chi and forms

[SevenStar]

To your knowledge, where does the chi building come in? Is it in the breathing, or is it in the form itself? Some of you may know where I'm going with this.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think from intent. Where your mind goes your qi follows. Also from breathing properly and repitions of movement and proper mechanics(these can differ depending on style but all work, unlike what most of the "internal" guys say). I guess now that I think about it all the aspects are equally as important since one won't work by itself.

[SevenStar]

so the hard style forms will build it too, then...

It's not so much what you do as HOW you do it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"I think from intent"

you took my sifu's words right out of my mouth dude.

i am very new to internal work and am also a little drunk right now, so i apologise if i don't make any sense.

ultimately i think it's all about mastering your body, mind, and spirit. it comes in three phases like learning to crawl, walk, and run.

"breathing properly and repitions of movement and proper mechanics"

as a newb for me now i must simply keep my back naturally straight while remaining rooted and breathing into my daichen. i also do 4 breathing sets daily (well .. 5 times a week on avarage) i think that this is all physical, and along with working out and technique work, you are mastering the body.

for the mind you must have intent. i haven't fully grasped this yet, but every strike must be thrown completely though your opponents space (even if it's slow or without snap when sparring) ... and every movement has purpose. you guard your space like a tiger's kill and take what space your opponent thinks is his. you go in like a fat man at a buffett . .. you're there to consume. i think this is where you start listening for chi. when your ears are open and you are concentrating on what's going on.

after becoming proficient both of the above you can start feeling the streams of power coming up through the floor, through your center, and into your attack. i guess you are supposed to try and put that feeling into each attack, but i'm not real sure. when i asked my sifu about this he told me not to get ahead of myself. i think you have mastered body and mind when you always feel this and your movements are then dictated by the flow of energy instead of having to listen for it and act according to what you hear. i think this is when you start hearing your chi.

i have done very little meditation and training for the spiritual side, but i definatley see that there is something else guiding the body and mind. i think that when you finally release it, and let it take over, you are able to harness chi. you start the final phase of learning to speek chi.

[SevenStar]

good post

[Shaolindynasty]

Sevenstar- Yes I beleive hard styles build qi to, I also think most any type of athletic sport will to. When I took a Chinese medicine course I learned that along with intent the Qi will go anywhere the blood goes....to me that means weight training and calasthenics are also qigong. I think some harm has been done by certain internal style guys on here beleiveing they alone hold the key to developing Qi(don't get mad unless I am talking about you). Qi is actually quite easy to develop and understand if someone can teach it right. I'll say it again, most martial artists don't know much about Qi unless they have learned about it from a Chinese medicine practitioner. People try to get to mystical about it and make it sound hard to develop, like searching for the holy grail or somthing. Just about any "exercise" can develop Qi

[SevenStar]

Good post. Thanks!

My "hard Nei Jia" style (in the words of my sifu) features extensive breath control and body hardening drills within the set.

For a more famous example, just look at Hung Gar.

[dezhen2001]

Both hard qigong and soft qigong develop a healthy body, clear all the channels etc. but the aim is different. Hard Qigong is very definately for the martial arts. It makes you healthy, relaxed and strong by developing your bone, muscles and skin.
Soft Qigong on the other hand makes you strong, healthy, supple and relaxed. It is primarily for health, opening all the channels and eventually developing your potential.
Both are good for health.

Shaolindynasty - there are also many styles that do not use intent, instead the movements themselves 'lead' the qi, whether releasing negative energy or gathering fresh, healthy qi. Look at the likes of Dayan Qigong for example, a very famous method of Qigong. I don't think it uses visualisation at all (i'm just a beginner though so don't know).

I think the thing you have to remember is that EVERYTHING you do uses qi. Not just specific things like qigong, yoga etc...they more help you gather Postnatal qi to replenish and balance yourself :) Use Qi to gain more......

Some people tend to talk about Qi with all this Mysticism - trying to make it something really special. But in reality (i guess if you believe Eastern science instead of Western science that is!), Qi is in everything - it is everything - there is nothing 'special' or 'elite' about it. i hope you get what i am trying to say...

david

[Shaolindynasty]

dezhen2001- I agree with you completly, I've been saying that exact same thing for months on the boards!

[prana]

Qi is the bowl, and mind the cereal.

Stop sending the bowls outside :D Then you will have plenty of cereals.... hehehehe ;)

[Yung Apprentice]

That actually made sense!!!:D

[morbicid]

chi is a bunch of crap and u know it sevenstar!! i cant believe u would stoop so low as to post something like this. i'm definetly not inviting you to my next dinner party with macaroni salad and i want my pair of jeans back that you borrowed. next time u should think twice before running around in someone's jeans without asking permission

[Laughing Cow]

Naothing that can be added to what everybody said.

Morbicid as usual being the exception.

:D :D

[SevenStar]

it's not crap, you just aren't at that level yet. right now, you are still making macaroni salad. Eventually, you will have to move on to macaroni and chi.

[morbicid]

with enough meditation, and with some training from samuel L jackson, i will rise to a level that even surpasses macaroni with chi....

i will be at the level of ROYAL WIT CHI . !

and you will still be talking about forms and prancing around in a dress and crap like that. u 6 year old ballerina!

['MegaPoint]

Ignore the title. Bad joke.

There is nothing mystical about the term "chi". It is an esoteric Chinese word used to describe the amalgam of variables that come into play during physical/mental endeavors. I say mental because the body-mind is a harmonic and integrated unit.. Well, it's suppose to be.

If you are talking structural chi coupled with physical forces, then modern science agrees with you. If you are talking about the "intrinsic energy" that can be generated and projected to different parts of the body or outside of the body, then science doesn't really know. Well, let me correct that. Quantum mechanics and theoretical physics sees no reason to think that this type of chi can't or doesn't exist. In fact the "evidence" supports many of the contentions of TCM's concept(s) of Qi.

You can enhance the formerly definded chi, structural+physics, by training in "motion" and the strengthening of constitutional integrity. Proper balance, weight distribution, mechanics, efficiency as well as supplemental training (aerobic and anaerobic, "tendon training", stretching) all aid in this type of chi. Internally, if you're training is smart and noninjurious, the benefits will be increased health and stronger constitution. Less illnesses will occur. This a result not only of external souces but endogenous ones as well. Endorphins (endogenous morphines) and other beneficial chemicals are released into the blood stream. Feeling good leads to less stress, which leads to low cortisol levels in the blood, which=better health.

Most MAs are "external" and "internal". True, some lean one way or the other, but the truth is that duality exists in all thing. Good MAs training will build chi due to the fact that nature abhors novelty. Moderation prevails. The "mean" usually justifies the ends. Beyond the obvious benefits of "external" or "internal" qigong, the essence of the more abstract chi that many are talking about is left up to the individual to decide.

Remember that the mind is the controlling factor. The power of suggestion and influence is very strong. I have witnessed strength beyond muscular strength, and relaxed power that stung like a cattle prod. I have yet to see anyone project chi. Other than some Tibetan monk's having the ability to sleep in the freezing snow with nothing more than an orange "bedsheet" on, I have yet to be convinced that chi can be manifested in no touch knockouts or the like. The monk's abilities may not be mystical either, but fine-tuned body control that allows for mental regulation of the brain's temperature regulator, the hypothalamus.

Other martial artists have told me that I have strong chi, and that they could tell I was a martial artist. Maybe that's an example of projecting chi, hahaha! Or maybe they are fishing for a (return) compliment. You all, too, can have good chi. "For $19.99 you can learn the mysterious methods of Appalachian Nepalese Humboldt ChiBong! Learn the ancient secrets of Amazon Mandarin 2-Toed Sloth Chimichonga Chuan Fa!!! Become proficient at Hookah Ryu! Act now, while the lies last...."

Oh yeah, btw, breathing is a very important part of chi training, too. Crucial...

[ZIM]

Quantum mechanics and theoretical physics sees no reason to think that this type of chi can't or doesn't exist. In fact the "evidence" supports many of the contentions of TCM's concept(s) of Qi.
The 'problem' from a western POV is the method- a systematic error, actually...quantum/theoretical physics overcomes that, but its from going full circle...from an interview:

"WOLF: Yes, we're getting at the very nature of what consciousness is, really, in raising these humorous ways of looking at it. If we try to address it, I think, totally scientifically and totally objectively, I think we run into a real brick wall. Literally; it's that brick wall that's erected that keeps the person behind and you in front. In fact, if you start to address your own body as that kind of a thing, you say, "Ah, this is not a hand; this is a machine. Look, it does this, it does that."

