for 18 old men

[flem]

I learned fighting applications from master chan, maybe he simply held you back. He seems very wise, perhaps he saw you as a future "talk-fu" expert and chose not to take the time. Oh, and I am no longer in the system in case you believe I am just another brain-washed croney.

[Pong Lai]

"I learned fighting applications from master chan, maybe he simply held you back. He seems very wise, perhaps he saw you as a future "talk-fu" expert and chose not to take the time. "

18 Elders, the above seems to be an invite / challenge, ooh.
Let me know where and when the match will be. I think this is the only way these related threads will be resolved.

Flem;
You should return to the style! You would be the sole inheritor of the style. It is pretty easy to come to the conclusion from the skits the elders (Mimi ans company)in the style produce, that they have no clue what fighting is about. Sorry, Fighting is more than putting on pads and waving your arms and legs.

WL:
Wake up and smell thr roses, do your own research, learn Chinese, (your learn much more about what your studying) and perhaps consider another forum that pertains to your style, Southern Kung Fu. The WL practitioner will then start to understand the forum contents. Obviously you are unable to particpate in the Northern Praying Mantis Section because you have NOTHING within your style that relates beasides a Name!

All responses are more than welcome.

[woliveri]

Geezz flem, you must'a been waving lots of greenbacks his way. Got deep pockets? :D :D :D ;) ;) ;)

[18elders]

Well flem, you must have been the chosen one, but i guess his wisdom failed him because the chosen one is no longer in the system.
It is no surprise to me because you probably forget the stuff anyways, i mean you can't even read, my user name is 18elders. I guess you are just demonstrating your IQ.
Did he show you the 2 person sets to any of these:
forms 1-6
lok low 1-4
little mantis, big mantis
18 elbows
plum flower
saylok
little fan cha, big fan cha
little open gate
how about any of the exercises?
Must i go on?

What's the application to elbow to toe?

[Olethros]

"What's the application of elbow to toe?"
Um, How about having really stretchy legs?

:)

For those that did study WL, and are addressing these questions, why did you leave?
Why did you take up the style you are in now? Are you continuing your training?

[SaMantis]

Maybe they'll spend so much time arguing over ways to insult Wah Lum that they'll forget to go back into their caves before the sun comes up.

I await the next half-assed, ill-informed anti-WL comment. If only for my own entertainment. :rolleyes:

Sincerely,

Brainwashed Croney

[18elders]

Thanks for proving my point.
There is application for it beside just a stretch, there are also mantis hand moves to it but you didn't learn that.

[NorthernMantis]

What the?? Hey Pong Lai when was 7 kicks a southern form or 2nd form or straight form??

We can fight.Would you like to come and try it?

18 old men:D

Who says every form has to have 2 man forms in order for it to be an authentic style?

Why in the world does everyone have to attack wah lum when the chance comes up?Were you that traumatized that you couldn't get over it?It's in the past leave it be.

If you want to fight then go ahead ,if not then shut up and leave it be.I'm getting sick of this.What would Lee Kwan Shan think?

Why did I take the style?I didn't want to take karate and it was the first school that I came in contact with.

Are you continuing your training?4 1/2 years and still going at it!

[SaMantis]

18elders,

I think this was said before in this forum, although it was several months ago:

Some people come to Wah Lum (and other styles) expecting to learn martial arts in a certain way -- usually in a way that they imagined or that they saw on TV or in movies. They're disappointed when they find out that real life doesn't measure up to their preconceived expectations.

This also can happen with people who came to WL from other styles (I don't know if you had previous MA experience before studying at WL), and don't like the way classes are taught, or the speed at which they're learning, and so on.

Then again, there are people who come to Wah Lum with expectations (I'm sure many people out there saw Karate Kid or Kickboxer and ran to the nearest MA school, expecting Mr. Miyagi to be waiting at the door). They lose those preconceived notions, but they stay, for any number of personal reasons.

Students come and students go. If they stay, they learn. If they decide to go, no one has any ill will against them. That was their decision. Some go into other systems and find their footing there, and I think that's great. Good on them.

18elders, you obviously didn't find what you wanted at Wah Lum. There's nothing wrong with that. But with the amount of experience you list in your profile, you should be way above coming in here and bashing another school, no matter what happened.

In another vein -- what led you to study the different styles you now take? Application? Number of two-man forms? The sifu? The friendships you have formed in class? This isn't a bash -- I want to know what drives you to study kung fu and why you chose each system (including Wah Lum) when you did. People stay in martial arts because some aspect of it feeds their souls -- lord knows if it didn't, I wouldn't have lasted beyond the first 3 months. :)

Now everybody stop this bashing, it's pointless. Slamming WL won't improve your kung fu.

Sam

[18elders]

In reply to some of your questions:
I started WM to learn praying mantis kung fu. After training in it for a while and going over to China i noticed a big difference in what other mantis styles were like compared to WM. I'm sure others in WM will agree that everyone likes what Master Jang taught them in China. I also went to Taiwan and that is were my eyes really opened. My kung fu brother from Wm sought out more mantis knowledge and moved to Taiwan to train with a famous Mantis Master. He lived there for 10 years but would come back to the States frequently and we would train. Me and my other WM kung fu brothers always wondered why it was so different, everything is 2 person drills, 2 person forms, application,application,application.
The movement is different, my teacher always says tai chi yao and tonglong shou.
There isn't that movement in WM.
So i started to research more mantis and wah lum mantis.
Even mantis catches the cicada, in WM only half of the technique is performed.
One of the most basic moves in mantis(although important) is gou lou tsai, where is it in wah lum forms?
There are ground fighting forms in mantis, take downs, kicking forms.
One of the characteristics of mantis is the many 2 person forms. I wondered why isn't it in WM?
All the basic exercises are 2 person, warm up exercises applications to them. Your kung fu training will improve alot if everything you do is 2 person. Not just solo forms and a self defense move here and there.
You guys say spoon fed, that's bull****. You won't understand a technique until you are doing it full blast in a 2 person situation with the other guy really trying to hit you. Why you block a certain way and why your waist movement is important. The single form is not the technique exactly, you can't dream up the techniques as they tell you to do in WM.
When Master Shr comes here he will do a seminar. If you really want to know what i'm talking about you should come and see, It is only a 2 hour drive from the temple.
So that is why i started to question wm. I liked it when i was in it but then i saw what mantis is really like, then i felt disappointed.
Sure i learned some nice forms but that's it.
I don't think i'm bashing it, just trying to learn about its history since there are so many different stories.
If i wanted to bash it i could say alot more that i have learned through the years but i don't.

[SaMantis]

18 elders,

There's no question that there are some great teachers over in Taiwan (I have a friend studying tai chi there now). I'm glad you found a style that you liked and that answered the questions you had.

Asking questions about Wah Lum history is fine. It's just that you are couching some negative opinions within your questions which makes the Wah Lum people on this board suspect your motives. So far, no one has been able to answer a question without your questioning its validity. That's fine; the problem is people like me who have little experience are afraid to explain what we know for fear of being labeled "stupid." Seems like many people on the board can't wait to poke fun at WL students.

The stories about Chan Wan Ching and the Big Fight between Lee Kwan Shan and the Yang guy seem to change every time someone tells them here. The best way to confirm this kind of info is for people to list their source material; where exactly they heard their version of the story. That way others can learn more and (hopefully) a definitive history will emerge, one way or another.

(Sorry to digress. I just remembered doing a research paper in college on the patriarch of a Southern family -- a friend's grandfather. My friend's stories about his grandfather were entertaining, but did not match the official records and other family stories I gathered about him. Everyone had a different version of the same stories -- and he was born just 2 generations ago! In a way, it applies to the LKS/Chan Wan Ching stories.)

As far as asking about applications behind the moves, ask away. I'll try and answer to the best of my limited ability (NorthernMantis and other WL'ers probably know more). I only ask that we discuss it in the spirit of KF practitioners trading knowledge. Right now, many of your questions seem like a challenge; that may not be your intention but it is my perception. I DO know applications; explaining them in 10 words or less is where I stumble. If you don't want to trade info on the board, feel free to e-mail me.

:)
Sam

[flem]

my intention in addressing this forum was to add credance to master chan (croney) was used because 18elders seems to be under the impression that one needs to be a sucker to practice wah lum. i did not learn the two-person sets, nor did i claim any titles like"chosen". i simply said that master chan taught me fighting applications.(at no cost)
18elders
you are full of it to turn around and try to play the innocent historian- as your past threads have done nothing but throw backstabs at both wah lum and master chan, for certainly if someone with your experience would know the answers to your questions it would be you. i choose to ignore your insults/challenge as only an idiot would do so without knowing who they are challenging.

[18elders]

you choose to ignore my insults:

I believe you started them. You changed my user name to 18 old men, and then called me a talk-fu expert.
I didn't change your name to mucus.
Now you call me an idiot, i don't remember me posting a challenge to you, go over the posts again.
Yes i question the mantis in wahlum and why applications and 2 person drills are not taught, maybe people in wm with more years of training should also wonder.
I know many sifus in the system that do wonder and wish it would be taught, my questions is why isn't it.
If you are happy just learning forms that is great, but if you are learning and one day you wish to open your own school you should know how to use your kung fu.
What do you tell your students when they ask you how to apply the techniques? I don't know, i was never shown. But aren't you a sifu, how can you not know?
Your math teacher should be able to show you how to solve an a equation shouldn't they?
I agree with Sa mantis, there are too many versions of the history, that's why i question things.
The handbook says LKS was born in 1888 and died in 1948. That makes him 60. Mimi's article says he fought into his 80's, the handbook says he was only 60, i have read others that say he was 76?

