Who Has Chi

[maoshan]

I have a question for all of you who practice Anyone of the Internal Styles.
In particular Tai Chi. In the last thread I posted, toward the end,
Someone said some thing that really made me think.
How many of you have Chi to use your art?
and how long did it take for you to get there?

Understand, In Tai chi In particular all I have ever heard in terms of training is the slow form and Push hands, and Chi Gong. Which means you must depend on Chi to fight.
Someone hit me back on this.
Maoshan

[KungFuWarrior]

No that is not correct. Tai Chi is practiced in the manner that it is so that one can draw focus the energy. The longer one practices, the quicker this energy can be drawn and focused.

However a practitioner can not what around in this constant state 24/7. At least not that I have seen. Therefore imagine that for some reason you are caught off guard, what are you going to do? ask your attacker to wait until you can summon & focus. Of course not, that's why there are sound principles of combat within the system.

Does that help?

[fiercest tiger]

We all have chi or we would be dead! Taiji helps to move and store, build it. It also can deplete it!!

Chi is always leaving the body even when fighting, beginners even non martial artist has chi! Are you saying that only high level martial artist use chi??? :confused:

The chi resides in our body, make our heart pump, blood move thats why we are alive. Sorry if i missed your question!!:(

[yuxiang]

Well said!
But does chi go bad? Like when you get sick?

[fiercest tiger]

are u talking to me?

ive never heard of bad chi but only weak chi?!:confused:

[wisdom mind]

my reply: first the background/setup

i have learned tai chi sets from 2 instructors:

the first - i learned when i was 15 years into other martial arts
i learned to mimick the class for months
i never felt this chi or had any further concept
past its generic definition
everyone else seemed to "get it" and had been training with that "sifu" for at least 3 years.

the Sifu i learned only 7 postures from (nov) showed me each move in detail from the get go....within minutes i could feel the form, even though the movements were similar to the first form of tai chi i studied, this time i Really could grasp the heat and flow of the form.

that is background, now a shot at answering the original question maoshan sifu aksed.

i could say it took me about 21 years to grasp chi, this is because i only overstood the concept upon feeling it, and it was 21 years into my practice that i could feel and use chi.

i could also say it took 7 years because it was 14 years into my practice that i started hearing of this chi, then 7 years later i learned the proper tai chi posturing mentioned above

i could also say it took 10 minutes because i felt chi 10 minutes into learning proper mechanics from a competent and detailed sifu
that could and did demonstrate the application and usage of chi in varying degrees or flavours. once i felt it i had a base to work from.

i need to monitor and gather chi levels using tai chi, ba gua, yi chuans etc regularly (ie every day, throughout the day) and i do feel that development of chi is imperative if one wishes to practice physical arts into old age and to be a formidable internal fighter, it does take a "leap of faith" to get started in chi works but its well worth it.


plain and simple. if you dont feel it you dont feel it.

adjust your posture, practice more regularly or get a sifu that can guide you properly.

word!

yi wu

[count]

But it's a good read. It seems to me that most people don't know what chi means. If someone told you to look for something and never told you what it is, I imagine it would be rather tough to find it. Personally, I became aware of certain aspects of it from the first year and over time, other things become apparent. But what really opened up the flood gates was when I learned bagua chi kung and than my whole body was awash of it. But chi can not really be defined as any one thing. This little excerpt from our website trys to put things in perspective.

Chi Defined:

The idea of Chi is fundamental to Chinese Kung Fu and Medical thinking. However, because of its new arrival, the English language has yet to formulate a word or phrase that can adequately define its meaning. We do know that Chi is not some changeless, perpetual substance everything in the universe is composed of and defined by. Nor is it the proverbial "natural force" or "vital energy force", for, although it is occasionally translated in that way, traditional Chinese thought does not distinguish between matter and energy. Perhaps we could say that it is energy at the point of materializing? Unfortunately, neither classical (the Wong Di Nei Jing) nor contemporary (the Shanghai Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine) medical text attempts to describe the nature of Chi as a concept. Instead, they define or perceive Chi functionally by what it does in our bodies.

The Chinese medical texts describe Chi manifesting from three sources.The first is called "Prenatal Chi", which is transmitted from parents to their children at conception and is stored in the Kidneys. This explains why children inherit their parent's constitution. The second is "Earth Chi", which comes from the foods we eat. The third is "Heavenly Chi", and is extracted from the air we breathe. These form the Chi that permeates our entire body. Chinese medical texts also describe Chi as having several variant aspects and functions. Within the body, Chi possesses five major functions responsible for the soundness of our bodies.Chi is the source of all movement, voluntary and involuntary, whether walking, thinking or aging, all depends on Chi. It is inseparable from movement and grows with it. Chi protects our bodies from the environment. Hostile influences such as illness are resisted. Chi controls change within our bodies, such as digesting foods into blood, saliva, sweat, and bile. Chi keeps things inside our bodies where they belong. Organs from sagging, fluids remaining in their place, and prevents loss. Chi warms the body. If you doubt this, just touch a dead one.

Chi also has five primary types associated with specific actions within our bodies:

Organ Chi - Chinese Medicine states that every organ has the same Chi, yet each performs differently depending on the nature of its Chi.

Meridian Chi - Meridians are the pathways through which Chi travels to the various body parts adjusting and balancing their activities.

Nutritive Chi - This Chi is associated with our blood. It travels within our bloodstream transforming nutrients from our foods.

Protective Chi - This yang Chi regulates our immune system aiding in combating illness and disease.

Ancestral Chi - This Chi's function is to regulate our breathing and heart rate.

Remember to keep in mind that this is merely an introduction to the concept and nature of Chi and its relationship to the body. Chinese medical theory does not move in a linear fashion like in the West. The whole is always present and is refined with learning over time.

[beaudacious]

there are some good thoughts(in particular counts) on here and some not so good. If you study tai chi or other internal system and it takes longer than a year or 2 to start understanding or feeling chi on a basic level that you can feel and explain to others than something is amiss . Also it is worth mentioning that there are 3 basic levels of chi not mentioned on here (i.e skin, nerve and bone chi). All have distinct different feelings.
Chi does not go bad but does become imbalanced when you are sick. As far as applying it in fighting its not something you want to give a new student to think about, however you do want to devlelop a body mind connection(over time) so you can acces the chi on thought instead of doing chi gung for 30 - 60 minutes. We all have chi its just some have deeper awareness and ablities. As for the amount of time it takes that is reliant soley on the student as long as the material he is learning is quality stuff. Try this out. next time you do shadow boxing make believe the opponent is bigger stronger and meaner (maybe there is 2 or 3 of them) then do one of your strikes or othere techniques while the fear and adrenaline is there see if it feels any different

[EARTH DRAGON]

I must applaud your description of what chi is! Although I have trainined qigong for many years, and have tried to explain what chi is to many people in laymens terms, including western doctors, and scientists but could never nail down or find the exact simplified decription as you have posted above. hats off to you , did you write that?

[count]

I am the webmaster for our site Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com) I can't take credit for the writing, it is simply the way my teacher teaches and the writing is contributed by all the students in our class. We have much more stuff but I haven't found the time to update recently. But much more is on the way.

My favorite quote that I use when people ask me "if chi is real" is

Chi warms the body, if you don't believe me, touch a dead one! :D

[maoshan]

Fiercest Tiger

First point.
Let’s not get elementary with our thinking here. O.K.?
Of course we all have Chi. It’s the fundamental force of the Universe. I’m talking about Combat Chi. from my experience,
I’ve met tai Chi practitioners who feel that all they need is the slow form and Push hands to deal with any situation. (I’ve even met Ba-Gua people like that)
Of course a good instructor makes the difference in any case. Especially one versed in good tactics.
What I’m referring to is that, in a 6mo period do you feel that you have trained long enough to defend your self against a fairly good aggressive fighter? Hell, let’s make it 2yrs. On the norm is it possible for you to have combat chi?

This is the one to debate.

My opinion is:
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong. And at best what you get with this practice is good health. Combat requires Physical conditioning. The muscles must be worked. Without that you’ll get dropped like anyone else in a situation.
Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win?

Wisdom Mind
You answered the question right.
Through your previous training, you developed a reserve of Chi
That way when a competent instructor set you up, you could almost immediately feel the flow.
The point I’m Making is that most don’t have an inking about what true chi is. True, the heat or tingling feelings are some signs.
But what most put across in their conversation is that they have An Jing or Mysterious chi. on the level of empty force.
And not to dis anyone, Too few of you in this forum or in this country train that hard. Wisdom mind answered right because of the 21yrs of elapse time. Such ability, to only rely on Chi In it’s Yin extreme would take half a life time to achieve but yet most talk like they can do it right now. And if you can I’d love to see this. I make no such claim my system is balanced. I’m, striving for that end
And I’m going tom reach it. But not by fantasizing.

Maoshan

[Kevin Wallbridge]

In Chinese medicine Qi is actually clearly defined as the interaction between Yin and Yang. When you talk about Organ Qi you are talking about the relationship between the substance Yin) of the organ and its metabolic functioning (Yang). When you talk about Zhen Qi, the "true" Qi of the person you are talking about the relationship between the mind (Shen) and the body (jing). When you are talking about meridian Qi you are talking about the relationship between the body exterior and interior (biao + li).

When a person dies the process is described as the seperation of Yin and Yang, not the loss of Qi. Because if Yin and Yang seperate there is no Qi. However keep in mind that the relationship betwen Yin and Yang is a process not a state. Therefore Qi can be thought of as the potential influence of these relationships. When a person bleeds they lose blood, and Qi is said to carried out of the body with it, this is because the potential of the body is leaking out.

So do you use Qi when fighting with Taiji? Obviously, its just that the more conscious awareness and physical structure are connected then the greater potential that you have to work with and so more Qi.

The crudest level is muscle level, just sweaty meat struggling because the mind does not know the body. Then there is bone level, where connections are made deep into the frame, but it is not too responsive. Then there is Qi level, where the structure begins to be able to respond quickly to changes in potential as the engagement progresses. Then there is Yi/mind level, when the thought moves the encounter is decided

[EARTH DRAGON]

Just checked out your website and was intrigued to find out that su yu chang studied with my shrfu shrfu Wei Xiao Tung, my shrfu is Shyun kwan Long master Wei's closed door diciple of 8 step praying mantis. I also learned the Wu style Tai chi system from him that master Wei exchanged with Wu Ching Chen. How is su yu chang related to you ? please respond......I also practice medical qigong , gin gon tzu li gong from world famous Yen Chu Feng. I am waiting to hear form you .... your freind E.D

[count]

Check your PM's

[Justa Man]

not to take away from this post, but what builds chi?
Maoshan said this...
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong.
What type of auxiliary exercises do you mean and am I correct in assuming that you (Maoshan) think these "auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong" are what build chi? What does everyone else think?
Just wondering.

[No_Know]

"The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. "

So, the ch'i is conducted to? when doing the t'ai chi ch'uan form.

"Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win? "

All things being equal~since push hands nullifies the winner would be the one who was sticking to forms and pushhands

[fiercest tiger]

hahaha i gave you an basic answer to a basic question?

you can get chi from good fresh food too!

i understand what you mean, what is combat chi?

what about people that are ordanary street fighters and havent trained combat chi, but still f@ck you up anyways? does a combat chi fighter fight dirtier or better than someone that doesnt have combat chi?

i really dont see your question!! sorry mate:(

ykm has internal work also, i wouldnt call it combat chi just hard training and conditioning with good skill!! i do believe in chi and feel the chi moving in the body and try and use it for healing people. combat chi is skill, has mike tyson trained long enough in chi kung to become world champ?

[blacktaoist]

Maoshan thread was about, who has Chi. Not about what is Chi?(Theories and principles or general concepts of chi) But like always people reply with post that is not what the thread is about.

Maybe Maoshan should have said who can utilize they chi in a fight. Maybe a few people then can comprehen better.

No_Know you write:
All things being equal~since push hands nullifies the winner would be the one who was sticking to forms and pushhands

In the old days Tai Chi practitiners practice body conditioning training to survie in a fight. Just practicing forms and pushhands will not manifest powerful Techniques to stop a Professional Martial art fighter or even a good street fighter.

The Traditional Chinese Kung fu masters have a saying, If you just train forms and drills and not Gong, then when you get old , all your practice will be in vain."

In my opinion to your above statement, The winner will be the Tai Chi guy who practice conditioning training. In the real World of combat, strength and endurance are necessary for effective techniques. Without body conditioning a peron will not be able to last in a fight, and if they get hit by a skill fighter thats been Condititioning training. They be good as dead."

I don't care how much Chi intent skill or daydreaming mind intent, or projecting so-called Chi energy out in push hands or in a real fight, if the person don't train in conditioning training, they will not survive in the real World of combat.

People need to stop Chi dreaming and get to some real hardcore traditional Kung fu training.

Peace.

[fiercest tiger]

This is what im saying! Do jujutsu or shoot fighter train chi kung? so why are they kicking most kung fu guys butts?

hard training and sparring or fullcontact fighting gives you the edge...reality fighting or sparring using edge weapons and sticks, bats, chains and bottles are gonna give you the killer instinct to live when it gets ugly.

[blacktaoist]

Thanks Fiercest tiger. Also I like your post.


Here is some thing for You Tai Chi Chi fighters go to:http://members.tripod.com/%7Ecrane69/index6d.htm

This guy have a article with pictures of Tai Chi Expersts getting beatdown" by Professional Muay Thai fighters.

