Sidestepping a TAKEDOWN???

[LEGEND]

I keep hearing this...and I have never ever seen this!!! What is this...when people say sidesteping kicks etc...I understand how that works from kickboxing/tkd...but how do u sidestep a takedown when a GRAPPLER is less than a foot away from you??? If this was sooooo easy...then I would be the next BARRY SANDERs.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hmm, you can run into the take down, you can sprawl and you can do a head driver.

I'd love to see a side step move as the most common tack downs work against leg adduction which is a significant anatomical weakness - hm. I'd love to hear it to. Methinks a different range might be in peoples heads?

[Merryprankster]

Lateral movement is not sufficient.

That about sums it up.

[SevenStar]

my thinking is that they are assuming a distance greater than a few inches. Most of the demos I've seen, and techs people have showed me that involves sidestepping requires me to do a take down from a foot away or more. With that type of distance sidestepping is fairly easy. REALISTICALLY though, I don't see a way of sidestepping a takedown.

[taijiquan_student]

I find if they are closer than a foot this doesn't work very well. But if they are closing the distance, I think it's probably fine. I was sparring a more grappling-oriented friend the other day, and one thing I have noticed that works is when he shoots in for a double leg or something like that, to side-step and do a strike(s) to the head. The important thing to remember when side-stepping any sort of shoot or takedown, is that it won't work half as well if you just step to the side--you need to step forward to the diagonal.
The problem with side-stepping a takedown is, like SevenStar said, is that no one will usually rush in from more than about a foot away. If they are really close, which they almost always are, side-stepping won't work. Now, if they shoot in from more thabout a foot away, I find side-stepping and striking works fine. If you're feeling comfortable maybe instead of striking the head after side-stepping, you could do a stomping heel kick to the head.

[rogue]

I think people are referring to the "football tackle" takedown and not a true grappling takedown. Many schools have yet to notice the difference in the two.

[KenWingJitsu]

It can be done, and HAS been done. Two examples.

Pedro Rizzo vs Dan Severn in the UFC.
Milo Crocop vs. Fujita in Pride vs. K-1.

If you've seen those fights, you know.

[Merryprankster]

Exceptions that prove the rule KenWing.

Gilbert Yvel knocked out Gary Goodridge with one kick. Care to stake the fight on the high roundkick?

[Braden]

I don't think anyone seriously means they can simply step away from a takedown, so much as they mean 'step out of the vector of the force' while applying countergrappling.

[straight blast]

Do you mean Mirko "CroCop" filpovich (or however it's spelt)? The croation policeman fought in a pride vs K1 match? That would have been sweet!:D :D :D

[KenWingJitsu]

Merryprankster, I didn't say anything about which is the rule. I merely stated it CAN be done (which is true - I've done it myself) and it has been done. I gave examples. i didn't go into how much probability or percentages.

Straight blast, yes. THAT Cro Cop. Fujita attempted about 4 takedowns that he avoided by sidestepping pushing Fujita away. On the fifth one, He knee'd Fujita in the noggin, opening up the nastiest cut I've ever seen. End of fight. K-1 & Pride are doing more & more of these K-1 vs. Pride matches. Some of the K-1 fighters even spent a few weeks training with Royce Gracie on some ground techniques. If these k-1 fighters keep up their ground training for a year or so, they will be unstoppable in MMA.

[Archangel]

Anything CAN be done, I can sidekick an opponent when he's trying for a double and knock him out. Does that mean I'm going to try for it? A good fighter will go for the techniques that will work most of the time, the high percentage techniques are the ones which will win fights for you.

Oh Ya, I saw that Fujitsa fight. Most of those takedowns were taken from at least 5 feet away with absolutely no setup; thats not what you train for. You train to defend as if the attacks were coming at you with alot of technique. Then you are preparred for both the well trained tech. and the sloppy one.

[Merryprankster]

Yup. I've seen fujita fight. He shoots from forever away with his head down.

If my mug were that big I'd shoot from that far away too :) No need to protect your face with a bone structure like that :D

[Ford Prefect]

Wouldn't a wizzer (ward off for you taiji people) be kind of considered a side-step? I've seen wing chun people stop a double leg by controlling centerline and stuffing the shooter's shoulders. (kind of live a stiff arm with a pivot)

[Merryprankster]

Ford, could you describe what you are talking about in greater depth? Did the stance remain static or did they "move" with the follow through.

A wizzer isn't really a side-step. A wizzer is typically applied either from an overhook and you pivot out or the opponent is already in and you are attempting to pry a bit. At these points you aren't really "side stepping," any more, but turning on an axis, rather than moving laterally.

[Water Dragon]

I've done it :D Of course, I did a buck-back first (Thank you very much for the term MP) and the guy just kinda made it natural. Don't plan on using it as a primary defense though. I still like horse stance (changing levels with the guy) and forward stance (thank you for the term again MP)

[SanHeChuan]

I don’t really like a straight side step as generally you have to move both feet and that makes you too slow for the situation.

If I were to "side step" I would do so at an angle, which angle would depend on my stance. And weather I would be going forward or backward would depend on what I wanted to do.

If I were in a typical right foot forward fighting stance, I would push off with my front foot propelling me backward at a 45-degree angle to my left. But I would have to act fast with a counter strike before he changed tactics or just changed the direction of his shoot.

Or I would push off with my back leg propelling forward and to the right at 45-degree angle and into my opponent. Going at a 45 as well as coming into my opponent should take enough away from his attack to make it fail, by moving off the direct line of attack and intercepting him before he could generate enough force. I would do this if I intend to grapple with him in some way, and would probably go for a sweep style take down.

MP I have no idea what a weezer :p is but my third choice would be to turn on axis.

I would step around with my front foot pivoting on my back foot, while hooking my back arm under his armpit as I turn to guide him pass. Its an Aikido technique, and it helps if they have allot of momentum.

What to you guys think do these sound tactically sound.

[Merryprankster]

SanHeChuan,

The last move is a wizzer. Wrestlers are a bit more aggressive with it. MUCH pressure on the shoulder, trying to force the upper body down hard while we counter.

I should note that I am not trying to redirect the energy in quite the same way. It's not a particularly gentle move, and I'm not trying to get him to go by me.

Typically, wrestlers use it once the shot has already penetrated. We don't try to hook the wizzer as we pivot out of the way.

As far as taking the angle and countering with your own shot, that is a phenomenally difficult thing to do (ie, I've never seen it done and I've never done it) without defending first, I think.

[SanHeChuan]

Well truth be told I’ve never done it, I’ve never even had a serious grappler type try the technique on me, but it seems like it would work to me.

I do a variation in sparring all the time (against strikes and stuff), a quick and small retreat to get me out of harms way, and then side kick them in the ribs type area. But it’s not quite the same so...

I think the second option would be the best, if you a good grappler, but I wouldn't want to try to out grapple a grappler my self.

[KenWingJitsu]

Merry, on that last tehnique, San He isn't describing a ****zer. A ****zer as you correctly said, is an overhook. He's describing and underhook of that armpit & pivoting out, pushing the head down with the other. That's actually one of the things Pedro Rizzo did to Dan Severn. i though some Aikido guys would be happy to see that one.:D

It also works well to drive his head into your knee...one of the grips you can find in Graeco wrestling.

[Merryprankster]

Oops. I misread it.

Thanks KenWing.

[Ford Prefect]

Merry,

I always considered an off-axis pivot a form of side stepping. The wing chun guy pivotted slightly while stiff arming the grappler and the blasted him in the face. That was the only time I saw either the wing chun guy or the grappler (it was in my health club), so I'm not sure how proficient either was. From my experience in BJJ and Folkstyle wrestling, it was a decent shoot though.

[JWTAYLOR]

Man I was going to jump right in on why sidestepping works until someone said that sidestepping was different than the ****zer.

So now I'm a bit confused. Let's say someone is within grabbing distance, less than an arms length away, how would you sidestep to get away from a takedown? I'm really asking here, no troll.

JWT

[Tigerstyle]

"As far as taking the angle and countering with your own shot, that is a phenomenally difficult thing to do."

Difficult maybe, but not impossible. Want proof? Ask Ralek. He'll tell you that King can do it on Tekken 3 ;) .

[Merryprankster]

JWT,

I wouldn't really call a wizzer a sidestep because the movement isn't truly lateral... the principles of the sprawl are actually still in place. Weight drops, hip back, shoulder with the overhook is DRIVING into your opponent while the other arm cross-faces or controls the hands trying to break the grip or to go for a wizzer grip uchi. You might open your hips to increase leverage but the idea of just "side-stepping," isn't really apparent to me.

But if you think of it as a side step, who am I to argue, yah?

Now, slip, move laterally to take the angle and counter, like in boxing, THAT's a side step to me. :)

[SanHeChuan]

you kick him in the nuts before he says "would you please like to fight sir?". :p

[JWTAYLOR]

MP, cool. The way I was shown the **** was to take lead foot and move it back and to the side (let's say it's right foot right side) and then to move my back/left foot much ****her back and way to the right turning my hips and shoulders to the left. I try to put my weight on their back.

I used to go for the Guillotine, but now I like to just put one hand over their back, with my forearm and elbow pushing down on their back and neck and the other hand grabbing the shoulder/bicep and pulling back and down.

I usually go down with them, but I'm on top in a north/south and it's an easy knee to the head with either leg from there. Somtimes I'm on their back, sometimes not. To be honest, I can't really controll which yet.

Of course, since I no longer recieve any formal instruction, I could be doing this all wrong. But it seems to work for me. They used to either lay me out and I struggled to pull an open guard or they would just fly by me when I pulled the ****zer. Now, they go down allot more, but so do I.

(It eddited the word f@rther.) As well as wh!izzer.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

JWT,

Have you considered the quarter nelson?


Do everything you are talking about, except when you snake your wizzer arm underneath their pit, make a "C" (or backwards C) with your free hand. Place the free hand on the back of their neck, with the thumb on one side and your fingers on the other. With with your wizzer hand, grab your wrist. Apply your bodyweight to their head and watch them stuff into the mat. Adjust your hand angle as neccessary to create the space you need to break their grip on your leg.

You can push them away at this point, throw them by and take their back, free your legs and knee them in the head, etc.

[JWTAYLOR]

Muchos Gracias. I don't have anyone to roll with until Friday, but I'll work it then.

JWT