Another Choy Lay Fut Question?

[Sow Choy]

Here is a question:

My Kung Fu brother who was a student of Grandmaster Chan Kwok Wai in Brazil taught me a few sets from Bak Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin), I found it interesting that their forms begin and end in the same spot.

My question to my Clf brothers is, when you begin and end your forms are you in the same spot? I know this not really important, but I have not heard from any of you guys in a while, maybe this will start some good discussion.

Peace,

Joe Keit
www.leekoonhungkungfu.com

[nospam]

Yes, for competition purposes, all patterns end in the same beginning/end spot.

nospam.
:cool:

[dutch]

Hi Sow Choy,

All the sets that I know, if done properly, will end in the same spot they begin. Sometimes they end facing a different way from the way your facing when you begin, but that is only a couple of sets.

Dutch

[Fu-Pow]

Yes, all my sets start and end in the same spot. Oddly enough I have trouble getting Fu-Pow Kuen to end in the same spot. I always end up a little bit right of center.

Peace

[Eddie]

Hi Sow Choy and everyone else.
First of all, seasons greetings to you all.

I am not really experienced enough to talk, but in my country, there used to be a rule set by the Wushu governing body that said all traditional style forms must begin and end in the same spot. This was also the rule for forms such as Nan Chuan etc (Nan Chuan was clasified as traditional and not modern Wushu).

It did pose a slight problem, and there were some masters from China who apposed this rule. Some forms that they were teaching did not begin and end at the same spot. As far as I know, this rule was waved at the Wushu body for time being.

I am glad you asked this, because I was wondering if they had this rule in the tournaments in the USA. Will you get penelised if you dont stick to it?

Have a good new year everyone :)

[CLFWolf]

We must notice that traditional styles of kung fu are not meant for competition and exhibition, but to effectively defend yourself.
Therefore, some forms may not end at the begining spot, specially the forms that are meant to teach how to react against multiple oponnents, in which the most important thing is movement through the eight directions (Bagua).
Peace.

[Sow Choy]

Hello

Thank you everybody for your replies. CLFwolf, I agree with you. But I believe forms go beyond fighting, why make a pattern that puts you somewhere else? Just wanted to see the significance in your replies. Ba Gua has 8 changes, not sure if each change is done in a certain spot or not but it could be significant.

Some of our forms end in a different spot, but our foootwork is fast and steps in a great deal, so it could be that we take different steps that make us end in a different spot.

Not a very important post, just wanted to hear your comments.

Happy New Year!

[Jimbo]

I am a CLF practitioner and quite a few of our forms do not end in the same spot as they begin. This goes for so-called "fighting sets" as well as sets that begin and end with a salutation. Even allowing for individual differences in stride, stance width, etc., many still end in a different spot.

Personally, so long as all the elements of the set are present and performed correctly, whether a set ends where it began or not is a very minor concern to me.
Jim

[Sow Choy]

Hello,

While practicing today, I was goin through the motions very loosely just to remember the 50 plus forms I have learned. I realized that the shorter sets, siu sup gee and siu ping kuen were some of the ones when I did full speed ended differently. The longer forms seem to end in the same spot.

But it seems so strange that when I practice the Bak Siu Lum set it always ends in the excact same place, strange! It seems mathmatically correct. Oh well, again not that important.

Peace,

Joe

[buksing_king]

In choy lay fut buk sing are forms do not finish where they started :o

[CLFNole]

Sow Choy:

The reason that Siu Sup Gee and Siu Ping Kuen don't finish in the same place is because they are just shortened versions of the real forms (Dai Sup Gee and Dai Ping Kuen), which generally do end in the same spot. When you do all of the forms with the full beginnings they do generally end in the same spot.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

I think CLF Nole is right. If you do the Siu Sup Jee then you will end up behind your starting point. If you do the whole set you will end up on target

But for Siu Ping Kuen I think you'd end up in the right spot. I can't say for sure because I don't know Dai Ping Kuen.

BTW, is there something secret about Dai Ping Kuen? For some reason my Sifu only teaches the Siu Ping Kuen. I asked him about Dai Ping Kuen and he was kind of dismissive.


Our Siu Ping Kuen ends with Chun/dragon stance, turn around/Sao Choy, Step forward to dragon stance/backward gwa choy, uncoil/chun la, step behind dragon/poon la, lok gwai ma/cheung ahn choy, kou ma/sa sau, lip so gin lai, hop ma gwa , sou se.

Is this the end of the form you guys know as Siu Ping Kuen?

[badfrog666]

I think it really doesn't matter. Question for any of you. Are you actually able to defend yourselves. For most of you, I highly doubt it. but hey, keep practicing your forms.

[Sow Choy]

CLFNole or people have been saying Noble,

Funny about your creen name lately. I know they are shortened, we are classmates.

Fu Pow, I believe we end the same.

Bad Frog,

This is just an unimportant post, we can post unimportant things from time to time? As for fighting, I enjoy that more than forms, and alot of CLF people I know usually dominate in the ring.


peace

[CLFNole]

Joe,

I think people are beginning to realize just how "Noble" I am. LOL

Peace.

[Sow Choy]

CLFNole or CLFNoble,

I think if people sit in front of the computer long enough Nole turns into Noble.

I say we call you CLFHandsome Oi!!!!

oi?

Oi!

Miss ya man! We got to go to Hiro's soon for some Japanese!

Handsome Joe:cool:

P.S.
FIRE UP THE GUNS! baby

[badfrog666]

sow choy, I have never heard of you in the tournament FIGHTING arena. As far as clf goes, I have never heard of anyone winning a tournament in fighting. I could be wrong. Maybe it is just your school that doesn't win much. Don't fret, you guys have nice forms.

[Sow Choy]

Hey Froggy,

Who are you anyway? What have you done? Not that I really care. The last tournament I was in was Tournament 2000, fought 5 times, the last I was disqualified. We always have alot of fighters, who are very sucessfull, especially the women.

Won Grand Champion of the event.

But, it really doesn't matter, I enjoy sparring with my friends alot more.

[badfrog666]

I never heard of tournament 2000. Do you plan on competiing again. I would like to see you fight. I went to your web site and it said you were the head instructor. You must be really tough then. Question, who is Li Siu Hung? I have heard of Lee Koon Hung, but not him. Where is Lee Koon Hung?

[Fu-Pow]

I suggest that before everyone gets all upset that we just ignore this schmoe, he's obviously trying to stir up trouble.

Why don't you get a life, buttfrog?

[Sow Choy]

Hey Guys,

No need to get angry at badfrog, sometimes I feel the same way. You go to these tournaments and it seems more like a star trek convention with all the forms, rules, regulations it gets too nice and neat, when it all came from combat. But, respect is something we all should practice more.

Besides what are we gonna do? Threaten each other, I am badder than you are kinda stuff, lol. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, if badfrog doesn't know us and his experience with CLF is bad, he will make obvious conclusions.

Badfrog, where are you from my friend? Tournament 2000 was a very large tournament held in Orlando Florida. You can get a video copy at: www.wahlum.com

I enjoyed the tournament because each division was very large. I believe in my fighting division there were 30 people. In hand forms 48.

Our Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung passed away in 1996, he was full contact champion in coach from Hong Kong. When we lost him his younger brother Li Siu Hung, now 45 started training when he was around 7, took over Lee Koon Hung's headquarters school in Ft. Lauderdale.

As for me being a good or a bad ass, nah! I could be much better, and do admire people with good skill in fighting and kung fu. I teach full time now, I put in about 60-70 hours a week teaching, taking care of both our schools, and training too.

Check out our website for more info on our Sifu and his brother.

Peace,

Joe Keit

[RAIN]

sow choy


thank you for teach us this lessons of humility and patience .
just in time , when all of you wanna search and destroy .
i believe you have in your heart the best of lee koon hung and li siu hung . and i believe you'll become a great master , more than your masters . and i don't wanna be disrespect with them . i admire both of them .

badfrog

i'll going to take the smart advice of fu pow and ignore you .


about lee koon hung 's legacy

when i'd start to search info about choy lay fut i'd chat with a lot of people of others branches , maynly doc fai wong . they say critics about lee koon hung's lok quei ma and variations in his hung sing style .
but all always show respect about the terrific legacy of his school . masters of the maynly and powerful kung fu styles respect him ever . ( chan pui , buck sam kong , etc )
and his students show a high level kung fu over the world .
a lot of champions was raised because of him .

i only wanna pay my admiration and respct to the late grandmaster .

[Sow Choy]

Rain,

Thank you for all the kind things you said. And I am happy that you are trying to train CLF over there without a teacher.

My Kung Fu brother Eddie from South Africa teaches many students. He learned his Kung Fu from different teachers and has established a strong school there. His students all had so much heart and ambition, it was awesome. Here in America we take things for granted too much. When I was with my South African Kung Fu family I learned many valubale lessons.

I have never really liked the whole distance learning course, and still don't like it much, but I do believe that videos can help a motivated person with the heart and ambition to push them to their limits.

Guys,

Don't let the frog bother you, maybe he really doesn't know about us. He might not be insulting us, and if he is, who cares.

Just like Chen Yong Fa,

I have never heard of him or anything his students have done. Only that he is related to Chan Heung. His relation doesn't matter much to me, I have seen his website, and recently seen some video clips, not bad. I would like to learn more about him, and even train with him if the chance arrives.

But I am not gonna disrespect him, because I don't know him or of him. And if I didn't like him, I still wouldn't say that. And I feel you can always learn something from someone. Even your students!

Peace

Joe Keit
(Definitely not a Master):D

[badfrog666]

First off, my condolences on your sifu's death. I had no idea. I just recently started getting into Kung Fu and am learning more and more each day. I am curious though, how much did you actually train with him? Where you his top student? Also, I never heard of his brother. Why don't they spell their names the same way? Just curious.

[RAIN]

badfrog 666

maybe you start here whith the wrong foot . so , there is no problem . people here is very friendly . but kung fu got many divisions and is sad but is a reality that there is a lot of people that are searching the type of discusion about " my style is better that you style " .
but also there is a lot of good persons that knows a lot of authentic kung fu and are ever ready to help to everybody .
try to get close them and forget the non sense discusions .
if you get any question about kung fu , just ask . here always is response .

good look in you search .

[Sow Choy]

BadFrog,

I trained with Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung for close to 2 years. After my 1st year of training, he gave me a job and began training me to be an instructor. I had many Kung Fu brothers at a higher level than me. Me a top student? I would hope he would have considered me one of his top, but I was not very experienced, I helped teach and did alot of Kung Fu & Lion Dance Demonstrations. He did live to hear about my first tournament, 2 first places and 1 second. But he was hospitalized at the time, and he was the tournament promoter. A very sad time.

When he passed away, he had only taught at our location here in the USA for about 3 years total. His skill at teaching was incredible! He came here with his 3 daughters and wife, none of them spoke english, had no help teaching, and taught very quickly and trained his students very hard. I believe this stress may have been detremental to his health.

My Sihings learned very quickly, in 3 years they learned what someone would learn normally in 8 years. The reason for this type of teaching is he needed help and he wanted to make a name for our school. He sure did! I understand that you don't know of our school, you would need to research some magazines and tournament videos from the past.

We are known for doing extremely well at tournaments in all divisions, and many of Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung's top students from Hong Kong teach all over the world. I would say that the Lee Koon Hung branch of Choy Lay Fut is well known and respected. I am very proud to be part of our school.

The spelling of Lee or Li is the same in Chinese, Li Siu Hung when born, was written Li, I believe the English prefer that spelling. Similar to Choy Lay Fut, Choy Lee Fut & Choy Li Fut. All written in Chinese the same, just spelled in English differently.

BadFrog,
Good Luck to you! Kung Fu is a wonderful art no matter what the style. Kung Fu is always with you and WILL change your life.

Take care brothers,

Joe Keit

P.S.
If anyone is in Florida, I invite you to the Grand Opening of our branch school in Boynton Beach. Go to our website for details.
www.leekoonhungkungfu.com

Sun Neen Fai Lok! -Happy New Year!

[badfrog666]

sow choy, you said you trained with Lee Koon Hung for two years. If you are the chief instructor, what happened to your instructors?

[JAZA]

If is not indiscretion and with all the respect, what happen to Lee Koon Hung?

[Sow Choy]

Hello,

Lee Koon Hung suffered complications after having a heart transplant. He was very stubborn and didn't rest like he should have and always had company. He caught a slight infection, had pink eye and his body's immune system was very weak, so unfortunately we lost him.

I am the chief instructor for a few reasons:

1. Two of my sihings have opened their own schools, some instructors have followed them. Their are still some that remained.

2. I have been the only full time instructor/ employee for quite some time. Some advantages are being able to practice and teach up to 5-6 hours a day. Now having 2 schools, I have to plan my time better.

3. Being with my sifu for such a long time I know how he would like to run our school better. Being chief instructor mainly means keeping all the other instructors informed on whats going on, and organizing everything. Also the instructors have and continue to help so much, and have contributed to the sucess of our school. I try to gather their thoughts, ideas and to keep everyone focused together. Teamwork is essential.

4. My sifu made the choice, ask him one day if you meet him. :)

Take Care,

Joe

[JAZA]

My condolences for your family, it must be a great lost.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Sow Choy
I just popped over from the Northern Mantis forum and wanted to say best of luck with the new school. I took a seminar with Master Lee Koon Hung when he first came here. He was very good at teaching even without speaking any english. I was very impressed. You might be interested in hearing that every year since his death my kung fu brother Mike and I perform CLF at least once during our Chinese New Years shows in Orlando in his memory.

Congratulations on the new school and I wish you success.


David Scott
Wah Lum Kung Fu Temple

[RAIN]

hua lin laoshi


I'd learn a wah lum tang lang form called cha kuen years ago . with this form i 'd won a lot of kung fu competitions in my early days in kung fu .
is a great form and i got too many love for the form .
also there is in the form a open lok kwai ma stance like in the choy lay fut of grandmaster lee koon hung .
i'll like knows something about this form . is the only one i know from wah lum .

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

RAIN
Where did you learn the form? It doesn't sound familiar but It's possible I know it by another name. You can e-mail me directly if you like. I don't want to impose on this thread or forum.

[Charp Chui]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sow Choy
[B][FONT=century gothic]Here is a question:

My Kung Fu brother who was a student of Grandmaster Chan Kwok Wai in Brazil taught me a few sets from Bak Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin), I found it interesting that their forms begin and end in the same spot.

Joe,

This is interesting to know that you have an associate who trained under Chan Kwok Wai. Since he learned some Bak Siu Lum sets from Master Chan, did your Gung-Fu brother learn any Buk Sing from Chan Kwok Wai?

It has been told to me that Chan Kwok Wai knows both of the Hung Sing as well as the Buk Sing branches of Choy Lay Fut. Intrinsic to some Buk Sing branches, they possess some core Bak Siu Lum sets that were adopted and handed down through certain Si-Fu who participated in the exchange of students between Tam Sam and Ku Yu Cheung. So it is not uncommon to find Buk Sing practitioners who know one or some Bak Siu Lum sets within their branches.

Now I mentioned how "some" Buk Sing branches have Bak Siu Lum sets, which suggests that others do not. Well, I only know of one branch so far that does not intrinsically have BSL forms...and that's mine.

Now on the flip side, I have always wondered if there were any Bak Siu Lum practitioners who knew any Buk Sing sets, which has been rather rare to find. The closest I have discovered is Chan Kwok Wai. I first discovered this from a recent article from Inside Kung-Fu magazine (No offense to Kung-Fu Magazine...ha) which mentioned this little factoid. It left an URL address to one of the branch schools there in Florida which I contacted to vindicate this. Basically, I was told in brief that Chan Kwok Wai knew Buk Sing. I was given an e-mail address to one of Chan Kwok Wai's top students (Roberto Baptista) that teaches in the same area of Brazil where master Chan lives. So I e-mailed him a few times in between over the course of many weeks...No Response...No surprise.

Anyway...about starting and ending points on forms...

Our Buk Sing sets generally arrive at the same starting point, given a foot or so in a couple of the sets. I understand your view that this isn't meant to be a real technical issue, but interesting to notice.

The one set I know that would define a real noticeable ending is in the Lau Gar Spear set that I learned in the Wah Lum system. This set was adotped into Wah Lum Preying Mantis (oddly enough). You start facing front and you end facing at a 90 degree angle toward the left with your right side facing the front, practically at the same staring point from where you started.

One more thing, (I know I am rambling now) even though I do not know Bak Siu Lum, I do know a Northern Long-Fist style called Hua-Chuan. Forms are long, and they end same spot where you start...

Take Care...

Charp-Chui

[Sow Choy]

Charp Chui,

Thanks for the reply, I was just thinking of Sup Gee Kow Dah, and a discussion I had with my sifu and some KF Brothers about sup - the number 10 in Chinese, is written like this: +

Therefore the pattern of the form is done in that way, like a cross. Now that I started this topic, while practicing I noticed that when doing the forms slow, they all end generally in the same spot. But not as exact as the Bak Siu Lum.

To answer your question, yes my kung fu brother does know some Buk Sing. I am not sure how many forms or which he knows, but he showed it to me a few times, it was alot different then what we do in our style, but pretty cool stuff.

Another of my Kung Fu brothers trained under a student of Grandmaster Chan Kwok Wai, don't remember the sifu's name, but he also knew a buk sing form, in fact I remember it being the same form. It had a move similar to Hung Gar where you use to Tiger Claws and circle both hands very wide in front of the body.

I will ask them more about their experience and get back to you. I recently learnt Pek Kwar Dahn Do, and again, ends in the same spot. Cool Form. I find the two styles compliment each other in some ways. It has helped my extension and stances alot.

Anyways, take care my friends, wish you guys could be at the grand opening of our branch school this saturday.

Also Thank you to everyone for your support and kind words, I appreciate it, and it definitely helps to be encouraged.

Hua Lin,

Tell Mike and everyone, we hope to see them Saturday, and if not send a huge shout out from your brothers down south. Thank you for your respect of our sifu Lee Koon Hung, it is nice to hear he affected you in that way, and that is great about remebering him with his forms, that is the way he would like to be remembered.

Peace to all,

Joe Keit