To all you CLF guys out there...

[Wah]

Ok heres the thing...this has been buggin me for the longest time now. I go on here and some of you CLF practitioners from Bak Sing and others are saying that Chan Yong Fa is not the actual Jerng Mun of CLF, but most agree he is the Jerng Mun of the Chan Family style. So heres the question to you, the guys from Bak Sing are saying their form does not have any connections with Chan Heung or when he created CLF. But...you say that it developed in some temple in the north...so how did it get its name CLF? coincidence...i don't think so. Who is the creator of Bak Sing CLF? Where did it come from, what about its history? and to all the others, I know about Lee Kwoon Hung because that was the original teacher for my CLF teachings but I have since gone to learn under Sigung Chan. But even Lee Kwoon Hung learned from the Chan Family line. But it seems Bak Sing and some others have not? Please all...name all those people who have been recognized as or say they are the Jerng Mun...this is just for my curiosity and I'm not trying to start any trouble about this and that one CLF.

[JAZA]

Wah, let me tell you that you are very worng and may be will create trouble with your comments.
Here in this forum I never have seen any trouble with the bak sing people, the last discussion where with the people of Futsan Hung Sing, but it stop because it fall in personal disqualifications, that I don´t want to see again here.
I have never seen Buk Sing people saying that they don´t have connections with Chan Heung, the Buk in Buk Sing come from the mix of style of Ku Yu Cheung of Bak Siu Lam and Tarm Sarm.
I think that you are confusing the ToiShan Tso Li Ho Fo, that said that they don´t have connections with Choy Lee Fut in general and that they came from the books of a shaolin temple.

[Wah]

Thnx for that bit of info...and if i do cause trouble on this forum because of my posts and remarks...my bad. But like i said...i know what i read and i know i saw someone who wrote that buk sing does not come from the chan family but came from out of the north. But all I'm asking is for clarification, not to stir up any trouble.

[iron_silk]

No offense intended but your questioning could lead into a lot of confusions in their answers since you mentioned a lot of other minor infos that could be found on CLF websites if perhaps you searched for them?

After some good searching, then come back with your questions much more cleaned up and straight forward (ie without the cluttering of simple-unimportant info) then perhaps you can reach your point and get a better straight answers from people sooner?

Well that is just my thought! goodluck!

[Wah]

yo...iron silk...thats the thing, i did go on lots of sites trying to find the history of substyles such as Buk Sing, and many other CLF practitioners sites. Many of them offer conflicting answers about the history of its foundings, so i come here to try to find an answer.

[extrajoseph]

On the whole, the CLF lineage is quite straight forward, everyone came from either one or more of the four main Branches: the Great Sage Hung Sing, the Heroic Victory Hung Sing, the Great Victory Hung Sing and Buk Sing.

Great Sage HS is the oldest, it was Chan Heung's fisrt school in King Mui Village. When CLF started to spread outside of King Mui Village to large towns like Kwangchow, it was changed to Heroic Victory HS. Later when Cheong Yim (one of Chan Heung's top disciples) took over the school in Futshan, it became known as Great Victory HS. From Cheong Yim's line, Tarm Sarm (foruth generation) took on the name of Buk Sing since he was teaching in a district called Siu Buk in Kwangchow. Great Sage is the oldest and Buk Sing is the youngest branch.

From this framework, we can slot in most of the well known schools in the west nowadays. For example, Chen Yong Fa's Chen Family school has its root in both the Great Sage Chan Heung in King Mui Village) and the Heroic Victory Hung Sing (Chan Yiu-Chi in Kwangchow) and the Lacey brothers have their root clearly in Buk Sing. As you know already, Lee Kong-Hung also has a mixed lineage and so forth.

Because of the oral tradition and the difference in dialects, some schools may have seemingly conflicting stories but they are usually minor ones and can be easily clarified. Some schools, for reasons only known to themselves, may play up one line and play down another. Some schools, because of commercial reasons, may not want ot play up the CLF lineage at all. It is their business.