My Question to you Tai Chi guys is? Where was these Tai Chi Expersts pushhand skills or chi power LOL."

Where was the Neutralizing skills or they explosive energy that Tai Chi is said to have to end a fight?

Bottom line if you are not training real Kung fu, you end up just like them Tai Chi Expersts, if you ever met a real Martial artists that trains old school. (Body Conditioning and Impact Training.)

Peace
:(

[wisdom mind]

was that most people did not overstand the original question

aside from that....

i agree with you sifu, even a practitioner of many years with experience in competition will find that their world is all fizzuckeeed if they fight full contact with no rules and they have not done tree or partner conditioning

if you are not prepared for the shock of getting struck then you are in for a reality check your books and sifu cant help you when the time comes to put up or shut up

every martial artist needs a good whuppin now and then to keep them "grounded"

burn the batti mon

i cant wait for the full contact seminar ive been hooking up the brooklyn trees so lovely :) LOL

Black - I need to talk with you this weekend if you have time, email me what is a good time to call - no big deal just wan fi touch base.

[count]

:o Excuuuuse me, if you didn't like my post. But the question stated was,

How many of you have Chi to use your art?
and how long did it take for you to get there?
I think I answered that in the first paragraph. I merely used references from 2 pretty good sources for the benefit and enjoyment of others who cared to read it and to see where maoshan was going with his questions.

Maoshan, You later stated...

This is the one to debate.

My opinion is:
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong. And at best what you get with this practice is good health. Combat requires Physical conditioning. The muscles must be worked. Without that you’ll get dropped like anyone else in a situation.

First, I already testified to the benefits of chi kung in helping my personal development but I don't think it is anything more than a supplement. Most chi kung postures are within the forms anyway so I don't think it is a necessary and the tai chi form does open the channels for proper circulation. But the second part of your opinion has more to do with conditioning and muscles. Is that to imply that chi kung exercises have more to do with conditioning and muscles than the forms? Or are we talking about another kind of training?

Can you learn to fight by practicing only forms? Maybe, I know I couldn't. Can you learn to use your chi in fight to protect an area or to help you recover faster? Yes, maybe would take some practical experience but it can be done! Can you shoot chi bullets from your hands and kill your opponent in a fight? HeII no! So what are we talking about when you say combat chi?

[Water Dragon]

Train hard, Train smart
Chi happens

[blacktaoist]

Count write:
Excuuuuse me, if you didn't like my post

If I didn't like your post ,you would know about it Because I would have Told You. Yes your Post had good general information on what chi is about. But your post had nothing to do with what Maoshan post was about In my opinion.

if people that post up here on this internal web page don't understand or know about general chi theory, then they ass should not be on this web page."

Maoshan write:How many of you have Chi to use your art?

Maoshen write this statement because a lot of you so called scholars of Chi Theory on Kungfuonline claim to be able to utilze this so called chi or fa-jing with out practicing any kind of conditioning or impact training.

I have met a few people on kungfuonline that before I met them, that post a lot of replys talking like they train will hard and they have true skills in the so called internal martial arts.

When I met them they had nothing, No fighting skills whatever." They had no conditioning and they fighting method of offensive and defensive was not practical. If they live in my hood they be good as dead." A street fighter would eat them up."

Bottom line, people can talk a good game, but when the time comes to met another Martial artist that is very skill in the old ways of training. When it is time to cross hands or freefight,pushhands or what ever game you play. If you are not train right and your style of combat is not practical." All the chi kung and Esoteric internal theory will not help your ass when you met a real train martial art fighter.

And thats way them Tai Chi experts got they ass kick by them Muay Thai fighters." Not because The style of Tai Chi is bad, but because they was not condition for real combat. The Muay Thai fighters were condition for real combat and this they mind manifest a killer mindset. They didn't play the pushhands game or play Tai Chi form and talk theory all day to beat they Tai Chi opponents.

They just train hard utilizing the proper methods of fighting." Something a lot of so-called internal martial artist need to do."

Peace.


Yi Wu Give me a call at my House. I'm home right now. :)

[wisdom mind]

i will touch base with you during the week-end

ill be in the studio from midnight till wednesday morning.

its cold out there! time to up the jing levels lol

peace

[count]

I do hear what you are saying and I was just kidding around anyway. But I will say this. The fight you mentioned (twice) happened more than 44 years ago (the year I was born, actually). Find out who went to Bangkok to fight and win the Muay Thai Championships in heavyweight, light heavyweight and cruiser weight division for the last 6 consecutive years. I will say this, he used Baji not tai chi, but his teacher has one of the best books on tai chi you will ever find. Pick up The Invisible Web by Dr. Su Yu Chang. (If you are of a mind to read some theory);)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“ Have a question for all of you who practice Anyone of the Internal Styles.
In particular Tai Chi. In the last thread I posted, toward the end,
Someone said some thing that really made me think.
How many of you have Chi to use your art? “

I do.

”and how long did it take for you to get there? “

Over 10 I would say but I didn’t really understand things until over 25+ yrs of training. Understanding as in just getting the basic idea of working with it.


”Understand, In Tai chi In particular all I have ever heard in terms of training is the slow form and Push hands, and Chi Gong. Which means you must depend on Chi to fight.”

In correct, hard to explain.

First I have had training in:

Lama hop gar.
Plum flower mantis
7* mantis

So I know and understand what many of talk about conditioning training. I have also tested what i worked with to my satistfaction

In my experience to really meet the requirements o f TC is very, very hard.
because it is really hard, not many people get to the point where it really becomes functional. IMHO most people are far below the level that they think they are. even in the basic things like sung.
it takes awhile, but once you find it you will know. :)

the hard i talk of is the hardness of letting go.

You do not depend on CHI to fight, it’s a byproduct of correct training. All this impact condition that BT talks about is irrelevant. You don’t need it.

I have used my TC in sparring matches and also the attributes developed using TC in playing with my mantis. Now I only play the TC. Cheng Man Chings style to be specific. It has all that I need at this point.

Shen, YI, CHI, for me these are the cornerstones of my training and understanding.

The TC people that I have met in SF are very real with their art. They will and can hurt you if they want to.
To think otherwise is a mistake.


haveing said this, it's always the person and their understanding of their art that makes it real.

[PlasticSquirrel]

i'll try to answer the question. to answer it properly in how i understand things best and how i have observed things in my training, i need to divide each of the applications of qi in fighting into two categories (usually they are both deemed jin, but i need more of a division to explain each). i'm just making up these terms on the fly, but here goes: internal qi effects and external qi effects.

internal qi effects: this is the jin as in the wuxing of xingyiquan and the bagua of taijiquan and baguazhang. it uses form (bones, ligaments, tendons, and muscles - especially tendons) and intention to move qi inside the body. really, all movements have qi in them to be able to execute the movements, obviously. to have real substantial power, though, using the designated jins from your system should take anywhere from six months to a year under clear instruction.

external qi effects: stuff like explosive power and sensing power. it is natural progression from internal qi effects, and will happen after you have enough qi for you to be able to sense and control that can extend out of the body. it is simply different manifestations of interaction with your external surroundings, stemming from internal jin. this relies on a few things. they are how much qi you have, how well you can use it, and the conductivity of the paths it travels on (low resistance is achieved by frequent practice). i would say that this varies greatly, and is really something that you just kind of break through to. i would say one to two years after you achieve the internal qi effects.

i wouldn't expect much out of most people, though, because they are often so caught up in philosophy and have read so many books that they don't know qi when they feel it. they don't understand it, because earlier they have misinterpreted the things they have read, so they think that there are contradictions in their practice. often, people go on like this for quite awhile. topics like using muscles and tendons to transport qi are not understood, and often rejected because people don't understand them, as is the relationship and gradient of using the yi and using the form to move qi. because these topics are not reconciled, they have difficulty progressing. with these difficulties (not to mention poor instruction that is usually given), it is a wonder that people comprehend internal qi effects at it's foundational level in their lifetimes, rather than in a few short months like it should be.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi there!

quick question when you used chi in the sparring and your fights, what happened to your opponent?

could have you dont the same without combat chi?

its a serious question...:D

FT

[bamboo_ leaf]

PlasticSquirrel,

Nice post. I agree. Some basic misunderstandings that cannot be cleared in this medium.



fiercest tiger,

I would rate my understanding as very basic to those that I have experience with in TC.

So my wording and understanding my also be basic to some of the people here.

I don’t know what “combat chi “ is. I do know that when working awhile back with one of my mantis friends, I neutralized his attack and made both of his feet leave the ground as he tried to retreat. i caught his hand so he wouldn't hit the wall we where by.

I have had people that I knew try to do things to me and they end up falling down or getting thrown out by their force.. For me TC is a very different art from those that I have worked with and others that I have met.

This doesn’t mean that I can’t get dusted, (been there) or while playing push hands in the park I haven’t been pushed very hard out (also been there) :( it means that I have personally reached an understanding with an art that I feel I have come to know and have some small knowledge to share.

I have no intent of hurting anyone. Any attack is a sign of being unbalanced, If your unable to change and maintain your own balance then your TC will not work. If you can change and understand force then you can do what you want using their force.


As to not having this or not using it. Mmmm I don’t think I could not do it. It would be counter instinctive.

My old way was what ever I hit I would kill it / arm/leg/body/ head/ this is not my way now. I would say my way now really depends on what the other dose.

again its the person not the art / differnt arts open differnt doors
depends on what you want :)

[fiercest tiger]

ive never heard of combat chi until this thread ..lol

thanks for the answer!

:D

[Esteban]

Hmmm,

I don't know if it's related, but

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hchoy/ironcrotch.htm

but, you guys aren't talking about this, are you?


Esteban

[maoshan]

First,
Let’s get this straight there is no such thing as combat chi. it was a pun. I was referring to those that think that all they have to do is relax and let the Chi do the work. But before I get deep.

Beaudasious
What you wrote is the absolute truth.

Justa Man
In my experience, I’ve come across a lot of different Chi-Gongs for TC. The most popular ones are of the soft or Yin aspects that are employed in modern TC. Their Hard Chi-Gongs That I’ve read about and read only, that are not used anymore. Such as the stone ball for the arms, which is used on a concave table and one for the legs in which the ball is rolled around clockwise and counter.
There is also the fast form that Chen style retained to train the Fa-Jing. Yang Cheng Fu Took out that aspect in teaching the public in order to keep the secrets. The truth of this can be seen in the Yang Ban Hao style. Which is much more combat orientated than YCF’s style.
But understand this also; I’m positive that most of the teachers kept the deep training methods to themselves. The gape between then and now is too great.
Here’s a method for you. Let’s take the universal post posture.
In general when you start a TC class, you take this posture relatively high and told to relax. What would happen if you sunk deeper, Not quit MaBu but somewhat just above. It’s harder to do but the achievement will be greater at the end of the hundred days.
This method is for beginners in the martial arts.
If you’ve had some time in another style, the higher stance makes sense because you have to learn to relax.


No_Know
[So, the ch'i is conducted to? when doing the t'ai chi ch'uan form.]
What are you saying here?
As to the second part of what your saying:
The two people are equal in every thing as far as the training is concerned, except using the tree methods. The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose. With or without a good teacher the result would be the same. If both are training the sensitivity with the same intensity with the exception of the tree…
Come on you figure it out.

Fiercest Tiger
Again, it was a pun. And I agree with you on this point. Skill.
Which takes years of dedicated practice. Something that most that post on this forum lack. This is why TBT and myself take no shorts from any one. A few Non-believers and dreamers have come to but it to the test and left (or layed there), knowing that we’re not Internet warriors. We put the time in and are still putting the time in.
The internal is extremely hard to learn because of so many factors that have to be considered beyond the external aspects. It’s truly blood sweat and tears. I met too few that train that way. Get on the net and all of a sudden everyone trains this way. BU!!$H!T!

Count
Is that to imply that chi Kung exercises have more to do with conditioning and muscles than the forms? Or are we talking about another kind of training?

Both. As I said earlier, there are Wai Gongs and various methods of training aimed at the more external side of Internal training. My question is, is anyone training in them at all? With the dedication needed to succeed? And raise the level of the art here in the west.
The next few years will tell.

Bamboo_leaf
Yours is the response I respected most. But I disagree with you on one point. you say:

First I have had training in:

Lama hop gar.
Plum flower mantis
7* mantis

This gave you a perspective most don’t have. Your mindset was preset. Like I said I agree with you, the letting go aspect is the toughest thing to do.
But your confidence to let go came from your previous experience.

But look my point is ultimately.
It takes hard work over a substantial amount of time to be proficient in the internal.

Peace
Maoshan

[blacktaoist]

Bamboo Leaf write:this impact condition that BT talks about is irrelevant. You don’t need it.

Man I hear Tai Chi people like you make that misleading statement all the time. I don't care what style of Tai Chi you practice if you have no real conditioning and impact training there is no why in hell you last long in a fight with a real fighter.

$hit most Tai Chi guys can't even take a fist or palm strike to the body because they are not condition to take full-contact fighting.

Why?" because they are dream training with no real practical training established."

My opinions come from my own experience not from books." I train with many Internal masters in the U.S.A. and in China, and every Teacher I learn from had Conditioning training, Even Tai Chi. so for you to write and say impact Condition is Irrelevant, in my opinion is Bull $hit."


the hard i talk of is the hardness of letting go.

A person can let go all they want, but if they are not skill in the right fighting method. and fight a real Martial Artist, The only thing they will be letting go of is they life."


Shen, YI, CHI, for me these are the cornerstones of my training and understanding.

