Chi Sau

[ijedi]

If someone taught all aspects of Wing Chun EXCEPT for chi sau would you say they were still teaching Wing Chun?

How important is chi sau practice in Wing Chun and could it be taught irrespective of style?

What do you think?

[Wingman]

If someone taught all aspects of Wing Chun EXCEPT for chi sau, I would say it is not wing chun. Chi sao is wing chun's laboratory. The centerline theory, economy of motion, shortest distance between 2 points, etc. all these great "ideas" would remain just theories until you can make it work in chi sao.

"Absorb what is useful, to reject what is useless and to add what is specifically your own". How would you know which is useful and which is useless? Wing chun has the answer -- chi sao.

[whippinghand]

People do it already...

They left the chi sau out, and replaced it with an exercise called "rolling". Sometimes, out of habit or ignorance, they call it chi sau.

[edward]

chi sao is what seperates wing chun from all other martial arts..there are certain lines that don't even do chi sao and still call it wing chun....

bottom line, no chi sao.. not wing chun

[yuanfen]

They left the chi sau out, and replaced it with an exercise called "rolling". Sometimes, out of habit or ignorance, they call it chi sau. (Whippinghand).

no chi sao.. not wing chun(Edward)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Without chi sao- one is back into the karate/tkd world or
specific blocks against specific strikes without the flow, the timing and the automatic response.
Rolling is not the real issue, proper rolling is and provides an opportunity for early understanding of open and closed lines.
But chi sao and good wing chun motions mesh together. Without the usage of well developed bong tan and fok one does the worse kind of rolling.
Several other styles have "sticking motions" notably good tui shou of good taiji folks-but taiji also has problems of quality control.
But chi sao IMO as a wing chun person provides a greater range
of experience. If it didnt I would be doing something else.
Every possible wing chun motion can be honed in chi sao.
Without chi sao you dont develop good applications of wing chun.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

There are many arts which have sensitivity drills besides Wing Chun. Praying Mantis, Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Okinowan Karate and many Fillipino arts as well. To say that Wing Chun which does not include Chi Sau is no longer Wing Chun seems to me to be a bit short-sighted. Who first introduced Chi Sau into the art of Wing Chun? Was it always an integral part of the system?

I am playing Devils Advocate for a moment, I do practice Chi Sau and feel it is an important part of the system. However, just as there are those who do Wing Chun without forms there are those who do not do Chi Sau. Aside from the fact that there is no universal method of doing Chi Sau, some will roll some will not. Some have developed "sections" containing specific techniques, some do a free flow drill some with double hand, both hands mirrors of the other. Some reverse positions, I think you get the idea. Who is the authority who can judge what is and what is not "Wing Chun"? You can only base your views on what you have been exposed to. Some Wing Chun on the mainland looks quite different but the root remains the same. Just as there are several variations of Tai Chi, Hsing Yi and Pakua there are various interpretations of Wing Chun. Not all will remain the same in appearence or practice. Some will include forms, some will not. Some will include Chi Sau and Poon Sau, some will not. Some will have 108, 116, 120 or even more movements for the dummy. Some will have more than three emptyhand forms and some will have more weapons than just the two most commonly found. Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

Chi Sau is an important peice of the Wing Chun which I practice. It enables me to become more sensitive to an opponents energy and teaches me how to play with that energy, hopefully to my advantage ;) . However, you can learn to fight and fight quite well without the advantage of Chi Sau. I do think you would do better with Chi Sau and the skills developed from it but good Chi Sau does not necessarily equate a good fighter nor vice versa.

Peace,

Dave

[ijedi]

Great posts! However, I would like to address some of the issues that Dave brought up.

Does everyone think that chi sau is merely a sensitivity drill? While I would agree that chi sau does increase sensitivity...as I practice it chi sau does much, much more.

>Who first introduced Chi Sau into the art of Wing Chun? Was it always an integral part of the system?

These are good questions. Does anyone know the answer? The history of Chinese culture, and historicity of martial culture in general, is often times difficult to sort out being that eastern history is more interested in teaching you a lesson than documenting dates and events.

>Who is the authority who can judge what is and what is not "Wing Chun"? Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

Unfortunately I think that this falls into the trap of complete relativism. Definitions and words can make for a tricky game. The fact remains that if we go to a restaurant and order a steak and they serve you soup, you would be really confused. Then the server tells you, “You asked for steak, I served you steak. Who are you to say what is steak and what is not.” My point is that we do not have to be so politically correct as to allow for any all definitions.

However you still have a point on the authority of the system. Some in the Yip Man lineage have looked to him to somehow codify what we should do [I am not suggesting that this is right especially since Yip Man himself never wrote anything. We can only go by what others tell us].

More to point of what you are talking about Dave, would be what exactly defines Wing Chun?

Could a JKD practitioner call what he does Wing Chun? He goes after the centerline. He works with trapping; with tan, bong, and the vertical fist…What is to say that rattan sticks and boxing foot work (kali, escrima, or arnis) practiced in your kwoon is not Wing Chun?

These are not rhetorical questions, I am truly interested in what you think.

>Some will have 108, 116, 120 or even more movements for the dummy.

You need to look at the importance and significance of Chinese numerology to understand why 108 was used. Historically there has never been "exactly" 108 moves in any form, however organizing in this manner had spiritual and religious implications for the art. It is the perception of 108 that mattered more than the actual state of affairs. You can learn a lot about the organization of the art by looking at Buddhism philosophy from India and China.

This however has more to do with Western and Eastern aesthetics and should not be part of this thread.

[Sihing73]

Hello ijedi,

For the illustration of the ordering of a steak there is quite a difference between a steak and soup. In my mind a better example might be that you ordered prime rib and got a t-bone. Both are steak yet each one is of a different variety. Again, to my mind comparing soup and steak would be akin to comparing a stand up striking art with say a groundfighting art, quite a bit of difference. Still, I appreciate your illustration. I think that one must have certain concrete parameters around which one defines the system of Wing Chun. Some of these would include the concept of the centerline, efficiency of motion, acceptence of force or rather not meeting force with force, the four gates, etc. If an art falls within these confines then it could be defined as Wing Chun. Of course, having the specific shape in a movement does not make it Wing Chun. Taun and Bong are found in other arts as well but the application would be contrary to what most would accept as Wing Chun.

Wing Chun can be a highly personal art and therein lies both the beauty and problem. There is so much variety just within the Yip Man family that a firm definition of what Wing Chun is very hard to pin down, at least for everyone to agree on. Some step with all of the weight on the rear leg others more of a 50/50 and just about everything in between. What is important to remember is regardless of what one thinks there are proponents who can make their way work for them. So, is Wing Chun about what works? This leads us into a gray area. If one adheres to the common principles of Wing Chun they we could argue that you could do just about anything, kali footwork included and this would be Wing Chun. However, there would be subtle differences to seperate what is Wing Chun from what is kali. Some of this would be in the weight placement, the concept of enegry generation and even to the method and target when striking. My Wing Chun would look different from yours. To me Wing Chun is a constantly evolving form, when something is changed or added then it is still required to be applied based on certain principles. Recently my Sifu has made several changes to the manner in which we perform some of our forms. These changes were based on years of experieince of both our Sifu and his senior students. It was based on what we feel are the best ways to make everything applicable and work within the confines of our bodies. Does this now mean that we no longer do Wing Chun because our approach may look different? Or, do we do Wing Chun as long as we adhere to the maxims such as centerline, efficiency of movement, no clashing of force, etc? Or are we the only ones really doing Wing Chun? The answer could depend on who you ask and how big their ego is :D .

I think the big difference between Wing Chun, even one which incorporates other arts and JKD is in the foundation which is laid. Someone can do Wing Chun for years and then decide to incorporate or integrate something from another style. However, this is still applied from the standpoint of Wing Chun. In other words, when I do the sticks I do it differently from my partner who does Pekiti Tirsia, my approach, though similiar in appearence comes from my Wing Chun and is applied according to those principles. When one does JKD what one may find, based on my limited expereince, is someone who takes elements from different arts and builds them into something unique to them. There is no foundation or core which they built upon. They do some kickboxing, some grappling and some Wing Chun but each part is seperate and distinct from one another there is a seam or seperation even when in use. If an art is truly integrated into the core then there is no longer any seam. If JKD follows ALL of the concepts and principles of Wing Chun and incorporates other arts based on that foundation then it is possible for that art to be Wing Chun, IMHO.

As to the subject of numerology there is quite a bit on that subject available and I agree that this topic is not the best place to discuss that. However, my point on mentioning the variety in the number of movements was to illustrate that even the dummy is different from one student/sifu to another even when the root is the same. Again, who can say that what another does is or is not Wing Chun.

Of course, if someone uses force to fight force then it is fairly safe to say they are not doing Wing Chun. If for example, I use my Bong Sau as a forceful upward deflecting block then I would not be doing Wing Chun, but then again some might do it exactly this way ;) Again, who defines Wing Chun??????

I think that if one adheres to the commonly accepted principles then one can claim Wing Chun. Now we need to agree on what those common principles would be :D

Peace,

Dave

[yuanfen]

I think that if one adheres to the commonly accepted principles then one can claim Wing Chun. Now we need to agree on what those common principles would be

Peace,

Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Agreement" on wing chun principles lies somewhere in the vast Gobi desert.
You can call something anything you want- specially according to Alice-in Wonderland.
But then- A students, B students and C students, D students and F students dont always "agree" on the content of the subject matter that they claim to study!!! Do they?

((Dave-Commenting on your past comment on agreement<g>. I aint even a Republican- I like tacos, collard greens,menudo, posole, frog legs, fikchi, pigs feet,sofki, blood sausage, dandelions, pulce among so many other things that wouldnt make it to the fund raising dinners at republican gatherings!)

War? With a little peace on the side? Maybe? Onward thru the fog!

Joy (its my season):D :D :D

PS Never take net wisdom seriously folks!! PPS. Never say never!!

[TjD]

chi sau is just a part of wing chun

there are many important things which are just as important, if not more important if one was to learn how to fight

chi sau != fighting... its a drill, and a very valuable one; but if you cannot bridge the gap, its useless


peace
travis

[ijedi]

Hello! Great posts everyone.

Dave, you make some valid points. I am sure however that while it would be interesting to find agreement among the Wing Chun community, I feel that this would be rather futile [I am not saying you suggested that, only that it would be the next logical place to take this thread.]

I would however like to address something you wrote:

>When one does JKD what one may find, based on my limited experience, is someone who takes elements from different arts and builds them into something unique to them. There is no foundation or core which they built upon…If JKD follows ALL of the concepts and principles of Wing Chun and incorporates other arts based on that foundation then it is possible for that art to be Wing Chun.

I don’t know how many JKD people you have traded with that leads you to believe JKD not to have a foundation or a core which it is built upon. I can tell you after sharing and sparring with a good amount of individuals who profess to legitimately study JKD (including an full instructor under Dan Inosanto) that they do have a foundation and curriculum that it follows. It has stance work, tool development, drills, sparring, etc. All the techniques are launched from what they call the Small Phasic Bent-Knee stance or what in Jun Fun terminology is the by-jong. When you spar with one of the these guys believe me there are very little seams to speak of. Their footwork is very reminiscent of boxing and Kali.

Being that most agree that JF/JKD is not Wing Chun, what principles are could it be said are being violated to justify this opinion?

I would say one of the big ones is the absence of the Siu Lim Tao, among others. But to be honest I am not really interested in making this a JF/JKD discussion. Let’s focus on Wing Chun, shall we?

The game we play is let’s pretend and pretend we are not pretending…
- Ludwig Wittgenstein

[Sihing73]

Hello ijedi,

I agree that we should not make this a JKD/WC thread. However just to clarify, I found that several of the "professed" JKD people I worked out with had no real foundation. Thier approach consisted of a very basic mixture of different arts. I found that when I sparred with them there was a perceptable shift when they switched from one "art" or method to another. Of course, this does not mean they were any good.

As to the absence of SNT being a violation of Wing Chun; I would ask why this is so important. There are versions of Wing Chun without any forms at all but instead consist of San Sik (sp?) or seperate techniques. Then there is also Wing Chun Do which does have the SNT form but not the others, and is considered by most NOT to be Wing Chun. Given these two examples I would question SNT being a factor, but that is just my opinion. ;)

So now my question would be; are the forms a requirement for Wing Chun or can the art be learned without them?

Peace,

Dave

[hunt1]

but to focus on a couple.Dave the WC styles based on seperate techniques include SLT.Its just broken down into component elements.The SLT principals in other words are present.Presentation of material is the difference.

Chi Sau is an integral part of WC.Rolling vs non rolling Chi Sau to much is made of this.The goal is the same.The non rolling variety will end up in rolling if the practitioners are high lvl.The rolling that many practice come out of the older non-rolling .It was just systematized.

[Sihing73]

Hello Hunt1,

So you are saying that those lineages which teach the techniques but not the forms are really teaching the SNT? While I would agree that the elements are there they are different. To be fair all the forms do is present things in a different manner and sequence than otherwise, as you said. Still, there is a difference in learning and practicing a form and practicing elements or components of the form seperately. Things like flow would be affected so I would disagree that they are the same thing. Consider when you learned to write, first it was individual letters then building into words. Now if you wrote as a series of individual letters spelling out what you wanted to letter by letter this would be different and less practical than writing out words or groups of letters. Both would get the job done but each approaches things differently. Of course it could be as simple as comparing apples and oranges. Each one has its place and neither answers everyones tastes.

As to Chi Sau being an integral part of Wing Chun; are you saying that someone who does not practice Chi Sau is not doing Wing Chun? Would you advocate that the lack of Chi Sau would make them any less formidable a fighter? If a person has no access to a training partner but practices the forms and perhaps even works out on the dummy can they do Wing Chun yet not be doing Chi Sau? Granted the inclusion of Chi Sau would enhance thier Wing Chun but, does the absence make thier Wing Chun something different?

Peace,

Dave

[old jong]

Wow!...What a thread!...If I may add my illeterate opinion after all of this! I consider chi sau the way to learn how to feel attacks,lines of offense,e.t.c. It's useless to name all the benefits gained through patient and intelligent chi sau practice.It's a shortcut to real fighting.Some like to call it a bridge to fighting.Does this means that it is absolutely necessary for good wing chun?...I think that there are many ways to climb a high building. You could take the stairs.the elevator,a ladder,a rope.you could get there by helicopter,you could have someone carry you to the top! Once you get there,you would not care about the way you got there anymore.You just enjoy the view!;)So,if some lines out there don't do it the same way. Can we say they are wrong? If they got the feel some other way and can use it,where is the problem? Wing chun is fighting and chi sau is a drill.

[whippinghand]

I'm glad you made the distinction between chi sau and rolling. A subtle one, but there.

It seems that some have lost the idea of "sticking" in the chi sau, and in so doing, lose the essence of Wing Chun, resorting to chi sau/rolling as a reaction development tool, which ends up just being "rolling", as opposed to a "proactive" one (chi sau).

[hunt1]

I hate long posts but this may be one.

I personnally prefer fprms over the san sik methods but consider Fung family put their Gu lo WC into 2 sets ie forms.The seperate techniques are practiced in a linked fashion so flow is there.The depth of SLT may or may not be present but the overriding principles are.

No chi sao of some sort=no or only low lvl WC.Pehaps a bold statement.To go in reverse you can do WC without chi sao practice but only after you have first learned chi sao.For example I have not had anyone to chi sao with for over 2 years yet when I have had a few opportunities to chi sao with a visitor I have been fine.My skills are not as sharp as I would like them and positions may not remain tight throughout a session but my basic skill has not left me.

Without chi sao at all you end up with someone imitating WC but not actually doing WC.You may be a good fighter but how much better would the person be if they obtained the true depth of WC skill taught during chi sao.

With out chi sao how would you learn the following.True independent use of both limbs.(remember how much trouble newbs have just learning single hand?How many times did your sifu give you energy to one side hit you on the other and remind you 2 hands one brain or something like that.) how to absorb incoming force and better how to return that force to an opponent. How to use and manipulate the 12 energies.How can you truly integrate sink swallow leak etc without contact with a person at a non fighting level.How do you learn to be as water without learning about opposing force.How do you learn ghost hands etc.Yes these things can be learned without chi sao but can all of them and in a reasonable length of time.There are so many advanced principles contained within chi sau practice that without it your WC will never get to the highest level.Other arts use puch hands etc.Chi sao to me is a more advanced version of this.

If you can learn WC without chi sau then you can learn WC via video tapes.

I am making a distinction between levels of WC skill.The highest levels the internal if you will, needs chi sao.chi sao teaches how to use higher mental skills in combat.By this i mean the difference between forward energy and forward intent between true energy manipulation and control while engaged in combat and parlor tricks.