MISHLOVE: A hundred and twenty-four joints.

WOLF: Exactly. We look at the articulation, we watch how the blood flows, we know the pressures in the heart, we know the atrium does this and that does this, and we know how -- mechanically, we can see it perfectly. But yet, something is missing in it all. Even if I try to make it as mechanically clear as possible, we know something's missing, and that thing that's missing is something we call consciousness.

MISHLOVE: Norman Cousins once talked about the body as being made of spiritual tissue. He was kind of getting at that angle.

WOLF: What I'm getting at, is that possibly we can't really address the question of what consciousness is, if we purely look at it in its objective, causal framework. "
link (http://www.intuition.org/txt/wolf.htm) :cool:

[ricksitterly]

exactly how old is this thread lol

[ZIM]

Right right...the link is quite old...! Jeez, you want me to find new stuff??! I got coffee to drink! :eek:

[fa_jing]

Go to a Shiatsu seminar. Perform the accupoint stimulation with your partner. You should feel some unusual sensations such as myofascial release ( akind of bubbling feeling) or electrical "pings". Not with every point but at some time during your work, you will feel these things. An example: My partner had pressed one end of a particular Chi channel (LI? don't remember) under my cheekbone, and I felt a ping like a little shock at the exact other end of that chi channel, which resides on the inside of the second toe between the first toe and the second toe. Those charts with the Accupuncture meridians are 100% real, although I am a bit sceptical of the exact properties that they associate with every single point. These points have also been tested using Western methods and show higher electrical conductivity than other surface points. Now, practice meditation. Probe the accupoints. Guess where you feel the "ping", from time to time? In the organ itself corresponding to the meridian in question!!! I have experienced this. That's how they found these points in the first place, by practicing deep meditation and feeling for which organs were stimulated by each of the accupoints.

Now, take a yoga class. Achieve deep relaxation and control over your abdominal muscles. Practice the various types of breathing. I've done this and been able to produce a wierd shaking that occured somewhere in the Dan Tien area. Not something that I've ever felt before. You probably can experience other strange sensations, too, depending on how you practice.

Now, chi blast your opponent's from behind a closed door! Practice distance dim mak and learn distance healing too to undo the trouble that you've caused! Assassinate Saddam from your living room while watching "Springer" It can be done!!!

[rolls]

.........

...........................
..................






............ !

[Xebsball]

morse code :confused:

[ZIM]

... --- -- . .--. . --- .--. .-.. . ... .- -.-- - .... .- - -- --- .-. ... . -.-. --- -.. . .. ... -.. . .- -.. ... - --- .--. .. -.. --- -. --- - .- --. .-. . . ... - --- .--. .-.-.- -- --- .-. ... . -.-. --- -.. . .. ... .- - - .-. .- -.-. - .. ...- . - --- .-.. --- --- -.- .- - .- -. -.. .- .-.. -- --- ... - .-. . ... . -- -... .-.. . ... .- ... -.-. .. .. .- .-. - ... - --- .--. .. .-- --- -. -.. . .-. .. ..-. -.-- --- ..- - --- --- -.- .- ... .... .- -.- . ... .--. . .- .-. . .--. .-.. .- -.-- .-.. .. -.- . .... .- -- .-.. . - .- -. -.. -.-. --- -. ...- . .-. - . -.. .. - - --- -- --- .-. ... . -.-. --- -.. . .-- .... . - .... . .-. .. - .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. .-.. --- --- -.- .-.. .. -.- . .- -. .- ... -.-. .. .. .- .-. - .-. . -. -.. . .-. .. -. --. --- ..-. .- --.- ..- .. .-.. .-.. --- .-. --- ..-. ... .... .- -.- . ... .--. . .- .-. . .... .. -- ... . .-.. ..-. --- .-. .... .- -- .-.. . - ... -.-. .- ... - .-.. . ... - --- .--. .. .-- --- -. -.. . .-. .. ..-. -- .. ... - . .-. -- --- .-. ... . .. -. ...- . -. - . -.. .- ... -.-. .. .. .- .-. - . -. -..


