Hey KC Elbows

[Royal Dragon]

So bud, are you in Chicago yet? Are we still meeting at High View?

Call me and let me know what's up.

(630) 400 1200


Royal Dragon

[KC Elbows]

Sorry, had to postpone the trip. Transmission problems on my wife's car are costing us a mint(its a saab, and there's only 2 decent saab mechanics nearby, and they both charge a mint). I'm hoping to make the trip before too long, I'll let you know.

[KC Elbows]

TTT

[Royal Dragon]

That sucks. Is it one of the old 900 modles?

Hey, what do you think of this link?

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/cgi-bin/displayb.pl?martialarts.html/Martial_Arts/1/martialarts.pl


It looks like Kimmie's leaders are defecting!!!

Another good CMQ site is at

http://www.martial-arts-network.com/forum/forum_pg.htm


I spent way to much time arguing over there!!!

Anyway, Smell ya later!!!

:D

RD

[KC Elbows]

Wow. Just finished reading the chung moo stuff. I'm glad to hear Tom McGee is having a different view of things. He actually came as close as I think he could back then to opening up to me when I wasn't sure whether I should do college or concentrate on chung moo. He told me to concentrate on college, it was an important social experience(not his words), and then got really weird, like in a mood, and didn't talk anymore, just sort of closed the conversation. That was during the Zeckman thing. Weird.

Too bad I didn't take his advice, but ce la vie.

BTW, it's a 95 convertible, If I recall right its a 900.

[Kim]

Don't mean to jump in on your thread, but hey, I've got both of your attentions.

Just want to say thanks, RD, if you weren't always arguing on the other site, I might still be in the dark. I've made the first move towards leaving CMQ. Now I am just waiting for the return call, not that it will make any difference in my decision.

KC, remember me? I was looking for information on St. Paul area schools and style recommendations. Anyway, I still haven't visited any schools in the area, holidays have kept me busy, but I have some goods leads. I'll keep you informed.

Thanks again, guys, one soul saved.

Peace, Kim

[KC Elbows]

Yes, I notice you've been quite the busy poster on that forum. Impressive, RD. You're the anti-fanatacism fanatic, dismembering disinformation with a religious frenzy. Good work.

I am sooo tempted to see if Thom McGee is living in your area and giving him a call. This Chung Moo stuff always gets me really reflective, and just when I forget about it, something reminds me, and I have to do a quick reality check.

BTW, I tried to post on that forum on a thread where you were discussing Tom Dommke, but I failed. I've always felt he came into position because he had more business sense than warrior spirit(unlike McGee), but apparently you had a different experience of him than I. When I got my first degree black belt, and was thinking about quiting, I never bothered to pick up the belt. Dommke complained to some friends of mine about this, but McGee would definitely have found me and chunged me repeatedly. It could be that Dommke was just more civilized, I just always noticed that as soon as he was running the school, there were less demos, less new material, and less material with actual applications(I did two years of pargae in that time.)

Of course, I'm a lucky one. The only injury I came out of chung moo with is one I went in with. There was an older lady who attended Villa Park school, some time before the bad press, who had to quit because the form was doing something bad to her pelvic bone. The instructors were wise enough not to refer to the former student/sweet old lady as "no-mind", which would have been about as good for PR as kicking puppies or running over kids with rickets.

[KC Elbows]

Oh, and hey, Kim, good seeing you. Good luck on your search.

[Royal Dragon]

"Yes, I notice you've been quite the busy poster on that forum. Impressive, RD. You're the anti-fanatacism fanatic, dismembering disinformation with a religious frenzy. Good work. "



Reply]

Yeah, I have a somewhat obsessive personality don't I?

I think it's funny, on the Martial arts Table Talk thread, if you read it, the author sites some of "MY" research!!!!

I never knew I had any substanstial impact, I was just debating stuff 'cause its fun.

I'm starting to back away from all that now though, because I'm getting board with it. I mean How many times can I say and prove the same stuff?

He, He You cold say i'm looking for a sucsessor are you up too it? :D

Post as Royal Dragon II

Oh, by the way the problem posting over there is in HTML code for the "Post button". Someone showed us how to fix it, and I followed his direction and created a web page that forms new posts for that site. its at

http://www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/TMANPost.html

Kind of a secret page to my site. ;)

Hey Kim, good to see your getting away from those guys. The're a pain i the asss alright. Keep looking, a good school will eventually present itself.

Happy Holidays

RD

[KC Elbows]

I could be "I Hate Iron Kim"!! I'm always tempted to get in on that stuff, and sometimes feel like its my responsibility, seeing as how I allowed a good chunk of money to maintain the organization and completely ignored all the warning signs.

I could only do it part time, though. The stuff just gets me soo agravated, and its not at all the obvious CMQ instructors posting inane crap, its when the students come on and say, "I've been practicing for six months, and I feel such a burst of energy from my practice". I really feel for those people. The instructors, I can deal with just fine.

BTW, did you ever see a post from one CMQ guy, I'm pretty sure it was someone who was heavily indoctrinated and held serious rank. Anyway, he posted entirely in capitols, and began his post "FOOL!!" and then went on to give the party line, but not like a student, who just repeats the little bits of party line they know, but like McGee, who didn't sound so much like he was doing a party line, since he'd heard so much of it he could make it up on his own. Vague description, I know, but I've always wondered if that was McGee before the falling out.

Anyway, crazy stuff. Is the Nick on that forum the same Nick you know, who comes on here occassionaly?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Boy is that good stuff. RD - we'll have to meet when I am out in Chicago again.

I LOVED this post:

ANY OF YOU WUSSY INTERNET WARRIORS THAT THINK YOU CAN EASILY TAKE AN OOM YUNG DOE STYLIST ARE WELCOME TO VISIT MY SCHOOL. I AM NOT EXPECTING ANY OF YOU TO SHOW UP AS YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF ***GOTY LITTLE SISSY BOYS AND CAN BITE MY ASS. IT'S A SHAME THOUGH. THE CLASS COULD USE A FEW NEW PRACTICE DUMMYS.

YOU WOULD NOT DARE SAY ANY OF THE THINGS YOU POST ON THIS FORUM IN PERSON TO THE FACE OF AN OYD STUDENT OR AN INSTRUCTOR. IF YOU DARED TO SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO ASSISTANT NATIONAL INSTRUCTOR FRANK, HE WOULD FLATTEN YOU BEFORE YOU EVEN HAD THE TIME TO DRAW A BREATH.

HERE'S THE ADDRESS - IF ANY OF YOU HAVE THE ROCKS

141 California Street
Newton, MA

COME ON OVER ANY TIME. YOULL FIND A VERY WARM RECEPTION.


Why do I think someone is setting these idiots up? I've knocked around some pretty senior CMDers with little or no effort in the past. Which is no compliment to me as until you have met them, it is hard to fathom just how bad they really are. Yeesh. I feel for you guys who were on the 'inside'. I'm glad your both off to some cool training.

Now we've only got to get Willow Sword to see SD for what it is...

[Royal Dragon]

, "I've been practicing for six months, and I feel such a burst of energy from my practice". I really feel for those people. The instructors, I can deal with just fine"

reply]

Yeah, these guys **** me off the most. They don't relise ALL martial arts give you that burst of energy, heck Yoga, areobics and SWIMING!!! does the same thing!!!
You can't tell them that though, because they have never done anything physical before, and by six months they are already on the road to full brainwashing.

Ah Nick, Yes he's the same guy. He left the moo because I kicked his ass in the park one day. He then did some Shaolin for a spell, but I don't think he takes any of this stuff seriously, too busy making himself rich I think. The guy is like a Biker gone Yuppie type. Last time i saw him he pulls up to my house (living at my moms during Divorce actually) in a brand new 7 series BMW, gets out of the car in an expensive buisness suite, but wearing shades that a Harley guy would wear wile out on the road. It was the funniest dam thing i ever saw. He actually wanted to train dressed like that. I did'nt happen, we just played a bit, but he's cool. I haven't seen him for a few years, but he E-Mails me from time to time.

RD

[KC Elbows]

Monkeyslap,

I love when they do the all caps thing. I think they believe it adds an air of credibility to their statements, and it just cracks me up.

The thing that really gets me is that, when the instructors start posting, it has this feel of the sheep being herded, you know, like "Don't let these thoughts trouble you, little ones, oom yung do works because I say so".

To show you what a geek I am, I have been working on a posting style, an affected thing like No Know, but not for the same intent. What I'm working on is something that would specifically lend itself to chung moo stock answers, i.e. "No Mind" "not chung moo" "chung moo" "pa doe" "walking dead", etc. The goal is to be able to determine quickly who I am speaking with that is heavily indoctrinated, and who is just at the front or back end of the chung moo cycle. Boring stuff, really, but I tend to work at similar things, looking at them like puzzles. Once, a friend gave me a one page paper that she had written, and said that she reads it and there seems to be an unintentional hidden meaning, but she couldn't figure out what it was. When I gave her the paper back, I had it notated and explained to her that it was a code, and when the code was broken, it yeilded the message "Milk is bad". The code worked and everything. Did I mention I didn't have a job at the time? Amazing what boredom does.