If you ever come to new York I love To met up with you and see with my own two eyes, you stop me utilizing just Shen, YI, ChI with out any kind of conditioning training. Like I said before people love to talk a good game.


The TC people that I have met in SF are very real with their art. They will and can hurt you if they want to.
To think otherwise is a mistake.

So can I." If you think I'm just talking $hit that can be a very big mistake. Like I said before if a tai chi practitioner is not condition for fighting he his good as dead in my book. but you or any of your tc people in SF ever come to New York I will welcome you with open plams, because I think otherwise. I love to see a tai chi person stop my Bagua plams with just chi and no real training. This I have to see."


haveing said this, it's always the person and their understanding of their art that makes it real.

Any person can learn to understand any art. Being practical with yourself is what makes a person martial art real."

Count write:The fight you mentioned (twice) happened more than 44 years ago (the year I was born, actually).

Count Who cares if it happened 44 years or even a 100 years ago, the bottom line is they got beatdown "KNOCKOUT" Where was they Shen, YI or Chi then?

I will say this, he used Baji not tai chi,

Count I know who the guy is and I have been to MR. Su Yu web site where the information is. I'm a fighter so I How to know things about other fighters.


(If you are of a mind to read some theory)

I have over a 100 books on all kinds of Martial art Theory internal and external, and anybody that knows me will tell you I'm always reading and trying new things to enhance my skills.

The only beef I have with people is , people that talk all Theory but can't utilize it in a practical way.

peace

[blacktaoist]

Bamboo leaf, dont take my statements the wrong way. I'm a very practical mind person when it comes to martial arts. So if a person say they can utilize tai chi with just chi I have to see That $hit with my own to eyes and feel this chi power you are talking about.

People can lie, but my own body and two eyes will never lie to me."
Peace

[bamboo_ leaf]

Wow so much anger,

As I’ve said before I’m not here to prove anything to anybody only to share a point that I have arrived at in my own training.

I have tried to get people from here and other forums to meet up with and exchange some ideas so far I have only met a couple.

Anyway, conditioning. First (again) :)

When I was playing hop gar. As you may know it’s a long range style. Having iron forearms is a big plus. Also being able to withstand hitting is also a big plus. The teachers at that time seemed to really enjoy (helping?) us to acquire those attributes.
After a run we would come back sit for 20min and then get helped by the teachers before our training even started.

I met my first mantis teacher in Korea after being hit by his student that I didn’t see move.
I was looking for some long arm but found it instead.

The first week in my TC class in HI, I asked if this stuff would really work, and was bounced off a wall by one of the older students.

Now we come back to conditioning.

I think conditioning depends on what you want to condition your self for, if it’s the current ring type of fighting then you need to be able to have very good endurance among many other things.

If its as you say “fighting” mmm I don’t know my kung fu includes brick fu, chair fu, anything that I can use fu. I’m from the city the few fights that I have seen and been in had no rules. Run fu works well too!!!


My point is that TC is supposed to be able to swallow and spit, what I have found is that if I make my body like a little tank then my tendency is to use force against force. Why would I need to develop such ting jin (listening) skills if I don’t need it.

Where I push in the park if you use force you can get hurt by your own force. Seen it, felt it, know it.

So I never say that I’m some TC badass or something only that this is what I have come to believe. I have met to many TC people who don’t understand force and how to neutralize it. They use force, speed or some type of tech. this is not what I’m looking for.

If having an iron body was such a skill why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

Train to your level of usage, but know your ability. Many don’t.

test it until it works, and if it dosn't (och!! damm that hurt) find out why. keep training until you can do it or find another art that you understand.

hey this is only a BBS, just here to share and offer some views

peace :)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Black Taoist, there are times when I feel that you overstate the poor abilities of internal stylists. Its not that I don't agree that most of what exists is crap, but I personally prefer to focus on who and what is good in the internals. I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard? Peace.

That being said I agree with you totally on the issue of conditioning and training methodology. Its all very good to "swallow and spit," but what if your opponent is subtle as well? Its not enough for Taiji stylists to think that they will only face low-level Shaolin guys. Its good to know how to let force land on a cloud, but sometimes steel is more appropriate.

My teacher, Eric Tuttle, has worked with some first class Muy Tai guys in Ontario and they don't know what to do with him. Their devastating cut kicks bounce off his legs and they scream when they taste his "wind sweeps the cobblestones." Usually he says he just touches them and "sticks" them in place. I know what he means by this because I have felt him load up my frame with a touch that leaves me virtually frozen in place. He's "got the Qi."

As for the earlier comments about people not directly answering the thread, I think that the issue of just what the question was begged for some clarification at first. Here many use the term Qi very loosely and with a vagueness that borders on arcane.

Many good posts here.

[Justa Man]

but BT, i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.
like all that training of thrusting palms into hot pebbles or sand or striking trees. that's all good for skills now, but when old man stage comes, doesn't that lead to crippled hands or damaged nerves?
it seems to me that this kind of training is all good for reaching higher fighting levels, but worse, overall, on the body.
any thoughts (from anyone)?

maoshan,
thanks for addressing my previous post. no one else paid it mind. the stuff you spoke of seems to build chi sensation in the body. but what kind of exercises build your actual chi? or did i read what you wrote wrong? will doing such different chi gungs as you mentioned build more chi in my body, or will they just build more chi feelings (sensations....tingling hands, swelling feeling, etc)?


for example
say i've lead a life of abusing my body....drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. i take up the internal arts and drop all bad habits. now, i'm doing all this chi gung and i feel all types of sensations...tingling, heat, feeling like i'm covered by a blanket, etc. but i have a low level of chi in my bank to start out with from the abuse i gave my body. so the chi that i am working with isn't very much. it's like i took a rubber band and stretched it really far. what exercises give me more rubber band to work with? do you catch my meaning? what gives me more chi to work with in chi gung?
thanks for helping me understand man.

[blacktaoist]

{Wow so much anger,

I have no anger. I'm just telling you my opinion, and where I stand.



{If its as you say “fighting” mmm I don’t know my kung fu includes brick fu, chair fu, anything that I can use fu. I’m from the city the few fights that I have seen and been in had no rules. Run fu works well too!!!


Where in any of my statements I talk about rules. Fighting is fighting where I'm from. Noboby cares about if you know Tai Chi . pushhands, Chi or whatever." Bottom line is, you better know how to use it. There are no rules in any real fight no matter where a person is from. And Yes I had to utilize Run Fu a few times in my Life. I'm no master. "



{My point is that TC is supposed to be able to swallow and spit, what I have found is that if I make my body like a little tank then my tendency is to use force against force. Why would I need to develop such ting jin (listening) skills if I don’t need it.

Thats your opinion,and you have a right to your belief. But I stand by my viewpoints. Most tai Chi practitioners can't fight." Intill someone prove me wrong I stand by opinion.



{As I’ve said before I’m not here to prove anything to anybody only to share a point that I have arrived at in my own training


I never ask you to prove anything I just welcome you to met up with me in New York so I can see you utilize this Chi you are talking about. Thats all no beef."



{ Where I push in the park if you use force you can get hurt by your own force. Seen it, felt it, know it


You can't hurt a person if you can't detected they force. And Who to say Your opponent is going to use all yang." I know I'm not."



{The first week in my TC class in HI, I asked if this stuff would really work, and was bounced off a wall by one of the older students.

Maybe you need to develop Root? But Every New student get Bounced nothing esoteric about it in any way. A normal thing when a person don't know the Tai Chi game." :) "RELAXATION."

{If having an iron body was such a skill why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

I never said anything about Iron body skill. I live in the real world. Where a person have to train for real. Real fights have real full contact. There are many ways of handing out punishment to your opponent and only two ways of taking it, badly or like a pro. I think I like to take it like a pro." Conditioning in my mind have nothing to do with any Iron body.

but have to do with absorbing some impact. Every real fighter knows you will get hit in a fight. And If you are not use to absorbing some punishment then you are good as dead, and thats the genuine true. No Chi kung or Pushhands is going to save your ass."



{why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

Answer: 1. DISCIPLINE -BUILDING STRENGTH WITH AWARENESS(YI) NOTHING MORE.


{Train to your level of usage, but know your ability. Many don’t.

I know my Ability, and many in the so-called internal are not up to my ability.

[test it until it works, and if it dosn't (och!! damm that hurt) find out why. keep training until you can do it or find another art that you understand.

Been there did that with many internal teachers, I know the true way of internal Training. And I understand There is no mystical and invisible power. Chi is practical practice, not some mystical chi bull$hit.




{hey this is only a BBS, just here to share and offer some views

I feel the same way, but I going to be Practical with my views.


peace. :cool:

[fiercest tiger]

what happened to good structure, and body alignment, rooting?

in my style chi is only that CHI! I think many internal people over use this word and make it all mystical thinking they can do amazing feats.

we call luk ging lup hup using mind, chi, breathe, body alignment for power. if the structure is good and you have good timing you can knockout someone with a good jab! chi flows when you have luk ging in ykm perfect body alignment, does the internal styles use this method?

dont make chi mystical, its all around us it flows when everything is aligned with breath,mind and body.:)

[blacktaoist]

Kevien WallBridge:I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard? Peace.

If somebody ask me a question, I'm going to tell them the genuine truth. My statements have nothing to do with standard..... but most so- called internal fighters I met had nothing. That have a lot to do with standard thats just the truth and facts nothing more. $hit *I train with many masters in New York china town that will put me on my ass in no time. So my standard means alot to Me in a way. If a person can't live up to what they say they can do in the internal Martial arts then they skills are false.



Just A Man:but BT, i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.

If you don't have the right knowledge on how to condition any body can hurt themself. $hit people can get hurt and deaden they nerve endings from practicing Chi Kung or the Tai Chi Form wrong. So whats your point?


Bottom line, any can of practice can injurie themself if they don't know what they are doing.


peace.

[swmngdragn]

Hi, gents. :)

Chi is just a byproduct of *correct* practice/training, structure, mechanics, etc.... You don't train with the goal in mind to "mystically" bounce people, or whatever else. The problem in todays CMA's, in general, is the lack of correct training practices, or time, or attitude, the computer, television, family, etc... There're a myriad reasons why people can't/won't train correctly to achieve the desired results. This all boils down to desire to achieve the results wanted, and correct teaching/learning.


Big problem is that there're *very* few teachers who even have a piece of the puzzle, and those are hard to find. Let alone find a teacher who has a realistic, systematic approach to the subject, *and* has the entire puzzle worked out. *Those* are even fewer, and harder to find.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think many people don’t believe things because they haven’t run into it yet. :)

It’s my experience that these things change as your ideas change based on your exposer to different people. People follow what they believe in. I follow this, it works for me.

Nothing is better

I also haven’t met to many TC people either who can really do it. Really using softness to overcome the hard. The ones that can really do it, it is very, very differnt from most of what i read here.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Its all very good to "swallow and spit," but what if your opponent is subtle as well? Its not enough for Taiji stylists to think that they will only face low-level Shaolin guys. Its good to know how to let force land on a cloud, but sometimes steel is more appropriate”

then train more, become softer. If this is what you follow.

My point on most of this is that to really be able to use it you have to make some fundamental changes in your thinking. Most people are not really willing to let go.

I would say the steel that you talk of is the ability to change. Not if I take your meaning the ability to issue force against force.

No it’s not easy. Even among many TC players this is not an easy thing to do judging by many of the postings here. It takes time.

these are things that i have found and am working on in my own training and understanding. i think every one has to find there own truth. this is mine.

[maoshan]

Kevin W.
First I'd like to clearify this.

[I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard?]

That's one of the reasons that we post with such aggression sometimes. The standard that most think is good is crap in view of the true martial arts. We do have high standards. Why? what's the point in half @$$ing it. If it's for health that you train, Fine.
but if it's the martial arts that you claim that you want you have to embrace it like a lover. most of the people that TBT and myself have met, that claimed this and that and really felt that they were good, have been given that rude awakening that those that delude themselves fear.

The standard of Martial arts in general in the west is $hit. All of our teachers have told us so. I've seen it myself in comparing
a student of TC who trained in China for 3yrs compared to a guy who trained for over 10. You would have thought it was reverced.

Our teachers have taken us out side of the class so that they could teach us properly. Didn't you know that most good teachers
change thier curriculum to teach in the west? Why? because most are lazy and or just can't take it. One of our goals is to raise the standard. other than that ..hang it up

JustaMan.

[i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.]

Have you ever heard of the "Lohan Patting Method"?
There are many Qi-Gongs that are conditioning methods and as far as hurting your internal to the point that when you are old your body is broke down, that's just incorrect training. besides it's done in conjuction with herbs that help maintain the body's balance.

Now for the question that you asked me:
How do you have a Chi feeling with out it being actual Chi? I've never experianced that.

[will doing such different chi gungs as you mentioned build more chi in my body, or will they just build more chi feelings (sensations....tingling hands, swelling feeling, etc)?]

In truth it will build more. True Chi Kung always gives you confermations. If you've been doing a method and you have no sensation what so ever your doing it wrong. Chi is the commander of the Blood. Where ever the focus there is going to be a sensation.

As for your example:
What will help bring back more Chi?
A proper balanced Diet, An even state of mind, Tonic herbs and standing post.
Diligent work will see the effects in 100 days.

Fiercest Tiger

[what happened to good structure, and body alignment, rooting?
perfect body alignment, does the internal styles use this method?]

This the most fundamental as pect of the training. If it does not exist, then your not an Internal Boxer. Without alignment, Your energy neither flow nor can you root.

