Push hands and Sparring

[taijiquan_student]

This is about the relation between push hands (tui shou) and sparring (san shou). I have pretty much always thought that push hands develops skills like circularizing, yielding, sticking and following, fajing to a certain extent, in the context of a basically non-threatening situation. It is when you do san shou that you are placed in a high-pressure and potentially dangerous situation, and have to use the skills you learn in push hands and the form in a "realistic" setting. I still believe this, but something that happened in class last night made me think.
In one of the later classes last night we were doing push hands, and it was just terrible.It was some of my worst push hands. Then, after class was over for the night, me and a fellow classmate decided to do some san shou. Not full-tilt, but it was pretty hard medium-contact, if that makes any sense at all (as in we weren't trying to kill each other, but at the end of 10 minutes there were some bleeding lips and the like).
Anyway, it was some of the best sparring I can remember. I felt really comfortable and soft, and it was some of my best san shou.
I guess my question, other than what you guys think is the relationship between push hands and sparring, is how could it be possible for me to do the worst push hands I've done in a while and then do some of the best san shou I can remember, all in a matter of minutes? Sorry for being so long-winded.

[Water Dragon]

My 2 cents

Push hands is dependant on cooperation.
San Shou is not.

[EARTH DRAGON]

If I may...Some days internal strength is strong and intelect is sharp... other days external is strong and perception is sharp. When we can have both constantly equal is a step towards enlightenment.....but for most of us its either or but very rarely both

[taooftaichi]

I don't think that push hands "must" be cooperative. True, both players should know what is going on (techniques and goals), but the level of "cooperation" can vary tremendously based on the skills and development of the players.

I.E. when teaching a new student I will not work greatly beyond his/her skill level to allow him/her to develop gradually without extreme frustration-which would probably lead to stiffness anyway.

But if I'm working with a more advanced student I will certainly push him/her more to discover and perhaps surpass their limits.
If by cooperation you mean that you're not trying to hurt each other, I agree. But again in sparring, as mentioned in the opriginal post, you don't go all out either and so sparring is "cooperative" as well.

It is possible that during push hands you may become more critical of your performance and observe all the detail you feel is "incorrect" or of a low level, if you are going very light and slowly. Then, in sparring, since the pace is usually much faster and more intense, you are "forced" to be in the moment and don't have time to be self-critical.

The fact that you perceived the sparring as at a higher level than your push hands should tell you that in fact you are developing quite a bit in your push hands, gaining martial skills, and are now able to apply some of that development.

Actually, I would feel that this is a good development, that is being sometimes self-critical during push hands, able to analyze and consciously adjust your methods allows you to work on specific points. Flowing freely during sparring would indicate that you are not becoming "too" mentally involved during your training.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think push hands is an important stepping stone to free hand usage. TC without this training IMHO becomes like any other art.

Push hands can be many things, but first and foremost it’s about getting and developing what is called ting jin (listening) skills as well as testing your understanding of the basic fundamentals of TC. Any problems or missunderstandings will show up here.

Many TC schools start from basic patterns and move into a freer style-pushing format.

For those who say push hands is cooperative if you push with people that you don’t know as in a park setting you can get dusted or you can get hurt very easily.
It depends on your level, the others level and what the push hands format is used for.

Many TC people use this to test their sticking. At a certain point sticking, following are the same weather in a push hand format or a sparring format. I don’t really understand those that say otherwise.

Maybe if they would be so kind to say what is differnt. :)

I really see no difference with the exception or not wanting to hurt or be hurt by the people I train with, pushing is not about pushing. ;)

[taijiquan_student]

I always find it interesting when I push with someone who isn't being cooperative, and is being very stiff and using brute strength. Sometimes they push me a lot and I get mad thinking they are not doing taiji, and they should be soft and what they are doing is not going to get them anywhere. Maybe this is partly true.
Then I realize that if what they are doing is so wrong and I know how to do it right, then why am I getting pushed all the time.

Anyway, I agree with bamboo.:)

[Water Dragon]

I complained about a guy being too hard in Tui Shou once. My teacher said "If you were soft, how would you know?"

That one shut me up quick.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“They should be soft and what they are doing is not going to get them anywhere. Maybe this is partly true.
Then I realize that if what they are doing is so wrong and I know how to do it right, then why am I getting pushed all the time”

This is a very good question.

First I would say they shouldn’t be anything. If they feel hard it’s because you are still resisting their force.
You need to really relax more. If you can really do this then they will feel as though they have nothing to push against and you will be able to really hear the direction, speed and timing of their push..

These may be some basic things that you already know about.


Two things.

1.if there is a front then there is a back. This means that if you feel hardness on one side then the other is empty. Think of their arm like a tube with energy flowing though it. If you feel hardness then this means you are pushing or working with the hard side. The other part of this means that in your self you always keep the idea of front and back in all that you do


2.you are getting pushed because you still have something to push against. Again relax and remember “seeking the curve in the straight” one meaning of this is not to have any angles that he can push against. But it sounds like your timing is off. Not before, not after. If you move in either direction it means that you are not really feeling him /her.


Really give up the idea of pushing someone, then and only then will your mind be free to understand what’s happening. Again really relax.

This is one of the most fundamental and often the hardest to really do. With out it you can’t do anything else. It’s both a mental and physical process. Many people talk of fa-jing and doing something using TC.

They must be very good I think, the work of sung (relax) and ting jing (listening) are key stones to TC usage.


luck in training :)

[No_Know]

The push hands, though poor, acted as lubrication, massage and stretching. Plus it had the calming your thoughts effect to improve your perceptions.

[Repulsive Monkey]

for those who feel that Push Hands is merely a co-operative drill then im afraid your art will never increase, and many vital skills may never be approached. Co-operation seems to suggest uniformity and and lack of spontenaiety, this is not Push Hands. The traditional Chinese saying of "No hit no learn" applies even more to Push hands than anything else. My Master when he walks around the class and decides to single some one out and do some pushing with them would not dare to be co-operative, he allows you feel first hand what it feels like to be neutralised, stuck to, followed, uprooted and thrown, or ejected upwards, backwards in circles or just drained of Qi(although this is not done intentionally). Push hands requires continual effort not co-operation in the sense of being nice to each other at all.

[Nexus]

In order to be successful with almost anything, we need to learn to cooperate, and push hands is exactly that, cooperation. In order to gain, we must cooperate with ourselves and with the group that we work with, be it one individual or ten individuals. In cooperating, everyone gains, and cooperation does not limit spontaneity or imply a sense of structure, it implies a common goal.

[No_Know]

Push hands with complete cooperation seems to be stereotypical perception of Aikido.

It doesn't seem to should be a two person drill as much as a testing of one's learning application. Each time one is to try to win, but within the boundries of the movements allowed.

It's all out application of that arts techniques. It's theoretically a learning experience but competitive. It is not merely the name of Fighting practice for T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Fighting isn't just fighting.~

[Nexus]

Competitive aspects exist within the mind of the participant. My teacher does not need to try and win in push hands with me. Holding a competitive mind-set is unnecessary mental tension.

- Nexus

[No_Know]

Life and death is competition. One does not have to try to do eiter for either to happen.

Some call it win. Some call it lose. But an end result of Push hands shows one to be not good enough, somehow. Whatever that means for you.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Can we look at it in a slightly different way?

Many talk of testing their art and really getting it. I think push hands is a good medium for this. Everything that can be done in TC can be done in pushhands. I think if one views it as winning or losing with out really having the skills than one is stopped at a certain point in their training.

It becomes a feeding ground for the ego instead of training ground for the sprit.

When one really has the skill, we still don’t talk of winning or losing we talk of streanghting the sprit.

Think o f winning as having a thought of something expected that hasn’t happened, the same can be said for loseing.

Instead of developing listening skills and learning to be in the moment your trying to win. The idea of balance is destroyed. No force, not against.

:)