Of course, I have a job now. Roaming internet forums, slamming Canadians. Pay sucks, but oh the job satisfaction!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey KC,
Bummer about the job - but hey MORE TRAINING TIME!!! (Did I sound important?)

I am loving that T-Man board. I haven't had a dose of chung moo in a long time. I miss having them around. They are the only group that I find so dispicable that I feel compelled (The power of JCKim compells you!!) to mess with them. I know, bad behavior for someone who teaches, but dude, they ruin peoples lives. Either it's what it is or it isn't. I'm not good with ignoring the bad.

I'll want your notes on cracking the CMD code when your done. I'm a geek, what can I say...

[KC Elbows]

Don't feel to bad for me, I actually do have a decent paying job, I was just joking. And of course you sounded important, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT ALL CAPS IS THE ONLY WAY A TRUE PRACTITIONER OF MOO DOE WAYS COMMUNICATES, BUT IT WAS RIGHT TO ASK.

I like that: The power of JC Kim Compels you!

They should have known better than to mess with geeks. We are the only real power in the world.

Here's a description of the chung moo "boggwa walk" for those who want a good idea of what one learns of the "true" martial arts at the school. The hands are held out in roughly the same position(relative to the body) as most pa kua styles, but the hands are held in what looks like an upside down tiger. The feet are roughly paralel, double weighted, and, if memory serves me, you inhale when the left foot steps, exhale when the right foot steps. The steps are from double weighted to double weighted without any real transition, so the steps are pretty clunky.

One thing that annoyed me about the disclosures on that sight is that they make mention of a letter from an instructors wife, and comment that it is later in the document, but the chapter titled "letters" is missing. Anyone know where I can see that

RD, I'd love to see some of your research material and sources. I haven't met anyone who's done quite the research you have on it, and its much easier to deconstruct the chung moo myth when you've got the reality handy.

Some questions/topics for you:

-Have you ever seen the really old brochures, when the school was not chung moo quan/do or oom yung do, but was called kong su? It didn't make the same claims, the later myth was that JCK was only teaching that stuff until he had a group trained to be his elite instructors. I can't remember who, but one of the instructors, possibly McGee, had an old copy of it, and showed it to us. It was not blue, if I recall right it was white or yellow, and I think it might contain a couple clues as to the early history of the school.

-McGee claimed Kim saved him from a bad life, I can't recall if it was drugs, but I think it was. Know anything about the early relationship of McGee to the school? I'm sure this has a lot to do with McGee's fanatacism to the school, but I think that sort of fanatacism tends to turn into fanatacism against(judging from myself, really).

-I'm curious about how/why you feel Kim studied hwarang do. I've seen some solid comments regarding links to tang soo do that feel right to me, but nothing I remember seeing there reminded me of hwarang do. However, I could very easily be wrong, just wondering what led you to that hypothesis.

-Do we both agree that judo was incorporated because Kim, at school in Korea, would have learned judo? The other hypothesis I can see is that McGee had a heavy judo background, if memory serves me correctly, and I know that, under him, we did a lot more judo than at any other chung moo school I attended. I remember him having a class of fifty do rolls all about the room for a solid hour without stopping, not a set regimen, but where, if you were gonna run into another student, you rolled away or dive rolled over or turned and continued rolling.

-The pa kua connection. You feel he may have learned it from a student in Korea. Any ideas of which student? Also, I've heard mention that the broadsword form is a rip off of Park Bok Nam's, but I don't know if this happened before JCK came to the US or after, if at all.

-The pa kua connection seems definite to me, even if they messed up the mechanics of it. The first step of par gae, with that turned front foot, seems very pa kua influenced to me, but I don't think they understand its use. I once asked domke what it was used for, and he just kind of snickered, wouldn't answer. I think they saw the position somewhere, but didn't understand the mechanics, and so the form starts out with a step that actually should come after a more rear weighted stance, IMHO.

-Have you ever seen a list of the first generation of instructors? Also, do you remember a somewhat young instructor, italien, short and stocky, named Joe? He was demoted at one point, and I'm working on finding out some specifics. Also, when I started, I was under an Assistant Regional Instructor named Larry at the Bensenville. I never saw or heard of him in the organization after that. You know his last name? Particulars re:the closing of the Bensenville school?

[KC Elbows]

Oh, two more:

-What did JCK do for a living in Korea that enabled him to come the US?

-Has anyone ever done a comparison of the specific shady stuff CMQ allegedly does(the envelope crap, handing money face up, the specific gift schedule, etc.) and rituals of the Korean underground/triads? Probably a dead end, but a possibility nonetheless. I don't think Kim had the intelligence to invent all the ways to cheat with money that are attributed to him, but I could be wrong.

-Will JCK make all the National Instructors wear nike sneakers at the next comet passing? Just Do It!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah - now I know people are trying to pin his training on Lui Shi Tien - but other than stealing cross choreography (and as I recall the whole 'bagwa' story happened AFTER the Pam Zekman reports. I think he just followed a video tape. How he moves and how a Ba Gua practitioner move are VERY VERY different.

Just appalling...

[KC Elbows]

No, the boggwa thing predated Zekman, though the blue literature describing the boggwa legend could have been after Zekman.

I started chung moo long before the Zekman thing, and they were already talking about boggwa walk. The guys who had been in a long time(Tom McGee, etc.) learned a different version of it that I never saw, they all referred to it as "old style" boggwa walk. Probably just another case of senseless "corrections" that led nowhere.

[Kim]

KC

I see they added the missing chapter 12 on the TMAN forum. The whole document is there, or at least it says it is, and I did scroll down and there are some letters there. Don't know if it is the one you are looking for but just thought I'd let you know.

Peace, Kim

[KC Elbows]

Thank you, Kim. Are you practicing in a school presently? Still chung moo, or another?

[Kim]

I have not been back to the chung moo school now for a couple months. Coincidently the last class I had there was one of those special NLT ones on Bagwa Walk, too bad I didn't know all this stuff before I paid out the bucks. Anyway, due to holidays and such I haven't started anywhere yet. I will be checking out a school called American Kung Fu next week and am waiting for a response from a friend of a friend who just became a sifu in the area to find out where she attends. I plan on checking out Gin Foon Mark's SPM school also.

Peace, Kim

[KC Elbows]

Good!

At the bottom level of chung moo, most of the stuff is just annoying, but if you want to know what your money is going towards, read those letters. They're heinous. One guy I talk about, Tom McGee, was one of my main instructors in chung moo. He was a *******, but a warrior *******, which is more than I give most of 'em. From what I heard, they hung him out to dry, using his loyalty to JCK as a tool to get him to go with their stupidity.

[Royal Dragon]

Hey KC,
Too many questions to answer, I'd have to write a book.

I was talking with an oldtimer (late 70's) that claimed Kim was associated with the Lee brothers of Hwarangdo, and had some sort of buisnes relation to them. He reported seeing them come into Kim's school often, but never taking lessons.

After hearing this, I contacted them and got this respons

"We NO LONGER discuss THAT individual!!!!!!"

That was it, nothing more, and when I pressed it, they hung up on me. So SOMETHING went on between them for sure.

Also, remember the Chuck Norris story? we contacted him too, and he denied EVER even knowing Kim, in Korea or otherwise. In fact he claimed our inqurery was the first time he'd EVER heard of Kim. So I guess Kim did'nt train him either.


As far as the Bok Nam Park thing "I" came up with that one based on the time line and the fact that his master introduced Pakua to Korea. Basically, my theory is that if Kim learned Pakua form this Wang Po dude, then he MUST have been connected to Bok's master because he was the only one doing Paku in Korea at the time. Somehow, as time went on my theory just became accepted as common fact. Someone did some deeper looksee's into that, and discovered the similarity in Broad sword form. I haven't doen that comparisen myself, but if it's true it would help cement my theory.

If you want some more on what I've got you have to call me, I'm not going to type it all out again it's too hard, and I've lost intrest in the subject.

RD

[KC Elbows]

And I thought you were glutton for punishment!

Sorry, I remember you stating some of that before, though the details of the Lee brothers thing is new to me, but I remember the "We don't discuss THAT individual" bit.

I'll have to delve a little bit, as I've seen some stuff that led me down different avenues as to the source of some of his martial training. It is possible that the Lee brothers were not there as teachers or students, but for some other reason, be it monetary/organizational, etc. Interesting stuff, I'll give you a call one of these days.

Thanks for retyping what you did though.

[Royal Dragon]

I have a file on My Harddrive full of Chung moo stufff, anything from rummur to theory to facts and copys of court dockets. I wonder If it could be E-Mailed as an attachment? Or do I have to send each file one by one? I could try copying it to a floppy and mailing it to you I supose.

What we should do, is go down to the Dirksen building next summer and view the 4 boxes of files on them. I hear it entertaining reading. Rummur has it they found a box of porno's mixed in with Kim's personal records (oops:0). Photo's are suposed to be in the file. I have the case number, so t would just be a matrter of going down town to the dirksen building, walking up to the desk and asking to see files for case # Blah, Blah Blah Blah.............................................. ........