[flem]

i apologize. i read a thread by pong lai as yours- the challenge part- as far as IQ is concerned maybe you should check the spelling of flem---phlegm- mucus??

[18elders]

it isn't about the spelling, i know the correct way to spell it, it was the disrespect you intended.
Wasn't too much else to say about the name.
Why did you leave the system?
What do you train in now?

[7kicks]

I am still very confused about Wah Lum not practicing 2 man drills? Also no self defense what the hell are you freaks talking about? We do Line drills and break down the forms and break down into 2 man groups and practice the combat applications to all the forms hand and weapons!!! Maybe what we have here are a bunch of Wah Lum flunkies? who are using this lame ass history excuse because they couldn't ride the storm and stick with WL. Maybe they thought it was going to be an easy ride and found out that WL is not an easy system to learn.

Let's turn the page here and ask this question can all you anti- Wah Lum folks tell me that if this system is so fake than how did this great imposter Pui Chan manage to fool alot of Masters from other styles and alot of smart people who have and still are following him? I guess i'll just keep on being one of those suckers and keep with WL.

[flem]

i left WL because it is too big for the individual- the style is more important than the practitioner. i believe this to be the case with many chinese systems as there is a considerable concern with large numbers. i also believe that is also the reason the majority of kung fu styles have such huge curriculums. the japanese emphasize comparatively simple styles but rely on one strike-lots of power. the comparison of weapons between chinese and japanese systems is a perfect example the japanese rely on the dexterity of their weapon to cut thru anything whereas the chinese skills seem to revolve around many weapons and technique to make up for inferior tools.

i continue to explore my WL material but am most interested in tai chi-- i find that it as i advance it resembles praying mantis more and more

[18elders]

i'm glad you guys do that, maybe Nelson understands it should be taught.
I'm not a flunky, i was a sifu in the system, if you think i'm a flunky then the system is a flunky for not teaching the sifu's properly and the sifu test is a complete joke.
If you are taught the applications then give me 6 applications for mantis catches the cicada.
How about the applications for wah lum exercise #7?

[chrisreed]

i also was in wah lum for a time. though i still respect and am greatful of all my wah lum sifu did for me, i left. i left becauce i wanted to lern how to use gong fu to fight.

[NorthernMantis]

"gong fu to fight."

Gong fu??Says a lot buddy.You sound like one of those Bruce Lee fans.We do know how to fight.Why don't you come and try?I'm tired of all you posters.What you want yto fight?Then do it if not then shut up.

seems that a lot of trash talkers are getting bold and popping up left and right.I would think that your sifu's would teach you better than this.

I have a 7 star mantis friend that I occasionally touch hands with and he has nothing bad to say about the style I suggest you do the same.

[Pong Lai]

I would suggest you conduct further research before being so bold.

I have plenty of time, send a ticket!

As several posters on WL have stated, much of what is posted is NOT bashing, though questioning its history of a style that is documented no where else in the world except the USA. The cultural revolution destroyed much, but Kung Fu(written)history was kept intact for the most part.

Just answer the questions that arise with confidence not ****iness.

It is natural to compare and to be competitive, that is putting the "Martial" back in Martial Arts. :cool:

[NorthernMantis]

As several posters on WL have stated, much of what is posted is NOT bashing, though questioning its history of a style that is documented no where else in the world except the USA.

You fool I was one of those people saying that.

Originally posted by Pong lai


Wake up and smell thr roses, do your own research, learn Chinese, (your learn much more about what your studying) and perhaps consider another forum that pertains to your style, southern kung fu . The WL practitioner will then start to understand the forum contents. Obviously you are unable to particpate in the Northern Praying Mantis Section because you have NOTHING within your style that relates beasides a Name!

Doesn't sound ike questioning... it's more more like bashing.You're such a hypocrite.That satement you made was a stab at wah lum and you know it.It's not even disguised as a question like some people have.It's not a question but more of an insult.It looks more like you're looking for a fight.

Yes I have made lots of research on my style and it's not a
southern style .

Now you tell me since you're a wah lum expert.How is 7 kicks,a form with mostly kicks and little punching, a southern form?How is say lok a southern form?The same thing can be said about 2nd form,straight form,little mantis etc. Ho is it southern?You say it's southern but people on other boards are claiming it's modern wu shu because someone saw an inverted butterfly kick.Tell me why is it southern?

They have nothing in common with southern forms granted that we do have deep stances but so what?Do we barely move and take small space,with 1st form being an exception, like southern forms?No, they cover a lot of space like a northern set.Do we have short strikes like a southern style?No we don't,it's very long fist like.

I suggest you do research 'cause you don't know jack about you are talking about.

I heard people say wah lum moves like choy lay fut.Guess what?I showed one of my close friends who trained under Lee Koon Hung and he says wah lum looks nothing like choynlay fut and even started making fun of me for it.He said and I quote "man you guys move nothing like choy lay fut.Why do you move so far down the road?In our forms we barely move from the same place." and then he kept poking fun by saying that he could do a wah lum form and go all the way down to the gas station and get something for his mom.

I have a friend that does hung gar and 7 star mantis and even he says wah lum is northern.

My sifu did 7 star mantis before to coming to wah lum and she says it's northern.

I'd send you the ticket but unfortinately I don't have any money.Now Mr. wah lum expert you tell me why it's asouthern style?

I am and I have come out with confidence.I'm just tired of all this trash you keep spewing and then playing the innocent part.I have answered most questions given to me in the question for wah lum people thread in a respectful manner without losing my temper.At least 18 elders had questions you just have an insult saying how we are a southern style.It was you who came in with the insult not me.

I expect Master Shr doesn't condone this type of behavior.I bet he doesn't even know you're saying this,some kung fu student you are.I think he would find it interesting if he knew how you were acting.

[flem]

chrisreed


what are you doing to learn how to fight?

[woliveri]

Northern or Southern: I once performed 1st form for a high level Qi Gong Master and when finished he just said, ah Southern Kung Fu. I don't know why and was taken a-back. As far as I know the definition of a Northern style would be long, extended movements and a Southern style would have close, in fighting movements. This is a general characterization and each style would have elements of either depending on the history. I don't know how this master could look at 1st form though and call it southern. My knowledge is limited in this area so perhaps someone else could expand.

Other notes regarding Wah Lum: Still the question was never answered why WL allows "sanctioned" seminars with "friends of the school" but doesn't allow students to attend other seminars on their own. The only possible answers I can come up with is either a. Politics or b. WL is using it's students to help other schools financally. In either case the student's well being and advancement is not the main focus unless you want to imply that there is a 'c' where that is the purpose of these "controls", to guide the student. I don't think so.

Why I left Wah Lum: Actually I had never planned to leave WL but 2, actually 3, factors were involved in that decision. 1. I met two individuals who taught without holding back. Both of these individuals (one Chinese the other Vietnamese) held no secrets and taught for the love of the art. The Chinese taught me Qi Gong (along with his master) and the Vietnamese taught me Chinese and Vietnamese Martial arts. Also, applications and some fighting (as much as I could handle) with my ass getting kicked hard. Also, both never charged me a cent but taught for the love of the art. I still love the forms of WL but know there's a lot more quality stuff out there. Now however I'm on a different path and do not plan to practice external arts again anyway but the deviation in my path at that time was eye opening.

I always look for quality in whatever I do so if I were in Florida now and looking for a school and listening to these conversations plus what I know about WL now I would definately be looking at 18 Elders school without a doubt. Sounds like he is looking for quality as well. Not to say that Wah Lum is not quality, just less complete than what I'm hearing from 18 Elders.

Cheers!!

[18elders]

What does Shelly's husband think about it?
There are northern forms and southern forms,
leopard is southern, little and big buddha palm southern,18 elbows southern, 36 hands, master stick, lo gar spear, tiger fork , butterfly knives.
As far as your friend saying it doesn't look like choy lay fut, that is interesting because Master Chan told a sifu that it is influenced by CLF.
Anyone know any northern styles that have woo dip ma stance in it?

If you don't have the money for the ticket, i will pay for it for you.



Well said woliveri

[chrisreed]

flem,

a lot of apps. at regular speed. also we stay with the system rather than doing orms and then sparring with chop suey kick boxing. instead we use mantis. i never realy learned any mantis in the few years i practiced wah lum.


as far as being trolls in a cave: cave is a great choice of words. i think some of you guys should read " the alligorie of the cave" in socrotes' republic . it might shed some "light" on some of your situations.

[chrisreed]

master chan is well respected because your are told he is.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Thanks for the support flem but any challenges to Wah Lum can and will be handled by the Temple.

It could be argued that every style is incomplete or missing something. It depends on what you want or expect from a style. As for 'chop suey' kung fu, it seems to me that a number of well known and respected masters from the past have mixed and matched from different styles in a effort to fill in what they believed to be missing. This is not to be confused with the more current styles put together by students who jumped around from one Sifu to another without really learning one style completely.

Northern and Southern in Wah Lum? You bet! Are you saying that's a bad thing? Lee Kwan Shan mastered his family style of Tam Tui. At the Wah Lum Temple he found Praying Mantis and saw the value in it. Mantis hands and Tam Tui legs seemed a perfect match to him and since he fought for a living I consider him qualified to make that judgement. Considering that his life depended on his martial arts he couldn't afford to ignore techniques and styles that worked. In his travels I'm sure he picked up moves from a variety of styles including southern styles.

