Hsing-I?

[Yung Apprentice]

Is this any good for self defense? I heard it was an aggresive internal art. How is that? Do they emphasise kicks or hand strikes? Please help I'm looking at this school.

[Xebsball]

I'm going to sleep soon, so ill just leave you with a link:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan

[Braden]

All of the internal martial arts are extremely aggressive. Xingyi is an excellent martial art. It is typically misconcieved as the most 'aggressive', most 'simple', and most 'external' of the internal arts because the martial intents of it's movements seem for most people to be the easiest to see. However, there is no fundamental truth to any of these statements. That said, if you can see the martial intent of it's movements better, you may have an easier time applying it. But nothing is so black and white - for example, I see the martial intent of baguazhang much easier, because it is more consistent with how I percieve of fighting.

The site allready posted is an excellent source of info on xingyi, as is www.hsing-i.com . The basis of the training is holding a stationary stance called santi and moving through five very short sequences that will probably look like five kinds of power/angle of striking with the arms/fists. By learning the body mechanics inherent in and associated with this training, practitioners develop _incredible_ striking power. This power is later considered with more martial applications through a series of forms likened to the spirit of various animals. Of course there are plenty of partner drills and such too. Stereotypically, the xingyi tactic is said to advance aggressively into the opponents space, to overrun him and set him up for a large strike. The stereotype is not entirely accurate though - xingyi does make use of angular stepping and deflections to avoid the brunt of it's opponent's force while advancing.

Anyway... that's my late night xingyi ramble. I'm not a practitioner though, only repeating what I've heard my betters say. Good luck. :)

[Paul]

Hsing-I is cool.

[NafAnal]

Darn right, nice summary Braden. I think Xingyi is very popular in japan because it's the most karate-esqe of the internal arts. As Braden said- the stereotypical view of xingyi is to aggresively set your opponent up for one strike. You can see the parallels. It's just that karate alone really lacks emphasis placed by arts like xingyi on fine internal structure, alignment and intent. I find xingyi fits very well into my mentality.

Hey Braden do bagua guys favour palm strikes or is this another stereotype? In your view how is the power generation of it's strikes different to xingyi? Xingyi has linear strikes but with very subtle coiling and spiralling motions in it. I don't know a lot about bagua but isn't the power generation similar?

[Braden]

Naf -

Bagua varies ALOT between lineages, but the vast majority of them DO _heavily_ favor palm strikes. The two most common strikes in the system I am learning are heavy strikes using the entire palm, and strikes with the striking surface adjacent the thumb's base - used in similar angles as elbow strikes. Front and back elbows are also very prominent, as are backpalms. The only fist techniques I've seen in my style, and even they have been underemphasized, have been uppercuts and hammerfists.

I haven't personally done any xingyi, so I couldn't comment on the differences in power generation. I would suspect that the fundamentals are the same, but each style has it's own emphasis and some 'other' stuff. Even between bagua styles, there will be some differences in power generation. For instance, the useage of the dragon palm for striking is particular, and wouldn't be found in styles that emphasize other palm shapes. I suspect that bagua emphasizes more horizontal energy, more the movements of the waist, will deviate from the six harmonies more readily, and has more developped the idea of the 'palm' extending down the entire body as a single striking surface.

[Yung Apprentice]

What do you mean Karate-esque?

[NafAnal]

I mean of the three main internal arts, xingyi's external apperance most resembles karate. I'm speaking very generally here of course.

Xingyi's 5 elements sort of resemble the stepping and punching training techniques employed by many karate schools. However xingyi has the "keys" that karate lacks or is unwilling to give beginners. i.e. focus on correct structure, alignment, intent etc.

However stance-wise the karate front stance - the most common training stance in many karate schools resembles the bow stance much more than the rear weighted xingyi stance. I find the stepping in xingyi to be very similar in external apperance to wing chun...

[TenTigers]

Naf-do you see anny similarities-other than superficially between beng ch'uan and battle punches (usually taught with the luk dim bun gwun)or jik chung choy strikes found in wing chun?

[Yung Apprentice]

A couple things I didn't like about Karate, is it seems to sraight and angular and to me it seemed kinda slow(and slowfooted) . In Hsing-I is the footwork similar? I ask because I wonder if it emphasises speed in footwork and speed in hand tecniques. One of the reasons I've taken a liking to CMAs is that it seems more fluid than JMA.

[Yung Apprentice]

Also I feel that CMAs are quicker than most JMAs.And more realistic.

[Tvebak]

I have been practising Xingyi for about a year now, when i started i had a high level graduation in another kungfu system, first thing i found out was that i was unable to stand move or punch even half as good at the Xingyi beginners...a very humbling experience.
Now after only a year of practice xingyi has changed and improved not only my Kungfu techniques but also my capoeira.
I think that xingyi is a style that everybody should experience.
One of the best Internal matrial artists i know told me that if he could start over again he would have practiced the first 10 years only Xingyi.

[Yung Apprentice]

Thats encouraging! I've heard many good things sbout Hsing-I. But I still wonder how swift is it?

[Tvebak]

Xingyi as i see it is very good in that its fast, balanced and the basics are relativly easy to learn ( my experience compared to other things i have tried).
I think originally the system was made to teach spearmen unarmed defence in a short time, can anyone tell if this is correct?

[NafAnal]

Tentigers- I'm sure there are similarities, i'm just a beginner in both xingyi and wc, esp wc. with the wc arrow(sp?) walking the stance and stepping is very similar to the xingyi stance, albeit with less emphasis on fine structure and intention. xingyi emphasizes precise alignment and intent from the word go. The beng quan has a slight downward sinking quality to it, something not initially emphasized the wc that i took. A difference i can see is that wc guys were not taugh to twist their upper torso, but keep it square as they stepped foward. If they rotated they were taught to do it as a unit on their heels..... xingyi motion used a horizontal twisting of the waist and upper spine. with the arm movement simply a by product of the motion. I'm sure someone with more wc and xingyi experience can give you more theory into the elements and energies involved.

Yung- Karate is general is very straight and relies on linear exagerrated movements. It is not slowfooted. In the training stance yes, it's slow but when sparring the stances were fleeting, i.e. they appeared (and only in a shortened form) only for a split second before changing into something else.

In this sense it is similar to xingyi, i.e. linear stepping and use of angles of attack. karate emphasizes speed a lot.

IMO none of the internals really emphasize speed to the same extent. Instead focusing on building a good foundation for whole body power and strucutre. The aim is to transcend the need for speed. This takes a heck of a long time and is one of the reasons why you gain fighting ability far quicker in other styles. Xingyi as with any system can be slow or lightning fast. chen man ching was renowned for practicing very slow but paradoxically had the ability to whip techniques out extremely fast. While xingyi at my level doesn't emphaize speed. At a certain level it is just as fast as any other art.

xingyi is not wonderfully peaceful like taichi or mesmerising in the way bagua circle walking is, it looks rough and crude in comparison. However it can be just as fluid. moreso than karate IMO.

Another thing most karate is strictly long range. (THERE ARE MANY EXCEPTIONS) the internal cma generally want to get close.

I've done xingyi for a couple of months and am still very very stuck on "pi" splitting fist. If i had the choice i wouldda have done an internal for 7 years instead of shotokan. xingyi suits me better as it's essentially a puncher's art and probably the closest in appearance to karate.

Any of the internals are good. also recommend some form of silat. I hear goooood things about it all the time.

[Yung Apprentice]

I went to a Karate school for a short while. I guess it was just the school but it really didn't teach much in the way of anything. And since I had practiced in TKD (I took a TKD that didn't emphasise self defense so I wanted to study something different)before that I used to get frustrated when everyone just assumed that any martial art meant Karate. The sparring matches I've seen were slow in comparison to TKD(at least it seems that way to me) Many people take Karate or have taken it and I just wanted something different. I wanted to study in a martial art that was anything but Karate, something people can recognise as an art that isn't Karate. (which I know is kinda childish) But I've taken a great liking to this school in town. It teaches Hsing-I. I've even heard the sifu there is really good. I like how it's aggressive. I also like (from what I've heard) how Hsing-I practioners are very lethal in hand strikes. (after all most fights are with fists alone) I aslo like how it's internal style. I've heard many things about the strength of internal martial arts. To me it seems that Hsing-I is both internal and external. But this particular MA has intrested me a lot.

[Yung Apprentice]

I read on one of the Hsing-I sites that internal only meant, I think it went along the lines of, a certain region. And that most have the misconception of internal as being soft. Is this statement correct? I though most internal arts were soft and about things like chi. Isn't that supposedly internal power, cultivating your Chi?Isn't that how iron palm, iron body is taught too, using chi? Hsing-I teaches about chi also,right? Because I used to think that Hsing-I taught both using internal power and external power.( I'm really anxious, I can't wait to start studying at the Hsing-I school. They also Chin NA , iron body,and iron palm to advanced students)

[yuxiang]

Yung Apprentice, if you are considering the school on Nellis Ave, by all means do it!! He is a good teacher.
Besides, Hsing-I 0wnZ.

[Yung Apprentice]

Thats the one I'm looking at! How did you know about that one?Who is the teacher there? I forgot to ask ,in Hsing-I are there weapon trainings? Isn't this a small world?( what do you mean Hsing-I owns?) Your not the only one here who said he is very good, so this is very encouraging.

[Yung Apprentice]

I'm very excited about this school!

[Felipe Bido]

Yes, Hsing Yi has weapon training. Most schools teach the broadsword and the spear, but there are many other forms (In my school we practice Broadsword, straight sword, spear, and some of us have training in Hsing Yi needles).

Hsing Yi training goes from "Evident Power" (That looks like any external style) to "Hidden Power" (That looks as internal as it can be) so, you can say you have both internal/external training. And of course it has Chi Kung/ Nei Kung training, and Iron Body excercises, different from school to school.

Hsing Yi is very powerful and aggressive. I know you'll like it.

[NafAnal]

Isn't the spear 11 foot long or something?

[Felipe Bido]

The spear that is used to train strength is 10-12 feet long. A smaller spear is used to train the fighting techniques, and also to practice the two-man forms. Its length is the equivalent of the practicioner's height plus an arm raised

[Yung Apprentice]

Very cool!

[Wu-Xing]

xingyi's the best ;)

[iron thread]

"To me it seems that Hsing-I is both internal and external."

All the arts that are so called "seperated" by internal and external categories are just going to reform into it's shape....All kung fu is meant to be both, your external is useless if you just gonna lose all of it without internal to refine and refresh it, your internal cannot be learned without the development of your body mechanics through mere external movements.

And also, I'd like to note that Daito Ryu Aikibudo is very smooth and is not fitted to the stereotypes of the Japanese martial arts. It is also very violent in application, and resembles some of the applications of Chen style Tai Chi I believe.

[Colin]

Hey Naf....
just keep it smooth! and keep it slow to start.
Once you've got Pi-Quan the rest will follow nicely.
Xing Yi is so Cool, I just love the power that can be generated from what appears to be only a relatively small movement.
I think that Xing Yi is actually very fast. The Internal power that you can generate I believe is due to the total body movement that is used, and of course the complete body relaxation that you have to try to achieve. This i've found quite hard to develop as I come from a southern shaolin style, so i'm more used to generating explosive power than the whole body in unison thing.

As my Xing Yi Quan Master says " Go home & practice, practice, practice.....then practice some more!"

good luck

Colin.............

[fa_jing]

Don't know much about Hsing-yi, but it is supposed to be internal.
I think it's because the punches originate from the Dan-tien (Just below the navel). At least in the forms. This is a very powerful rising punch that can uproot. Anyone know if the punch always originates from this spot in real applications?

I always wanted to study Hsing-Yi, I think it would fit well with Wingchun because the stance is not too different (60-40).

-FJ

[Yung Apprentice]

I know Hsing-I emphasises punching and hand strikes. But how about kicking, kneeing, and elbowing. I know that Hsing-i is mostly close fighting. But do they have ANY long range attacks?

[iron thread]

Hsing-I practitioners are really just gonna bridge the gap if there is any in a fight....so in a way....i guess not.....i'm not sure if there are any techniques that would work in longer range if trained under the Hsing-I system....there might be this one kick that I personally know of from the Shanxi style in the 5 elements combination form......but basically, the footwork disables most fighting from long range

[Tvebak]

From the little Xingyi i have done i know that there is elbowstrikes. There is a low front kick in the steps and another one in one of the turns.
I think the stepping kick is similair to a wc front kick in the way that its a part of the movement forward.
I have not seen any knee techs yet.
As i have been explained the punches originate low because then if you are standing normally and relaxed, you wont have to lift youre hands before punching.
My teacher says that Xingyi and WC compliment each other very well, and the wc guys who have been practising with us all said that their wc is much better with the striking power of Xingyi.

[NafAnal]

"This is a very powerful rising punch that can uproot."

Dropping punches also facilitate uprooting. The slight downwards motion in the beng quan provokes an opposite reaction, hence facilitating an uprooting.

Another thing, i was under the imprssion that most internal systems were quite short range. Any system that really emhasizes short power and alignment is generally short range, to generate a large amount of power the techniques employed by internal systems are generally shorter and closer to the body.

The punches originate from low position in many styles. Everything stems from a position of absolute neutrality- how you would be standing naturally. (wuji position i think)

natural style boxing also drills with punches coming from a totally neutral position.

I too have found the stances in wc and xingyi to be similar. although the xingyi really takes apart the essence and purpose of the stance, paying loads of attention to structure and the energy while standing. something not initially emphasized in wc.

[iron thread]

"to generate a large amount of power the techniques employed by internal systems are generally shorter and closer to the body. "

Can u explain? Not that I'm implying anything, it's just that I don't know where ur idea is coming from....Also, would u be able to say, this is why the 1 inch punch in Wing Chun indeed works at the distance of 1 inch?

[NafAnal]

Explain? not sure i can. Just a green newbie, i was talking in general really. Hoping someone would correct me. Well what i meant was that it seemed to me that most of the techniques which rely on alignment and whole body power are quite short range. i.e. there is no leaning into the punch, overextending the arm or throwing long kicks or fists seen in other systems. I suppose that if you did you destroyed your structure and alignment and capacity to generate a large amont of force. I'm just guessing though. doesn't have to be one inch away at all.

[Yung Apprentice]

Is Hsing-I based off of anything? Does it have any influence from the animal styles? Does it carry any animal forms and if so which one does it emphasise more?

[Felipe Bido]

Yeah, Hsing-I has 12 animal forms (with their variations). They are variations of the five fists and are based in the intention of the animal, rather than mimicking their movements. The emphasis on a particular animal is up to you. Some animal forms are best suited for different kinds of people. But of course, you have to learn them all.

[Yung Apprentice]

Which twelve animals? How much time is "USUALLY" spent on one animal form? I forgot to ask is there grappling in Hsing-Yi?

[Felipe Bido]

Twelve animals are:
1. Dragon
2. Tiger
3. Monkey
4. Horse
5. Alligator
6. Chicken
7. Sparrowhawk
8. Swallow
9. Snake
10. Tai Bird
11. Eagle
12. Bear

In some schools there are variations of the forms, the Fighting Chicken form, and The Eagle/Bear combination. After that you learn various miscellaneous forms, like Za Shi Chui, Wu Fa Pao, Ba Shi, Ba Shi Kung, etc. (Depending on the school)

The time spent in the animals depends on the student to grasp their meaning and learning how to express power in the strikes.

About the grappling; depending on the school, there's lots of chin na, chokes and throws. There's not much ground grappling as you are accostumed to see in the grappling arts.

[Yung Apprentice]

What does the stationary style look like? Is it the horse stance? In Hsing-Yi how are most of the stance like? Are they low, or standing high like a boxer?

[Xebsball]

Their main stance is San Ti Shi, if you look on emptyflower there are some articles and stuff about how do it.

[Leonidas]

Dont mean to start anything. But how would a Xingyi Fighter fair against Baguazhang. How would they handle a fight like that

[Felipe Bido]

We got our little bag of tricks, dear Leonidas:D

...don't think Hsing I has ALWAYS a straight pattern

[Yung Apprentice]

Does Hsing-Yi use a wooden dummy at all?

[SevenStar]

What are the animal forms supposed to teach the student?

[Felipe Bido]

Young Apprentice:
Nope. Hsing-I doesn't have the wooden dummy in his training. Depending on the school, working with sandbags and/or trees is emphasized.