We must not forget though, whatever lineage we may came from, all CLF practitioners are members of one family, for we all came from the same seeds first casted by Chan Heung in King Mui Village.

I hope this is the answer you are looking for.

JosephX

[Wah]

Ahh!!!...thnx Joseph, this clears up alot about what i've seen and read...sorry for any trouble i might have stirred up but i needed some answers. Anyway peace out all

[nospam]

Well, one thing is for sure, there are many stories and many people who believe their's is the only truth.

It is a human trait to say one thing one day, and on another day say something different.

I'm not sure when, perhaps in the late 80's, and more so mid-90's, CLF as a whole (involving most of the governing bodies and major players) have wanted to present a united front. Solidarity. One style. One family. It is a political move. Whatever.

As well, over time, our opinions and hot-heads tend to cool down, as the "fight" in us lessens or becomes less important in the grander scheme of things.

I have no personal knowledge of Hung Hsing CLF Gar, but am a practitioner of Bak Hsing CLF Gar- we refer to ourselves as Bak Hsing Fut Gar. Granted, my history of even my style is limited, as in my youth I cared little for talk. But, as time progressed, the history and it's stories started to interest me. Interestingly enough, some of my claims (repeating of stories handed down from succeeding generation of Tam Sam's students) have been shot down by others, and even with comments from people of whom the stories involved!

Succeeding lineages add, delete, refine, and dilute their style. It is inevitable. I can appreciate the political view of a united family or style, all stemming from one great originator (or two). And for the most part, there remains similarity in technique, but in accordance to my lineage, my history, and my gung fu, it is or has become distinctive. And this distinction is credited to it's originator, Tam Sam.

We have all heard stories and will continue to hear stories and be involved directly or indirectly in ****ing contests, and I continue to uphold the stories as passed through my lineage, but in the end, gung fu- martial arts - is about progression. The means to a usually similar end; although most of us realise there is never truly an end.

I had a webpage with my lineage's stories and philosophies, but changed servers and have yet to upload on the new server.

To answer the original question to this thread:


Who is the creator of Bak Sing CLF? Where did it come from, what about its history?

Tam Sam created Bak Hsing CLF. I believe in the beginning, he held ties to CLF (many reasons here), but as time passed and his personal style was refined, something changed. He fought and shared knowledge and ideas with many masters of his time. What he 'created' continue to hold roots in CLF, but the concepts were modified and thus the reason behind the movements were changed or became 'new'. The name CLF held and continues to hold a great association on many levels.

Where did Bak Hsing CLF come from? No true definitive answer here. I guess one could say it came from Hung Hsing CLF and Tam Sam, and yet continues to be one and the same. Many say the true distinction is that Bak Hsing concentartes more on the fighting aspect of CLF. I am sure if you were to ask a Hung Hsing practitoner, they would laugh at that comment. I would. It sounds degrating of the other's fighting prowess.

The get to know the history of Bak Hsing, one must first get to know the history of it's creator- Tam Sam. Then at least a greater appreciation for the man and his style can be understood.

I have heard that the great distinction of Bak Hsing CLF is that it is half Bak Sui Lum. Indeed, there was a period in time when students and ideas were exchanged between the two, and some lineages of Bak Hsing continue to teach Bak Sui Lum in their curriculum, but not all students were invoilved in this exchange program, and you know not everything would have been taught, in either style, to just anyone. My lineage has Bak Sui Lum, but it was never taught as a core part of Bak Hsing, more so as something interesting the student might want to learn- expand one's horizen, so to speak.

So, what it gets down to...this style, this lineage, this person says that, and this, and refutes this and that. In my books, you'll say your piece and I'll say mine. If it is you I am talking to, then you decide for yourself what you want to take out of it. What matters is my gung fu, and the gung fu of my students. Stories are nice to hear, but have little to do with what I do in the kwoon, in the street or in Life.

Once upon a time, long, long ago in China...

nospam.
:cool:

[extrajoseph]

"Stories are nice to hear, but have little to do with what I do in the kwoon, in the street or in Life."