Is there Plum Flower Mantis in Wah Lum? How about did Wah Lum moves find their way into Plum Flower? The fact that Wah Lum has forms that are also in other styles only indicates a common source, not that Wah Lum took from another style.

I've been challenged to do some research and I will. Will the results have any bearing on what I'm learning? Probably not. The history is interesting but I don't really care who or where any of it came from as long as I can get some value from it.

If history and lineage is so all important then maybe the ones questioning the validity of Wah Lum should post their own pedigree!

[NorthernMantis]

What does Shelly's husband think about it? Nothing, it's just another style of kung fu to him.Master Huang has passed by class a couple of times.

What style of mantis do you practice again?

"If you don't have the money for the ticket, i will pay for it for you."

Good give him a one way ticket to Orlando.I never said I can fight him (give me a couple of years I'm still learning) :p just that our style can fight.Tell him to pass by on thursday's for sparring :D

Like Hua Lin said "Thanks for the support flem but any challenges to Wah Lum can and will be handled by the Temple. "

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri

"Other notes regarding Wah Lum: Still the question was never answered why WL allows "sanctioned" seminars with "friends of the school" but doesn't allow students to attend other seminars on their own. The only possible answers I can come up with is either a. Politics or b. WL is using it's students to help other schools financally."

Or could it be c. Master Chan doesn't want his students to learn from someone with questionable abillity, knowledge or credentials. If he doesn't think the material is worthwhile or he doesn't think it's rght for you then he won't let you go.

I've been noticing a trend where if you don't agree with your Sifu or he doesn't teach you what you want when you want you go somewhere else. Whatever happened to trusting your Sifu to train you as he feels neccessary in his PROFESSIONAL experience. Do you all of a sudden know better than your Sifu?

[NorthernMantis]

"I've been noticing a trend where if you don't agree with your Sifu or he doesn't teach you what you want when you want you go somewhere else. "

I agree with you Hua Lin.Recently I was talking to a frined of mine's who know a couple of siuf's who don't want to teach Americans or Americaised Asians because they are disrespectful.

Now I understand why some kung fu masters didn't want to teach kung fu to the public they knew things like this would happen.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

chrisreed
Your comment "master chan is well respected because your are told he is." might be true in your case but anytime I've been with him in the US and China he is treated like a major somebody. He always seems to be in charge and everyone goes out of their way to accomodate him. He apparently earned it somewhere at sometime.

[NorthernMantis]

" I met two individuals who taught without holding back. Both of these individuals (one Chinese the other Vietnamese) held no secrets "

What's wrong with that?Is it wrong to hold secrets?Don't forget that was the way it was done and will always be done.Not only in my style but many others.

18elders-

No offense but you don't need to speak for Pong Lai.I'm sure he has his own mind.My apologies if I seem to come out rude.

It still doesn't doesn't change the fact that he is a hypocrite saying that no one is throwing insults when you can plainly see that he did.Either that or his memory is short.

[woliveri]

Or could it be c. Master Chan doesn't want his students to learn from someone with questionable abillity, knowledge or credentials. If he doesn't think the material is worthwhile or he doesn't think it's rght for you then he won't let you go.

Come on Hua Lin Laoshi, now your being funny.

How does:

Wing Chung (Mok Poi On),
Choy Lee Fut (Lee Koon Hung),
7-Star (Brenden Lai) (actually his information was useful because he taught us a training method not a form),
Plum Flower Mantis (Zheng Bing Dao),
Chen Tai Chi (Li En Jiao),
Shao Lin Wu Shu (Shao Lin Monks),

integrate into your Wah Lum Training? Look at the pattern.

Why would MC get so ****ed at a pro student for not wanting to take a seminar and then take the $$ from the student after the seminar was over? The student offering MC the $$ just to get out of being on his bad side, not taking the seminar but paying for it. MC took the $$...


I've been noticing a trend where if you don't agree with your Sifu or he doesn't teach you what you want when you want you go somewhere else. Whatever happened to trusting your Sifu to train you as he feels neccessary in his PROFESSIONAL experience. Do you all of a sudden know better than your Sifu?

No. Now I train with a Tai Chi Master and I don't know better than him but I know he is giving me the "essence" of the art (I guess I should say giving, I'm definately paying for it) so my Tai Chi will not be an "empty" form. I know he is giving me all I can handle and not holding back, not being secret. Has Master Chan (or others in Wah Lum) taught you how to manage your qi, how to work with it, direct it, train it? Are you taught where your qi comes from? How to stay healthy, not get sick? Why do students have to sneak around behind his back to take a Chinese Medical Seminar? If you take up Iron Palm will he give you the formula for the jao or do you need to keep coming to him for it?

Cheers

[woliveri]

What's wrong with that?Is it wrong to hold secrets?Don't forget that was the way it was done and will always be done.Not only in my style but many others.

NM, what's the difference between a indoor student and an outdoor student (inside/outside)? An indoor student gets taught the essence of the art, the entire tomale, everything. As far as I know there is only one indoor student in WL which is Mimi.

Some teachers don't play this game and these are the types of teachers I seek out.

I for one do not want to pay $$$ to be an outdoor student. If you want to do it that's fine with me, no problem.


Cheers!

[SaMantis]

How does:

Wing Chung (Mok Poi On),
Choy Lee Fut (Lee Koon Hung),
7-Star (Brenden Lai) (actually his information was useful because he taught us a training method not a form),
Plum Flower Mantis (Zheng Bing Dao),
Chen Tai Chi (Li En Jiao),
Shao Lin Wu Shu (Shao Lin Monks),

integrate into your Wah Lum Training? Look at the pattern.

--------------

18elders, there's a whole other thread in this forum where those connections are discussed already.

I looked at your profile, you've studied many other styles in 10 years. Have you ever tried sticking with just one?

---------

Why would MC get so ****ed at a pro student for not wanting to take a seminar and then take the $$ from the student after the seminar was over? The student offering MC the $$ just to get out of being on his bad side, not taking the seminar but paying for it. MC took the $$...

--------

You're either talking about yourself at this point, or talking out of your ass. You don't want to take a seminar from Master Chan, don't take a seminar. I've never had a problem with sifu about this, and I don't know anyone else who has, either.

If this wasn't you, then please remember that there are 2 sides to every story. And you heard just one.

You're extremely bitter about something. Go to a shrink and work it out. Or go practice KF and forget about Wah Lum. Whatever perceived slight happened to you at the temple, can't be fixed on this forum.

Sam

[18elders]

How does:

Wing Chung (Mok Poi On),
Choy Lee Fut (Lee Koon Hung),
7-Star (Brenden Lai) (actually his information was useful because he taught us a training method not a form),
Plum Flower Mantis (Zheng Bing Dao),
Chen Tai Chi (Li En Jiao),
Shao Lin Wu Shu (Shao Lin Monks),

integrate into your Wah Lum Training? Look at the pattern



I didn't write that, don't know why your attacking me?

As for sticking with a style, let me explain, our Grandmaster is documented as having the complete systems of 7 star, tai chi, plum flower and secret door praying mantis passed on to him.
Thus these 4 styles our taught in our system so i am sticking with one it just contains those 4 mantis systems in it.

Have a happy new year.

[NorthernMantis]

Funny you they don't teach chen style at wah lum:D
Well someone know's it but he doesn't teach.I will let his name remain anonymous since he knows nothing of this conversation and for respect for him.


An indoor student gets taught the essence of the art, the entire tomale, everything. As far as I know there is only one indoor student in WL which is Mimi.

What is your point?Sounds like someone's jealous.My sifu is the wife of a tai chi master and she teaches me well also what's your point?I'm not an idoor student and so what?

How many times do I have to point it out.Sifu Mimi is si gung's daughter his own flesh and blood doesn't that mean anything to you?Of of course she's an indoor student.

Always with sifu Mimi.I'm starting to wonder if you think that she's the cause of the "problem" you seem to see.I'm guessing three things:

1)You like her
2)You're jealous
3)You want to be in her place

Why so much anger towards her?Yes I admit it I took a stab at ya butlike Pong Lai said this a discussion about wah lum (sarcasm) You read that Pong Lai?

There's a lot to learn in wah lum wether your an indoor student or not.You forget the grandmaster does whatever he wants with his style,not how you want it to be.If you feel it's wrong to be held back on certaing things well then tough luck.Like I said be fore:

It will be preserved better that way.Some dude took wah lum and combined it with muay thai and you think si gung will pass the entire knowledge to just anyone?
Recently I was talking to a friend of min's who knows a couple of sifu's who don't want to teach Americans or Americanised Asians because they are disrespectful


"I've been noticing a trend where if you don't agree with your Sifu or he doesn't teach you what you want when you want you go somewhere else. "

That's also another way how some teachers knew a student was for real and not fooling around.You left because you didn't like the whole indoor/outdoor thing.What makes you think people haven't learned what they are supposed to learn.do you think you will be taught then for leaving?


I for one do not want to pay $$$ to be an outdoor student. If you want to do it that's fine with me, no problem.

What makes you think because you have $$$ you can walk in and demand to be taught whatever you want?You think kung fu can be bought?the sifu tells the studen't what to do not the other way around and don't bring money into because I did not mean that.Kung fu is a Chinese heritage and defended their people.

You should be greatful that you were taught something that few people have a chance to.

I bet you would leave your sifu if things didn't go your way.That show's that you have no loyalty for your sifu.

[SaMantis]

18 elders, i'm sorry -- I was scanning through and read the name wrong. Sorry about that!

