free weights vs machines

[ged]

ive always heard that free weights are better for building muscle because of the utilisation of stabilising muscles.. i was talking to a guy at a party last night (there goes my credibility) who reckons that for certain exercises, eg flyes, its better to use machines, as they provide resistance throughout the whole range of motion. exercises like squats and benchpress dont apply obviously, because resistance is equal throughout the whole thing.... but exercises that are circular...... yeah you get my point.

any ideas?

[ElPietro]

I believe 99% of all exercises are better done with free weights, but I too have heard that flies are better done on a machine or cables. This is because the range of motion is greater, i'm not sure if it actually recruites more muscle fibre or not though. Flies are an isolation exercise so there aren't many stabilizers helping you. But on major compound lifts like squats, deadlifts etc you should be using free weights.

[nospam]

The one thing machines offer is consistent form of movement. When using free-weights, many do not follow such form or move the limbs in unison.

Free-weights provide a greater ROM, as you can drop lower than the height of the bench, whether that be vertical or horizontal.

I prefer free-weights, but utilise the pec-deck, for instance because it allows for a variation of hand position- some pec-decks have pads while others have bars to grasp. I prefer the padded version myself when on the pec-deck, as it feels the strain is more involved throughout the muscle group. I also only use very light weights on this machine...used more for definition than bulk.

nospam.
:cool:

[Je Lei Sifu]

Both free weight and cables have their own advantageous. If you are look to really mass up, it is better to use free weight and strict movement. However, if you would like to obtain more definition or striation (sp?) the cables would be better for you. This is not to say that with free weight you can not develop definition nor that cables will not give you some mass. I personally like to use both free weight and cable. I always pre-exhaust the muscle by doing isolated routines prior to doing compound routines with free weights, from there I use the cables at the end of my routine.

Ex. Chest: Incline or flat flies. Dumbbell/barbell bench press (usually Incline for dumbell and flat for bench). Pec deck or Cable crossovers. Ending with Dips (focusing on chest development)

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[Kumkuat]

You can only get this "definition" by lowering your body fat while maintaining your muscle mass. You can't get it by working out on a certain weight machine, just do your routine on the free weights and eat less. Maybe add a cardio day in the week too.

Man Jei, you do a lot for your chest. Is that all one day?

[IronFist]

Kumkuat is right. Cables or machines have nothing to do with definition. Your muscles don't go "hey guys, we're being use on a cable cross over, let's produce more striations" :)

Definition/striations are directly proportional to three things:

1. Muscle mass. If you don't have any muscle to begin with, you're not going to have any definition.

2. Body fat percentage. Your bodyfat % needs to be low enough to see the muscle clearly (compare: Bruce Lee vs. Sumo wrestler)

3. Genetics. Some people are just better suited for definition than others. Ever seen Franco Columbo, an Arnold era bodybuilder? His chest was massively split between upper and lower pecs... this really had nothing to do with incline bench or flat bench or anything, and 100 other men who copied his training, nutrition and drug use exactly would not achieve this same definition. His genetic code somewhere just said to have a massive split there, and so with training he was able to show it. He had a bad ass chest, too :)

Well, this concludes IronFist's defintion 101 lecture. Study hard.

Iron

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Je Lei Sifu
I always pre-exhaust the muscle by doing isolated routines prior to doing compound routines with free weights, from there I use the cables at the end of my routine.

Please take this critisicm as an attempt to aid you. This method is pretty much the opposite of what I believe you should be doing. Isolation exercises should be done last from all sources I've heard of. Training as you said can lead to injury as you are relying much more on stabilizers and secondary muscle groups. If you truly want to grow I'd focus on compound movements and minimize isolation exercises.

Also, ditto to what they said about striation and definition...this is only a ratio of muscle mass/bodyfat...method of lift isn't important.

[Merryprankster]

Machines suck unless you are training around an injury.

Freeweights uber alles.

Actually, if you want to kick your own ass try sandbags.

[greyseal]

Certain machines don't allow the body to move in the way that it should. For example, if you benchpress, you'll notice that the motion is not strictly up and dopwn, but angles up toward the head slightly; this is natural, and can't be done with a machine. Careful with the shoulders if you're doing flyes on a bench or with cables. Free weights are, I think, better, unless, as someone said, you have an injury. Just remember, the Iron doesn't lie.

[Silumkid]

ged,

One thing that hasn't been touched on yet which I figured I would jump on is one of your comments about resistance being equal throughout. Technically, this is correct. The resistance in and of itself does not change. However, everyone has what is known as the "strength curve". Now while yours may be different from mine (for example, let's say we are benching...my 'sticking point' may be at the bottom of the move, yours may be halfway through) everybody has it to some degree. This is a long-winded way to make my point that this is supposedly what Nautilus machines were designed to overcome by use of a odd-shaped cam. Anyhow, my opinion is that both free weights and machines have their uses (not only to work around injuries) and there is nothing wrong at all with cycling the routines as long as you are attaining your goals.

Hope that contributed something.

[nospam]

Silumkid,

I agree with changing one's work out, including the machinery used. Muscle growth plateaus easily, so mixing things up helps to work the muscles differently, forcing (if you will) them to respond.

Using a combination of free weights and machines is a great way to a picture perfect end. I've found that the tension and feel from machine to machine differs, and we all know there exists a variety of machines to chose from.

Although free-weights is my foundation, bar-bells and machines have a place.

nospam.
:cool:

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by nospam
Silumkid,

I agree with changing one's work out, including the machinery used. Muscle growth plateaus easily, so mixing things up helps to work the muscles differently, forcing (if you will) them to respond.


*sigh*

[ijedi]

Hello,

Being that I am a personal trainer (certified by the American Council on Exercise and the American College of Sports Medicine), a former sniper in the US Marine Corps, and have been training in the martial arts for over 20 years, I know a little something about exercise and it’s relationship to fighting.

I must say that most of what I read here is inaccurate and misleading. I know this is not intentional, so please don’t take my comments personally.

>You can't get [definition] by working out on a certain weight machine, just do your routine on the free weights and eat less. Maybe add a cardio day in the week too.

While Ironfist was correct in saying that definition was due to Muscle mass, Body fat percentage, and Genetics…this is far too simple an answer and what one doesn’t understand is that the body can be programmed. By specific diet and exercise the body can actually be change (to a certain extent). However, I keep hearing more arguments speaking to physical aesthetics and not physical function. This is a completely different kind of training.

And as for EATING LESS!!! This is the worst kind of advice to give a fighter. It is not the amount you eat as much as the composition of the foods that you consume [carbs, proteins, fats] and the source [specific type of food]. Diet is one of the most misunderstood aspects of health. Just because you look good doesn’t mean you are healthy. Calories, grams, and other quick fixes are terrible wastes of time and energy. Oh yeah, don’t listen to 99% of ALL doctors regarding nutrition. They don’t know a thing about what they speak of (except that 1% out there…you know who you are). One cannot program a diet for someone without taking into account data specific to the individual: Height/weight, body composition, age, years of training, HISTORY OF DIET, allergies, climate, lifestyle (type of work, hours spent working, etc), type of exercise…the list goes on and on. Anyone who does not ask these questions and just kicks out a diet for you is doing you a disservice.

>This method [of pre-exhaustion] is pretty much the opposite of what I believe you should be doing.

Actually, Je Lei Sifu, described a good strategy for bodybuilding. However, I think he misunderstood the principle involved. Simple motions done before compound motions should be done more to the muscle group that assists in the lift. For example, when you exhaust your triceps (simple motion) and then perform a bench press (compound motion) your chest must perform more of the lift as you would normally being that your triceps cannot be called into the lift.

But again, from what I have read most of you have been reading Muscle and Fitness and not journals where they discuss athletic training. In this I mean you are more interested in looking good and not the function of motion.

>If you truly want to grow I'd focus on compound movements and minimize isolation exercises.

WHY? You have to stop listening to what bodybuilders say and watch what they do. A lot of them will mislead you. If you ever get a chance to watch what competition level bodybuilders (not amateurs) do in their routine it would probably surprise you that more often than not it is not what is published in magazines.

>method of lift isn't important

It is EXTREMELY important!!! Cables, machines, and free weights all have different lines of resistance and being that they are positioned in different ways, different lines of gravity play a role. No matter what your lifting goals are method cannot be ignored.

>this is natural, and can't be done with a machine.

Really? What machines are you talking about? You must remember that most gyms do not buy machines and other physical therapy level equipment (which can be very expensive). Please don’t make a judgment on all machines based on limited experience. Machines can be integral in any anaerobic training program. Not to mention most people I see lifting free weights utilize a ROM that far exceeds the purpose of the exercise and begs for injury. Machines can also be good for teaching proper form to less experienced lifters.

>both free weights and machines have their uses (not only to work around injuries) and there is nothing wrong at all with cycling the routines as long as you are attaining your goals.

This hit the nail on the head. You must begin with the goal of training. Cycling (or as it is known in training lingo “Periodization”) is a must. Start with a 6 week block at a time and decide what you are going to train for (strength, speed, power, endurance, etc…) and then decide how to attain that specific quality. Don’t think you are going to design the ULTIMATE workout routine that will do everything for you and then call it a day. Real athletic training does not work like that. Also, don’t forget all of the other factors that come into play: sleep, rest, stress, diet, climate, age, years of training, type of training, availability of equipment, etc. etc. etc…

Thanks.

[IronFist]

ijedi said
For example, when you exhaust your triceps (simple motion) and then perform a bench press (compound motion) your chest must perform more of the lift as you would normally being that your triceps cannot be called into the lift.


That's the worst advice I've ever heard. First of all, if you exhaust your triceps, you will be UNABLE to perform a bench press at all. Even if you are, the weight will be drastically less, which will in turn work your chest even less than if your triceps were fresh. In compound movements, one muscle does not make up for another one that is tired. If you don't believe me, Mr. Certified Trainer (oooh, aren't we all impressed. I'm certified too but I don't go around flaunting it), go exhaust your triceps and then see how much you can bench.

Iron

[rubthebuddha]

only one muscle group can straighten an arm -- the tricep. period. if any other muscle could, it'd be on the back of your arm, too. so if your benching with little or no tricep left, all you can really do is shrug your shoulders and chest forward.

[ijedi]

>First of all, if you exhaust your triceps, you will be UNABLE to perform a bench press at all

Obviously you have never trained with a body builder! I said “PRE”-exhaust. Not complete exhaustion.

>Even if you are, the weight will be drastically less, which will in turn work your chest even less than if your triceps were fresh.

Again you are falling into the trap that more weight works more. This is simply not true. The Rest Interval and the order of the exercise has more to do with this than you think.

>In compound movements, one muscle does not make up for another one that is tired
>go exhaust your triceps and then see how much you can bench.

I am sorry, but if you want to say you are a certified trainer. I don’t believe you because of what you have said here. When someone does a sit-up and their ab’s fatigue what muscle helps with the motion? Their back muscles! This is why a lot of people’s back hurts when they perform more ab work than they can.

As for the latter comment…I see this almost every day! This is a technique used by professional body builders. I did not say that I use the technique myself, as it is more for aesthetics, but it can be very helpful.

>oooh, aren't we all impressed

You need to grow up!!!

>I'm certified too but I don't go around flaunting it.

What organization are you certified by? Because if you don’t know some of these training methods I would say you sent away for it somewhere.

The only reason I mentioned that I was certified is because I have been trained and do this for a living.

Thanks

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by ijedi
Really? What machines are you talking about? You must remember that most gyms do not buy machines and other physical therapy level equipment (which can be very expensive). Please don’t make a judgment on all machines based on limited experience. Machines can be integral in any anaerobic training program. Not to mention most people I see lifting free weights utilize a ROM that far exceeds the purpose of the exercise and begs for injury. Machines can also be good for teaching proper form to less experienced lifters.


why not just teach those less experienced lifters correct form on a free weight? I see people using bad form on both free weights and machines anyway.

[ElPietro]

Just a few comments in general...

First off welcome to the forum, hopefully you will be able to contribute positively...

I am not certified but have seen so many certified trainers preaching some of the worst bodybuilding myths I've ever heard. So I don't put much faith in certifications. I know what I know and don't need a piece of paper to tell me that. What I speak of is usually backed up by hours of research. If there is some point I make that someone feels is incorrect I always would urge them to point it out and give a good 'case' on why they feel it is incorrect.

Your attitude could use some work though. Saying that people here are spouting incorrect info and are getting their stuff from crappy mags isn't the best way to start here...especially when it's untrue.

I agree with you on the point that compound exercises are superior, as I've already stated that in this thread anyway...but then you contradict yourself and say pre-exhaust your triceps which is saying that you should do isolation before compound. This in my opinion and in the opinion of many others who's opinion I respect would disagree with you. Compound movements are superiour because you are applying stress to much more than one muscle group, you are working stabilizing muscles, connective tissues and secondary muscles. If you pre-exhaust one of the secondary muscles all the other benefits of doing the compound lift will suffer because the weight you lift will be less. However, if you do you compound lift first to failure you are going to exhaust all the stabilizers and secondary muscles first as they are smaller musclegroups and you will be left with the major muscle group in the compound lift anyway.

You said the order of the exercise has a lot to do with things. Other than the order of exhaustion it has nothing to do with anything. That is simple logic although I welcome any comments that can prove me wrong on this. The rest interval can have an impact as the longer you rest the more you give time to recover before your next set which will allow you to lift more. There are many ways to work out dependant on your goals so there is no "right" way to work out so when you speak in absolutes I have to question your knowledge in general. There are many "wrong" ways to work out though as many things can be damaging.

You say periodization is a must. I have a lot of respect for this training method although I don't think it's a must. It is just another form of training developed by russians which works. There are so many methods to train and different people will have slightly different results.

You said something about muscle mass, bf % and genetics and how simple a response this is, and how through diet and training your body can be changed. I don't know anywhere were someone said it couldn't be. You didn't elaborate at all either so if it's so simple then please feel free to add more. Too me it IS a simple process, if you want to be ripped then you must have muscle to be seen, and you must have less fat to not obscure the view of the muscle, the shape in which that muscle grows IS genetically determined. Other than a doctor's scalpel the only thing you can do is reduce bodyfat and increase muscle mass. Please feel free to try to prove that statement wrong. I will accept nice detailed scientific answers...

I agree machines/free weights etc all have there place. If I'm giving advice the first thing I would say is do what you are comfortable with. Although, all things being equal free weights will teach you proper form if you have done your studying or working with someone else knowledgeable in the physiology of bodybuilding. Also, they will work much more than just your target muscle as the ROM isn't set by a machine so you need to recruit more secondary and stabilizer muscle tissue to aid in the lift. But again machines are also beneficial in the case of injury or minor strains, or simply if it is more efficient time-wise to get a complete workout in. If you aren't sure of the proper form it's better to use a machine than risk lifting with poor form and potentially injuring yourself.

You say, regarding diet, that eating less is a no no, and you should focus more on the quality of food and the macro breakdowns, ie carbs/protein/fat. Yeah it is very important to know your macro breakdown of food, as each macro works and has different affects within your body and is important to manipulate dependent on your goals. But once your diet is straightened out depending on your goal and you have cut out all the garbage such as sugar, you ABSOLUTELY must pay attention to the number of calories. Diet is simple, if you want to lose weight and your diet is in order you must cut calories. 3500 calories = 1lb so if you cut 500 per day you will lose 1lbs per week. If you want to bulk up then add 500 cals per day and you will add one lb per week. Again this is once your diet is in order, which can be a complex process depending on what type of body you currently have and eating habits etc.

Lastly, you keep referring to competition bodybuilders. Depending on what level you are speaking of competition bodybuilders are the WORST people to model your workout on. If you are speaking of the pros then they are able to do what they do because of anabolic intake. If you are one of the people that think there are natural Mr. O wannabes then you are wrong, you can now go to the end of the line. If you are referring to others that enter local and national comps for natural BBers and they actually are adhering to their principles then that is different. I have compared notes with competition bodybuilders before, and have seen many people that are at that level and seen how they work and don't think I'm missing anything. Pretty much the same training. It's the guys that are on anabolics and do 10 exercises for their biceps that are giving bodybuilding a bad rap.

Anyway, please view my comments for what they are worth, just trying to make sure we are all on the same page here. There are many ways to become certified...and most of it is just ordering some books and taking a test. Half of the tests aren't comprehensive and anyone could become certified quite easily. So, I welcome any comments you make but will not accept the, "I'm certified so I know better." BS. If you can back up what you say with science or logic then I will be more than willing to accept what you say. But if you will just make general statements without proof then you aren't really knowledgeable, but just repeating what you may have heard from some other source, misinformed or not.

Don't take this post as insulting or condescending...just want to make sure what we post is as accurate as possible. There are quite a few people here that come for advice and if those that claim they know what they are taking about disagree on some fairly basic points then we have problems. Lood forward to your reply!

[IronFist]

I said:

>First of all, if you exhaust your triceps, you will be UNABLE to perform a bench press at all

To which ijedi replied:
Obviously you have never trained with a body builder! I said “PRE”-exhaust. Not complete exhaustion.

Uh, I've trained with numerous bodybuilders, and even talked with some pros. Pre-exhaustion is not used for assisting muscles. An example of true pre-exhaustion training is fatiguing the pecs with an isolation movement (dumbell flies, for example) and THEN doing bench press. Or, pre-exhausting the quads with 40 or 50 reps of leg extensions and then doing squats. I still say that fatiguing the triceps in a manner you described won't work.

I said:
>Even if you are, the weight will be drastically less, which will in turn work your chest even less than if your triceps were fresh.

ijedi replied
Again you are falling into the trap that more weight works more. This is simply not true. The Rest Interval and the order of the exercise has more to do with this than you think.

I didn't say that at all. My "weight is less" comment meant that you won't be able to use heavy enough weight to adaquately stimulate the chest. Now before you tell me weight doesn't matter, let me stop you here. Weight matters, to some extent, especially in the bodybuilding training you keep making refrence to. Otherwise, if weight didn't matter, pro BB'ers could build their chests with pushups.

I said:
>In compound movements, one muscle does not make up for another one that is tired
>go exhaust your triceps and then see how much you can bench.

ijedi replied
I am sorry, but if you want to say you are a certified trainer. I don’t believe you because of what you have said here. When someone does a sit-up and their ab’s fatigue what muscle helps with the motion? Their back muscles! This is why a lot of people’s back hurts when they perform more ab work than they can.

That is probably the most anaomically wrong thing I've heard yet. And you're doubting that I'm certified?!! Your back does not assit a situp at all. That's like saying your triceps help you do bicep curls.

You need to grow up!!!

Sorry, but I don't like your "I'm certified so I know it all" attitude.

The only reason I mentioned that I was certified is because I have been trained and do this for a living.

Oh, so because you do it for a living, you must be correct. Sorry. It's my main job, too. Note that I say "main" cuz I'm still in college, so while I don't really do it "for a living," I still do it for extra spending money.

I can't wait. Now are you going to come back and say that cuz I'm in college I lack the experience of someone as old as yourself? At least I don't think back mucles perform crunches.

Iron

[ijedi]

>Why not just teach those less experienced lifters correct form on a free weight? I see people using bad form on both free weights and machines anyway.

Just like martial arts there are teachers who would teach incorrectly. The world would be a much better place if everyone were taught correctly. I still see people performing exercises that are trainers that do things wrong.

Not to say that there is only ONE way to perform an exercise. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

A good trainer (like a good sifu, sensei, guro, etc.) goes a long way. Even pro boxers have trainers for fights.

>you contradict yourself and say pre-exhaust your triceps which is saying that you should do isolation before compound.

I did not contradict myself. I simply was saying that pre-exhaustion is a valid body building technique. Not to be used as the core paradigm itself, rather it does have a purpose at a particular stage of training.

When I say pre-exhaust the triceps let me clarify…
Bench press utilizes the triceps and pectorals (among other stabilizers). If you work your triceps prior to performing a bench press, the triceps have less to do with the actual lift and therefore you will not have to lift as much weight to directly effect the pectoral muscle as the triceps will not be able to recruit much strength for the lift.

Do I think it has any place in training a fighter? No. However, this is still a valid body-building technique and if used correctly can be great for training for a show.

>Other than the order of exhaustion [the order of exercises] has nothing to do with anything.

How about recruitment for lifts? If you are going to do heavy power cleans and you do squats prior to that. I would say the order has a tremendous impact on how you lift. Your point is not well made being that the order of exhaustion is precisely why the order of exercises is important in designing a program. Not to mention compound and simple motions, larger and smaller muscle groups, etc.

When you see long endurance training routines (i.e., tri-athletes) you see how important the order of exercises are.

If anything, my posts can be read as VERY general. I do not prescribe absolutes.


>There are so many methods to train and different people will have slightly different results.

Yes, however when you are talking about training a fighter it is something that has been done for centuries. Russians were the first ones to codify it, yet it has been utilized by many cultures in Southasia and Southeast Asia for hundreds of years. They applied it to training with the seasons and thereby being in harmony with nature.

>competition bodybuilders are the WORST people to model your workout on.

I whole heartedly agree with this. Unless of course you want to be a body builder. And then don’t think you can compete without steroids and other very damaging substances.

If I understand correctly, we are martial artists here. We should train like fighters, not people that want to be in a magazine ad.