I am not so sure if Harry Potter would agree with you, but then again he is Harry and you are nospam. Right?

What do you think of this story then?

"To get to know the history of Choy Lee Fut, one must first get to know the history of it's creator- Chan Heung. Then at least a greater appreciation for the man and his style can be understood...." Not Sure.

What about this one?

"Once upon a time, long, long ago in China a butterfly flaps its wings and made a diferenrce to my kung fu..." Ridiculous!

Or this?

"So, what it gets down to...this style, this lineage, this person says that, and this, and refutes this and that. In my books, you'll say your piece and I'll say mine. If it is you I am talking to, then you decide for yourself what you want to take out of it. What matters is my gung fu, and the gung fu of my students..." That's it, that is MY story!

So the question still remains, "What is your Kung Fu?"

Care to tell us another story?

[extrajoseph]

History and stories do matter, they are part of your Kung Fu.

Now take that, you Hairy Potter!

History should be accurate but fictions need not and both should tell a good story so readers can decide what they want to believe.

Now take that, you Pottering Nose, or I'll give you a Spam!

Yes, Uncle JosephX.

[JAZA]

Joseph,

who is Harry Potter and from where are the quotes of the butterfly?.
I didn't understand what you try to say.

[extrajoseph]

Harry Potter is the little chap I see when I looked into the Magic Mirror and the quote for the butterfly comes from Chaos Theory. They are both good stories.

What was I trying to say? I am not sure now, I think Cunningham the Moviemagicman said it better than I can:

From Excaliber the movie:

"Remember Arthur. For it is the doom of men that they forget."

If you don't know where you came from, how can you know where you're going?

JosephX

[JAZA]

:)Good quotes

[extrajoseph]

Tarm Sarm originally called his school "(Great Victory) Hung Sing Tarm Gwoon". When he moved to Siu Buk, some of his students suggested that he should change the school name to Buk Sing. There were heated debates and it was not an easy decision to make but in the end the name Buk Sing stuck.

This little historical note showed as far as Tarm Sarm himself is concerned, he considered his art more Hung Sing CLF than Buk Sil Lum. I wonder what would happen if he did not have to move. We will never know, do we?

I would not be surprised one day, someone who likes to think Buk Sing should be half Buk Sil Lum and half CLF, would come up with the interpretation that the Buk in Buk Sing stands for Buk Sil Lum, if we do not have a record of what went on.

So after all there is some use for history, at least through history we can get a glimpse of how the older generation thinks and how changes were made and for what reasons.

I may be old fashioned, but I still think history has its place in Kung Fu, even though we know we can manipulate history, like anything else, as well.

JosephX

[iron_silk]

Jospeh I understand where you got Harry Potter and butterfly from but I am a little confused as to how it connected with the messages on this board.

Please enlighten me?

[extrajoseph]

iron_silk,

In Harry Potter's movie "The Philosopher's Stone", there is a Magic Mirror where we can see whatever we desire to see. It is the most dangerous thing we can have - seeing only what we want to see and not what is in front of us.

Chaos Theory says when a butterfly flaps it wing in South America we can feel it in our backayrd. Everything is inter-related, we cannot disconnect our past with our present or the future. We cannot disconnect what we do with how we think.

People think doing Kung Fu has nothing to do with history or Wu De (Martial Virtue), what matter is their Kung Fu. They are only looking at the "martial" side of Kung Fu and ignore the "literary" side of Kung Fu. They cannot see the body-mind connection, they only want to see what they want to see. They cannot see respecting our past is the salvation for our future.

Harry Potter and Chaos butterflies came to my mind when I was reading Nospam. I am sorry to be so obtuse, I was just writing down what was rambling through my mind. It was not an attack on Nospam, it was just my Chaotic mind at work.

JosephX

[cha kuen]

I heard that fight between Ku yu cheong and tarn sam never happened. I would like to believe that it did because it sounds facinating but I'll leave it up in the air.

[Ben Gash]

Joseph's just been at that dodgy batch of acid again :D
There you go, I'd always thought that the Bak in Bak Sing did mean northern, relating to the Bak Sil Lum aspect. You live and learn.