Sevenstar:

The animal forms teach you how to use the five forces (the Five Elements) in every possible application. For example the Tiger Form (A double palm strike) teaches you how to use the splitting fist (A single palm strike) with both hands, stepping in a 45° angle. There are tons of applications in each animal form. The Five elements of Hsing I, and its animal forms don't teach you how to apply fixed techniques, but how to use the different forces and mechanics of the body in a fight.

[SevenStar]

You know that answer wasn't good enough for me man. What forces/mechanics does each animal teach?

[diego]

or can you look at it like that like is pounding fist,have to do with the action of the center line moving forward,or is it the opening/wiping"left hand"shuttingdown"rpunch hand" of the fist-
what i meant about center line moving forward say the pounding is heavier then the firingarrow fist "cant remember the dang name.

[diego]

You know that answer wasn't good enough for me man.
just cuz you can do that kick doesnt mean we cant kick your ass

[SevenStar]

Maybe not, but I got a nice shiny .357 that says it doesn't matter :D

[Felipe Bido]

LOL. Okay...

It's a little bit complicated, but let's start with the basics:

The Five Elements teach the applications of five forces, or "jings":

- Pi (Splitting) The force goes down in a circular pattern (as an ax splitting)
- Tswan (Drilling) The force goes up, like a spring of water.
- Beng (Crushing). The force follows a straight pattern
-Pao (Pounding). Sudden, exploding force, like a ball shot from a cannon
-Heng (Crossing). Circular pattern sideways. Like a ball rolling

The five are short forms, not unlike boxing drills (jab, uppercut, etc.) That you repeat over and over again.When you practice the five elements, you don't only practice techniques; they are excercises and drills, so you can learn and understand the intention and application of the different jings, along with the mechanics involved in each movement

The power of Hsing-I comes from a relaxed state (Allowing you to transfer all your body weight to your arm when you strike) a very good, firm stance, proper breathing and combined posture.-

When you combine two or more of these forces, you got the 12 animals. The animal forms expand your knowledge regarding the application of the Five Elements, and the intentions.

As you know, a detailed explanation of the mechanics involved in each animal form is impossible at the time, and I'll need pictures for a better understanding, but I'll do what I can, explaining techniques from some animals:

Tiger: Involves a double palm strike in a 45° degree angle (Good for stepping outside the opponents body, and strike the back/kidneys). You must learn how to use your whole body weight to transfer it to your strike. (Using the splitting force)

Monkey: Consists of quick steps and palm attacks, in a slapping fashion. Again, at the time of your attack, your shoulder drops, transfering the weight of your body to your palm; the strike is pretty wild. Those monkey slaps must not be underestimated. (Imagine a beotch slap with some 100+ lbs added.) (Splitting force, too)

Bear: A backfist with the fist turned, to the back of the neck. (Again, splitting force)

Horse: A straight fist to the chest, with the other hand supporting (a combination of Crushing/Pounding)

Lizard: A claw hand (three fingers curled), to the side of the face (torso of the opponent) (Crossing force)


Man..that was a lot of writing :D ...

I'll get some pics of each animal form to explain you better, if you want. Shoot me a PM and I'll get back to you as soon as possible

[Felipe Bido]

Ok, I will make a better picture of the use of the five fists. (Note that the examples I'll give are not 100% accurate...Hsing-I has its own way to move)

-Splitting: Like the slap that is used to break boards.

- Drilling: Like an uppercut, but coming out from the center, and twisting your wrist at the moment of the impact, to uproot the opponent.

-Crushing. A straight punch, with the knuckles turned sideways

-Pounding. Strike with a straight punch, and your body recoils, like when you shoot a gun.

-Crossing: Like a outward block, but twisting your wrist.

These are not exact images, but you'll get a hint.

[SevenStar]

mechanically speaking, what's the difference bewteen crushing and pounding?

[SevenStar]

you beat me to it

[Felipe Bido]

Crushing strikes and follows up (The ancient say: It's like and arrow...it gets to the target and sinks into it). You strike, and your fist goes all the way in.

Pounding strikes the surface. Gets to the target, and comes back with speed. (Like I said above: When you strike, you get to the target and your body kicks back, like when shooting a gun).

[Braden]

Chicken and Snake look awesome. ;)

[diego]

hey star you really packn

i cant wait to start goin to firing ranges just to help my rappn

[fa_jing]

1. With 5 different jings, there would be 4 + 3+ 2 + 1 = 10 combinations of two distinct jings, independant of the order of the two. If differences in order are taken into account, there would be 20 variations. How does that play out in the 12 animal styles? Are there any two animals that share the same jings? I'm just asking in case somebody happens to know off the top of their head.

2. Slightly OT: Remember 5 - element style from the movie "The Ghost-faced Killer" ? It looked a little like Hsing-Yi to me, any relation?

-FJ

[SevenStar]

ttt for an answer

[diego]

isit tisktisk???

[Kumkuat]

my xingyi knowledge is limited but in the most simpliest terms,
splitting fist is basically power from up to down
drilling fist is basically power from down to up
crushing fist is forward and back
pounding fist is inside to out
crossing fist is out to in

my $0.02

[Leonidas]

Hahaha "we have our tricks". But seriously, how would a Xingyi fighter fair against multiple attackers. Tell me about Pan Gen (sp?) I know it's not the same as circle walking since both styles have different approaches to fighting but i know it's not glorified Karate. How's the stepping.

[Leonidas]

A bit about the origins of Xingyi. On Su Yu Changs site it stated that it was a mix of Shaolin arts and Bajiquan. Sounds interesting, but dont know if it's exactly accurrate. It doesn't say much about who created it though. What i can say is that i doubt General Yue Fei created it.

[Yung Apprentice]

While reading the empty flower site, I recall reading something about Hsing-Yi has no blocking. At all, it made it sound. Is this true? WHat about deflection? With out blocking or deflection how does a Hsing-Yi practioer face off more than one attacker?

[Felipe Bido]

I'm back! :D

Let's see if I can remember all the questions:

Fah Jing: To that combination, add different steppings and positions, and you'll get where all those animals come from..For example, Snake has been described as "Drilling force going down". And remember, you don't only issue jing with the fists, you also use the feet, the head, the elbows, knees, hips, shoulders and the whole body.

About Pan Gen: Pan Gen is an Hsing I excercise. It's like the bagua circle, but smaller.- There are different variations of Pan Gen. Practicing Pan Gen is when you began to understand the part when I said: "Hsing I not always follows a straight pattern". You can check some of the variations at www.smilingtiger.com

The origin and development of Hsing I are not well known. The one responsible for creating it was Ji Longfeng. He said he found Yueh Fei's book to create the whole concept of Hsing I. The oldest Hsing I I know of is Dai Xinyiquan. You can check it's history at Jarek's website (http://www.homepages.msn.com/spiritst/xinyi/index.html ..IfI remember correctly)

Young Apprentice: About the blocking; in Hsing I there's no such thing as a "block-then attack" technique. The blocks and strikes are simultaneous, and the blocks are attacks, too. For example, if I'm going to use a splitting fist to block a straight punch from you, I can: a) Deflect your attack (with the up/down motion of the splitting fist), pushing you out of balance, or: b) Hit the wrist of the upcoming punch with a palm strike (splitting fist).

[Felipe Bido]

Ah..Hsing I Vs. Multiple attackers

Hsing-I is a very fierce and powerful style, with quick evasive moves. Hsing I can change positions suddenly, and strike at every directions. Most people think tha Hsing I is a "Only straight" style, but it's not. That's why they think "How am I going to face an attacker that's behind me/not in a straight line?". Hsing I attacks even when it retreats and the turnings are attacks, too.

[Leonidas]

Ok now my doubt are put to rest, sorta like Bagua-Lite. I just wish there was footage for both.

[Felipe Bido]

I'm glad to help :)

[Yung Apprentice]

Thank you very much you have been very helpful Felipe Bido! The school I'm looking at is a Hsing-Yi school that is taught by Dale Shinanagwa ( I think I spelled that right) Are you familiar with him?

[Felipe Bido]

I think I've heard about his school. Dale Shinanaga is from Tang Shou Tao Hsing I, right?

[Yung Apprentice]

Yep, thats him. Tang Shou Tao style, I've haven't heard of it though. I asked other Hsing-Yi practioners and they didn't know much about it. Does this style include all twleve forms of animals? Do you happen to know the lineage of Tang Shou Tao?

[Yung Apprentice]

I'm aware of the ShanXi, Hebei, and Honan styles. Which did this spring off of, how does it differ from others, and how close is it to the original style?

[Felipe Bido]

Tang Shou Tao Hsing I is not a system of Hsing I (Like Henan, Hebei or Shanxi). Its a school from Taiwan, founded by Master Hsu Hong Chi (Xu Hongji). His lineage comes from Hebei origins. It has been regarded as a Hebei/Shandong system.

It contains the five elements, the twelve animals and miscellaneous forms. I have always heard good things about that school, and all foreign students of Master Hsu that I know of (John Price, Mike Patterson, Tim Cartmell, etc) are very, very good.

Master Hsu Hong Chi studied Hsing I in Taiwan with Hung I Hsiang. Hung I Hsiang studied with Chang Jungfeng. He was a student of Li Cun Yi (Li Tsun I). You can find info on Li Cun Yi ("Single Broadsword Li") everywhere. He was a very famous Hsing I teacher. Chan Jungfeng fled to Taiwan during the revolution.

I don't know much about the lineage of the Hsing I teachers from Taiwan. I've concentrated more in the history of Hsing I in mainland China. But I am sure the names are correct.

Anyway, Tang Shou Tao is a very respectable school.

[diego]

KEEP THE MORE SPECIFIC ON PM.

what did sunlutang see to make him combine the 3i...
13 postures,5elements/12animals and the 8changes,do they hold the same seeable/unseen fighting applications,or isit just they have similar tension/relaxation in how they hold themself.

[diego]

:D

[Leonidas]

Are you the same Felipe Bido i saw doing forms on the Empty Flower site. I have that site memorized. Thats the coolest MA site i know of, even though it's devoted to one style i've never seen anything better. Call me crazy but i like Xingyiquan better than Bagua ie cooler. Even though there are accounts of Guo Yun Shen losing to Cheng Ting Hua and an even more unbelievable story of how he fought Dong Haichuan for 3 day? I'm babbling now but hey, this is about Hsing I.

[Leonidas]

Are you the same Felipe Bido i saw doing forms on the Empty Flower site. I have that site memorized. Thats the best designed MA site i know of, even though it's devoted to one style i've never seen anything better. Call me crazy but for some reason i like Xingyiquan better than Bagua ie: cooler. Even though there are accounts of Guo Yun Shen losing to Cheng Ting Hua and an even more unbelievable story of how he fought Dong Haichuan for 3 days? That's why i brought up the questions before. True or not I'm babbling now. Thats all i wanted to know

[Felipe Bido]

Hush Diego!:D

I got a theory about your question on Sun Lutang:

There are 3 levels of force in the "internal" martial arts:

1- Evident Force (You can see the power from the outside; the movements are fast and powerful, the stepping is hard and audible)

2- Hidden force (The movements are flowing and smooth, fast, but relaxed the stepping is soft)

3)- "Mysterious" force [I don't remember the EXACT translation] (The movements are very slow and relaxed)

It's been said that Hsing-I begins with the first level and then progresses to the other levels; that Bagua begins with the second level and that Tai Chi begins with the third level. Maybe Sun Lutang saw that kind of similarity betwee the three and combined them for his own wish of knowledge.

I'll expand the info on the three forces by PM. Now I am only writing what I remember.


Leonidas:

Yeah, I'm Felipe Bido from Emptyflower (How many Felipe Bido's can you meet in the world? :D my name is not very common). Yeah, the site is amazing. David has excellent designing skills. I sent him a message on sept, 2000, and we began to share info and expand the Hsing-I website he already had. It's been a great experience for me: I've got in touch with very experienced and well known practicioners, and my knowledge of Hsing I has expanded greatly.

I had decided to put a pictorial of two chicken forms sometime this year, and there are more articles and galleries on the way. So, keep checking the website :)

I got a theory on Guo/Dong fight, too!. I think that what actually happened was that Guo Yun Shen went to Dong's house for a three-day visit. They fought a little, went to eat, then fought a little more, sat back for a cup of tea, then fought another round, etc. Then, the accounts of the visit were stretched out of proportion.

[JerryLove]

Any of the internals are good. also recommend some form of silat. I hear goooood things about it all the time. Why make yourself choose? Our program includes Silat and Niejia. :)