Swmngdragn
tuff responce

Peace
Maoshan

[Sam Wiley]

You know, unlike the guy from , Vision Quest some of us Taijiquan practitioners neither spit nor swallow.;)

Personally, I think the majority of Taiji practitioners need to be more aggressive. You cannot be totally soft or totally passive and expect to win a fight.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think people find what they want. :)
The people that I have met where very soft and yet could easily send you flying or break something. All done for the most part with your own force.

“You cannot be totally soft or totally passive and expect to win a fight.”

If your training gets so far off the track, you may be a good “fighter” but is it the real TC skill that many talk about? To be soft is not passive, but it’s also not active either.

[Sam Wiley]

Anybody can uproot people and send them flying or bouncing off walls, but it is not necessarily internal force or true skill. With proper body mechanics and proper positioning and from the proper angle, you could send someone flying across the rooms or bouncing off a wall with minimum effort, but these things are purely physical and not indicative of true internal power. I can pull someone past me and send them flying across the room with minimum physical effort and yet no internal power. I can lift someone off their feet with a push and send them flying, as well, but without using true internal power.

On the other hand, I can use true internal power and not move the opponent more than a few inches, and yet deliver a shockwave inside his body.

I'm not bragging about anything, I'm just saying that sending people flying great distances is not always the best indicator of internal power.

Having used what I have learned in real fights, I can say that it looked only vaguely similar to the training methods, forms, etc, that I have learned. I do not expect the way I fight to look like a push hands session, nor do I think others should view a fight with, for instance a Taiji practitioner as one of the contestants, and expect the Taiji man's movements to look like he was practicing push hands or a form on the other person.

Learning to fight with martial arts involves two separate areas. The first is learning to use a martial art as a martial art, and this is largely a sport usage, which is supposed to look like a martial art anyway because you are trying to use techniques to fight with. The second is learning to actually fight, and your martial art is a stepping stone into this area, where when you fight you are not doing so for sportive means nor are your movements going to be easily recognizable as any particular martial art. The public rarely hears about the second area, as they are bombarded with movies and sorry television shows that keep their attention on the first area, as well as "realistic" fight events that are sport and not reality. While there is nothing wrong with learning to fight in a ring or learning to fight and make it look like a martial art is being used, it is different and should be kept separate from learning to use a martial art to learn to fight (for self-defense for instance).

On a slightly related note, if someone already knows how to fight, why would they be taking a martial art? Why would they need one?

I remember reading portions of some of the modern "classics" of Taiji that talk of sending the opponent "straight to hell" and not across the room. Some of the other classics speak specifically of breaking limbs and things like that. Neither of these things have anything to do with throwing, pushing or pulling people across rooms or whatever, though they have to do with skill. But these things cannot be accomplished if you are never aggressive or are not occasionally "hard."

Most of the people I hear or read speaking of "the real Taiji skill" are intellectually postulating on something they have never physically experienced or seen, though they might think they have. This is the reason, as has been stated in this thread, that some people have to see this "skill" before they will believe it exists. In the end, Taiji is a tool for learning to fight, and it is the way, the method, not necessarily the technique or the appearance that is important. Fighting is a simple thing that many think too hard about. The martial arts are there to improve your chances of actually winning by giving you certain advantages.

[Justa Man]

If you don't have the right knowledge on how to condition any body can hurt themself. $hit people can get hurt and deaden they nerve endings from practicing Chi Kung or the Tai Chi Form wrong. So whats your point?
I had no point really. I was just asking for your opinion on what I thought.

Have you ever heard of the "Lohan Patting Method"?
Actually no. But I will look into it. Thanks Maoshan.

[taijiquan_student]

"I remember reading portions of some of the modern "classics" of Taiji that talk of sending the opponent "straight to hell" and not across the room."

Yes, there are many places in the classics which refer to this kind of application--"use strangle holds to block the opponent's circulation", and "use the finger to stab his vital points".

"Neither of these things have anything to do with throwing, pushing or pulling people across rooms or whatever, though they have to do with skill."

These things (pushing, pulling) are also a part of taiji, although definitely not the wisest choice in a life or death confrontation.--"If we are sealed off by our opponent's ward-off, then we must try PULL-DOWN or split". Also see "The Song of Push".

"But these things cannot be accomplished if you are never aggressive or are not occasionally "hard." "

Yes, there is hard in taiji, but not I think in the way you mean. It sounds like you mean occasionaly we should give up being soft and yielding, and use muscle strength to accomplish our goal. Why do I think this? Because you said "occasionaly hard". In taiji, one is always hard AND soft at the same time. You shouldn't think about being hard, however, to accomplish your goal because you will probably end up tensing.--"Taiji in its martial aspect is soft on the outside and hard on the inside....It is not that we deliberately think of hardness, for in reality our minds are on softness."

I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, because I generally agree with what you're saying.

Respectfully,
--t.s.

[fiercest tiger]

why the hell would you bounce someone away when you can jusy hammer there a$$?

bouncing is only leverage and thats all!

:)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Most of the people I hear or read speaking of "the real Taiji skill" are intellectually postulating on something they have never physically experienced or seen, though they might think they have”

ya right.

And you have seen it all.

Read you statement and then think about what it says.

They might or they think they have. Such a closed mind for a teacher. You might as well say that you’re the king of the hill.

If some one has the ability to send you flying it’s because they don’t want to hurt you.
If some one can lock up your arm it also can be broken.
Let me say it real slow, if you have good TC and some one uses force they end up getting hurt by their own force.


“In taiji, one is always hard AND soft at the same time. You shouldn't think about being hard, however, to accomplish your goal because you will probably end up tensing.--"Taiji in its martial aspect is soft on the outside and hard on the inside....It is not that we deliberately think of hardness, for in reality our minds are on softness”

If you are hard on the inside then this is also a mistake, you can be easily followed. Hardness is tension. One aspect of TC is the ability to change with the other.

The higher the ability the less force used, the less force resisted. The idea (and reality for those that can) is not to give anything to the other person unless you want to. They have nothing to push against. (or hit) this is not easy it takes awhile and you must have some one who can really do it to help you to get it.

Why? Because most people cannot really believe or consider this aspect. They will talk about leverage, killer intent, and real fighting. They refuse to belive because they can't do it and haven't met anyone who can.

i can understand this.



“I can pull someone past me and send them flying across the room with minimum physical effort and yet no internal power. I can lift someone off their feet with a push and send them flying, as well, but without using true internal power”

Sam, read “ I” in all of your descriptions, i thought the idea was to stick, follow, release. to do these things you must have some idea or ability of "ting jin" i don't quite understand what is "true internal power"

for the most part i only use the others power.

hey almost new year, have a good one all.
As BT said i guess sooner or later we just have to meet, hopfully to share and learn from each other.

luck in training :)

[No_Know]

"No_Know
[So, the ch'i is conducted to? when doing the t'ai chi ch'uan form.]
What are you saying here? "

Conducted refers to, came from somewhere and went through something then went somewhere. The poster claimed qi as conducted. I asked to where is it conducted.

"As to the second part of what your saying:
The two people are equal in every thing as far as the training is concerned, except using the tree methods. "

They both have the same style of slow form and pushhands , but because one did tree training too, that one spent Less time as the other at slow forms or Push hands. Also, if there is any qi to T'ai Chi Ch'uan the tree training might block or somehow inhibit the stereotypical flowing of qi as the arms might get naturally tense with the tree training.

"The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose."

You are wrong. Since T'ai Chi Ch'uan nullifies, having tougher arms/hands doesn't benefit you against T'ai Chi Ch'uan applied appropriately.

" With or without a good teacher the result would be the same. If both are training the sensitivity with the same intensity with the exception of the tree… "

There are teachers on these forums, from sifus to masters, at least. Some have more skill at teaching than the others. Even if they had the same Skill level they have differing Experience levels. The Experience of the teacher Could very well make for different results than you seem to think. Different people learn from differnt ways.~ The ways they are taught they might not be getting it. As I've pointed out by stating, the tree traing/conditioning is not a significant factor when used in a fight of two T'ai Chi Ch'uan people. With damage capability of the tree training in a force on force fight nuetralized by appropriate use of T'ai Chi Ch'uan principles, the winner is whoever uses those principles most appropriately in that fight on that day at that moment in that place.~

"Come on you figure it out. "

Hopefully, you can see that I DID figure it out.

[Sam Wiley]

While I have not seen everything, I do not speak as if I have. On the other hand, I have heard a lot of baloney from people that makes me want to both laugh and vomit at the same time. It is quite obvious what is bull and what is not, and I am sorry if some cannot handle when someone says they smell bull in another's statement.

I know exactly what happens when someone uses force against me and I use what little I have learned so far to defend against it, having injured training partners in the past before I learned some control, and also having several permanent and painful injuries myself as reminders of what happens when too much force is used on the other end, including having one of my front teeth broken out when I tried to force a technique.

What I am saying is that these circus tricks, such as launching someone across a room, are not indicators of true skill. While it is true that someone with superior skill may not wish to hurt a person and will therefore send that person flying with a throw, that is not a measure of how much skill they have, simply that they can send the person flying in response to an attack. What I am saying is that tricks like that are easy, so easy to accomplish by anyone with a simple knowledge of physics or with sufficient physical strength, and therefore are not true indicators of whether someone possesses true skill.

To send someone flying across the room with a push or a pull does not require ting jing or any other kind of skill.

Taijiquan Student,
Several of the terms for Taiji skills or techniques are not directly translatable. Some have simply been translated incorrectly. There are no pushes or pulls in Taijiquan except at the very basest level. "Push" is the name of a posture, while "press" is the name of the technique generally associated with it. Pushing is not a skill in Taiji. The case is similar with "pull down" the character for which is sometimes translated as "pluck." Pulling is not a skill in Taiji. As yet another example, "press" would be more correctly translated as "squeeze." Please note that I did not say to use more muscular strength. What I said was that Taiji practitioners should be more aggressive and harder. I realize that many associate hardness with muscular strength in regards to Taiji, but I assure you that I did not mean it that way.

Bamboo Leaf,
There are several members of this board I would love to meet and train with and learn from as well. Maybe one day we will be able to meet and trade knowledge. One of the things I would love to discuss is sticking, adhering and following. Kind of difficult to write about it, much easier to demonstrate.

[taijiquan_student]

Sam...

Ni hui shuo hanyu ma? Wo hui yidianr zhongwen, danshi wo shuo de bu hao. Ni de taijiquan laoshi shi shenme? Ni lian shenme jia? Suo yi, ni hui bu hui shuo?

I was just wondering if you speak chinese, seeing as you know so much about the meanings of the characters for the techniques of taijiquan. (sorry if I seem overly rude, but I just want to know if you should be basing some of your ideas of what should be in taijiquan upon the meanings of ther chinese words.)

I agree that pushing should not be a skill to use when applying taiji in a martial situation (generally), what do you mean by "that is not a measure of how much skill they have, simply that they can send the person flying in response to an attack." Wouldn't you say that if someone is attacked, and they end up sending the attacker flying across the room, that they have some skill?

Also, could you please describe what you mean by "hard"? I know now you don't mean muscle-strength, but I'm still not sure I get exactly what you mean.

Respectfully,
--t.s.

[friday]

hi I don't practice any tai chi or hsing yi etc internal arts
but i have practiced pak hok pai for 6 years. i have tried doing some seated meditation for chi
in Pak Hok pai i have also practiced a particular movement over and over. on the first time i was able to carry out this technique perfectly i was able to sense chi. the feeling is hard to describe but u know it when it happens. this is only a very basic one i think but it has helped me develop my sense of chi. nowadays when i do adominal breathing i can sense chi flowing out of my hands or being sucked in from the air around my hands.
when i put my palms close together i can also sense my chi and genearte heat between them that is diff from normal
i don't want to sound like i m nuts lol but it is true.
in pak hok pai there are also a number of forms where like tai chi they are performed slowly , in these forms also chi is developed and used. each technique has combat applications.

:)

[PlasticSquirrel]

sam is good. i wish i had his experiences, minus the teeth popping out bit, of course...

he's right, though, that you can bounce people away a good distance if you have the right control of your body, and if conditions are favorable. taijiquan is just reputed for it because it has many movements that utilize this sort of move, and not because it makes practitioners super strong or anything. taijiquan is somewhat centered around using small force to overcome a much stronger enemy. this is often done by bouncing him away. structure and timing are the keys in this matter. doing other things like tensing the muscles around the joints may help, as will slightly tensing to move qi to that area to energize the muscles, but i agree with sam that it is a very physical skill that anyone can learn.

sam is also correct in that taijiquan practitioners need more than the blunt attacks that it has been used for so often in this century. while they may bounce an attacker away, or throw him this way or that, in a real fight that is a dangerous thing unless you have a lot of skill. damaging movements are really what win a fight, and in order to do anything with those, you need to actually fight. fighting isn't romantic or fun. you will always be nervous, have adrenaline, and have the chance to injure yourself. while it may seem at first to be neat, i would not advise fighting. i have seen a lot of them in the short time i've been around, and while i love watching them, those people fighting aren't having fun. i'm glad i have been in very few fights. what if somewhat slips a pipe out of their coat, or pulls a knife? sparring is really what people need to practice. the more experience, the less controlled the sparring should be, because the more competently they will be able to handle themselves against eachother, and the closer to real world danger it is.

i looked at a preview thing on yang jwingming's site for a book of translations of yang banhou's classics. as we all know, yang banhou was a pretty tough guy. i like his approach, because he was sophisticated, but still very harsh. here are some quotes from it:

"the right heel kick is used to tread soft ribs."
"the technique of attacking the ears with the fists is effective."
"turn the body and kick with the heel is aiming at the knee cap."
"raising up the knee to attack the vital place (groin)"... "it is hard to show mercy."
"when cross leg is used, the soft bone (sternum) will be broken."

it's neat that someone was able to translate over 40 of yang banhou's classics. all you taijiquan guys out there should get the book. it's neat to see insight from famous taijiquan fighters back in the days when it was famous for it's fighting.

[bamboo_ leaf]

www.geocities.com/mantiscave

To Sam and all the rest.
Some of you use real names, some have web sites.

I know that some might not understand what I say. This is a point that I have arrived at, painfully I might add. When we talk of TC I can see it’s very hard. There are things that people can have done to them but can’t do, and there are people who understand but can’t do.

I would say that I fall into having done and relearning to do. My understanding at this point is changing, still very much a beginner in this art.

I wanted to share some of it because I felt it might help clear what I would say are misunderstandings about TC that i read about.

Anything that I write or say publicly I stand by. It’s not my intent to change a mind or defend something only offer hopefully another viewpoint.

We are talking about using TC for fighting but let me ask you, are you really sung, (relaxed) are you ?



Any way if you go to this site it will show me listed under one of my teachers, his life reads like a MA novel. very, very real.

In the plum flower branch. The title is not important he is my teacher / i am his student that is all. it is a point that I have come from.

My given name is Dalton E. Davis, most people call me David.
I’m not sure about this as I said I wanted those that I have come to know and respect to also know a little about me.

i started my TC training in the early 80s, now its all i do.


peace :)

[maoshan]

Alright before I start.

Sam,
Good post, I'ts good to see you in the forum.

Now
No_know,

I can see that you DON'T KNOW!
I said TC is a conductor, not a builder.
Chi moves through the relaxed body, tension hinders the flow.
Common knowledge.
Martial jing or power is aquierd through work. The slow form and push hands by itself will not develop this. If it was true, than why did Yang Cheng Fu practice (if I remember right) "Play the guitar
and Replulse the Monkey" with a 40 pound weight attached to his index finger by a string. this is the modern day master that created the form that most follow today( Yang style has the largest following). You lack true martial experiance which leads me to think that either the books that you are getting your info from are the new age type(the older books have more info on how the masters themselves trained) or your teacher(if he's good) has not revealed such training methods to you because it would hinder your progress because your already too tense and harder training would make a bad situation worse.
If your true to the game, you need to do a lot more research.

As to the second part,
and this really shows your inexperiance,

How do you come to the conclusion that because of the tree training that he had to practice the push hands less?
How do you know that I'm talking about banging on the trees?
There are more methods for using a tree than just banging on.
the taoist Bear method is just one.
Now as to actually banging and causing damage or causing tension, there's a method. You just don't go swingging like a fool.
Hit a tree wrong once and you'll know exactly what Im mean.

["The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose."

You are wrong. Since T'ai Chi Ch'uan nullifies, having tougher arms/hands doesn't benefit you against T'ai Chi Ch'uan applied appropriately.]

No, your wrong.
If I have more power with the same degree of sensitivity as you,
YOU WILL LOSE.
If only for the fact that my root is going to be stronger than yours because of the tree training. My stronger root and sensitive hands allow me to do things you can't with out violating the principles.

Your piont about no 2 people being the same in terms of understanding is correct. but if you have a competant teacher,
he can ajust to each individual. Surly you've seen people that were even at push hands.

[As I've pointed out by stating, the tree traing/conditioning is not a significant factor when used in a fight of two T'ai Chi Ch'uan people. With damage capability of the tree training in a force on force fight nuetralized by appropriate use of T'ai Chi Ch'uan principles, the winner is whoever uses those principles most appropriately in that fight on that day at that moment in that place.~ ]



There's an old saying that, "The External, as they progress,they lean toward the soft, and the Internal leads to the hard.
Simply making this statement "day, moment, place" is any fight.
Also it's avoiding the point being made.
It's like Sam said (paraphrasing) I don't have to bounce you against a wall to prove my point. Because just like Sam again,
My strikes don't back you up, You just drop.
This is the Internal and this is what we're talking about.

Your book theory is alright for the health nuts, but against some one like me....
You have a problem.
Look, I know your style better than you do and thats bad considering it's not my specialty. Do more research and train alot harder. one day you might get a glance of what I'm talking about.



[Hopefully, you can see that I DID figure it out.]

NO. You didn't.

[No_Know]

"How do you come to the conclusion that because of the tree training that he had to practice the push hands less? "


"Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win? "

No conclusion, they both trained for a year's time. One did two things. One did three things. The one who did tree methods would have spent less at at least one of the two things the other person was also doing.

"I can see that you DON'T KNOW!
I said TC is a conductor, not a builder.
Chi moves through the relaxed body, tension hinders the flow.
Common knowledge. "

Yet, you still haven't said to where it's conducted.

"Martial jing or power is aquierd through work. The slow form and push hands by itself will not develop this. If it was true, than why did Yang Cheng Fu practice (if I remember right) "Play the guitar
and Replulse the Monkey" with a 40 pound weight attached to his index finger by a string. this is the modern day master that created the form that most follow today( Yang style has the largest following)."

"Play the Guitar" and "Repulse the Monkey" are techniques in the forms. They for intents and purposes here count as form. Saying that a well known--famous, martial artist ( a great man) trained his form is still saying that, part of his being great came from doing Form.

"How do you come to the conclusion that because of the tree training that he had to practice the push hands less? How do you know that I'm talking about banging on the trees? "

You mentioned conditioning which suggests the hitting the tree. Hitting the tree does not suggest pushing hands with the tree.

"There are more methods for using a tree than just banging on.
the taoist Bear method is just one."

Yet with hitting methods being common with trees, you did not specify. It is acceptable to take what you;re saying at the more common understanding of tree methods.



" No, your wrong.
If I have more power with the same degree of sensitivity as you,
YOU WILL LOSE. "

T'ai Chi Ch'uan absorbs and nullifies power and deflects/redirects~force. You don't seem to be talking about the example now. If I'm appropriate, I would not lose.~

"If only for the fact that my root is going to be stronger than yours because of the tree training. My stronger root and sensitive hands allow me to do things you can't with out violating the principles. "

Because of the tree training It does not seem to be a fact that your root would be better (again you seem to be away from the case mentioned). Different perhaps, but not necessarily better.

"Simply making this statement "day, moment, place" is any fight.
Also it's avoiding the point being made. "

Placed in context, that satement addresses that there is more to your physical~ training to win. No avoiding a point. You might care to mentin what point you have in mind that I supposedly was trying to avoid.

"My strikes don't back you up, You just drop. "

According to you, My conditioning if good enough might not give you the drop me effect.

"This is the Internal and this is what we're talking about. "

"Your book theory is alright for the health nuts, but against some one like me....
You have a problem."

I had a book theory?

"Look, I know your style better than you do and thats bad considering it's not my specialty. Do more research and train alot harder. one day you might get a glance of what I'm talking about. "

You know My Style?

...A glimpse of Nothingness.

[Sam Wiley]

Taijiquan Student,
In answer to your questions, I speak only a little, and my accent is a bit off. I find English monotone to be much easier than multitone Chinese. Is that the problem you have as well? My Taiji teacher is Erle Montaigue, and I practice both the old and new Yang styles of Taiji as well as the Wudang system he teaches. I also practice Chiang style Bagua. So anyway, I guess I speak just enough Chinese. But when it comes to writing, I much prefer English.

But no, I would not say that simply because someone sent the person flying he had some skill. I know people who have never trained in a martial art who can do that with ease. Many people are under the impression that fa-jing (which I understand many here are tired of hearing about) will send someone flying, but it does not. Sure, it will move them a bit, but not great distances, as fa-jing affects the inner workings more than the external frame. If you hit the right spot, the person will simply crumple to the ground, not even moving back.

I have seen some Taiji people demonstrating push hands, for instance, and they yield so greatly that they bend over backwards or let their arm come very close to their chest. Both are wrong, and the way to fix it is to use a little muscle, but just enough to accomplish the goal and no more. (And when I talk about the muscles, I am not talking about the arm muscles.) On the other end of the scale are people who practice push hands and they are practically wrestling they use so much muscle. That's wrong as well.

If you were totally relaxed, you would fall to the floor. If you want to stand, your leg muscles must work a bit. If you want to lift your arm, your arm muscles must work a bit. For self defense, they must work a bit more, but some people are too soft here and do not use enough. You see, Taiji is not a "soft" art, as there is really no such thing. It is loose. You cannot be soft and defend yourself, but you can be loose and defend yourself. These people who are too soft remind me of gelatin, not iron wrapped in cotton.

What I mean by "harder" is more yang in nature. They need to raise more yang energy. They need to be more aggressive, more animal like. I guess this is something else I'd have to show you.

Bamboo Leaf,
I prefer to think of sung as looseness and not relaxation, because of the reason above. But yes, I am sung doing what I'm doing, by any definition. But you're right, it is difficult to write about the internal.

[Nexus]

Sam Wiley has pointed in the right direction. In taiji you are trying to use the least amount of tension necessary to accomplish the task whether it be yielding, pushing hands, or fighting. It is logical that using the least amount of energy to accomplish any task reserves the highest amount of energy for later use.

[taijiquan_student]

Sam...I agree with what you say. However, I will say that there are different types of fa-jing--generally, long energy and short energy. You speak of short energy (not moving the opponent far but causing internal damage and an external shock-like effect), but there is also long energy if it is needed.
I do think that short energy and "internal fajing" is what should be used in self-defense, long energy being mainly/only for demonstrating mechanics in class, not crippling students, etc.
I have ordered a fair number of Erle's videos, and have picked out some useful information, although I sometimes disagree with him.

I think we have virtually the same opinion, it's just so very hard to talk about this sort of this over the internet.

[maoshan]

[The one who did tree methods would have spent less at at least one of the two things the other person was also doing]

How do you come to this conclusion?
A dedeicated practioner would not slack in any of the aspects.
I disagree.

[Yet, you still haven't said to where it's conducted.]

O.K., to clearify this part for you.
Because of the SUNG aspect of TC, you can circulate and thus project better. Thus the term conduct.

["Play the Guitar" and "Repulse the Monkey" are techniques in the forms. They for intents and purposes here count as form. Saying that a well known--famous, martial artist ( a great man) trained his form is still saying that, part of his being great came from doing Form.]

But it's not simply doing the slow form as is being taught. Who do you know that practices this? Who do you know that is teaching this method? You don't.

[You mentioned conditioning which suggests the hitting the tree. Hitting the tree does not suggest pushing hands with the tree.

Your right. Excuse me for not being clear.
Conditioning takes on many forms. I wrote from my experiance.
My bad.

As to the rest of what you've written,
When this post was first written, it was more external vs Internal,
As it progressed it became internal vs internal. As with the true internal most is hidden so the only way to answer the question is to test it. But for it to be a correct assessment the testers would have to be equal in the understanding of thier respective styles or methods(it might be the same style) other than that it seems that we could keep going back and forth with this. and until such a test can be arranged we'll both have our own opinions.

Peace

[wind]

Tai chi training has different stages or levels, each stage has different training method,condintion and weight training should be on the second stage "jing" training. in this stage you should more focus on single "fajing" practice use the single movement from the slow form or the fast form, shaking the spear, ball and using different havey weapons and striking tree with "kao" and "fa", also in this stage you get some chigong training to make your internal stronger to be able to take blows. pushhands and sansou training will be more harder.All tradtional tai chi styles have this stage training also each style has little difference. I think this part training is important for zz zzztaichi to fight. Then next stage is "song gong" then final stage is 'Chi Gong'. So the chi training is the last stage. Nowdays most
taichi people just get into the first stage -doing forms and some push hands, or directly into the third and fourth stage, if you already have strong kungfu from other style you may skip the second stage get into "song" and "chi". if you are pure taichi without such kind training it' hard to win in a fight. that's why some guys practice taichi for long time stll can't fight or beaten by externer styles or shuaijiao. Using Chi to fight- none of great TaiChi master talked about it. Chen zhao kui , son of famous Chen Fa Ke . never belive chi can fight. He once taught students in Shanghai and one of his student was famous expert on "kong Jing" which means empty force and always talking about Chi and hitting people without touch them. So Chen said to him oneday " I will use "kao" on you see if you can use your empty force to countback" So he stiked the guy with "kao" the guy just fall down to the ground several meters away from Chen.

[Sam Wiley]

I've never heard of different types of fa-jing, but that concept is not one I place a lot of faith in. Fa-jing is simply fa-jing, violent and explosive. If someone claims to demonstrate fa-jing on someone and the subject is not hurt, injured, sickened or killed, etc. then it was not fa-jing. The body movement may have been correct, but it was not actual fa-jing. Demonstrating the body mechanics is fine, and understandable doing it that way since no one wants to injure their students, but it is not fa-jing.

The concept of different kinds of jing is fine. P'eng jing, Lu jing, etc, are all fine, and I understand that concept and can see how it is useful in learning. But different types of fa-jing?

[taijiquan_student]

Yes, there are many types of jing, but there are also different ways to fajing. You can use short energy, or long energy. I guess these two would be the broadest categories. I could fajing using what you and Erle are talking about, or I could use longer energy. However, I would only ever use long energy in class, when practising fajing/mechanics, or push hands. Short energy and actual penetrating strikes is what should be used in self-defense. There are different ways to fajing, but I have noticed that Erle tends to stress just that one kind.