So ... same comments, (particularly the seminar comments) directed to woliveri!

Peace,
Sam

[SaMantis]

Northern Mantis,

Demo team and sifu Tu say hi! :)

[NorthernMantis]

Yay!:D

[woliveri]

NorthernMantis:

How is this:

As far as I know there is only one indoor student in WL which is Mimi.
An attack against Mimi. It's just a statement and you're reading too much into it and going off half ****ed. Control your emotions.


I bet you would leave your sifu if things didn't go your way.That show's that you have no loyalty for your sifu.
Not so Bat Boy :-)


Funny you they don't teach chen style at wah lum Sorry, the list above was with seminars... Didn't I say that?

SaMantis:

Why would MC get so ****ed at a pro student for not wanting to take a seminar and then take the $$ from the student after the seminar was over? The student offering MC the $$ just to get out of being on his bad side, not taking the seminar but paying for it. MC took the $$... Your right, that's gossip from the source and I retract it.

Cheers!

[flem]

chrisreed

i don't know what WL school you were at but it sounds like whatever it is you do now is the same as WL- atleast as far as what i learned there. i don't know your level of experience but i'll tell you that in order to learn to fight you have to fight. 2 person apps, 2 person forms, and sparring are all tools to prepare you but they are not the real thing. also, training sparring or whatever done only within your school will limit you to that schools preferences--- in other words "chop suey" can be a good thing!
besides what i previously stated the only thing lacking in WL is full-contact sparring- which of course is a legal issue-
i suggest you ask your sifu about adding it to your program, or implementing it on your own, perhaps with older KF brothers(to maintain some control)AND as with most people on this forum learn to appreciate the other benefits in kung fu

[chrisreed]

hua,


i can only speak from my experience and it was like that.




flem,

my school does have it now. i meant no conotation with chop suey. just what it denoted you are reading too much into that.

[NorthernMantis]

An attack against Mimi. It's just a statement and you're reading too much into it and going off half ****ed. Control your emotions.

They are.I'm just tired of people throwing insults and cloaking behind innocence like Pong Lai.Whenever someone mentions something about wah lum you jump in attacking and then lauging at people becuase they get mad.




Not so Bat Boy :-) :D :confused: :D I have no idea what you mean by that but I found it funny.I might add it inot my avatar.If I can find a good one

[woliveri]

Not so bat boy.... well, I meant nothing by it. Could of said Bat Man, Mister Man, Cool Breeze, whatever. How about NorthernMantis? Better?

inot my avatar

Likewise, I'm not understanding that but that's ok no need to explain.

Whenever someone mentions something about wah lum you jump in attacking and then lauging at people becuase they get mad.

I think I've been pretty objective and fair with my comments outside of the ones I've retracted (two to date). I've made positive comments and criticisms about the system from personal experience from WL and comparison to after WL. If I wanted to "bash" WL you wouldn't see any positive comments from me at all.

Bottom line is I'm saying your not getting the essence of the system (as it stood from when I was in the system) and you all agreed and said that's ok, that's reserved for those who inherit the system. We have no problem with it. So that's it. I mean, that's great. If your happy, I'm happy.

Peace!!

Cheers!!

Happy New Year.

[flem]

woliveri

isn't the essence of any system the basics? as i i stated before, i have no reason to defend WL but from what i could tell while i was involved there, one can learn practically any physical skill short of flying.

northern mantis/pong lai

can't you two drive to a challenge?

[woliveri]

Actually WL has very good basics. They have helped me a lot in my later training. Basics are the foundation of the system. Many students can't see that and just want more and more forms.

Ok, at the expense of being called a basher again, I'm saying that there's a difference between buying, cooking, and eating fish thus being dependant on whoever you get your fish from and knowing the source of the Fish (i.e. Fishing). What is the saying? Bring me a fish and I'll eat for a day. Teach me to fish and I'll eat for a lifetime. I'm saying, for me, I have a different kind of relationship/respect for the latter than the former. For me there can be a lifelong bond for the latter that will never be achieved with the former. Trust will never truely be established in the former, again for me.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey no harm done.Happy New Year to you too :)

[NorthernMantis]

Oops I meant to say that I might add it in my avatar.

[SaMantis]

-----

"Basics are the foundation of the system. Many students can't see that and just want more and more forms. "

-----

woliveri, i agree with you. can't go wrong with good basics. And it's true, there are students who only want to learn the next form as fast as possible.

I'd like to learn as fast as possible -- but it seems like I'm slower than anyone else! :( well, I don't mind practicing basics.

18elders, thanks for explaining how all the styles fit into your system. I didn't understand that at first. sounds like your sifu has been able to meld several good styles into a more effective system. :)

Happy new year, everyone!

Sam

[flem]

wolivari

so you were unhappy with "politics" but not WL the kung fu style?




samantis

i don't know if you should be backpatting 18elders it seems he's against mixing styles and he has more interest in yours than his own!

[Joe Mantis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did Northern Mantis propose a challenge to Pong Lai? A challenge to fight?

I hope not.

[woliveri]

flem, I'm not going to touch that one. I think I've pretty much said it as best I can.

SaMantis, yeah, I used to love basics. I'm a basics freak. I used to take apart forms and practice them as basics. We also used to come in the morning and practice just basics. Don't know if you still do that. If you want to be good in your kung fu form you must practice basics. Basics, basics, basics.

A friend of my wife's family from Vietnam trained for 3 years or so in Monkey Kung Fu? He told me for the first two years, everyday except Sunday he'd come to his Master's house and his daily practice would be to stand in a horse stance for 2 hours with some hand movements (kinda like scraping under the arm in WL) on each side with a short break in between the two hours. I'm not talking about a horse stance like some of the kids do (standing straight up). I'm talking about a deep horse stance.

He did this the first two years before learning any form. Try that over here and see how many students last.
:) :) :D :D :D

[Joe Mantis]

FLEM

interesting that you say WL is Chop Suey.

I recall that a certian WL sifu who is still strong in the system
tell me that I needed to join a style that is pure.
It wasn't until later that I realized WL was chop suey.
______________________

to all

It doesn't bother me what WL does. I just don't appreciate the deception that and concealment which the members of this style participate in. I would have preferred that they would be up front with me in the beginning.


If a style wants to only teach forms....fine! Just be upfront about it.
It a teacher doesn't know or doesn't want to teach applications, fine just say so up front.


NORTHERN MANTIS

i HOPE YOU didn't challenge Pong Lai, and if you did I recommend you take it back. I believe that you may be in over your head with this one.

_____

[Joe Mantis]

If the fight takes place...
I got $100 on Pong Lai

[flem]

samantis

do you know northern mantis ? what makes you think he needs to worry? by the way pong lai gave the invite- atleast thats my impression

[SaMantis]

well, i'm pretty sure i've met northern mantis, but it was just an introduction -- at the october anniversary, I think. Sifu Tu knows him -- when I talked to him Saturday he described NM from head to toe!

I think Pong Lai was the first to invite NM to a challenge ... I need to follow the thread back to confirm it one way or the other. In any case the challenge would have to go through the temple in Orlando.

flem, I'm not backpatting 18elders OR calling him on anything ... just thanking him for the explanation. People can judge one way or the other. But it is strange that WL is wrong for being influenced/having elements of other styles and other schools are right. ;)

Sam

[SaMantis]

BTW, that's Joe Mantis who's got money on Pong Lai.

If it actually came to a challenge, I'd stand with Northern Mantis, win or lose.

Sam

[mantis7]

Hey just to remin you all mantis is a 18 system based style I was chop Suey from the get go. So adding a little more seasoning to the dish may or may not be a bad thing.

THIS IS NOT A FLAME OR TROLLING JUST SOME BASIC FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Now as far as Mr Chan goes I have seen im in person peform and IMO he has skill especially in his advance years.

As far as not learing applications along side of learing a kuen thats news to me. I have aways been taught the applications of any manuver right off the back.

Now you can look at this in severa ways.

A> It is a test to see if you are willing tostay around and dedicate yourself to the school and your sifu.


B> It could bea money making schem to strech out your time training so as to keep income coming in.

C> It could be a mental test to se if you are capabale to figure it out your self

D> or he got you by the short and culies and just giving you forms and stuff to do and you pay him. He's happy your happy for a time period ad then you leave. you learned a coplue of forms and paid foe them and he has your money but you still haven learned the true ESSENCE of the art.

I have a question the Wah Lum forms are they created by Mr Chan or where they passed on to him.

I do seven star mantis and we can trace or forms history through the various factions. yes there are politics amongst us but we all pretty much do the same forms. The main argument is how many are needed. Some saw 40 will others sa they teach all the mantis kuens they Know ( My Clan ).. Now this is just a matter of symantics. Bt you can tell in our forms ( no matter what lineage it is ) are mantis forms becaue each form contains the ESSENCE of the system. ( either one two or several key ESSENCES)

As I have never seen anyone perform Wah Lum tam tui tong long pai ( I hope I got that right ) tht hasnt been traied by Mr Chan or belongs to his assocition.

Also i it Wha lum tam tui tong long pai or is it JUT SOW I ask somene who supposedly belongs to the WAH LUM ASSOCIATION and he was adament about it being jut sow????? Any answers on that one.

But I feel if you do not learn the essences f a ystem from thebegining what good i learing a bunch of foems. Unless you have several years of traiing i another style or a tyle simiar to the new system of practice maybe and I mean MAYBE you can figure it out but hey thats only MY OPINION.

Well I have babble on long enuff.. ( watch someone take what I have written out of context.

Victor

[18elders]

i wouldn't think it is chop suey, they are all mantis systems and he knows the complete systems.
to me chop suey would be a lttle hung gar, a little choy lay fut, a litte wing chung, a little eagle claw, tiger claw ,shaolin etc.

If Sa mantis wants to patt me on the back let her, my back is a bit sore, it may help!!



as to the challenge:
i thought northern mantis said we can fight, come down and see?

Anyway why would it have to go through the temple?

[isol8d]

Fighting on the internet is like sport tae kwon do. No matter how hard you try, you still look stupid.

May your best day in 2001 be your worst of 2002.

[NorthernMantis]

:D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, Pong Lai read flem's comment about learning fighting techiques from Master Chan as a challenge. NorthernMantis let his hot Colombian blood get the best of him and said come on over and fight. Hey, I was just as hotheaded when I was his age. He has since retracted his personal invitation to fight in favor of my statement that the Wah Lum Temple will handle any challenges to the system. Don't say we can't fight unless you're prepared to come down and find out. My previous posts were personal opinions. Now I speak for Wah Lum and the Temple. You say Wah Lum stinks then tell it to Master Chan and the Wah Lum Sifu's personally.

isol8d
I love that quote about fighting on the Internet! Take it from a poster from the old BBS days it's real easy to get caught up in that kind of stuff. For some reason all manners and social ettiquette go out the windows when people get online.

[NorthernMantis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did Northern Mantis propose a challenge to Pong Lai? A challenge to fight?

Nope I didn't, he stated that challenge not me.Wolivery said he would pay for the trip and I said good send him to Orlando not Miami. Like Hua Lin said all challenges will be held and taken care of by the hq.Let him take it there cause I know there are people there who can fight.


NORTHERN MANTIS

I HOPE YOU didn't challenge Pong Lai, and if you did I recommend you take it back. I believe that you may be in over your head with this one.


Dude, I know better than that:D He's been in kung fu probably when I was playing with my ninja turtles.I've only been in kung fu in general for 4 1/2 years.Even if I would have gone against him I'm not afraid of losing like some people. I met a wing chun sifu a while back that put my skills to shame but that didn't stop me in fact it made me practice more and the same sifu gave me advice,no harm done.

I'm just a 19 124lbs beginer.If if there would be a challenge it would be in the future not now. I'm not ready. There I said it I admit that he's better than me but I don't let my ego get in the way.



If the fight takes place... I got $100 on Pong Lai

I got $100 on pong Lai too :p I"m not backing out though, I just know when I'm outclassed and that my friends is another part of kung fu being smart and avoid the situation. It's not an ego thing for me.


BTW, that's Joe Mantis who's got money on Pong Lai.
If it actually came to a challenge, I'd stand with Northern Mantis, win or lose.

Sam

Thanks for standing by me bro.




as to the challenge:
i thought northern mantis said we can fight, come down and see?

Anyway why would it have to go through the temple?

I meant that he take it there and fight them not me.

Get it straight people it's not a challenge between Pong Lai and me.I know he is better than me.I meant that if he wants to fight then take it there and take on someone who I know who is capable of applying techniques.He said we can't fight so I told him to come down and see it for himslef.Noticed the word we not I.


SaMantis-

I think Pong Lai was the first to invite NM to a challenge ... I need to follow the thread back to confirm it one way or the other. In any case the challenge would have to go through the temple in Orlando..

flem-

samantis

do you know northern mantis? what makes you think he needs to worry? by the way pong lai gave the invite- atleast thats my impression
I believe it says it all.;)

One more thing a little something for all of you who think I was challenging Pong Lai

I am not afraid of getting beaten nor am I afraid of pain.
I love sparring people who are bigger and better than me.I learn by losing.If I were to go against Pong Lai win or lose I'll still win either way.

I'm not afraid of Pong Lai and I certainly don't care how good he is or what style he is taking.I'm not afraid to admit that he is better than me granted that he has been studying kung fu for a longer period of time nad has more experience.Like I said before this isn't an ego trip for me.

I've seen personally what works and what doesn't on the street and that's why I chose wah lum.While living in Colombia I've seen things and been in situations that most of you will not probably see in your lives and not want to be.

Yes Pong Lai you are better than me, but no we can fight.Why don't go and try out my si hings if you'd like.By the way I wonder if his sifu knows about how he is acting.Maybe in the future I might take up on afriendly challenge.Notice I said friendly.

[NorthernMantis]

Hua lin pretty much summed it up in a shorter post.

lol at the Colombian statement.Happy New years everyone.

[woliveri]

NorthernMantis:

Wolivery said he would pay for the trip and I said good send him to Orlando not Miami.

Please check the posts, I said no such thing. :D :D :D

Also, it's Woliveri not Wolivery.

Thanks

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by 18elders
What does Shelly's husband think about it?
There are northern forms and southern forms,
leopard is southern, little and big buddha palm southern,18 elbows southern, 36 hands, master stick, lo gar spear, tiger fork , butterfly knives.
As far as your friend saying it doesn't look like choy lay fut, that is interesting because Master Chan told a sifu that it is influenced by CLF.
Anyone know any northern styles that have woo dip ma stance in it?

If you don't have the money for the ticket, i will pay for it for you.



Well said woliveri

I stand corrected it was 18elders who said he will pay.My apologies woliveri

[flem]

18elders


as someone said earlier' all praying mantis can be considered chop suey as they were developed using various shaolin methods with the addition of the insects movements - to me though, a non-chop suey method or style sets itself apart by it's cohesiveness. that is all of the various methods in it work together. the easiest way to understand what i mean is the way many WL forms/techniques overlap- occassionally causing the practioner to go into another form, since the goal of any martial art is to make the practioner respond automatically- obviuoslly WL is a complete system. but not only that, have you ever noticed the preceding/follow up techniques to moves that are repeated in the system? they allow many responses to "possible" counters- i emphasize possible because of your concern over 2 person sets (their absence in WL) to me 2 person sets condition the practioner to deal with a set response from your opponent. an example of the variation of technique in WL that i spoke of earlier is the jump- crescent kick. in first form the follow technique is the kum choy punch- because a possible counter to your jump is for the opponent to move in and under the kick- in say lok the opponent moves away- in several forms they are in hand range and so the hand is swept up as you step in and punch- in the beginning of second form the opponent is taken down by grabbing their head- anyway you get the point
in any case this applies throughout the system AND it carries over to the weapons as well, so to me i don't give a rats ass whether lle kwan shan visited master chan in his dreams or if he copied them from video games the fact is the kung fu is awesome- and believe me i am the LAST one who should be saying so!

[woliveri]

flem, your initials wouldn't be tf would they? ;)

[flem]

woliveri

nope- he screwed himself-
in my case it was different

[Pong Lai]

CHOP SUEY?

I do not agree with either definitions of Chop Suey. Another way to define an explanation could be, a form and/or application which does not contain “Chuan Li”. Chuan meaning “fists” and “li” meaning theory. Some call it “methodology” of the applications / techniques. Chop Suey, basically are movements placed together (be it forms or applications) whereas the attacks, defends, and counters do not calculate and or plagued by multiple loopholes. You more often find this when persons attempt to piece together an exhibition form without knowing the applications of the individual techniques and how one must counter and flow into the other.


General Comments:
Just about every thread on this forum is in the form of a question. Some about techniques, training methods, and many about lineage and history of a particular individual or style.

You may perceive the questions raised, as ones need for clarification, better understanding, curiosity, bashing, etc. If you are completely confident in your MA and in your present learning state, you will respond with knowledge, loyalty, persistence, an open mind, and stick by what you say, as most participants have. You will find that those whom have conducted and continue to research all aspects of MA, tend to pose curious questions of MA history and technique. Those whom have done little or no research, tend to only possess the tools of defending by attacking. Not so wise if you do not first conduct some thorough research. Most of these individuals only form of research have been “here say”. Perhaps just by one source??

For instance: The Thread on “Questions for Wah Lum People” posted by 18 Elders.
It seems that many whom participated understood and replied to 18 Elders need to filter through his own found discrepancies and seek documented answers researched by others. Apparently they were questions that he was not able to have answered through the provided literature or instructors he came in to contact with while studying with WL. Fine. I certainly do not have the answers. Only when those individuals had no knowledge to contribute or felt threatened did they result to methods, unable to otherwise back (whitewhirlwhind pg. 4), and insinuating that 18 Elders was only attempting to mis-credit, Wah Lum’s Master Chan. Interesting that this individual has failed to further participate in any other Thread(s) regarding intelligent questions of techniques or history.


It also seems that a few participants are hoping and seeking to find “David Carridine” answers on MA. The “Grasshoper” mentality / approach of how MA schools are conducted in China (history) are quite exaggerated. Keep an open mind.There are quite a few participants (Chinese and Western) here that could provide you insight that is more than a 3 week China trip or summer camp. Did you know that there are just as many MA frauds (Means they state they know something they don’t or are a disciple of someone they are not), in Asia as in the West, maybe more. I am making a general statement here. Again “Why Hang Xen Kan Reh Now, Nay Hang Xen Kan Mun Dow!”

I too trained with the Wah Lum system under one of its highly regarded practitioners and Instructors of the time. I till this day have credited Wah Lum for introducing the world of MA to me, inspiring, and through my Instructor, teaching me what hard work, dedication, and basics were all about. I was with Wah Lum for four years before traveling to Taiwan to study with my Kung Fu brother, Tainan Mantis under Shr Zheng Zhong.
ShrGung Chan has visited my home in Taiwan, treated him and his students to tea and dinner. I also originally traveled with ShrGung to China as many of you, and many more times on my own.
.
My teacher SHr Zheng Zhong’s MA skill is highly regarded & respected in Asia, not just Taiwan. Shr SHrfu is not liked personally by some. Why? Shr Shrfu is more outspoken than I may ever be. This is not arrogance, but sheer confidence in one’s own ability and MA knowledge. Often disliked by those whom feel threatened and intimidated. Shr Shrfu does not hesitate to expose fraud in Instructors, whom claim what they truly are not. Allowing so only will further demise Chinese Martial Arts reputation!
It would seem to me that a genuine MA would want to become best of friends with another of similar or greater ability. I do. I know my teacher till this day still will seek out any practitioner whom he has heard has good kung fu in order to try to pick up something he has possibly missed or overlooked in the past. You may take a look at Shr Shrfu and many other well known teachers documented profiles on Mantis 108’s,TaiJiPrayingMantis’ web-site.

Shr Shrfu has never left Taiwan to live in a foreign country, thus leave his many teachers side. Rather has remained with them to learn all that was possible right down to many of their death beds!

Would Shr Shrfu be ashamed of me? I am more than certain he has placed his bet on me.

[Olethros]

to 18elders

"olethros
Thanks for proving my point.
There is application for it beside just a stretch, there are also mantis hand moves to it but you didn't learn that."

We were talking about elbow to toe.
I was making a joke, hence the

:)

after the message. I'm sorry if my intention in that statement was misunderstood.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Pong Lai
“Why Hang Xen Kan Reh Now, Nay Hang Xen Kan Mun Dow!”
Wo bu dong. I think your pinyin might be off. I can almost get it. Wai hang shen kan reh(?) nao, Nai hang shen kan men dao! ???

Ta han yi shenme? What does it mean?

18Elders
I haven't taken the time to look for applications in the exercises, there's more than enough material in the forms. It would be interesting to hear some although I'd hate to be in an elbow-to-toe position in a fight. :D Are you talking about a low block like in Little Mantis (after the sweep elbow)?

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

i'm betting that the elbow to toe thing is a secret!

i was not sure which thread you were refering to about catching a jab or the hook i aked you guys to try, instead of answering both i'll wait

[flem]

18elders

i started this mess and was never , well i guess i forgot where i wanted to go with my original statement. i find it difficult to believe that you didn't learn applications since i did. i assumed everyone who put in the time were shown. anyway, though you didn't say it directly, i am under the impression that you think the info is held back, or that it doesn't exist at all. my experience in learning, teaching, and really just looking is that 1 alot of screwed up people get involved in the martial arts 2 most people either already think they want to "know it all" or if they are around enough develop the desire or 3 most don't possess the ability, morality, or the mindset needed to be given it all. you know this, you said you taught, look at the candidates you had - i personally would take a very long time in choosing a"chosen one" and still iwould feel inclined to leave the legacy to my children - but even in doing that i may still teach others the "inner secrets" provided their are any. please tell me did you never learn applications, not enough, or what.

[18elders]

applications:
nope, didn't really learn too much, trained with 2 sifus in wahlum, one was a professional student and he said he didn't learn the apps. either. I would ask about a move and he didn't know the answer.
Most of what little we did was knowledge they learned from other styles.
They couldn't give me move for move for wahlum forms.
I mean there are moves you can see the apps from easily and then there are more advanced moves for the applications.
I think it is very important to learn the apps, counters and drill the heck out of them, how else can you learn to fight with your style?
Who was your sifu?
If you don't want to answer that then what years did you train.
Did you train at the temple?
I know 5 other sifu's in the system that i keep in contact with and none of them learned either.
Fine if you don't want to show a student, but if you feel he is not worthy then why let them become a sifu?
How will the system be passed on?
My original question was a topic myself and my wahlum kung fu brothers have spoken about. Nobody knew so i asked.
The system isn't that old so documentation of dates should be easily found.
Did you learn all the apps from wah lum or are you applying knowledge you now have to go over your wahlum forms?

Yes there is an app for elbow to toe, is it a secret? Not sure if it is a secret but Master shr used it on me to show me that even your warm up exercises are done for more than just a stretch.
l

[flem]

18elders

i agree that alot of the apps are obvious and perhaps that is apossible reason that they haven't been taught.i began training in WL around 1987 and continued for about 11 years though i am really bad with dates. i agree also with a lack of concern over who becomes a sifu, but not for app knowledge, but of character, and attitudes that are inconsistant with not only the WL alter, but as MA and human beings in general. the one nearest to you is a pefect example! but as i stated in another post i believe the problem is the chinese concern with quantity as opposed with quality. i learned apps for several forms at a time when i was training alone early one morning when master chan arrived. i guess it was a fluke by what you say, but it opened my eyes to possiblities- i guess as you say about the less understood techniques. but besides what he showed me, of course i look at other styles, but the real meaning to me is exploring the forms and techniques, i like it when someone says hey, couldn't this technique do this? and training to find it's strengths and weaknesses in application. in defense everything really just breaks down to wax on-wax off, and in attack it is either straight or circular, so it's just a matter of when and why.

[spiralstair]

All movement has a potential martial application if applied with fighting intent. The identical movements used to change and fasten a baby's diaper can also have a capture, lock, and roll application. All you need to produce the difference is an opponent, a mind, and a desire to create pain. The movement then adapts to the situation and 'corrects' itself when applied.Elbow to toe likewise. You don't need a Grandmaster to show you how to change diapers though, do you?
The applications in WL are limited only by the focussing force of the practioner's mind.
It is human nature to find fault in other's abilities(to teach, to discern, to give, to lead) rather than taking that emotional energy and bringing to bear on the task at hand, whether it is deepening the knowledge communicated in kung fu forms by researching applications, or deepening your self knowledge by investigating the age old concepts of loyalty, respect, and kindness.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hey flem, care to e-mail me? I'll keep your secret if you wish.

[NorthernMantis]

I tottaly agree with spiral.What amazing martial insight he has.Truly a great master in the making:D

[NorthernMantis]

How in the world do you pronounce Shr Zheng Zhong?It's so hard to pronounce.

[SaMantis]

Hi everyone,

flem and spiralstair both make good points about KF training and the type of people who come to train. Very true.

Wah Lum does teach applications in its forms. I've noticed that as I progress, each new form illustrates a different application for a move I learned earlier, which gives the same move new potential.

I think it was 18elders who said that in his style, his sifu shows at least 5 applications to every move. That intrigued me. So, I'm going over the forms I've learned and am challenging myself to find at least 5 applications to each move/sequence. Might take awhile since my training partner is gone for a month, though! :(

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

why?

[18elders]

Northern mantis,
the zh in chinese is the same sound as j in english
The sh is the same so shr would sound like sir but with sh like (should) with an er sound
Shr jen jong.

Flem,
i probably know you if you were in the system that long.
I understand what you guys say about yes you can think of techniques and that's great, what i found out is that there are way more advanced applications from the techniques that are not obvious!
We all know the forms were done with hidden techniques so someone couldn't just watch you and learn your techniques. The masters were smarter than that.
The second thing is the counter to your technique. If you just come up with an application on your own and someone who has good knowledge, then you don't know what you have left yourself open for.
Master Shr would correct every little aspect of my move, explain why my arm shouldn't have been like that and then show me what was left open for his attack.
This is what i feel you need a master to show you. Yes me and my kung fu brothers in wahlum have come up with stuff but it hasn't been tested for hundreds of years.
If a master doesn't feel a student is worthy then they won't show the more advanced moves.
Like i said before, it is a 5 step process, sorry but i forgot the chinese terms for it,( i had a hard enough time with english, ha!) i will get it for you guys though.
It is also mind training, you won't be a good fighter if it's not in your head. That comes with the years of hard hitting , 2 person drills, knowledge of the applications and being able to counter, counter and counter.
Instead of me reinventing the wheel, i would rather use that knowledge and spend my time drilling the heck out of it.

[NorthernMantis]

18 elders

We are told the apllications for the forms.Just ask me about a form that I know.

[18elders]

I know the basic apps.

i bet i have different theory on little mantis:

first run of little mantis.

4th exercise

[woliveri]

18elders wrote:
Flem, i probably know you if you were in the system that long.

Me too. I think you gotta know me flem. Let me take a stab at it. flem, were you a physics major?

[woliveri]

here's a couple of fun pictures from Wah Lum


http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/lienjao2small.jpg

http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/lienjao1small.jpg

[flem]

18elders

i don't want to sound like master po, but we are the wheel.
the way i see it , and i do agree with the advanced understanding of forms, that if we simple rely on the invincible past master stories, then the art stagnates. i do not mean any offense, but if your shrfu didn't always correct you then he wouldn't be needed. i never implied that coming up with apps was without trial. obviously all technique has a counter, what i did say was to experiment with it, find it's strengths/weaknesses, then find out when and how it works best. after that try it in similated fighting, regular sparring, and full contact.

[flem]

woliveri
no physics, nice that you have me confused with such a skilled "performer".

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem
You started 3 years before me and left about '98? I just like keeping in contact with Kung Fu brothers. No problem if you don't want to talk.

woliveri
Cool pics. I don't know everyone in the pictures so which one is you? Were you training at the Temple after 1990? Were you with Kenny out there in CA? Most of those people are long gone. For some reason I thought you were gone before I started.

[Tainan Mantis]

There in th pic at Wah Lum I see my Sifu Arthur and my room mates Darryl and Yegor.

We lived across the street from the school in Sifu's house when he moved into the school itself.

One day while Sifu was away we made a rule that no one in our house could walk unless it was in kung fu stances. We managed to enforce that rule for as long as we lived there.
Sifu was the only person whom we couldn't force it on.

Sorry for the story, but that pic brings back memories.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin Laoshi:

In the photo by in the Tai Chi area (not outside) I'm the guy on the right kneeling trying to puff out his scrawny chest :) The Chinese guy directly behind me and next to Tom H was teaching gymnastics at the Temple at the time and also I got him to start a Chinese Language class (short lived). I think his name was Jason if I remember correctly.

After my first year I went to China with M. Chan and others:

http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/china.jpg

I came back broke and left O-Town for work. I was later in and out as funds provided. I was up to and 4th form, Lo Han, and D Broadswords before I left due to illness. That's when I met the Vietnamese gentleman at my work and I started learning from him.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
I remember you. The guy at the other end, John something??, used to kick the iron pole outside full power. I think that's him. I think he also practiced Right Hand Stick with a solid iron bar. Ahh, the good old hard core days. Richard Allen was the head instructor back then. Tabletop stances with the green iron bar on your legs.

[woliveri]

Yeah, I had fogotten when Richard was head instructor. What a riot. Richard could and would say anything in front of M. Chan. I think M. Chan thought he was crazy. He'd say, "yeah, go wave some cash under sifu's nose and he'll teach you anything". I'm laughing now as I write this. What a nut, but fun.

[flem]

18elders

i am fairly certain that little mantis is a 2 man set- don't know it though, explain your application for 4th exercise- i believe that the rolling of the wrists breaks chin na and that the punch is applied under the opponent's chin with a simultaneous throw

if you have time tell me the applications for those funky lady horse techniques like tong long opens vest at the end of 1st form, or the double chops at he end of 16 hands also in lady horse.

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

i'm considering the repercussions

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
Yeah, I could tell a few RA stories but they aren't fit for public, mixed company forums. :) Is that John Quinen in the back of the China trip pic?

flem
Since you're out of WL you're safe. I'm the one out on a limb. Anyhow, it's no big deal. We can talk here.

What makes you think Little Mantis is a 2-man set? The repeating runs? That seems to me to be a possible indication that it's a 2-man, like Right Hand Stick and 7 Kicks.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin Laoshi

No, that guys name is Paul if I remember correctly. I think John had left the school before we went on this trip.

[woliveri]

You see this thing with flem is what I'm talking about. Even though he's out of the school he has to be careful what he says or revealing his identity. ;)

[Pong Lai]

Most mantis sets do not have the "Ling Chuan" or two person revelaed within the form. Such as some styles like Tien Shan Pie's "Chu Ji Chuan" and others. Would be great if the first and second halves all could be pieced together like puzzles with just a few transition (changing sides, etc) that would need to be taught.

Both Tainan Mantis and I had to perform all the kung fu we knew for Shr Zheng Zhong when we started for him. He took a liking to 7 kicks, renamed it "little continiuos kicks" (after a much longer kicking form called "Big Continuos Kicks") and pieced together a neat two person set.

By the way, are there any Tien Shan Pie students on line?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
Maybe there's more to it than that. He could be family. That would be different. If not then he's only silencing himself. He hasn't said anything negative about Wah Lum or anyone here (Temple) so he must have other personal reasons. Nothing like what your talking about. Besides, worded correctly there should be no problem with stating your beliefs or experiences. It's the insults and bashing that causes problems. Also, don't assume that your experiences apply to others. Either way if you tell the truth you should be fine.

Pong Lai
7 Kicks is great just as an exercise! Do it 5 -7 times straight and feel the burn. You know that after the front sweep - kick you jump up into the crescent kick, not stand up. Everyone stands up, Master Chan jumps.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
Maybe there's more to it than that. He could be family. That would be different. If not then he's only silencing himself. He hasn't said anything negative about Wah Lum or anyone here (Temple) so he must have other personal reasons. Nothing like what your talking about. Besides, worded correctly there should be no problem with stating your beliefs or experiences. It's the insults and bashing that causes problems. Also, don't assume that your experiences apply to others. Either way if you tell the truth you should be fine.

Pong Lai
7 Kicks is great just as an exercise! Do it 5 -7 times straight and feel the burn. You know that after the front sweep - kick you jump up into the crescent kick, not stand up. Everyone stands up, Master Chan jumps. But then nobody can ever do what he does anyhow.

Oops, don't know how that happened.

I was just thinking, having basically the same moves on the run back gives me the feeling a form could be a 2-man set but only showing one side. IOW, the first run is the attacker and the second run is the defender returning the attack. You don't turn around and head back. I would do the 1st run with you defending, you do the 2nd run with me defending. What's missing is the defend side. Could this be another repeating run form. Two forms that are really one? How about the 1st half being the attack and the 2nd half the defend. Both in one long form! ****, you got me thinking and now I have to go through all the forms I know looking for these patterns. See you in a few months (years?)! :D

[woliveri]

Your right Hua Lin of course but he does have to consider "repercussions" to converse with you via e-mail. It's entirely up to him and I don't fault him at all for thinking about it. I think you understand my point and I'll drop it here.

[flem]

if you can snatch the virtual pebble from my hand i will tell you, ha ha.

hua lin laoshi

yes, that is the reason i think it is a 2 person set. i may contact you, i am still undecided, i have been burned, but haven't we all, thanks for be cool with it either way.

pong lai

it is interesting that your style is influenced by wah lum! alot could be said about that!!! it's good of you to be so honest, with such humility maybe you are "the man".

woliveri

i know "what" you're talking about, yet i have never read your posts about it, if you ever have time i'd like to.

[18elders]

4th exercise:
rolling out of chin na.
my kung fu brother came up with the same idea, 2 handed crossed wrist grab, rolling out to break the hold.

problem with that is if you have someone grab you who knows what they are doing. If the grab is as your hands are in the exercise(wrists close), it may work. If someone does that double grab but pulls your arms apart(but crossed) so the cross is by your elbows, it won't fly.

Why do you think little mantis is a 2 person set? just because it repeats?


Flem, did you ever go to china?

[Tainan Mantis]

Pong Lai mentioned that our Shr fu liked 7 kicks.
One day in the morning I was practicing my Wah Lum forms(He had told me not to forgot those forms I learned in US) and did 7 Kicks.
He said he likes it," do it again."
He watched closely and grumbled his approval and said," one more time."
After the third time he says ,"Ok, watch me."
And he does the form, just like that.

That was the last I heard of it for 1 or 2 years. Then one day he teaches it. But on the second road you most do the opposite side of the body which is different from how I learned it in US.

At the end of class he says," In truth, this is Kevin's form that he learned at Wah Lum, but it is a nice one."

Then one or two years later we line up again and he teaches the two person.

I think this form was easy to make into a 2 person becuase he has the 12 roads of tam tui 2 man drills, and since Wah Lum has mucho tam tui, wah la!

For the record Little Mantis is a 2 man set. I believe its original name, TIEH MEN SUAN, comes from the DENG PU take down done on left and right near the beginning of the form. Because in this take down the 2 people are like the leaves of a traditional Chinese door while their arms are like the bolts to keep the door closed.
The performer tries to bolt the door closed(the first takedown)
The defender does a counter and attack.
The performer then tries to bolt the door closed on the other side(the second takedown)

[flem]

18elders

never could afford china, plus i always figured the good kung fu came here

i am not certain that understand the "open" arms that you said, i think you meant like the person makes you hug yourself, in any case i think turning the body prevents it and also draws the opponent in and down. if the right hand is free and the maintain control of the left the tech can be used to break or dislocate. by the way, there's a chance that the person you got that from is the same person i "experimented" with, never know. also, i have found the tech useful during an exchange of blows, such as the opponent gragging my 2nd punch in a 1-2 combination.

little mantis- yes because it repeats, and because it is more ground based the many of the others, and it's short and simple.

what about the ending techs in lady horse?

[18elders]

left hand pulling opponents arm, your right hand chop to throat, your right foot sweeping opponents foot as you step into lady horse. all techniques done at the same time.

[flem]

18elders

how about this- facing opponent in fighting stance(both right foot foreward), on their lead right the left hand parries as you step to their right(your left crossing over in lady horse)- the hands still form the X , the right palm attacks their kidney or floating rib. what about the punches at the end of 1st form?
also, i have had trouble with that sweep, i don,t have any power, must rely on timing their step.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18Elbows
"4th exercise:
rolling out of chin na.
my kung fu brother came up with the same idea, 2 handed crossed wrist grab, rolling out to break the hold."

You mean someone has a hold of you and your arms are crossed? How do you allow yourself to get into that position in the first place? :D I don't think it would work against a stronger opponent anyhow. Plus, like you said if your arms are crossed near the elbow it doesn't work. I was never fond of that technique anyhow. I don't like have both arms low (as in the block) at the same time. I believe some transition moves are simply to avoid entanglement. I haven't gone deep with 4th Exercise probably because I don't really like it.

Nice touch with the Lady Horse sweep. I do my Golden Chicken with a hooked foot sweep also. Picked that up from watching Dean.

flem
In your example I think the your right needs to step into Lady Horse, that would bring you to your opponents right. I'm only trying it mentally so I could be wrong.

Tainan Mantis
7 Kicks starts out with a grab and two kicks. On the return there is only one. Add the second kick and everything is reversed. Right hand and left hand form all in one.

[flem]

hua li laoshi

yes, thats right, stepping outside their punching arm, sorry it wasn't clear. by the way my intention with 4th exercise is to apply it before the arms reach the elbow. also, the technique is effective against a stronger opponent if you either use your elbow for leverage, or tightly coil the arms, like 2nd ex.- it rolls out like getting out of a single grab. BUT, i too don't like it low, in fact a better use, or atleast a more contemporary use is to apply it against an arm trap- where the opponent pushes one of your arms down on top of the other then attempts to punch over them- as in wing chun. the lower hand rolls in and up to meet the oncoming blow which is a good time for mantis hook- this hook can most times turn to chin na- as in the one at the end of 3rd form(before the tam tuis). of course that depends which hand they attack with.

what about tong long opens vest- the double punch in lady horse at the end of 1st form? i see it against two grags by two opponents, the step is to one's instep, the low cross brings them in and down, the twist breaks their grab- but it must be quick- by surprise, i also apply double elbow the same way.

[Pong Lai]

Flem, you beagn this thread. Perhaps you should open a new thread with a Name that would attract more particpants, "...Technique Thread"?? I think some individuals might read the first couple of pages and become discouraged in particpating.

By the way, 18 elders (old men) is old enough, difficult for him to read so many pages. Ha

[flem]

pong lai

i don't know what you're concerned about. if it is participation this thread isn't lacking. perhaps if they read the thread they will see and understand the brotherhood of the martial arts. i started this thread with a misunderstanding of 18elders intent, now we are sharing dialogue on martial technique.

[18elders]

close to the same app as the chop but a back fist.
how about breaking free from an attempted front bear hug before they get a good hold on you? Haven't tried it but we had thought of that before..

[18elders]

back off buddy, i have mastered the ancient art of denture throwing. I'll hit you in the temple and then beat you with my cane!!!

[18elders]

how about the 2 person app to double tow kick. land in wu dip ma , block punch in third form.
Both sides defend and attack moves in application?

[flem]

18elders

i don't understand. are you saying that the woo dip ma punch is used against the double kick?

i think the coolest technique in 3rd is the one preceding the double kick, i used in once fooling around one day when a kf brother walked between my legs as i was stretching on the ground. i trapped his legs and came up with the thrusting fingers.

if you are saying that the two moves counteract one another, i think there is alot of that in WL- either by accident or by design. the standing sweep as in little mantis is one. when the foot slides out in hil climb, besides taking the opponent completely out, it also prevents the opponent from using a standing sweep on you by causing their foot to "glance" off your leg. and i have used it successfully against someone who is trying to sweep the leg i am standing on in golden chicken as in the second half of the attack.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The double Gwa Choy's follow Dai Ma Chang Choy at the end of 1st Form. You move in and scoop the lead leg with your left and punch to the groin with your right. As you step up lock the left arm over the leg trapping it (locked over your shoulder) as you stand with the right fist positioned just under the leg (the downward fists position). Now retract the left (left Gwa Choy) and fling the leg up and over (right Gwa Choy). That's providing they didn't drop after the groin punch. I haven't tried this on anyone yet. Any volunteers Temple students? :-)

I haven't looked too deep into the double toe kicks section of 3rd Form. Holding the leg out after the jumping crescent makes me think of your opponent grabbing ahold of it. Dropping your weight and hooking with the left leg should cause your opponent to forget about the leg and step back out of the leg trap. Palms together as you jump up opens the arms giving a clear shot with the double toes. His guard and focus are high so you drop low in Wu Dip Ma and punch to the groin. As before, I haven't tried it on anyone yet.

[flem]

hua lin lao shi

i like that. i don't understand how you are holding- nevermind i just thought of it. the same thing will work with the left except the leg will be thrown away,awesome, thanks for opening my eyes. with the 3rd form kick you are right, the arms open the defense, the tech is nearly unstoppable, if the fingers score though, no need to kick, well, why not finish the job!

[SaMantis]

Hua Lin,


The double Gwa Choy's follow Dai Ma Chang Choy at the end of 1st Form. You move in and scoop the lead leg with your left and punch to the groin with your right. As you step up lock the left arm over the leg trapping it (locked over your shoulder) as you stand with the right fist positioned just under the leg (the downward fists position). Now retract the left (left Gwa Choy) and fling the leg up and over (right Gwa Choy). That's providing they didn't drop after the groin punch. I haven't tried this on anyone yet. Any volunteers Temple students? :-)

I've wanted to test that application for awhile; had to visualize the movement ever since I learned first form.

Can I try it on you first? :D

(Not being flirtatious -- it's just that the groin punch sounds wicked painful, I'd like to avoid it myself)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem
How about the left arm UNDER the leg, stand and throw off (left Gwa Choy) and strike the face (right Gwa Choy). Actually I think that is a better solution because in my original concept I was concerned with the leg being too close the my head/face while throwing off. That's why I need to try it on someone and work out the kinks.

[flem]

hua li laoshi

yeah thats what i thought you meant because after the hands roll thru it is on the outside(the leg i mean). i've used this technique- like this using it stand up style against a staight punch- it kind functions like a chain punch only with gwa choy.


how do you use di heen choy? i originally used it as a temple blow using the 1st knuckle, but fairly recently i realized it functions well as a "rabbit" punch- useful against bob and weavers. incidently, along the same line, i think one of the most awesome yet overlooked techniques is the one in lok low that follows the sigle finger/ clear straight punch/fan che in the beginning of the 1st run. it seems intended for someone attempting to take you down and attacks the back of their neck -

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Di Ma Heen Choy would also work well with Gwa Choy as an alternative to grab/Di Ma Heen Choy to temple. Use it to attack the hand/arm and create an opening. Consider:

Opponent standing with left foot/hand forward.
Right hand Di Ma Heen Choy to opponents lead hand.
Left hand grabs opponents back hand (with luck pins it across lead hand).
Simultaneously stepping in to Lady Horse delivering Gwa Choy.
Follow with either side kick, turn/Chow Choy or turn/block high(left)/finger strike behind groin(pressure point) like Little Mantis and Fatal Flute.

It could lead into the whole series near the end of 18 Elbows.
Replace fake low groin attack with Di Ma Heen Choy/step up Lady Horse/Gwa Choy/low mantis block/turn chop block/Weong Chang Tui/Gwa May Tui/punch.

[18elders]

if you did land the double toe kick in some way, i think you wouldn't be able to land in the wo dip ma, your energy would push you back, try it on a very heavy punching bag. I think the only move for the other guy would be to get out of the way, side step etc and block at the same time so i don't think you would be in a good position for the next moves?

[flem]

18elders

i think the kick, force is upward, so the push would be downward, as in kicking a heavy bag that your partner holds away from you. i believe in order to do the entire technique requires you to apply the fingers to the xyphoid process- hence the opponent will be bent over for the toe kick.
as for defense, my philosophy is to move in on jumps and knock them on their back, instead of giving them the space they need to apply thier technique.

speaking of space, i think that toe kicks(single) are meant to pierce the throat more often than kick up under the chin- like a leopard fist to the throat. in this way they do not require as much room to throw.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tam Hao Tui uses the point of the toe against soft targets like the throat. Jumping toe kicks should be directed forward attacking your opponent, not straight up in the air. Common mistake. Everyone tries to jump as high as they can. If I was fighting someone that tall I would take out the knees and groin.

I probably wouldn't try using the double toes except for the shock value. That's the kind of move that's great if it works but don't count on it. The follow-up technique would do the damage after you've brought his focus high.

[18elders]

that's what i mean, if you jammed the kick they would go back, thus unable to do the next moves. Even if you blocked it the force would throw them off balance so i can't even see it being done in some kind of 2 person exercise.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Have you thought about grabbing the hair (not hitting hands to feet) and kicking double toes to the eyes? That's a horrible thought. Or jump up/grab hair/pull head down/top of feet to the face? Or grabbing the sholders and double toes to the medsection? Any of the above, due to the holding, will keep your opponent in place for the follow-up punch.

[flem]

the hair part would be cool but if thats the case i would go with knee(s)- i guess the conclusion is that it is a good technique if you really out class the opponent and you want to finish with style. but wait, i saw a heel kick version of the tech in a movie once, the kicker purposely landed on his back and kipped up after- there's your answer 18elders- most likely will never use it but who knows.

[18elders]

grab hair, shoulders.
i think you would be too close to the opponent to either be able to jump up and do the kick, or be able to get enough power out of the kick.
Depending on you height you only have the length of your arms from you grab to your body to be able to execute the kick. I'n not tall so there isn't anyway i could pull it off.
Also if you grab him and you try to jump up for the kick, if he moves forward he'll throw you off balance and you could land on your back with him landing ontop of you. The only good thing there would be hopefully your knees hit him in the chest when he lands on you.

flem,
did you ever learn 6th form? How about you hau lin?
If so did you like it?
I thought it was the most basic out of the 6.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I was getting a little crazy on that one but I figure if you can hit your hands to your extended feet there's no reason you can't hold and kick at the same time. When you jump up your hands are breaking thru the guard. Should be easy enough to bring hands down to top of head, grab hair and kick. Anyhow, the way I look at some of the combos is that not every attack will be successfull so followup moves are neccessary. The fact that in this case you attack high then drop and attack low leads me to believe that the toes kicks are more diversionary (and a shock move) to allow for a clean low attack (more damaging than the toe kicks).

Looking at it from a 2-man angle don't think block, think evade. Remember the Cut Eyebrow in the second part of 2-Man?