Anyhow...thats what Mullah Dubya says... (http://www.angelfire.com/de/leighton/textcw.html)

Anyone wanna get a thread going in morse? :eek: :D No one would hijack that! [maybe]

Actually, fa_jing had some good observations, IMO

[Former castleva]

Concept of chi-internal energy can be found from natural religion of aninism as an example.Also during the primitive times of arguing about human "soul",source of thought etc. there were certain chi links in Greek thought (later during the old times,they became out-dated)
If one has attributes for science,he might not want to bother his head with this to a great degree.
Simple explanations for complex things.The best that could have been done,physics and all being mentioned it is reasonable that it all was "covered" with a solution like that of chi.
Now there are certain more advanced explanations for these mechanisms,as fa-jing mentioned.
It bugs a bit though that some studies indicated that as long as the certain therapy is used,then yes there can be additional effect...however,what takes some kick out is that it may not matter if the correct point is used or not (not to say it would always be that way)
This,according to those studies.

[joedoe]

I can't believe morbicid dug up this thread! Obviously has nothing better to do. Get a life :D

[morbicid]

i do so have better things to do!!!! like.... um......
screw you guys!

::goes back to working on kickball conspiracy thread::

[joedoe]

LOL :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
Ignore the title. Bad joke.

There is nothing mystical about the term "chi". It is an esoteric Chinese word used to describe the amalgam of variables that come into play during physical/mental endeavors. I say mental because the body-mind is a harmonic and integrated unit.. Well, it's suppose to be.

If you are talking structural chi coupled with physical forces, then modern science agrees with you. If you are talking about the "intrinsic energy" that can be generated and projected to different parts of the body or outside of the body, then science doesn't really know. Well, let me correct that. Quantum mechanics and theoretical physics sees no reason to think that this type of chi can't or doesn't exist. In fact the "evidence" supports many of the contentions of TCM's concept(s) of Qi.

You can enhance the formerly definded chi, structural+physics, by training in "motion" and the strengthening of constitutional integrity. Proper balance, weight distribution, mechanics, efficiency as well as supplemental training (aerobic and anaerobic, "tendon training", stretching) all aid in this type of chi. Internally, if you're training is smart and noninjurious, the benefits will be increased health and stronger constitution. Less illnesses will occur. This a result not only of external souces but endogenous ones as well. Endorphins (endogenous morphines) and other beneficial chemicals are released into the blood stream. Feeling good leads to less stress, which leads to low cortisol levels in the blood, which=better health.

Most MAs are "external" and "internal". True, some lean one way or the other, but the truth is that duality exists in all thing. Good MAs training will build chi due to the fact that nature abhors novelty. Moderation prevails. The "mean" usually justifies the ends. Beyond the obvious benefits of "external" or "internal" qigong, the essence of the more abstract chi that many are talking about is left up to the individual to decide.

Remember that the mind is the controlling factor. The power of suggestion and influence is very strong. I have witnessed strength beyond muscular strength, and relaxed power that stung like a cattle prod. I have yet to see anyone project chi. Other than some Tibetan monk's having the ability to sleep in the freezing snow with nothing more than an orange "bedsheet" on, I have yet to be convinced that chi can be manifested in no touch knockouts or the like. The monk's abilities may not be mystical either, but fine-tuned body control that allows for mental regulation of the brain's temperature regulator, the hypothalamus.

Other martial artists have told me that I have strong chi, and that they could tell I was a martial artist. Maybe that's an example of projecting chi, hahaha! Or maybe they are fishing for a (return) compliment. You all, too, can have good chi. "For $19.99 you can learn the mysterious methods of Appalachian Nepalese Humboldt ChiBong! Learn the ancient secrets of Amazon Mandarin 2-Toed Sloth Chimichonga Chuan Fa!!! Become proficient at Hookah Ryu! Act now, while the lies last...."

Oh yeah, btw, breathing is a very important part of chi training, too. Crucial...

Yeah, that's the direction I was thinking in when I started this thread.

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

In TJQ we say the mind should be on the spirit not the QI; otherwise the Qi will become stagnant.

By relaxing the entire external Body we allow Qi & Blood to flow smoothly and naturallly to the entire Body and thus open all the channels.

Lifting the internal spirit can activate the essential substances such as blood & Qi.

Internal Spirit, essential substances & Qi can be melted into the internal energy of TJQ.

Hope this helps anybody.