[extrajoseph]

Ben,

Sorry to be acidic as you put it, can't help it I have been around for too long and saw too many tricks. I didn't say the following but it strikes a common note with me, it came from Via Media, the company that publishes the Journal of Asian Martial Arts:

http://www.goviamedia.com/index.html

"Another influential source that has affected our perception of the Asian martial arts is martial arts instructors themselves. Of the thousands teaching today, most have only a superficial familiarity with the cultures in which the arts they teach originated. As a result, very few instructors have fully grasped the technical, historical, and philosophical fullness of their martial systems."

I am not trying to attack anyone or to divide the CLF community, I am just putting my bit into the system, it beats watching endless television. As you said it, we live and learn.

JosephX

[nospam]

cha kuen,

The story of Tam Sam and Ku Yu Cheung having fought is also up to debate. Some say they never fought, that due to mutual respect and an altruistic belief in propogating gung fu, they challenged tradition and exchanged students. The latter obviously occured.

In my lineage, Ku and Sam fought to a stand-still. I spoke with a representative of Ku's lineage last years and was informed their story goes that Ku & Tam fought, with Ku being the victor. Funny that, as my belief was they did fight, and Tam Sam won, but for political reasons a 'draw' was announced and the exchange of students took place.

As far as I'm concerned, my version occured and alls well that ends well. A good story is had by all to hear.

nospam.
:cool:

[bean curd]

the buk in buk sing choi li fut has nothing to do with the north, and has everything to do with the location in canton. regarding the fight with ku and tam, you must also read between the chinese characters hahaha.

there are many stories of great sifu never loosing a fight or being totally mo duk or drawing with another well respected sifu. this comes down to understanding the moral character of the writting, more than the actual event that took place, if it ever did.

i could write "watermargin returns" with all the sifu who fought this guy and that guy, but in the end it is the legacy that is left which shows the character of a sifu, especially one who contributes to the martial art world.

what i have been taught over the many years has always been the same, yet i must admit it now amazes me how things are starting to change and now people question what has been accepted by the elders for more years than i can remember.

tam sam was CHOI LI FUT first and foremost, buk sing was brought in for another reason as xtrajoseph has already explained, it was not to make his art different from the core skill of choi li fut.

there are technical differences from buk sing to other choi li fut, in yeuh, ma,bo, choi and especially charp, but it is still choi li fut.

as to lineage holders each to their own, the elders decide who is who, not someone just because of blood, i just train and do what i am told ;)

[nospam]

Yeah, that's my line. History is nice to talk and learn about, but hopefully with each generation, something is enhanced, progressed or even rehashed.

I realise the history of CLF is touchy for many folks in these here parts. I'll bite. It's not that important to me which story is truer than anothers'.

I just like discussing CLF and CMA in general. Understanding through application, I say.

I have a question:

For those CLF players, do you have a variation in stances? I realise many preach low wide stances for training, but when fighting they are raised. I am wondering if folks have what might be referred to as an 'advanced horse' that is used exactly in the same manner as when trained? My lineage does. And my lineage of masters have been quite adamant on its specific training and use for those of an appropriate level.

For the most part it involves sai ping and ding ji ma.

Thx.

nospam.
:cool:

[extrajoseph]

nospam,

Why don't you tell us a little of what you mean by "advance horse' first?

JosephX

[buksing_king]

Hi there i currently train in choy lay fut buk sing
IN Australia and our school was recently visited by Shane and Vince Lacey

ANYWAYS

Are you talking about the move where you start in horse stance { say ping ma} then put your weight onto your backleg mainly while you twist your torso then slide forward while untwisting?

Or are you talking about when you start off in say ping ma then throw a charp choi or whatever with your back hand while moving into din gee ma and then throw a charp choi with your back hand as you move back into say ping ma ?

[nospam]

Hi.

It's a variation of how the legs are positioned in either stance- more mobile, covers greater distances..spring loaded.

Just curious. Thx

nospam
:cool: