the internal form). As far as experienced martial artists who practice with us, there's a TKD guy, a external kung fu guy, the teacher also knows a lot of southern five animals, and I have some longfist experience, but six elbows is really my base.

Plus, we go to better places than Kelly's after class.:D

It'd be great to meet one of the other forum members, plus to share kung fu knowledge/experience more directly.

As far as kung fu in KC, one has to know where to look. There's a wudang school, a wing chun school, a five animals and wing chun school. These are the ones you'll find in the phone book.

Outside of the phone book, there are three groups who teach six elbows, there's a guy who teaches what I hear is some very vicious southern five animals, one guy who teaches chin woo stuff, two groups who teach hsing yi, and a contemporary wushu teacher.

Over a forum, I won't give my take on all these groups. Some are good, some not. If you want to check schools out while you're here, I can give you my advice on who is worth seeing, but I'd prefer not to do it over the forum.

[Bak Mei]

Dezhen, I will not argue over form, because many feel it is necessary.

But I'll say this, I am in good shape, but it will never be a factor because a fight should be over in seconds. If my attacker is not down in 5 seconds (honestly) I feel I have lost -- even if I win. If you are fighting one man for more than a minute, your training in inefective. Why? What happens if there are two guys?

Maybe you are not there yet. I'll tell you this, it will ne hard to get there if its taking you 10 months on sil lumtao. Then what, another 10 months, and then maybe you'll learn Bil ji 2 years from now.

OK, 3 years from now you'll be ready to start thinking baout fighting. Why not learn the principles in action. Learn how to shield a direct attack. Learn how to shield swinging energy, side enrgy. Then learn how to shield these while attacking. You'll be a decent fighter in 10 months.

Also, Nexus, not everyone's Taiji training is restricted in that way. My sifu refuses to teach forms. He will show you an IDEA, a piece of the form, but show you how to put it into practice. Most of his students have at least 10 years MA training -- Taiji is not kindergarden, it is PHD training.

I agree, form (of your body) is important -- keeping a strong shape. Being surprised is something should not happen to a MA, you should be aware. When the UNEXPECTED attack occurs though, you should have a strong go to shape, in Hsing-I it is Tiger Hands, it acts like general shield that covers the head and neck. Contact is mage against the shield, then use Gung-Fu from there.

If fighting become "boring", you are either WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY too good for the people you are fighting, or you are not in the martial arts for the reason the martial arts were created. Health is a part of it. But if that is you main focus, you can go to a gyme and get better results, or do yoga.

We are all free to do as we choose, this is not a "train like I train post." Just a call to keep it real. Because, let's say you are a hardcore Wing Chun player, a real die hard. You meet someone somewhere and MA pops up. For argument sake let's say he traing S. Mantis. You guys disagree over a principle.

As a martial artists talking about it is not the way, let' see -- prove it. If you are not willing to, or can not prove what you have learned works, then all you have is soemthing to put on the mantle, some photos in a costume, some cheesey non-weapons and a lot of wasted time.

I know people will slam me for this, I'm used to it. But I am searching for the cleanest, most clear way to end any confrontation -- refinement. Work, work and more work. Fighting, testing, thinking, training some more, set backs and huge leaps forward. I am a MARTIAL ARTISTS.

If I never do a "form" again I will die a happy man. I do chi-gung, even while walking, and I maintain many shapes and my body will take on different forms, but I will not copy or follow a script. Martial Arts should be alive, fluid, create your own forms nitghly while training, the conflict in your mind, find the answers.

This is how I train.

[tnwingtsun]

Thanks a bunch,I'd much rather come and visit your school and meet another forum member.

All I had in 96 was the downtown YMCA basement to work on forms.

St. Paddy's day was alot of fun there.

I'll be in touch when the time comes:cool: