Simple question

[PHILBERT]

Ok, I use to know this, and had it written down, but I can't remember it anymore and want a quick refresher.

If someone wants to gain physical mass, what do they have to do at the gym?

If someone wants to get stronger, what do they have to do at the gym?

If someone wants to get bigger (look bigger), what do they have to do at the gym?

So simply, do you do heavy weights and low reps to get stronger, low weights and lots of reps to get bigger, etc? Thanks.

[Silumkid]

Hey Philbert,

These are some VERY general guidelines.

Stronger: heavy weights, low reps (4-6)

Bigger: medium weights, medium reps (8-10 or 12)

Endurance: lighter weights, more reps (15 and up)

The weights are often calculated using your 1RM measurement and adjusting percentages from there, but if you are an instinctual trainer, you have a good feel for what you can handle. Rep speeds and the like can change certain aspects as well.

Hope that helps.

[nospam]

Physical mass comes with muscle maturity.

Get bigger? Lift heavy with a spotter. Concentrate on the large muscle group exercises.

Stronger- will occur no matter the technique. But I would agree with heavy (max) for low reps.

nospam.
:cool:

[ijedi]

Hello,

Silumkid, your post is the generally believed way to goals however is much too general and is inaccurate.

For developing strength you must first decide what kind of strength. Usually for the performance of weight lifting (that is lifting more in a single rep) train with weight that you could only lift 3 to 8 times. Rest interval is EXTREMELY important in lifting. In this case you will want rest 3 to 5 minutes before lifting again. Also, keep in mind proper warm-ups and stretching.

For Hypertrophy utilize weight that you can lift only 9 to 15 times. Your RI should be between 30 seconds and 2 minutes for maximal development of size.

Muscular endurance is different for a lot of different activities. The same endurance is not required for rowing than for boxing. Wrestling is an entirely different type of endurance. So you must first decide what type of endurance. Short duration, medium to long duration, and long durations of endurance require different training paradigms. Repetitions will vary. Any where from 30 to 150 reps per set are required. Most studies in this area have demonstrated that anything less than 30 reps really does not improve muscular endurance.

The most important factor is not the number of reps but utilizing the proper weight that is commensurate with the repetition goal.

There are also many other different types of lifting and training. There is a whole slew of power oriented paradigms that are ignored in the “less-reps-more-weight/more-reps-less-weight” paradigm.

Regarding the remarks made by nospam:

>Physical mass comes with muscle maturity.

This is not the case. Probably what you are referring to is actual strength, which has more to do with the CNS and muscular recruitment than actual muscle utilization.

>Get bigger? Lift heavy with a spotter. Concentrate on the large muscle group exercises.

Thanks for talking about a spotter. Most people fail to respect the weight and therefore become injured. Make sure your spotter is on the ball and not spacing out looking at the chicks in g strings. As far as large muscle group exercises go…if you want hypertrophy you absolutely need to perform simple as well as compound motion exercises. It is more with athletic training that you can delete more of the simple motion exercises (i.e., bicep curls, etc.).

>Stronger- will occur no matter the technique..

This is not true. Strength does not come with all lifting. You have to train for strength. In fact, some types of lifting can actually decrease the amount you can lift in a single rep.

As I have said in a previous post, first and foremost you must define what you are training for and then design the program around that.

Thanks.

[Leonidas]

Ok so heres my question. Whats the ideal weight lifting program for someone doing martial arts, specifically Kung Fu. Mainly for endurance but also to build some strength. Mass is not an issue since mobility is more important. Infact it would be better if there was really not alot of muscle growth.

.

[ijedi]

Hello Leonidas,

Good questions. Here’s my answers:

>What’s the ideal weight lifting program for someone doing martial arts, specifically Kung Fu.

There is no such thing. I would program entirely different for each person. If two people’s programs appeared to be the same that would be because they had similar data (i.e., age, height, weight, years of training, body composition, diet, stress, etc.) Sorry there is no one ideal routine. That does not mean that a martial artist cannot benefit from a lifting routine. However, one has to take into account the individual. People in my gym are often very confused when they see me workout. Knowing my background, they don’t question me. They only walk around with looks of bewilderment.

If you told me a little more about yourself (or whomever would be working out) I could answer your question more specifically.

>Mainly for endurance but also to build some strength.

You must remember that endurance is activity specific. The endurance you build is only for that particular activity. This does not mean that you shouldn’t run. But if you only have an hour to workout I would say use that hour to punch, kick, and do stance work [only a very general example as I do not know what art you study]. If you have two hours then run 5 miles after doing the previous training. The more time you have to train the more varied your training can be.

I myself workout over 30 hours a week. So I have a pretty good program that is written out until the end of 2002.

>Mass is not an issue since mobility is more important.

Mass does not always mean stability. If you ever stood on the field with a professional football player and saw how fast they were you might get a different idea about how fast a 300 pound man could move. Training the motions of your activity are the most important thing.

This is the most important point: MARTIAL ARTISTS SHOULD NOT TRAIN LIKE BODY BUILDERS!!! So please stop doing body builder and power lifting workouts. That is not to say that something you do is not included in a body building or power lifting routine. But more often than not, martial artists are just doing what some muscle head told them. These people are not fighters!

>Infact it would be better if there was really not alot of muscle growth.

Well your muscles are in a constant state of flux. Either they are growing (hypertrophy) or shrinking (atrophy). There is nothing in between.

Thanks.

[Apprentice]

hmmm, just to get an idea of what it will be like when i start training...

Stats:

Age: 17
Height: 5'5
Weight: 135
Body composition: Smaller waist, shoulders a little wider, pretty strong calves, thighs are strong, but have excess fat, can pinch about half an inch, abs are getting stronger, but still not as much as i'd like, got a six pack(if that means anything)...traps are big, but i dont feel they are strong(from doin shoulder shrugs)...back is not strong, like to get strong, neck is medium strenght, stronger than someone who's never done neck bridges or anything, like to get stronger...
Years Of training: Haven't started MA yet, as of working out, jes give me an idea of a beginners-intermediates
Diet: Don't eat enough(i dont think)...breakfast: If anything, some cereal, or eggs/toast/bacon, or biskits/sausage gravy, mmmmm
Stress: I can manage stress pretty good, so consider it little to none
Code Name: Viper...hehe, jes wanted to add that

Goals: Gain speed in punches and kicks)...gain strength in entire body, EVERYTHING, from head to toes, got toe pull ups? :D ...and gain a little weight, but slowly so i dont compromise speed or endurance which i have little of, like to gain...


Now, i hope i gave enough information for you to work with, if not, tell me and i'll hook ya up, thanx for any reply you may have in advance, knowledge is power

[Apprentice]

lol, forgot about lunch n dinner

Lunch: Soup n sandwich if i can mmmmm
Dinner: has a little protien n carbs

Overall calories: Changes every day to be honest, suggestions on things to eat'd be nice

[IronFist]

Uh, don't forget if you want to get BIG you have to EAT BIG!!!!

ijedi, why can't MA's train like BB'ers or Powerlifters? I train like a powerlifter, and it works well.

Training like a BB for martial arts is kind of difficult, because the soreness following a workout makes it difficult to perform MA techniques, but still, there are many people who bodybuild and practice MA.

What else, oh yeah, if you're going for size, keep the rest periods between sets down. Rest between 30 seconds and 1 minute 30 seconds. If you're going to strength without size, rest between each set until you've returned to normal breathing and lost any pump you may have gotten. Usually 3-5 minutes, or more.

Iron

[Silumkid]

ijedi,

Yeah, nifty, but did you not see the part where I said "These are some VERY general suggestions" which you went to the trouble to reiterate? Thanks, Captain Redundant.

It's cool you want to help people out and all, just try not making yourself look better by slamming me next time. It leaves a bad impression.

[IronFist]

Hey ijedi, i think you have a phone call from the Department of Redundancy Department.

:D

Iron

[IronFist]

ijedi said:
I myself workout over 30 hours a week.

Was this supposed to be impressive? Quality, not quantity. Unless your 30 hours a week is 30 hours of Stone Warrior, "working out over 30 hours a week" means nothing.

Iron

[ElPietro]

I agree 30 hours means very little. In fact probably is a very bad thing. Many people could have superior gains from 3 hours a week versus 30. It's a simple formula, lift/eat/rest. You will have no gains if you don't get adequate rest and then 30 hours becomes wasted time...

[scotty1]

Seeing as we have Ironfist, Elpietro and IJedi all here in the same room (kind of), I have a question.

I am approx 5'10", 9.5 stone, small framed, skinny but well defined.
I want to inrease strength but a nice by-product would be getting a bit stockier. I lift weights 2 hours a week.

I know it's heavy weights / low reps (3-8) for strength (ie. single lift strength, which to my mind translates to big punches)
and medium weights/medium reps for growth (9-15)

So if I used a weight that I could lift 10 times, would that be a good compromise between strength and hypertrophy?

[ElPietro]

Hmmm...it is difficult to say what is ideal as we'd have to see what your progression is each way. Everyone reacts somewhat differently to different volume of weights.

For mass the most important thing is caloric intake...no matter how much you workout you won't add weight to become "stockier" without added calories. Try to find your maintainence caloric level...so basically the amount of calories you consume and stay at the same weight. Then add some calories to that number and you will start gaining weight.

If it was me, and my main goal was strength, I would probably stay in the 3-5 rep range which is more of a powerlifter routine, but powerlifting is also something entirely different, and doesn't promote muscle hypertrophy. I think if you stick within the 6-12 rep range you will be ok. If you pyramid a bit and then you are going to failure on your last two sets in the 6-8 rep range you will still be in a good target zone for hypertrophy. Consume high GI carbs with your post workout shake/meal and try to increase the amount of weight you are lifting each time you get out there. Even if it's a small amount like putting 2.5lbs on either side on your bench press it can help you get out of a plateau. I posted a great article in another thread that is quite long, but if you read that it should give you a pretty detailed picture of what is going on.

It's always best to do a bit of research and then ask questions before you start. Which is exactly what you are doing. :D

[ElPietro]

Oh also forgot to mention that rest is extremely important. Many people don't give enough focus on how much rest plays a role in working out. You grow when you are sleeping so make sure you get a good 8 hours rest each night...this is my general problem. Also, try to train each muscle group only once per week.

Here's a link to that thread I was talking about:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7901

[ijedi]

Regarding 30 hours of working out…

The prior sentence was: “The more time you have to train the more varied your training can be.”

I didn’t tell you what I did for that 30 hours. How can you judge my program based on the amount of time. I simply stated the time element because most people don’t have a lot of time in their week to train. I accomplish many different types of training in those 30 hours. Strength, cardio, flexibilty, balance, coordination, skill development, timing, etc...

You must prioritize your training for your activity. If you only have 3 hours a week of free time, then you are probably better off spending that time practicing your art and not in the gym. Just my opinion.

>Why can't MA's train like BB'ers or Powerlifters? I train like a powerlifter, and it works well.

I am wondering if you truly train as a powerlifter or just use powerlifting techniques. There is a big difference. I don’t know enough about your program to elaborate further.
As far as Body Building goes…the fact remains we should be training to fight. Bodybuilders and powerlifters have very specific goals and those goals have nothing to do with fighting.

Does a wrestler train the same as a boxer? No. As they shouldn’t, because they are different activities. However, could a martial artist train like both a boxer and wrestler? I have seen this done and while I am not endorsing this approach it makes more sense than training in body building or powerlifting.

>Thanks, Captain Redundant.

Good name calling. It adds much to our discussion. Thanks. But if you took the time to really read my post you would understand that I was not “slamming” you. The info you gave is widely believed to be true. However after the fall of the Soviet Union a lot of their training material was released to the west. We have learned much in the way of sports training from them in the last 10 years.

When you read this information you understand that doing 15 reps DOES NOT increase muscular endurance. It is more for the aesthetics of the muscle.

I truly don’t think I am better. I just happen to be fortunate in that I get paid to study exercise and train people. I would not take the time to write these posts if I didn’t want to help people. I apologize if any ill will was taken. There was none meant.

>So if I used a weight that I could lift 10 times, would that be a good compromise between strength and hypertrophy?

Sets of 10 reps are generally believed to produce hypertrophy. Really the studies say at rep 9 is where hypertrophy occurs. If you want a balance of strength and hypertrophy you are better off going through periods of different lifting paradigms.

For instance, for 3 weeks lift for strength. Then for 6 weeks lift for hypertrophy. Being that I don’t know your present condition remember that these time periods are not to be taken literally.

Also, a big lift does not necessarily mean a big punch. My brother lifts three times what I lift, but because of my training, my punch is much more powerful than his.

You can’t judge power and skill by aesthetics.

Thanks.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by ijedi
Regarding 30 hours of working out…

The prior sentence was: “The more time you have to train the more varied your training can be.”

I didn’t tell you what I did for that 30 hours. How can you judge my program based on the amount of time. I simply stated the time element because most people don’t have a lot of time in their week to train. I accomplish many different types of training in those 30 hours. Strength, cardio, flexibilty, balance, coordination, skill development, timing, etc...

When you read this information you understand that doing 15 reps DOES NOT increase muscular endurance. It is more for the aesthetics of the muscle.


I didn't expect you to weight train 30 hours a week...but just wanted to get you to post more detail as some newbies could take it as such. So glad we got that out of the way.

I assume most of the rest of your post wasn't directed at me so the only thing I wanted to address is your term asthetics when it comes to muscle. Could you explain this further? The only reason I ask is that there is no real muscle asthetics. You can't shape your muscle, well unless your doctor takes a scalpel to it. You can either grow or shrink your muscle tissue that's it. You have only so many fibres which do not increase in number, only size, dependant on how you train. If you want your muscles to appear different then it is a function of bodyfat manipulation. The shape of your muscle is pre-determined, so you could work flat bench all your life instead of flat and incline and your muscle if it grew at the same rate would be the exact same shape. So I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding what you mean. If you could clarify a bit that would be cool. Thanks.

[ijedi]

>address your term aesthetics when it comes to muscle.

Hello, and thanks for the post. I am not one that does not like to be challenged. I agree that just saying 30 hours could easily be misunderstood. Thanks for asking.

You are correct in that muscle cannot be shaped. However, a glycogen difference and a training (which equals recruitment) of fast twitch or slow twitch muscle fiber may be accomplished depending on how one trains.

In other words, strength vs. size. This is actually too general of a breakdown but for our purposes here it will suffice.

Just because someone is big, does not mean they are strong. When I say aesthetics, I mean the size and symmetry of the muscle.

This is what bodybuilding is judged on (among other things). My point is that just because someone looks good, does not mean they can perform. I have trained young men for sports who had been doing bodybuilding workouts who appeared to be in stellar condition. Most of them don’t make it through 20 minutes of sports training before they vomit. [BTW I am not proud of this. I only say this to illustrate the point that these guys thought they were in much better shape than they were.]

Then you take a kid who looks out of shape, but has been doing a lot of sports related training. He is going strong after an hour. The old adage, “don’t judge a book by its cover” is really true in my experience.

>so you could work flat bench all your life instead of flat and
incline and your muscle if it grew at the same rate would be the exact same shape.

While this is true if you are talking about one specific muscle, it is not entirely accurate being that there are different parts of the pectoralis (major and minor). The angle at which the bench press is done will recruit different percentages of these two muscles. Thus, there is a good rationale for doing incline, decline, and flat bench. Also as you know using various grips will change recruitment. Thus, using dumbbells vs. barbells, wide-grip vs. close-grip, etc.

Also, you can improve strength without causing hypertrophy. This has more to do with training the CNS to recruit more fast twitch muscle fibers for explosive movements.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by ijedi
[BWhile this is true if you are talking about one specific muscle, it is not entirely accurate being that there are different parts of the pectoralis (major and minor). The angle at which the bench press is done will recruit different percentages of these two muscles. Thus, there is a good rationale for doing incline, decline, and flat bench. Also as you know using various grips will change recruitment. Thus, using dumbbells vs. barbells, wide-grip vs. close-grip, etc.[/B]

I agree pretty much with most of what you said, however, I hope I misunderstood you in what I quoted above or you have seriously undermined my opinion of your knowledge with this statement. The whole upper/lower, inner/outer pectoral training is the biggest myth in all of bodybuilding. I (and countless thousands) have explained countless times how you cannot train different regions of a muscle as it is the most common question for a newbie to ask. I just started typing a long explanation but thought I'd go copy and paste a well worded explanation from elsewhere.

Here it is...

"The existence of the so-called "upper", "lower", "inner" and "outer" pectorals along with the assertion that it is possible to isolate one or more of these to the relative exclusion of the others in training, are among the most firmly entrenched myths in Strength Training and Bodybuilding circles. In fact none of these truly exist as either separate and distinct muscles or regions in a functional sense. Even though it could be argued that there appears to be a structural distinction between the upper and lower pectorals (and some anatomy texts do in fact support this distinction though not all do) because the pectoralis-major does originate from both the sternum and the proximal or sternal half of the clavicle along it’s anterior surface (it also has connections to the cartilages of all the true ribs with the frequent exception of the first and seventh, and to the Aponeurosis of the external oblique muscle), this is considered to be a common (though extensive) origin in terms of the mechanical function of the muscle. Thus the pectoralis-major is in fact for all practical purposes one continuous muscle with a common origin and insertion, and functions as a single force-producing unit. The terms upper, lower, inner and outer are imprecise and relevant only in order to make a vague subjective distinction between relative portions of the same muscle for descriptive purposes. They are vague and imprecise terms because there is no clearly delineated or universally defined border between them.
Further it is not physically possible either in theory or practice to contract one region of a single muscle to the exclusion of another region or regions (as a Biomechanics Professor of mine once demonstrated to a bunch of us smart-ass know-it-all’s taking his course, using EMG analysis). When a muscle contracts it does so in a linear fashion by simultaneously reducing the length of its constituent fibers and thus its overall length from origin to insertion. Even where a single muscle is separated into multiple functional units that are clearly defined such as the triceps (which are referred to as “heads” by Anatomists and Biomechanists), because they share a common point of insertion in order for one head to shorten all must shorten. This only makes sense if you think about it because otherwise there would be “slack” in one when the other shortened, which as we know does not occur. Note that there are some special cases where one head of a muscle must actually lengthen when the other shortens (e.g. the posterior head of the deltoid in relation to the anterior head during the positive stroke of fly’s), the point however is that even in these special cases there is no “slack” because there is in fact contractile activity (whether concentric or eccentric) throughout the muscle.
That is not to say however, that all fibers in different areas, or heads are necessarily shortened to the same degree during a particular movement. Depending on the shape of the muscle, the joint geometry involved, and the specific movement being performed, fibers in one area of a muscle or head may be required to shorten more or less than in others (or even to lengthen) in order to complete the required movement. For example during a decline fly though muscle fibers in all regions of the pectoralis-major must shorten as the upper arm is drawn towards the median plane of the body, because of the angle of the arm in relation to the trunk the fibers in what we commonly refer to as the lower pecs will have shortened by a greater percentage of their overall length than those in the upper region of the muscle by the completion of the movement. Conversely when performing an incline fly there is greater shortening in the fibers towards the upper portion of the muscle than in the lower.
Many proponents of the so-called “isolation” approach to training claim that this proportionally greater shortening of the fibers equates to greater tension in the “target” region than in others, and therefore stimulates greater adaptation; but this is completely at odds with the cross-bridge model of muscle contraction which clearly shows that as fiber length decreases tension also declines due to increasing overlap and interference in the area of the cross-bridges. Some also contend that the fibers called upon to shorten to a greater degree tend to fatigue faster than others and that therefore there is greater overall fiber recruitment in the region where this occurs, and thus a greater stimulus to growth; but there is no evidence to suggest that a fiber fatigues faster in one position than in another in relation to other fibers in the same muscle. In fact it has been shown that Time Under Tension (TUT) is the determining factor in fatigue and not fiber length. In fact fiber recruitment tends to increase in a very uniform fashion throughout an entire muscle as fatigue sets in.
The ability to “isolate” a head, or region of a muscle to the exclusion of others by performing a particular movement, or by limiting movement to a particular plane and thus develop it to a greater degree, is a myth created by people who wish to appear more knowledgeable than they are, and has been perpetuated by trade magazines and parroted throughout gyms everywhere. It is pure non-sense and completely ignores the applicable elements of physiology, anatomy, and physics in particular. Quite simply the science does not support it, and in most cases is completely at odds with the idea.
Regardless of the science however, many people will remain firmly convinced that muscle isolation is a reality because they can “feel” different movements more in one region of a muscle than in others. This I do not dispute, nor does science. There is in fact differentiated neural feedback from motor units depending on the relative length of the component fibers, and this feedback tends to be (or is interpreted by the brain as) more intense when the fibers in question are either shortened (contracted) or lengthened (stretched) in the extreme. However this has to do with proprioception (the ability to sense the orientation and relative position of your body in space by interpreting neural feedback related to muscle fiber length and joint position) and not tension, fatigue, or level of fiber recruitment. Unfortunately it has been seized upon and offered up as “evidence” by those looking to support their ideas by any means available.
Muscle shape is a function of genetics and degree of overall development. As you develop a muscle towards its potential, it does change in appearance (generally for the better) but always within the parameters defined by its inherent shape. A person who tends to have proportionately more mass towards the upper, lower, inner or outer region of his or her pectoralis-major will always have that tendency, though it may be more or less apparent at various stages in their development, and in most cases appears less pronounced as overall development proceeds. That is not to say that training a muscle group from multiple angles is totally without value. In fact we know that even subtly different movements can elicit varying levels of fiber recruitment within a muscle in an overall sense (i.e. in terms of the percentage of total available fibers) due to differences in joint mechanics, and neural activation patterns, as well as varying involvement of synergistic and antagonistic muscle groups involved. So by all means experiment with different angles in your training, but don’t expect to be able to correct so-called “unbalanced” muscles this way, or to target specific areas of a particular muscle. Work to develop each of your muscles as completely as possible and shape will take care of itself. If you want to worry about “shaping” you should pay more attention to the balance between different muscle groups and work to bring up any weak groups you may have in relation to the rest of your physique."

Hope that helped anyone who believed in the myth...and I hope I misunderstood what you were saying ijedi.

[IronFist]

Ding! Round one.


Sections of muscles cannot be isolated.

Iron

[ijedi]

Hello,

Thanks for the post ElPietro! Great info. Yes, I believe you did misunderstand. As you know it can be difficult to discuss some of these issues and not write text books for each post. So I try and keep my words to a minimum. Thus, misunderstanding’s occur.

My quote was referring to two different muscles: the pectoralis major and pectoralis minor. In most theories muscles act on a “all or none” principle. That is, muscle fibers either contract or they do not. They do not know how to contract half way. The more strength is needed the more muscle fibers are recruited to perform the lift. Both of those muscles are not recruited in the same ways at the same time. But , if you are talking strictly about the pectoralis major (singular muscle) then of there is no such thing as isolation.

However, in performing the bench press, the pectoralis are not the only muscles involved and in the lift. So at various angles and grips the triceps and deltoids can play a greater or lesser role in the lift.

Thanks.

[scotty1]

Thanks.

[wushu chik]

ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS.....WHO IN HERE IS A CERTIFIED PERSONAL TRAINER???

~Wen~

[Silumkid]

wushu chik,

Sometimes, that doesn't mean jack. You should have seen some of the people who were at the last IDEA conference in San Francisco. In particular was a woman who got winded coming up one flight of stairs, about 275 pounds, telling everyone who would listen that she was a certified trainer/nutritionist. And I won't even mention all the "Lifestyle Management" certificate folks...yeesh.