>I still say that fatiguing the triceps in a manner you described won't work.

Won’t work for what? If it is isolation you are speaking of, you are wrong.

>you won't be able to use heavy enough weight to adequately stimulate the chest

What is adequate? Just because you can’t bench as much as you can when you are fresh? This just means that when you are fresh you are relying more on your triceps and deltoids to assist in the lift and not focusing on your pectorals.

>Your back does not assit a situp at all.

You mean to tell me you have never seen someone buck themselves on the ground and use the ricochet to assist them getting up? This is commonly called ‘the kip’ and was used in many military and police physical fitness exams until the last 5 years when they monitored “cheating” the sit-up. And a good thing too. This can cause a lot of lower lumbar injuries.

>That's like saying your triceps help you do bicep curls.

No, however I am sure you have seen people buck their hips while performing bicep curls in an attempt to get the weight up because they were lifting weight too heavy for them. Bad form.

>Sorry, but I don't like your "I'm certified so I know it all" attitude.

First off, I never said that I know it all only that I was certified. Perhaps listing qualifications is looked down upon here. I apologize if my remarks were out of line.

>At least I don't think back muscles perform crunches.

I never stated anything about your age or your experience. Only the content and the context of what you wrote.

But I can see that there are many people here like IronFist that is not interested in actual discourse and understanding of how auxiliary training aids in the martial arts.

Name calling and immature comments are not something I need in my life.

So I will do you all a favor and retire to another forum. ElPietro you have my full endorsement and you have the floor for the remainder of the year.

Cheers and goodluck.

[prana]

I am not certified but have seen so many certified trainers preaching some of the worst bodybuilding myths I've ever heard. So I don't put much faith in certifications. I know what I know and don't need a piece of paper to tell me that. What I speak of is usually backed up by hours of research.

Yup, being in the army and having a piece of paper means less to me than the way you respect the other dudes & dudettes ere :D Every living being is your teacher, especially if they have a differing view, including yourself.

Unless of course, you are Ralek in disguise, then you are allowed because he is fully licensed! Muahahaha


Name calling and immature comments are not something I need in my life. Ditto, we neither :D

[ElPietro]

*When I say pre-exhaust the triceps let me clarify…
Bench press utilizes the triceps and pectorals (among other stabilizers). If you work your triceps prior to performing a bench press, the triceps have less to do with the actual lift and therefore you will not have to lift as much weight to directly effect the pectoral muscle as the triceps will not be able to recruit much strength for the lift. *

I still disagree with this technique...compound movements will affect more parts of your body then isolations exercises. If you pre-exhaust your triceps, in your example, then you will use less weight on your bench, but with your triceps exhausted you will be getting most of your strength from your pecs. That's basically what you said and is correct, but I ask why would you want to do that? In your example you will have be making a smaller lift because ONE of the aiding muscles is pre-exhausted, which means the smaller lift will be inferior with regard to many of the stabilizers that WEREN'T pre-exhausted.

This is why I and many others believe compound movements are superior. And I disagree that all the BB mags promote this. Usually you see some article on how to get huge arms and it will be like 10 different exercises for biceps, which is absolutely rediculous. I know many people who do absolutely no direct bicep work. And they have huge biceps because of the compound movements they do and the fact that biceps are worked with your back. Biceps are extremely small and working on them too much at once is just plain overtraining.

I said:
Other than the order of exhaustion [the order of exercises] has nothing to do with anything.

You responded: *How about recruitment for lifts? If you are going to do heavy power cleans and you do squats prior to that. I would say the order has a tremendous impact on how you lift. Your point is not well made being that the order of exhaustion is precisely why the order of exercises is important in designing a program. Not to mention compound and simple motions, larger and smaller muscle groups, etc. *

You are saying the exact same thing I just said. I single out your initial statement...although I can't find it now because you made it seem like order had some "special" affect other than just the order of exhaustion...which is simply the order of recruitment.

I wrote: method of lift isn't important

You wrote: *It is EXTREMELY important!!! Cables, machines, and free weights all have different lines of resistance and being that they are positioned in different ways, different lines of gravity play a role. No matter what your lifting goals are method cannot be ignored. *

Ok, I don't really like when you take fragments of a statement out of context. If you read the whole statement you would see that I was talking strictly about striations and bf percentages. Your body will not lose bodyfat differently because you are doing machine or free weights or cables...your fat won't even have a clue what you are doing.

Anyway, I think we just have a lot of different ways of saying the same things. There are many sources of BB info...journals aren't always the best either...remember they are static and much information and new studies haven't been included in journals even a year or two old.

Sure this is a martial arts forum but this is a fitness section and need not necessarily always apply to MA. If someone asks a question about weight training then I will answer it with regard to weight training in itself. People will differentiate between their MA training, weight training, and weight training for MA.

It takes a long time to get big...people always think they will blow up overnight so they don't do some programs that would be of great aid to them. You could lift to failure all year long but if you don't eat you won't get big in any event. So I think there are many sports training methods for each sport.

[Robinf]

Hey Guys,

Mind if I throw in a little physics and see if what I've come up with flies.

First of all, the back shouldn't come into play when doing crunches or situps. Crunches should only work the abs (and the hams if you go Janda--is that the right one). Situps work the abs to a point and the hip flexors the rest of the way. Here's my thought: the back gets sore, as Jedi pointed out, but because of improper alignment and improper stretching during the exercise, not because the muscle is actively working to help the body sit up. How does that fly?

As far as bucking the hips to do curls, you're not working your hip flexors, but making use of Momentum. Your hipflexors are only engaged in the action of creating the momentum, not in the lift or the build. If the lifter uses this action, he/she is not using maximum efficiency for the bicep muscle and will take longer to achieve what could be achieved using maximum efficiency in lifting.

As for eating and losing weight. Coming from one who has eaten less in order to lose weight (55 lbs), it works, but for a little thing called Newton's Law of Thermodynamics.

Well, do my thoughts fly right or wrong?

Robin

[ElPietro]

Yes back shouldn't get sore from ab work unless done improperly. They are opposing muscle groups. The end.

Not sure what you mean referring to Newton...been awhile since I was in highschool which is when I last studied him... :)

But by saying you can lose weight by eating yes, then you are correct. If you mean that if you want to lose weight should you eat less...then the answer is yes, and no. First you should examine your diet and cut out as much of the empty carbs as you can, so refined sugars, alcohols, etc. Replace those empty carbs with something useful which may mean you are eating more food, but good food, you may begin to lose weight. If you are gaining then cut down on some calories...if you are staying the same weight cut some more calories, try not to cut more than 500-1000 cals at a time though. So by cutting calories you may be eating less but still providing your body with all the nutrients it needs. You will slowly stop losing weight as the new caloric level you are at becomes what your body requires to maintain your current weight. If you are happy with how you look just keep everything the same...if you want to lose more drop another 500 cals, and repeat the process.

[IronFist]

The only way to hurt you back doing a crunch is if your form is HORRIBLE. The back muscles aren't invovled at all as far as contractions go.

Iron

[ged]

id like to hear more about hurting your back during situps. my girlfriends been doing sport since she was a kid, and she cant do situps without hurting her back - heaps of ppl have looked at her form and cant find anything wrong. personally, i can hurt my neck if i put my hands behind my head, but a suggestion to keep my chin on my chest got rid of that.

[IronFist]

This might be a stupid question, but is she doing them on something soft? You should never do situps or crunches on like a hard wood floor or anything. Always use a mat or a carpeted floor.

Make sure she's not just "sitting up" but that she is actively curling her rip cage toward her hips. That is what the abs do. Tell her to imagine rolling up a piece of paper (like you're making it into a tube). I know there's a better analogy but I can't remember it. hehe.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Make sure she's using controlled movements and she's rising as a result of her abs contracting. Don't bounch off the floor or use momentum of any kind. Make sure her hips are tucked in (see above about curling the rib cage toward the abs).

Iron

[prana]

well there is a bit of truth in that the antagonist muscles provide some control. Otherwise, it is difficult to keep to form. But for this to be true, you must have an INCREDIBLY retarded muscle imbalance to begin with.

But practically, for most peoples, the balance should be more than adequate to keep from being sore unless your form is ... well questionable ?!

[ElPietro]

She may have some alignment problems in her spine as well. There are many reasons you can experience pain doing situps.

[jaz1069]

ijedi:

You are so correct!

I train 5 days a week and while I enjoy free weights and find machines sometimes more work then necessary, I was not getting the response from my tri-ceps I was looking for until I found a machine at Life Time that totally isolated that one exercise.

To completely limit ones workout routine from machine is almost as bad as saying..."my m.a. is the best...why learn ground work?"

Semper Fi