What do you think? (warning Grappling/CMA post)

[Shaolindynasty]

I've been in quite a few "street fights" up until maybe 2 years ago, I had a wild teenage years. I got taken to the ground once that I can think of and that was cause I got jumped and nobody tried to grapple me they tried to stomp me. The other times I can think of going to the ground was due to me punching the other guy, I instinctively followed into the "mount" position and proceeded to pund the guy in the back of the head. Yet another 2 times I remember me and my friend stomping people on the ground but I was standing. When I look back on all the streetfights I had only a few ended on the ground and no grappling was used. A couple of fights have been ended with one or 2 well placed punches. So for streetfighting is grappling nessacary? I don't think so. Would it help? Maybe. When you talk about experienced martial artists the whole thing changes. "Ground fighters" are highly specialized in what they do, that is why they are so well respected. Similar to boxers, boxers only use hands but they are so good at their paticular chosen techniques that they are respected. For a Kungfu man it is important to figure what your specialty is and develop it to the max and find out about the strengths and weakness of other styles and how to win using your best techniques, not your weak abilities in other styles or techniques. Simply put make them fight your fight.

[Braden]

Do you mean grappling or ground-fighting? The two are different.

Based on your argument, you can not help but draw the same conclusions about kungfu (or whatever it is you do) as you did about 'grappling' - since you fared well without either.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think I would draw that conclusion for Kungfu also. I look at alot of posts and advertisements that say it is nessacary to learn "ground fighting", which means submission to them, to survive a street fight. I guess looking back you don't really need much of anything cause most street fights aren't exactly high skilled. So it isn't nessacary to learn submission if you don't want to and the same goes for Kungfu. The stuff about the martial artists is a little different. If someone is a great submission fighter and you were a great puncher would you just try to grapple them? That is bad strategy, shouldn't you make the grappler fight your fight instead of giving him what he wants by trying to fight like him.

Braden- I used grappling cause most people think of ground fighting, I will use submission instead since that is the stuff I'm talking about. Oh and thanks for the heads up you gave me about that certain org. a few months back. I got things sorted out with that now.

[LEGEND]

SHAOLIN...that is correct! Average street fights are usually against unskilled people...any type of martial arts will help.

BUT...let's assume u want to be well rounded. I classify people falling into 2 categories...u're either a NATURAL GRAPPLER or a NATURAL STRIKER. For most CMA people...they seem to be NATURAL STRIKERs...so there only need for grappling is to DEFEND AGAINST TACKLEs/TAKEDOWNs...basic freestyle wrestling will help. For GRAPPLERs...they need to work on GETTING THE TAKEDOWN immediately...so they don't observe so many strikes. People have to understand that no matter how much boxing or kickboxing they learn...not everyone can be a STRIKER.

[Shaolindynasty]

Legend- I agree, that's what Ive been saying. For those with good striking why would they try to grapple(submission) a grappler when that would be like using their weakest weapon against their opponents strongest? I guess maybe one of the reason most Kungfu guys lose MMA comps is due to poor strategy

[SevenStar]

Is this in regard to MMA or the street? In the street, you won't have the slightest idea if your opponent is trained in anything until the altercation begins. I'd rather be well rounded and prepared, than to assume my striking will be enough. I can grapple, but I'm a striker by nature. Do I want to go to the ground in a fight? heck no, but if I do have to, I can handle myself there. It's not that you try to grapple a grappler. If you've ever sparred with a good grappler, then you know how hard it can be to stay on your feet. In the event that I do have to play his game, I'm gonna show him that he's not the only one that's good at it.

[SevenStar]

nevermind, I just scrolled up and read Legend's post

[Ryu]

Learning to grapple and groundfight is not just about submission.
The key elements that I feel groundfighting gives you are the ability to ESCAPE grappling positions you might find youself in, and also have positional dominance in order to pummel, or get up and run.
Transitions, escapes, body movement on the ground, endurance when you're there, etc. These are what is important in a street fight. What better way to learn to really escape a grappler then by training grappling?? They're the ones that HAVE to escape from each other on a constant basis.

Ryu

[neptunesfall]

now this is a thread i really like. before i start, just to clarify -
grappling i use to refer to stand up techniques, ie throws, sweeps, etc.
as far as my own opinons and experiences....a lot of this has been previously said, but oh well.
striking and grappling, together, help to add up to a well rounded fighter.
the more techniques you train, the more theories you can apply in a real situation.
from a personal standpoint, the admixture of the two - striking and grappling - is natural.
yang leads to yin as yin leads to yang. the theories of both striking and grappling
should be exploited to the full potential of the individual.
your strengths should be trained and exploited in a necessary situation,
as your weakness should be trained and exploited in a necessary situation.
a bit vague, i know, but then again, it's not. yin and yang.

[Martial Joe]

Lets say you get on the ground...A guy gets on top of you and start ground and pounding your anus...

Would you want to know how to get out of that?

Or no because grappling is worthless in a streetfight?

Use your brain please.

[neptunesfall]

that depends on whether or not your name is Ralek. :eek:

[Merryprankster]

What Ryu said.

Any grappling style is a good addition to whatever striking based style you might do. Although, if I had to pick, I'd pick judo for most people off the top of my head.

Barring that, the three most important things are:

1. Defending leg attacks.
2. Defending throws.
3. Learning how to get back up.


If you can do those three things, consistently, against good grapplers, I think you're pretty well off.

[Jaguar Wong]

Shaolindynasty,
Just as a point of reference...how long have you been in the martial arts. I mean no disrespect, I'm just curious. I've heard (I've actually said many of the same things you're saying a while ago) the same thoughts from people, and from my experience (there are a few exceptions), they tend to be very inexperineced in general, or they have a lot of time spent in their style, and don't want to admit to the fact that just maybe something may be missing. I'm not trying to lump you in one of those categories, I'm just curious :)

Anyway, like Merryprankster mentioned, the key points for survival against a groundfighter are pretty straightforward. I agree with his assessment totally. But if you're relying on the techniques that you learned in your style (not you personally, I mean it to be more general) without actually testing it against a resisting partner/opponent, then how can it be a solid part of your arsenal? I've said this before, but I think one of the strengths of Kung Fu back in the day was that they did try to excell at one aspect, and prepare for the rest. The important elements in many kung fu styles were kicking, punching, locking, and wrestling/throwing (plus some styles had weapons, and healing), but you weren't expected to master every aspect. Just develop the skills enough to bring the fight to your best aspect.

No smart fighter would try to outgrapple a submission specialist if they did get taken to the ground, but how would no grappling experience (different from grappling skills/techniques) be helpful against that? If you don't know what they're doing, how do you know what you're going to do? Even grapplers fall into this mistake. Wrestlers thought they were the best hand to hand combatants bar none (Royce Algier's words, not mine :)), but when faced against submission experts, even they fell, because they had no experience against them. If you don't know what to expect, then you'll fall right into the trap by giving the ground fighter just what they want in your "instinctual" way of fighting your way out.

An example or two from the UFC (just bear with me here). Kevin Jackson vs Frank Shamrock: Jackson takes Shamrock down very cleanly, and very easily, but when Shamrock traps an arm and goes for the armbar, Jackson doesn't know what to do, so he pushes away, and basically does Shamrock's work for him by straightening his arm out for the lock. Next example, Enson Inoue vs Royce Algiers: Royce shoots in, again for a great clean takedown, but when Inoue takes the exposed arm and applys an armbar, Royce makes the biggest mistake that you can make, and attempts to lift Inoue, who then arches his back as soon as his shoulders clear the mat, and basically locks the armbar tighter. Royce falls on his face tapping all the way down.

What was all that for you ask? If you know what the grappler needs to execute an armbar, you won't be so eager to give it to them. If you don't know, you do stupid things like push off with one arm (hand on the neck, because you think it freaks them out more) while making room to punch. Next thing you know, a calf gets whipped right across your face, and you're falling back into an armbar. Another is when a striker on the ground (in the mount) panics, and spins around to try and cover his face, while attempting to crawl to safety. I'm no grappler, but I think that's exactly what they want. It's a very favorable position once you've got the back mount, and if they give it to you, it's like Christmas.

With all that said, let me answer your question. You don't need to learn BJJ and grappling to be prepared, but having knowledge of groundfighting is what's important. You won't get that only watching the UFC, or reading BJJ websites. You may get more knowledge on the subject, but nothing beats experience. There's nothing wrong with trying to use your style to defeat everyone elses style, but you can't do that, just fighting against your style, or only similar styles.

[qeySuS]

Well if noone ever takes you to the ground, noone knows grappling, doesnt that mean that the one guy who does know how to take people to the ground and is good at groundfighting has a huge advantage?

[Archangel]

I'm a little confused as why you chose Judo as the best choice for most. Judo has an almost non existing leg attack and defend arsenal. IMO Folkstyle wrestling would be a great choice since it contains all 3 of your criteria.

[Jaguar Wong]

Plus it's much easier to find wrestling (every high school has it) than it is to find Judo.

[les paul]

These are all great posts and I agree with the main focus points.

Personnally, I think taking what ever style you practice in and cross training it against other arts is the way to go.

I only have a few guy's I train/work out with and when we sparr we pull out everything i.e. stand up fighting and ground work.

It's focused under the umbrella of xingyiquan so it's mostly stand up, but takedowns and chin-na while on the ground happens more frequently than one would expect.

This type of training resembles more of an actual fight, rather than two guys sparring back and forth.


Spanky

[Merryprankster]

I chose Judo for a couple of reasons, although folkstyle is a fantastically close second.

Just so you know, I am NOT a Judoka. I'm an ex-wrestler and now a BJJ'er

1st: Judo teaches how to throw and grip-break with a clothed opponent. It is MUCH easier to go from defending while you wear a gi to defending without it than the other way round. Most people wear clothes in life. While it is possible to get in a fight at the beach, most places in the world at least wear a shirt and pants a good deal of time.

From a self defense perspective, I want you to learn grip breaks and I want you to learn how to use your opponents clothing as a weapon.

Some No-Gi grappling would be required to expose the judoka to life without a gi.

2nd: Judo has submissions. You don't know, in a fight, what the person is trained in. By studying an art that has submissions you learn to protect yourself from them. Even if you study a non-leg locking art like judo, you still recognize that this guy is "going for your leg." Wrestling does not have these submissions.

The three favorite techniques against wrestlers are triangle-choke, armbar and collar choke. Wrestlers are trained to drive into their opponent and keep their head up. Perfect set-ups for the above moves.

3rd: Judo groundwork is faster and more furious than folkstyle wrestling. There are 30 seconds only of groundwork in Judo. You have to move NOW or else you are stood back up. This is important in a streetfight, where I want to minimize my time on the ground. The only caveat to this is that "turtling" is a common Judo tactic, but if you train to be aggressive on the ground, that shouldn't be a problem.

4th: Wrestlers give their backs to escape, or stand up. Rotten idea in a streetfight.

5th: Wrestler's pin escapes are largely bridge-based. Couple this with a lack of submission experience, and the fact that they train to roll belly-down after the bridge, and this is potentially a mess.

6th: Throwing in wrestling is a slam (illegal) UNLESS you go to the mat with your opponent. Judoka train to throw and remain upright far more often. Handy.


Now, I'm not saying wrestling isn't a great art, but there are some very real modifications that need to be made to your style in a streetfight. The combination of wrestling skills when standing and BJJ skills on the ground is rather well suited to personal combat. IMO the adjustments you have to make as a Judoka are fewer than those of a wrestler... you get some pretty good takedown skills, and a touch of Newaza to keep you safer on the ground.

Wrestler-BJJers are equally as dangerous as Judoka-BJJers, but in an anything but strikes goes grappling match, I choose a straight Judoka over a straight wrestler, because of submissions and submission defense, and I think that Judoka have fewer "Bad Habits" to train away.

Personally, with the increase of Judoka studying BJJ, I think you are going to see less turtling and more attack. The refs'll call em back up though, but they will be TRAINING attack, and that's what is important from the self-defense aspect.

It is easier to find wrestling though

[DelicateSound]

I'm not a Judoka in style, but I study Judo. All the stuff about locks, grips and stuff I second. But don't forget that its competition based, which means you learn it in a safe environment, and soon learn that you've got to react quick. If not, you end up on the floor.

IMVHO all fighters should do some grappling, just to learn how to breakfall. If not, you're up sh!t creek.

[Shaolindynasty]

Hold on guys.....You missed my point. I don't have anything against "grappling"(I am mostly talking about submission) I have actually trained in some with my friend informally. I know a few submissions and stuff. I am not downing those who like to train in submission, I actually think it's a good art.

Jagur wong actually wrote my point better than I did.

"but I think one of the strengths of Kung Fu back in the day was that they did try to excell at one aspect, and prepare for the rest. The important elements in many kung fu styles were kicking, punching, locking, and wrestling/throwing (plus some styles had weapons, and healing), but you weren't expected to master every aspect. Just develop the skills enough to bring the fight to your best aspect"

What I mean is that alot of people ignore this type of thinking and try to match other people on their best game with their surface knowledge of things. I personally study all arts. Not physically but I research anything I can about other systems techniques etc. So I can learn their strengths and weaknesses and how to defeat them with my strengths. I personally do better this way than trying to out grapple a BJJ guy. For the record I am not some newbie kungfu geek, I take my training seriously and have sparred against many resisting opponents of other styles. This post was just an observation on the advertisements I see that say you need to learn submission to survive on the street, when you don't. I agree with Ryu when he said groundfighting includes more than submission....I guess I didn't make my point clear cause it was such a ramble. Excuse me if I am not clear I've been sick the last couple of days and my head is pounding. I am open to all styles not just my own.

[Jaguar Wong]

OK, so you're basically in the same boat as a few of us here (Archangel, Merryprankster, Ryu, LEGEND and some others of course). I know what you're saying, and I totally agree, but it just sounded like you mean learning submissions is totally useless, because you don't want to try and out submit a groundfighter. That's like the classics "don't box a boxer" arguement, which is the foundation of my fighting strategy.

So yes, I do agree with you there. It's just that when people say that learning groundfighting for street self defense is useless, I just think they're only talking about joint locks, and neglecting very important aspects of real groundfighting, like positioning, escapes, ground striking, takedowns, and takedown defenses. There are actually a few groundfighting techniques in Northern Shaolin, but they are not really Chin Na based, and again, they tend to work better against other standup fighters. That's why I figure that, like the masters of old, we're better off honing the different aspects with the masters of those aspects, rather than just in the safety of our own style. I don't mean go learn wrestling, I mean work with a wrestler to hone your style's techniques against his style. And also if you see something your body picks up naturally, add it to your personal arsenal, don't just diss it because it's not in your "complete system."

OK, enough from me, though...It's Christmas eve and all.

[Shaolindynasty]

"OK, so you're basically in the same boat as a few of us here (Archangel, Merryprankster, Ryu, LEGEND and some others of course)"

Yep you guys just don't know it cause your primary interest may be groundfighting and mine standing, but in the end our philosophies are the same.

"but it just sounded like you mean learning submissions is totally useless, because you don't want to try and out submit a groundfighter. "

Yeah I was a little unclear. I try to dabble in a little bit of everything so I can understand it better. Yet I primarly use my Kungfu skills (which includes hands, feet, joint locks and throws of all kinds) just like say Ryu may primarly use ground grappling skills. Even within my Kungfu system I speacialize in a few types of techniques, usually combinations of the above. The combinations in my Kungfu system a generally a little more free than you usually see. This allows me to sneek in other elements from different systems without slowing down the flow my system has already.


"I don't mean go learn wrestling, I mean work with a wrestler to hone your style's techniques against his style."

Exactly how I feel and do with all styles. Not only does it keep me sharp but it is alot of fun to get caught by somthing you don't expect, you learn alot that way.

[KenWingJitsu]

"The three favorite techniques against wrestlers are triangle-choke, armbar and collar choke."

Ahem...you forgot one...the easiest against an unsuspecting wrestler is always the guilletine choke. you have to know how to sprawl thoug, so you need to know some wrestling. But the guilletine for a guy diving at your legs....is always there.

I'm a little surprised but pleased to see a post like this on here. If you don't know grappling/groudfighting, GET SOME. You can't defend it if you don't know it.

[LEGEND]

I have to agree with KEN...the guilotine choke is probably the no. 1 tech that a BJJ guy will use on wrestlers...also I've seen bouncers use this!

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, because if you don't sprawl you get lifted 6 feet in the air and dropped on your head :)

[Archangel]

Very Interesting reply Prankster, you've brought up some really good points and I do agree with them, I do have one point to adress though.

"3rd: Judo groundwork is faster and more furious than folkstyle wrestling. There are 30 seconds only of groundwork in Judo. You have to move NOW or else you are stood back up. This is important in a streetfight, where I want to minimize my time on the ground. The only caveat to this is that "turtling" is a common Judo tactic, but if you train to be aggressive on the ground, that shouldn't be a problem. "

Since points for riding time are included in folkstyle, most of the wrestlers are trained to be very aggresive in trying to escape from the bottom. The point structure allows you a little leaway, which you wouldnt have in freestyle to go for the escapes. Now Judo on the other hand, with its 30 sec ground time you'd think everybody would be aggressive. In reality most Judokas stall and simply wait for the 30 seconds to expire. There are more victories for the superiority throw than submission in the tournies I have seen.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly, hence my comment on turtle-ing.

However, you are at least exposed to the idea that you can do more than turn your back to your opponent while trying to escape.

I believe that turtle-ing may still be a commonplace thing at tournaments, but that in training, many Judoka will "rediscover," ground work, what with BJJ's presence. Many Elite Judoka train BJJ now, and I imagine it will trickle down eventually. After all, many of these guys will teach in the future.