One thing I think might be happening is this is just a mix-up of definitions and words. I would say that if some one is bringing jing up from their feet, to the waist, up the body and expressing it in their arms and hands to impose some sort of martial action against the opponent, then that is fajing. Fa means release, jing means, well, every one here knows what jin (actually I think it's technically jin not jing) is. Therefore, I would say any action that releases jin upon the other person is fajing. By this definition, there is more than one way to fajing. Maybe you could tell me your definition of fajing, because if it is that the fajing Erle talks about is the only fajing, I can think of techniques/movements that fall in no category. Please write back. I think it's pretty cool people can have discussions on KFO every now and then that don't end up being flames and trolls and generally disrespectful.

[Sam Wiley]

By your definition, yes, there are more ways than one to fa-jing. However, fa-jing was explained to me in specifics. For a great many physical actions, we must draw power from the earth, which travels up the legs to the waist and spine, and emits from the hands or other peripherals. But by this definition, simply pushing a box across the floor would be considered fa-jing, an action anyone with sufficient resources could accomplish and not an ability gained through hard work or indicative of skill. Also by this definition, simple attacks, such as pushing an opponent, would be considered fa-jing, as could just about any simple physical action requiring us to draw ground power up. This would make the internal arts the same as every other art if there were no difference in the way they moved or issued power. But there is a large difference in both the way of issuing power and the way of movement between the internal and external. While some hold that the "internal" is simply the advanced level of the martial arts, I personally believe that it is a completely different approach altogether. I will admit that I was not present for the invention of all the different martial arts, so at one time in the past, the statement that the internal is just the advanced level of many arts may have been true, but I feel that that is no longer the case.

Anyway, the whole thing about channeling energy from the ground up still happens in Erle's type of fa-jing. Erle, however, places more emphasis on the explosive nature of the movement than many others do.

Which techniques and/or movements do you feel fall into "no category" according to this definition of fa-jing?

[taijiquan_student]

I was thinking, if you said that the only fajing was the kind that Erle mostly talks about (the kind shown on his "Sudden Violence" and dim-mak tapes), then what would you say about press (squeeze)? It is a very different kind of jing than every thing else.

I disagree about the pushing the box scenario. It is HOW you push the box. If you just shove it with your arm then it is not anything. But if you explosively push the box using your waist, while keeping sung and using the taiji principles, then it is fajing. You'd look pretty funny if you moved boxes like this, but it would be taiji-correct. However, it would only be fajing if there was some explosive nature to it. A push with no spring or compression/downward movement (depending on the type of fajing), is not fajing.

I agree about the internal being a totally different approach than the external and having a different way of issuing power and movement.

[fiercest tiger]

I'll try and explain it like this if it makes any sense!

Your standing in a club and someone behind you is smoking a cigarrett and they accidently burn you, you subconscously throw your arm away or around without thought.

This is true ging, all you need to do is tap into this mindset and energy and you have it. Dont make it mystical again guys, taiji may be a nice art but its not as magical as you think. Fajing/ging is exploded from every part of the body at once because the whole body does ging! If the whole body doesnt do it then its not ging you are using external force more of a shoving motion.

You have long energy and short energy both for healing and fighting!

[fiercest tiger]

hi mate,

can you fajing in the air?

also doesnt erle lift off the ground when he does fajing so where is his root?

not starting an argument just interested in what you said about it starts from the earth and ends up at thelimb thats striking. i understand this method. but erle lifts off the ground!!:)

[Sam Wiley]

TS,
I'm not sure what you mean by Ji (squeeze) being different than everything else. It's a spiralling pop, squeezing the elbows and the back's double bow in while contracting the abdominal muscles and twisting the waist. (Again, physical demonstration would be better.) In your form, if you are executing this movement as fa-jing (and provided that you are doing your form on the right side), your hands come down to your leftt side after Double P'eng, then turn over, and the left finger mounts touch the inside of the right radius. Your left hand is yin and your right hand is yang. They change state as you come forward, not before. If they do not change state during the movement, you have a dead push and not a strike.

Somewhere on those tapes is this move done as fa-jing, I am sure. Maybe not on the sudden violence ones, but on the more traditional Taiji ones.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying about the differences between explosive and non-explosive movements, but "long and short" fa-jing still sounds to me like unnecessary categorizations. Why would there be a need for the long if the short was what you needed for fighting? Why train in the other at all?

Fiercest Tiger,
I have that same thing happen more than you know. A girl I used to work with surprised me from behind a while back, and I elbowed her right in the chest. Completely accidental on my part, but she did intentionally sneak up on me and jab me in the ribs, after all. Anyway, yes, Erle's feet often lift off the ground completely, as do mine. If you mean can I fa-jing after having jumped into the air, I can, but I see no need for it. Your feet, though, do not necessarily have to be on the ground for fa-jing. You can perform fa-jing in pretty much any position, even if you have been picked up as in a throw or are wrestling on the ground, so you do not necessarily have to have your feet on the ground. But being rooted doesn't necessarily have to do with having your feet on the ground. For instance, their are exercises within both Taiji and Bagua (qigongs, actually) that teach us to remain stable on only one leg, and during these exercises you can feel the foot in the air being drawn to the ground. It's not muscular fatigue. It actually feels like someone reaches up and grabs your foot and pulls downward on it (but not to the point of dragging it to the ground). Taiji and qigong (well, Taiji IS qigong) help us to develop energy roots. And if, during fa-jing, your feet lift off the ground, those roots are not necessarily severed. It's a bit like how electricity can jump between one pole and another without the poles having to touch.

In any case, the feet are not lifted off the ground on purpose. The feet only come up a centimeter or so because of the explosive nature of the movement. Usually, this is utilized as part of footwork, as a step forward, for instance. As the classics state, if one part of the body moves, the whole should be moving, and the whole body cannot be moving if your feet are not moving.

[No_Know]

"But it's not simply doing the slow form as is being taught. Who do you know that practices this? Who do you know that is teaching this method? You don't. "

It seems not necessarily clear What is not simply doing the slow form as it is being taught.

Then you claim that I don't do the...No!, you are claiming (sarcasming) that I don't Teach...

And, hopefully I do not Know anything.

Very good, some-such, some might say, perhaps.

[prana]

wow. so much verbal-fighting going on in this thread :D
is this emanation of fighting the illusive fighting-qi that you guys speak of ? If so, I dont want any of it :D

[No_Know]

What would you have liked from this thread that isn't here?

Verbal-fighting going on?

[Nexus]

Aren't buddhists known for their verbal fighting and shout matches? Or is that highschool debate teams... hmmm!

- Nexus

[prana]

doh, I cant run nor hide now. Arrgggghhhhhhh !
:D

[taijiquan_student]

Guohen...In your style, how do you generate fajing? I was saying that it comes from the ground because in the taiji classics it says the power is rooted in the feet, goes up to the waist and the back, and then is manifested out through the arms and hands. I guess it could come from your center (if that is what you mean by "center of being"), but generally in my style we try to always come from the ground, regardless of whether you are doing fajing upward or sinking.

[Sam Wiley]

Taijiquan Student,
The power for fa-jing does come from the ground. The classics do not specify that the power for fa-jing comes from any other place, as it says that power in general comes from the ground. According to the classics, power comes from the ground, and is controlled by the waist. For all movements, power must come from the ground, and for all movements, the waist must control them. The waist alone is not the power behind fa-jing, though it is the waist that deals the power out.

It's a bit like trying to play a concert with an electric guitar that is not plugged in. If you liken the waist to an amplifier, then the amplifier is necessary to fill the hall with the sound of the guitar. By themselves, neither the amplifier nor the electric guitar is enough to do the job. (I think I just illustrated the situation where the ground power along would not be enough, but hey, nobody's perfect, right?):)

[taijiquan_student]

Exactly.:)

(p.s. did you think I said fajing doesn't come from the ground? I certainly didn't mean to, if something sounded like that.)

[Sam Wiley]

No, it's cool. It's just that some people do not recognize for one reason or another that both waist and ground are necessary for fa-jing. I just wanted you to get the correct information.

[fiercest tiger]

if you havent got time to ground or get into proper stance you can use stomping to generate the ging!:D

do any of you use this method?:)

[Sam Wiley]

Often, FT. There are many instances of stomping and slap-stepping in the Old Yang style and the style of Bagua I practice, and it is always a power generation method. I actually prefer to stomp or slap step forward in application. It makes the attack even more like a cannon going off.

Come to think of it, both stomping and slap stepping slam the heels into the ground, which I am told helps to ground you. So I suppose that doing these types of movements to gain power is pretty much instantaneous grounding during an attack when you haven't had time to properly ground beforehand.

[fiercest tiger]

we share similar thoughts here...:) maybe erle isnt that bad after all, hehehe only kidding mate. do you think erle added this also from hsing yi?

[Sam Wiley]

From what I understand, Erle knows very little Xingyi. However, there are elements of both the Old Yang Style and the Chiang Style Bagua he teaches which are similar to Xingyi. In addition, he teaches a little known style of Taiji that has several forms which bear strong resemblence in places to Xingyi movements. While anything is possible, I think that he just got into styles that included them anyway.

[Zantesuken]

Sam Wiley. Erle Montigue is really bad at his tai chi. i saw some of his broadsword forms which was REALLY disgusting but i'm not here to flame him. In Tai Chi yes you are using the minimal amount of force but that doesn't mean to use external. You can argue that you can't send someone flying back but yet you've only seen Erle Montigue as the best and even though he MAY be good he's not the BEST there is. I have videos of someone using Yi Chuan to send a person flying back. Well not like 20 feet flying back but he can 'bounce' him about 6 or 7 feet back. If you would like I could post this in a later reply.

Anyways I guess you could distinguish between combat chi and so on but ultimately chi is chi. You circulate the same chi to heal a person and also circulate it when you need it in combat.

Heh to get Chi takes a longggg time. Just to see if I'm going to keep at it I was told it takes at least 5 years to notice a little difference and that's 5 years with training everyday. THen after 10 years you'll begin to get better and only after 20 years of long hard training will you actually get anywhere. Some people have not truly attainted the power to use the entire body with internal power and their sifu's can't perform the function so they doubt the existance of the ability. Of course you're not gonna be able to send a fireball flying into a guy but you can bounce him back I'm sure of it because I've seen it myself however the sifu passed away 2 yrs ago :(.

And someone earlier said that practising the form alone will not help you circulate chi and they recommended qi-gong. Qi-Gong is there to help such as meditation standing meditation and so on but don't forget. Tai Chi is also MOVING meditation so how can you not? You practise the forms to loosen your insides and develop power in the 7 gates as well as your other internal organs. Now a days Tai Chi is more health oriented but it doesn't mean that it's not as effective. The health forms still retain the original 13 postures. Many people like Erle Montigue's idea of Fa-Jing is not the most correct in the world. Punching with turning your hip is NOT true fa-jing. Turning your hip is always emphisized in most martial arts because you generate more power that way. Heh anyways I forgot the subject but i know it's on Tai Chi. I started Tai Chi when I was 10 and I'm never gonna stop! One day I'm gonna go back to Hong Kong to see if my sifu's master will teach me but I heard he's really busy and he avoids most of his disciples so I guess I'm screwed but always better to try and fail then to not try and never succeed!

[Sam Wiley]

Hello, Zantesuken, welcome to the forum.

Okay, I'm not going over this again. You may think what you like based on a few video clips you've seen over the internet. I'm not going to argue with you. But don't put words in my mouth. Sounds to me like you've been frequenting Cyberkwoon, where a few people who don't like what I have to say decided they would start flaming Erle Montaigue on the forum over there under the guise of a quest for information about him. I suggest that before you start demeaning a man who has done a lot to bring to light the martial nature of Taiji for those who otherwise thought it was a health dance, you actually visit and train with him and make up your mind afterwards. You know, it's funny, but half of your post reads like it was paraphrased from a couple of Erle Montaigue's books.

Pushing someone back 10 feet is not a true measure of internal power...PERIOD. Fa-jing has nothing to do with sending someone flying back that far except for maybe as a side effect. The only person I have ever sent flying back with fa-jing asked that I demonstrate the "one inch punch" on him. I put my hand against his chest and hit him in the solar plexus with a twisting snap punch so hard he flew backwards and hit a tree about 4 feet behind him. I punched him so hard and explosively that I was standing back up before the shockwave hit him and drove him backwards. And I did it on purpose. So, yes, I can do it, but I still say it's a parlor trick. Everyone else I have hit with real fa-jing simply fell unconcious or crumpled to the ground. That's the real stuff. And you can ask some of the more serious practitioners on this board about the effects of hitting someone with real fa-jing, and they'll tell you the same thing. I believe Maoshan, who specializes in Bagua if I remember, mentioned something similar above, about the internal making people simply drop and not go flying. (Sorry to drop your name here, Maoshan, especially if I am mistaken.)

I don't know who put that crap in your head about how long it takes to learn Taijiquan well, but it's utter nonsense. Why would anyone study a martial art they couldn't use well for another 20 years?

I see in your post that you began training at the age of 10, and in your profile it says you've been training for 5 years...you're 15 years old?

[Zantesuken]

yeah 15. It's not like he's GOOD. Fa-Jing is not all sending a person flying back but it is a side effect. It's a measure of how well your internal power works. The way he does Fa-Jing doesn't show that he has internal power. I asked him for a vcd but he hasn't responded yet but still and no I do not read Erle Montigue's books. There are other sources wher eyou can study tai chi so anyone well learned will pretty much come up with the same answer.

And the time to master tai chi is not at all crap. To learn the form it wouldn't take a long time. Nor learning Qi-Gong among other things. But to actually achieve a high level of Tai Chi and be able to use it effectively in medicine and combat will take you a lifetime.

So you after practising for a few years can truly use Fa-Jing? With no muscle at all and severly internally injure someone? Real Fa-Jing does involve internal power and it can be used in a different ways. I'm just saying that what's the point of stamping? If you watch a real master at Tai Chi you can see the difference between the students and the master. Masters will always move with flow and softness whereas this Erle person seems to favour hard hits. I've read his Way of the Warrior article and it's fairly good but he's just not good. If he does have Fa-Jing then I applaud him but his movements are still to stiff for it to be Fa-Jing. He even wrote himself that you need relaxation but right before he hits he always always stiffens up. I'm not flaming you or anything it's just that Erle guy. If the power came from the ground then he would have moved his feet as well to show the jing when he hit the mit. But instead he decided to stamp as well as bend his back which is a no no in Tai Chi.

The reason your Sung is just defined as looseness is because your teacher was not a a very high level. He may have achieved a few mechanics of the art worked out well but on the whole he can't be all that good. I just consulted my Tai Chi source and they said there is NO physical strength involved. Erle Montigue only involves this because his Tai Chi is not as high a level as it should be in order to perform those moves. Fa-Jing is supposed to be the fusion of your chi and the intention of the action.

Back to the time thing. THat's merely an idea but generally it iwll take you a lifetime to master the art. Before it's practised for combat it should be practised for health. Afterwords the defense mechanism will be there. Erle Montigue may know how the applications of each move work but. In Erle's article about the story of his life he says that sifu Chu's abilities are purely physical is probably because Erle himself has never experienced true Tai Chi.

I applaud Erle sincerely because he has shed a LOT of light on Tai Chi but the thing is how can an 80 year old Tai CHi master send someone flying back? Being hit and crippling to the ground is not necessarily internal power working but where you hit them. Hitting them in the stomach for example will get them on the ground. Or hitting them in the solar plex which is part of centerline teachings in Ving Tsun is also another thing that will hurt a lot. But hitting in those points aren't simply good enough. Erle has obviously never seen old school masters at work but I've had the privelage of seeing two of them in China. One was from Hong Kong and the other visits Canada occasionally. Before YOU make judgement on Tai Chi I would keep a more open mind on things. Much of China's martial arts have a LOT of hidden secrets and just because Erle Montigue takes a certain view on things is just his loss because he will never fully master the art.

[bamboo_ leaf]

you are just 15? :)

[Sam Wiley]

ZANTESUKEN,

P I S S off TROLL.

[prana]

no offense but for a 15 yo, he doesnt sound his age Sam :)

[Sam Wiley]

's alright.

I think I know who he is.

And if he's not that loser, he's probably Ralek with an extremely good troll. But I'm betting on the other loser, whom I have already told to kiss my a$$, which he can still do as far as I'm concerned.

We have a name for his kind where I am from. "Carriers of silver-headed canes." Those who understand, will know what I'm talking about.

We also have a name for Ralek's kind, but it's not polite to say it in public.:D

[Zantesuken]

yeah ur pretty high and mighty sir. Considering you're located in the U.S. and i'm in CANADA i doubt that I'm this ralek person. We have names for people like you to :P. And wtf is a troll?

[Zantesuken]

and what's so bad about being 15?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Nothing is bad about being 15, I wish I was 18 again. :)

Writing and expressing views that seem to be far above what is expected for this age tends to prompt questions as to weather you really are 15.


Either you are 15 and are very, very good. Or you are not.
Another possibility is that you are and are acting as a mouthpiece for some one else.

If you are 15 I feel bad for you.

It seems that you have not learned to keep and open mind along with humbleness and tolerance in respecting others viewpoints.

but thats okay after all your only 15 right? still time to learn and grow.


luck in training

[Nexus]

Why criticize someone for being arrogant and lacking humbleness? It is the arrogant who make themself sick. Arrogance is counter-productive to chi kung, just think about it.

What is the pose of someone who is arrogant? Nose in the air to society? Cutting off the qi from the brain?

- Nexus

[Zantesuken]

heh I'm not arrogant about anything. Maybe cause i'm 15 you say that but I'm not. I keep open mind to everything and learn as much as I can and I don't act as a mouthpiece for someone else. What reason would I have to?

And how is being arrogant counter productive lol? I respect a lot of other people's view points but then sometimes you cannot deny :P. I don't consider myself paritcularly good in any of the martial arts i take but still. Everyone knows their martial art well knows what to look for :)

[Zantesuken]

...and I wasn't flaming Erle Montigue on being bad. THe thing that got me mad was that he decided to teach his incomplete Tai Chi to everyone. He may have the theory down but he doesn't have the actual kung fu.

[Nexus]

And you have met Erle in person or you just came to that conclusion because of your advanced knowledge on the subject of tai chi? Or perhaps its because you've heard people say similar things about Erle and you want to hop on the bandwagon in order to sound as if you know something?

If that is not the case, feel free to enlighten us on which part of Erle's tai chi is incomplete and what theories in specific do you speak of?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Zantesuken,


One question, I won’t bother this thread any more.

Can you do what you say others can’t do with your present experience?

Or is it a case of your teachers or people you know being able to do something that you can not? Not being able to do it, you draw conclusions about others based on something that you yourself can't do yet.

In either case if you could do it, then it might be more a matter of level and interpretation and it doesn’t matter what any one thinks because you know it. This place is not a proving ground.

If it’s the latter case then you really don’t know, but write well for some one only 15.

In any case it’s pointless to bring it here.

luck in your training :)

[Zantesuken]

argh bambooleaf the line is confusing but i think i get ur question. No I cannot perform true fa-jing but I've seen it in action from my sifu. Afterwords he did explain it to me and everything and showed me but heh 5 years experience isn't enough for me. I don't know how exactly to explain 'incomplete' but it's just there. Erle knows how all the application of the forms and movements to combat and stuff but what i mean by doesn't have the kung fu down is that if he were to go up against a real master at it then he wouldn't last.

and i know this thread isn't a proving ground but it's not what I had in mind the first time i wrote a post. and i don't know of other people who joined the bandwagon. I found taijiworld.com when i was looking through for tai chi resources to look at because i wanted to find a chen style school in canada. and it's not MY interpretation of the videos that erle posted on his site. I was curious because the link said "video example of REAL fa-jing" so I dl'ed both that and his broadsword form and burned it to vcd. Then i took it to my sifu and showed him and that's when my sifu pointed out the stuff. So it's not like I loath the guy but it's more like he does stuff wrong :P. I respect bamboo's insight because yea I'm not super tai chi guy but it wasn't entirely based on my own thoughts in the first place. :P and it's not like ur bothering the thread heh. I think i caused too much commotion and yes i am 15! what's so hard to believe?!

[GreyMystik]

what's hard to believe is that you are familiar with the level of what you are talking about. most people at age 15 can barely grasp some of the concepts you speak of, yet you seem to (at least want us to think that) you have a thorough understanding of said concepts. Your last post shows what we were (at least *I* was) looking for; namely that your sifu made the comments about Erle's skill and abilities, and you regurgitated said comments on the forum. I can only speak for myself, and this is what I have done, but I strongly suspect I am not alone here.
also try to remember that just because something is done differently does not necessarily mean it is done 'wrongly', only 'wrongly' in the context of the other method. if i learn method 'a' and you learn method 'b', is one wrong? only relatively, from the other viewpoint. your method may appear inconsistent with mine, because i learned it differently. however, if they both produce effective results, who is to say which one is the 'right' method? ;)

[Zantesuken]

considering that my original sifu passed away and i talk to my grandma who i kinda guess is my sifu because she's stil better than me she only said two things. First she said that just moving your hips won't giv eyou true fa-jin and that true jing in tai chi is the fusion of your intention and chi. (yi hei hup yut in cantonese) and secondly she said that his broadsword form is crap.

THe rest of it I consulted from a book to look at it. 70% of tai chi theory i can grasp by myself an din terms of mechanics as well. I do however read a LOT of tai chi books and that's how i know my stuff. and wtf i don't just regurgitate things. heh i guess i said it in the wrong way. that's sucha crappy way tho! i didn't mean to completely flame the erle guy but then it kinda turned into that lol :P.

and seeing as how I can't understand tai chi i also studied the toa te ching by lao tzu and studied several different versions of the book (since all translations are not completely accurate) and yeah i relate that to tai chi when i can. and also it's not THAT hard to grasp things. I take other martial arts which helps with the understanding. i'm always bored at school so i spend classes thinking of tai chi and stuff :P.

[Zantesuken]

oh yeah sorry i didn't read your entire post heh i'm in the middle of work. for th e a and b method thing yeah both are right ways and each style has different ways of doing things but they always share core principles. centered, relaxation etc..

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

All of you are right on the money and technical too. You have made this topic hot and heavy. Can you feel the chi?

xiaotiema

[maoshan]

I think the first part of what you wrote was a compliment.
As for the second (can you feel the Chi?),
I don't understand what you mean. If it's in friendship than,
Welcome.

This thread (as always) has gotten off the path I first set. But still, interesting topics spun of it.
Keep it real Sam.

Peace

Maoshan

[red_fists]

Hi.

I would like to add my 2 cents worth here.
Granted I haven't read he FULL thread, ain't got that much time.

Chi Training or Chi-Kung, Qi-Gong, Ki-Ko(Japanese) can be found in nearly all the Martial Arts(Chinese, Japanese, Korean,etc).
Yep, they might call it Sanchin not Zang Zhuang, etc. but it is there.

It is also my belief that there was no differentiation between internal and external styles until very recently(mid 20th Century).
So everybody just did "Chuan Fa/Kempo" (Fist methods).

Yes, the ratio of external to internal varied between the styles, but both were trained for at a specific time during the Curriculum.

The recent spade of "Chi" is a new marketing trick that some people have used to sell/differentiate their Art.
The same goes for the "external/internal" Level.
Example: Look at Tai Chi.
Initially it was called Chen Family Boxing, than Mien quan (Cotton fist) and than later on Tai Chi Chuan.
Yang Cheng Fu formalised the 108 Forms and was the first to coin "Yang Tai Chi" (in 192X), before than there was only Tai Chi Chuan or the Tai Chi Chuan practised by X or Y.

The Chen main styles were mostly external, but they already had some "internal" styles from the Shao-Lin Monks(Hong Quan) that they practised as well.
One of the reason why nobody can pinpoint the date when Tai Chi was "internalised" as I think it happened gradually.

Also you need to bear in mind that all over the MA scene People cross-trained and took moves, ideas and concepts from People they met along the road.

Said that everybody has Chi/Qi/Ki.
How to you build it by living a healthy lifestyle and not doing things that use a lot of Chi.
How do you learn to use it by studying either Martial Arts, Yoga, Chi Kung or similar exercises that will train you in it.
Hope this was not too confusing or off-thread.

[Zantesuken]

Red_fists that makes a LOT of sense and it's prolly true but if Tai Chi was originally called Cotton fist then it wasn't external or at least if it was then very little. The point of it is for soft to overcome hard. External is hard and internal is soft :p. and I don't think Chen invented Tai Chi. the story of Chang San Feng is always the coolest. yeah a lot of other MA do incorporate some sort of internal chi-kung but it's not to the level that people practise in tai chi. They way other ma practise the kung is different. I dunno about karate but looking at my friends' classes you can tell they're not developing chi in the same way you are and the results aren't the same. Tai Chi's chi is based on Toaist breathing excersises to strengthen tantien and kidneys i think. bla bla bla bla i wonder where sam wiley is.

one more thing
what's a troll? not the troll under a bridge but if uc all sum1 a troll on this board is it supposed to be bad?

[prana]

Zan, my explaination is probably less accurate, but a troll posts things to expose false truths about certain things, generally because they find it humrorous...

[Sam Wiley]

"Internal" does not mean "soft." There is no such thing as a "soft" martial art, even if one uses as little muscle as possible. And Taijiquan's roots are definitely in the "external" arts. It only developed into what we now classify as "internal" later on. In fact, during the early days of what we now call Taiji, there was no such division between "internal" and "external." Taiji has had many names, and Cotton Fist is one of them.

[red_fists]

Hi Zan.

Yes, you are right and wrong there.

Some "pure" japanese Arts have very little internal aspects unless you get to roku-dan(6th BB) or higher.

On the other Hand a lot of the Aiki (Aikido. Aiki-jutsu,Tai-Jutsu Daito-Ryu)arts are mostly internal.

Also a lot of Arts like Shorinshi-kempo and some other Kempo Arts are a Japanese interpretation of the Chinese system that was taught to their founders.
Kempo = Quan-fa (same Characters)
Kiba dachi = Ma Bu stance
etc.

Example: Shorinshi-Kempo is Shaolin styles and some other CMA mixed, but with Japanese pilosophies.

Also most Ryu-Kyu Kara-te(To-Te) and Kempo style still are trained still the same way as their Chinese Mother-Arts. The Ki-Ai is the Kara-te way of Chi/Ki generation/release.

As for Tai Chi Chuan: Yang Lu Chan's Art was called "Cotton Fist" because it was so soft, but felt like a steel bar wrapped in Cotton.
His art at that time was known under a few Names.
The Chen Family Art he learned had still a lot of external aspects in it.
When he taught at the imperial Courts one Taoist priest saw him practice and found that the Art followed the I-Ching(Tao) and hence called the Art "Tai Chi Chuan" (All Encompasing/Infinite Fist).
BTW, many Arts were taught simultaneously at the Imperical Court and Skill competition were often done, but actual fighting was forbidden.
Yang earned the name of "Yang with no Enemies".

Yes, the "Great Ultimate Fist" is also a mistranslation.

Also a lot of the Tai Chi Classics & Treaties don't come from the Chen Family, and many were written after Yang Lu Chan. So it is hard to say what he exactly learned at the Chen Village.
Also Hsing Yi and Ba Gua as well as Shao-Lin Hong Quan predate Tai Chi(AFAIK).
I think that the Chen Village practised some Hsing Yi aswell.

FWIW, I have seen some Japanese/Okinawan Masters perform the same skill/Chi Demonstration as the Shao-Lin monks.

Ba Gua is also based on the I-Ching, but I guess you knew that already.
Hsing Yi is the only combat/war tested of the 3 internal Arts.
My Style is Tai Kyoku Kempo( Ta Chi Fist Art) and is a mix of Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Ba Gua, Qi-Gong & Seizan.
As my Sijo mixd the Arts he learned in Taiwan into a new system.
Anyhuh, time to jump of the soap box and stop rambling.

[Zantesuken]

I heard in general all karate sucks in north america and the best place u'll find it is okinawa. but still. Karate has its roots in Shoalin much like everything else but Okinawa, hung gar, all that is still external. heh i had a different interpretation i don't know how to say it in english but it's something to do with hitting cotton. heh it's not exactly the best translation but meh :p. Anyways yeah I guess ur right but still looking at all ma i still think tai chi is the best. shaolin monk performnances are cool cause i've seen em but the way they use their chi isn't similar to tai chi tho some principles i guess are. there's minor stuff i can't really confirm cause i've only read it in books (books are the devil don't trust them and reading is for witches). Okinawa ppl also practise this as a fighting art whereas shoalin is for spiritual training. i do'nt consider myself an authority on japanese ma but all the stuff i see growing up isn't relaly impressive.

considered that in the olden times everyone did have internal arts in there ma it's bound to be certain that some forms would be superior in a way? it's not like it doesn't exist even in north america. my friends used to sit down and meditate at the end of their class but they quit after amonth or so but bleh.

and go chan san fung! i don' see how you DON'T like the guy. if u can find an old old chiense video store and u can understand cantonese then u should find the series based on him made in the 80's! heh i found it recently and it's pretty good aside from the weird camera work. but meh i guess it's my fault cause i am kinda biased towards japanese ma. i've yet to see anything that's good or flashy aside from some old school kenjutsu movies like seven samurai and stuff.

but also when you think about it most japanese ma are too stiff. i'm not saying other ma's aren't stiff but stuff like kempo and that are stiff. i was takling to my wing chun si hing guy today and he was talking about his kempo training and stuff and then he beat me up for fun :p heh anyways i'm goin to bed. but bottom line he said kempo, karate, and everything was too stiff and he had to unlearn it all cause he found wing chun to be a better system bla i didn't finish listening cause they started punching each other lol

[red_fists]

Hi Zan.

From what I hear from and see it appears that Hsing Yi generates more Chi and faster than Tai Chi and Ba Gua.

Most People overlook the other internal Arts since Tai Chi is getting such a media Push.

Said that I like to study all 3 Arts as each has a different aspect to offer.

Hsing Yi is the most "external" of the 3 and even though the System appears small there is plenty to study.

Ba Gua is nice for the added Footwork, still not as internal as Tai Chi. Also the Palm changes are a nice addition to the other 2 arts.

Tai Chi I like because of the smooth flowing motion, but feel that with the extra media attention there are too many frauds and Mc Dojo's ruining the Art.

Each of those 3 styles deals differently with the attack:
Hsing Yi moves forward or diagonally.
Ba Gua you circle the Opponent.
Tai Chi you bassically wait for the Opponent to move into your space.

For me the best is a combination of those 3.

Anyhuh, Seeya.

[Zantesuken]

I know what you mean. Hsing-I from what I've heard other people say develops power much much faster than the other 2. I'm not sure if Hsing-I is the same as Xing Yi but one of my si hings asked a master guy to teach em xing yi and he asked them how many styles they've learned and they said just tai chi and he refused em. You gotta have really good groundings in other ma before you be really good at xing yi. Tai Chi is getting a lot of media attention but IMO it's really that good :p. It's not that there are many mcdojos on tai chi it's just that the people don't know.

I wanna take a trip to china and stuff to see some real ppl in action. Go rent Tai Chi: Chan san fung tv series from 1980! It has bagua, tai chi, and i THINK hsing-i as well as some shoalin stuff. Tho i must admit the fighting isn't as flashy as jet limovies they're still pretty good by today's standards :)

[red_fists]

Hi Zan.

Hsing-I and Xing-Yi is the same, just a different spelling due to dialect.

Not sure why your Master turned a Tai Chi practicioner away. Sounds strange.

Actually there are plenty of MC Dojo's in the modern TaiChi scene as well as some well known Masters with questionable skills and background.
I will not name those, as doing so would result in flamewars.

Jet Li's move will always look better.
Considering he is an actor, get plenty of takes, the right angle on the Camera to look good, and some of the best movement instructions around.

[Justa Man]

Ba Gua is nice for the added Footwork, still not as internal as Tai Chi.

Just curious, but why not? What makes Tai Chi more internal than Ba Gua? I don't see it.



Each of those 3 styles deals differently with the attack: Hsing Yi moves forward or diagonally.
Ba Gua you circle the Opponent.
Tai Chi you bassically wait for the Opponent to move into your space.

I don't know how long you have been training, but this is a pretty beginner view of the arts mentioned. I'm not trying to insult you or anything like that, but I think in another couple of years you may see things differently. To say that in Ba Gua, one would circle one's opponent to deal with an attack leads me to think you have only begun your training (if you even are training) in Ba Gua. It seems as if you are limiting the potential of each style and yourself. While circling may be a more obvious trait of Ba Gua, it isn't specific to just Ba Gua. In short, each of the arts you mention uses the traits you mention of all 3 and vise-versa. But you are right on when saying the best is a combination of all 3.


You gotta have really good groundings in other ma before you be really good at xing yi.

Hmm? You really think so? I find the opposite to be true. Xing Yi is very blatent and I don't think any previous martial art experience is needed to learn it.


I wanna take a trip to china and stuff to see some real ppl in action.

:) Don't be fooled. There are people in China who $uck balls and there is a Johnny McNobody down the street who is the realest thing you've yet to see. I wish I could remember the Taoist saying that says you don't need to go to China to see real martial artists. :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to diss either of you guys at all. I just wanted to share my opinion. :)

[red_fists]

Hi Justa-Man.

No Problems here.

I know that my understandings of the 3 internal arts is still limited.

Since I study a Style that is a combination of those 3 Arts, we don't get to deep into the individual characteristics.

Yes, I am aware that a lot of traits are shared between the arts, but the emphasis on certain aspects is still there.

But I am always willing to learn and enjoy being corrected.

Peace.

[Zantesuken]

Man you won't find a Tai Chi Jonny Mcballs in NA. or if you do he's not super duper skilled as ppl in Chen Village and stuff.

I dunno about Xing Yi if you can speak cantonese i'm refering to Ying Yi but i dunno i think it's the same thing we're talking about. I was talking and Ying Yi takes other good groundings in MA to be good at it. Tai Chi and another internal style should be good because Ying Yi developed out of Tai chi and stuff :)

[Zantesuken]

Man you won't find a Tai Chi Jonny Mcballs in NA. or if you do he's not super duper skilled as ppl in Chen Village and stuff.

I dunno about Xing Yi if you can speak cantonese i'm refering to Ying Yi but i dunno i think it's the same thing we're talking about. I was talking and Ying Yi takes other good groundings in MA to be good at it. Tai Chi and another internal style should be good because Ying Yi developed out of Tai chi and stuff :)

and i know china has some bs. BUT that's only for the shoalin area cause they decided to repopulate but there are still some serious monks there. they can do some pretty cool stuff w/ their zen and chi and stuff. hong kong also has some good ppl if i can find the time. cantonese is my main thing. in china i'll die w/o learning mandarin lol

[Zantesuken]

argh sorry for posting anr eposting again

and red_fists he didn't turn the person away. He said that Tai Chi wasn't enough so my si hing learned another styleo f internal ma i don't remmeber. canton name lok hup or something like that and then they were able to learn xing yi

[Justa Man]

Forget the Tao, Bilbo Baggins says it just fine...

...All that glitters is not gold
Those who wander are not lost...

So it's only the Shaolin area that contains frauds and you think there aren't as super duper skilled Tai Chi players anywhere as there are from Chen village and stuff huh? Ok then. I guess just the name, Chen Village, means that much. Darn...I wish I had ch-ink-y eyes and a Chen Village birth certificate. I could make a killing on you. Good luck in your training.

[red_fists]

Hi Zan.

Don't want to burst your bubble.

But it appears that Hsing Yi was around before Tai Chi become known. As the art that become Tai Chi was only taught to Members of the Chen Village until Yang Lu Chan(~150yrs ago).

Unless Ying-Yi is another Art that is not refered in my Tai Chi Literature.

Yes, I have heard all the rumours that Tai Chi is the mother art of ALL internal Arts if not ALL the CMA Arts, and that even Aikido is rooted in TAi Chi.

As for the Chen Village, it has become pretty much a money machine using the old Chen Tai Chi as the driving force.

Yes, they still practice Tai Chi there, but if you want Instructions bring plenty of money.

Some say that the leve there is lower than the Tai Chi outside of China.
As for frauds in the Tai Chi scene, yep, there are plenty there.
Sometimes I think more frauds than properly trained People.
Heck but than abybody go and study under a famous name and open their own Kwoon after a few Years claiming a lineage via his "famous" Teacher.

[Zantesuken]

hahah sorry red fists! i was on a site about yi chuan and i re-read it and it was the SIFU that learned it in the 1920's hahahahah it thought it was a little off lololol

[TaiChiBob]

WOW.. you guys are intense!!.. it's ALL good.. but, my teacher continues to repeat his mantra.. simplify and practice, simplify and practice.. oddly, it works..
Who has Chi? We all do.
Who has invested the time and discpline to use it? Few.
Two fighters, equally trained in the physical arts, one with a knowledge and skill of Chi usage and one without.. my money goes to the one with the Chi knowledge.. My point is that its another tool in our bag of tools (i believe its a pretty good tool, too).
My experience is that Chi is just another aspect of that basic life force that animates each of us. As we are each our own creators, it is to the extent that we choose to improve and balance our training that we can expand our awareness and use this basic life force in any of the areas of our lives we choose. Chi is one culture's skillful understanding and manipulation of basic energy to their advantage.
But, to return to the original question. I have been told that my Chi is strong and clean, but.. that's a value judgment i leave to others. I do know that there is an aspect of combat that transcends pure muscle logic, for now i'll call it Chi.
I will not bicker about the Masters, styles, and fragmented concepts surrounding the concept of Chi.. i do, however, suggest that there are no natural exclusions as to what builds or doesn't build Chi, that "intent" is the force that builds Chi.. if i intend to improve my Chi while Fly-fishing, and my intent is clear and focused, then i will build Chi.. Now, to convert Fly-fishing Chi to combat Chi, again i must be clear, focused and already have a discipline of combat to which to apply that Chi.
Chi is just a word, a word we use to describe an aspect of our lives that is almost mystical in its application for improving our quality of life. I sense that there is a basic energy/force that is the raw material of the universe. We (our conscious being) sculpts our existence from this energy/force.. Certainly, we can create many aspects including various "Chi" aspects from the basic material. But, we can effectively limit these by simply over-fragmenting the applications, "bone Chi, prenatal Chi, tissue Chi, etc".. its ALL Chi, just applied differently.. My teacher offers guidance for Chi development according to his own experience but, always says to experiment and perhaps we will find even better development techniques. He says that application of chi in combat is a function of "no thinking".. like when a bug is flying toward your eye, if you analyze trajectory, evaluate the appropriate response, then attempt to execute it.. you will be picking a bug out of your weeping eye.. If you just let your natural response overide the thought process you will evade a bothersome encounter.. So it is with Chi, train yourself to know its possibilities and applications.. then, let your natural response to a situation use that understanding of Chi "naturally"..
If i have to dig through my mental filing cabinet (thinking) to find the appropriate "Chi response".. the opponent will have already executed his/her intentions..
Rather than thinking of different types of Chi, think of a single "Chi" applied to differing situations.. (simplify).. I collect and store my Chi in the Dan Tien.. then through discipline and "will" i apply it as needed, as the situation demands..
Anyhow.. that's just my humble opinion.. not right/not wrong.. just another perspective that works for me..
Be well, do good deeds (our deeds define us)..

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by Justa Man
Forget the Tao, Bilbo Baggins says it just fine...

...All that glitters is not gold
Those who wander are not lost...

"Frodo...of the Nine Fingers...and the Ring of Doom...Why does he have Nine Fingers?..."

No, you're right, the song from the Hobbit movie is way better.:)

[Zantesuken]

it's not like they're not good. and don't wish you had *****y eyes cause i do stupid.

someone like CHen Fa-Ke is actually good and he came out of chen. If i were to learn i always watch the person first. ANd don't think U.S. tai chi is that great. I don't nkow about the 'other' place sin the u.s. but the taichi wushu forms are really really ugly. cept for that one brandon competitor guy who's okay