Modern Weapons -Shooting Skillz

[Water Dragon]

Hand gun skillz have got to be my weakest area. It's kinda funny as I live in an area where a large percentage of the population carry, but most can't shoot.

I've been out of training for a while, but it's one of my 2002 goals. What do people reccomend as far as training. I carry a .40 S&W in my pants on the left hand side. I am right handed. I spend a lot of time on drawing. I have a friend who's an NRA nut and has done some Iado. He figured out that Iado is applicable to hand gunning and showed me some basics. I also spend time on "chucking" the weapon. The theory is that we are better a tossing things to someone than shooting them, so if you toss out the gun like you are pitching a softball, you have a better chance of hitting your target at close range.

I planned on going to the range twice a week as well. If, God forbid, I ever end up in that situation again I can tell you this pretty accurately. It's gonna come out of the blue so I need the ability to get the gun out quick and it's gonna be close, most likely between 10-15 feet. All advice is appreciated. Thanks.

[rogue]

Cross draw=bad. In close your arm could be pinned to your body, you're moving the gun in a lateral movement which contrary to cowboy movies is not real good for acurracy.

Sword is not a handgun, the term "nut" applies well to him.

A handgun is not a softball.

Get youself to Gunsight or it's local equivelent.

If the attacker is coming at you with a knife and he's less than 23 feet away, you lose.

Don't take this the wrong way WD, but after what you've posted the thought of you packing a .40 is scary.

GET SOME PROPER TRAINING!!!

[Watchman]

Rogue is correct. Cross draw = bad. He's also correct about getting some proper training.

Just plinking away at a stationary target isn't going to help much in the way of combat handgunning. You need to find a way to train with your weapon under the adrenal response.

There is a very reputable combat handgun instructor in your neck of the woods (and wouldn't you know it, but I forget his name right now). A kung fu brother of mine trains the entire Des Plains, IL PD's SWAT unit, and they all train under this guy.

I'll see if I can dig up his name, or you can just call over to the Des Plains PD, ask for the special response team captain, then ask him to reccomend the firearms intructor their guys see.

In the meantime, check this out:

http://www.nitac.org/Home/home.html

http://www.shoot-at-the-site.com/

[Yung Apprentice]

When it comes to drawing it depends on the body type. If you don't like cross draws and you have long arms you shouldn't carry a hip holster or a shoulder holster, a leg holster is good but harder to conceal unless you a long jacket.(assuming your carring illegally or with a concealed liscence)Ankle holsters are good, for the sole purpose as a back up gun ONLY. (unless your at at a considerable distance) The most useful holster(in my opinion) is also the g a y est lookin. It's the rip away fanny pack. Not very manly looking (puts a crimp on ones style, if they really care, which I do so I don't carry that one)but the best concealed, easy access, don't have to go to far to reach. I like the shoulder holster the best. It suits me. I don't have to reach as far as the hip ( crossing ) I already know I can shoot while crossing. Anything else if someones to close thats what my MAs are for!

[Asia]

I agree with rogue.

When stateside I carry, I am from South Florida known now as Northern Cuba!! I carry a DE, interchangable barrells, Berreta 92D, and a Glock 21. This is opposed to the M16, M4, and SAW I sometimes get to play with.:D Being able to move and shoot is more valuable than just plugging away at a stationary target.


WTF is this "chucking" the gun. No offense WD but that is one of the silliest things I ever heard. (Reminds me of the old Superman TV shows when the bad guy ran out of bullets, that didn't hurt superman, then threw the gun like that would make a difference!) Who in there right minds would throw their gun. Some of my firearms cost $500+ so why in hell would I throw it. What makes you think you will retrieve it afterwards. Someone threw a gun at me I would keep pick it up and pistol whip the idiot! All in all it is NOT a good idea.


The Iai gun thing reminds me of "Ghost Dog" and we know what a crappy movie that was!!!

[Water Dragon]

Sure guys :D

Rogue, you said cross draw = bad. That has more to do with how I carry. Unfortunately, there's situations where I have to carry, ususally in regular street clothes. In Indiana, I also need to make sure the weapon is concealed at all times. I was taught with the standard draw, but I don't feel it fits my needs. I always felt real uncomfortable havivng my sidearm on my side. Plus, seems the **** thing would be popping out from under my shirt every time I moved.

I keep my weapon up front, on my hip. Any suggestions on that are appreciated.

Watchman, if you find that guys neam, let me know. I'm very interested.

Asia, the "chucking" is an old gangster thing. You're not physically throwing the weapon. The logic is that if you end up in that situation, your not gonna have time to think. You "toss" the weapon out instead of pointing and aiming. What I was tlod is that a person's body automatically knows how to throw something right at another person. If you think of tossing the gun instead of pointing, you have a better chance of hitting your target at close range. From the couple of times I've seen guns get pulled, you don't have time to set, aim, and shoot.

And yes, guys, I've been throught he standard basic training. I'm not that dumb.

[Asia]

And yes, guys, I've been throught he standard basic training. I'm not that dumb.

That's a releif!:D

WD,

USCAV used to sell a MOSAD holster that pretty much be clipped anywhere. If they still have find one that fits. It is a handy little thing.

I tend to carry my weapon on my back. I am actually fast drawing this way (but Like I always say what works for me doesn't work for everyone.) My goal is to wear a sports coat carry two 45s and get the cool flair when drawing them, ala Chow Yun Fat!!! (Then again I am a nut! And even nuts can dream. :D)

I'm still not sold on this "chucking" thing but it is your call to use it or not.

[DelicateSound]

Whoever made the quote of "The SAW I sometimes play with", or something like that, all I can say is that I'm glad I don't live in the Wild West with you lot :D

[Asia]

If you are nice, Sound, I will let you play with my toys:D (Don't worry Uncle Sam won't mind!)

[DelicateSound]

Being a traditional English gentleman :D I usually only fight fair!

But seriously, for us Europeans, strict gun laws mean that anything above a gas-powered pellet gun is illegal.

There goes my dream of a Remington 12-gauge pump-action shotgun........... or my Uzi 9mm........

[rogue]

Why the cross draw is bad.
1. To reach the gun your arm must travel 180 degrees across your body.

2. Once you get the gun your arm is flat against your body. If the assailant is close your arm could be pinned. If he fights you for the gun guess which way the wrist flexes? That's right towards you!

3. If you draw the weapon you now have to move your arm back 90 degrees to center.

Considering the average person can move in 20+ feet in about a second you now have them right on top of you. If you don't like the way your gun rides on your hip, try a smaller gun and/or a different rig. Anyways if your gun is too well concealed it's usually hard to get at.

WD, gangsters are not know for accuracy with firearms.

"What I was tlod is that a person's body automatically knows how to throw something right at another person."

You are not throwing something, it's a handgun, you're shooting. Your time would be better spent learning to properly seat the gun in your hand, learning to aquire a good sight picture and squeezing the trigger than worrying about quick drawing. These things alone should get you through a couple of hundred rounds a week at the range.

[Asia]

Again I agree Rogue (mental note: New Year resolution to NOT agree with 'Rogue' so much, even if he's right.:D)

[Water Dragon]

Makes sense Rogue. Any way to keep my shirt from rising up over my pistol if I carry traditionally? Any other alternate carrying places you know of that work? Thanks

[Yung Apprentice]

The onlt time I would use MY gun is as a last resort. If the guy is within twenty feet of me I'd prolly defend myself with MAs, I mean afterall that what I trained for.


GUN- Long Range

MAs-Short Range.


Besides I'm a quick enough draw to where it wouldn't matter if you were twenty feet away. If the average man can cover a distance of twenty feet in one second, I can pull my gun out in less then half. I practice a lot though.

[rogue]

WD, sorry if I was curt, but we're talking about safe use of handguns (safe being you hit your target not me ;) ).

In regards to carrying, let me ask what kind of work environment and what do you wear? If you carry all the time and want to keep it covered you may have to wear a different rig depending upon your clothes.

You may want to look into an alternative for those situations when the gun is causing hassles.

Asia, Watchman has also found himself agreeing with me from time to time. It's the "even a stopped clock is right at least twice a day" syndrome. :D

[tsunami surfer]

Yes cross draws are bad but they do have their place. Are you sitting at a desk or are you riding or driving a car all day. Thats when you want to carry in a cross draw(gun on front of hip). Chucking the gun towards the target causes the weapon to be arcing in a backhanding slash type movement when you want to be punching the weapon to the target in one smooth line. There are 5 steps to presenting the pistol to the target.

1. Establish firing grip while still in holster. If this is not accomplished quickly and smoothly steps 2 thru 4 are are pointless.


2. ROCK AND LOCK. Pull the pistol up and rotate pistol to target while locking elbow to your side. This is a weapon retention move built into the drawing sequence for extreme close quarters shooting.


3. Extend to the low ready. AS the weapon is presented to the target the non firing hand meets the weapon and your two handed grip is established.


4. Align the sights. Bring the weapon up into your line of sight. Front sight crystal clear target and rear sight slightly fuzzy. (The human eye can focus on only one thing at a time) top of front sight even with top of rear sight, even spacing on each side of front sight with rear notch. finger engaging trigger. DESISION TIME.!!!

5. FIRE THE WEAPON!!! If use of force is justified a smooth steady press to the rear keeping the sights aligned to the target. Repeat as nessasary.

It sounds like a lot of stuff going on all at once and it is but with PRACTICE you will get FAST and ACCURATE. Sorry to be long winded. THis technique will work with the pistol on almost all positions on the waist or drop type holster(stapped to leg)

P.S. KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT!!!!!!!!

[Water Dragon]

Hey Rogue. Sure, here are my needs. I don't carry at work, thank goodness I don't have to. At home, I am surrounded by areas full of thugz, gangsters, etc. I pretty much do my own thing, but they are out there, and being a white man in the hood, I am automatically more high profile (hence, the reason I carry)

So basically, chances are I will never need to pull my weapon. Well, I did once but didn't have to fire. So I need to have access to my pistol, but I also don't really want anyone knowing it's there. Kinda like Gong Fu, I know I have it, but no need to advertise. Otherwise I'm asking for a fight.

So I need my pistol to be there, but no in the way. I need to sit down and get back up comfortably, walk around, chill, and put the ositol away when I get home. But if they one time does occur, I need to be ready as well.

That's why I don't have too much confidence in the NRA sponsored programs. Great for cops and target shooters, but I have different needs.

[rogue]

Trying to conceal a gun and still have it handy is always a bi tch, one reason I don't carry. One thing you may want to try if keeping your gun concealed is top priority is to carry a blade or can of pepper spray in your non-shooting hand. This may buy you some time, but of course brings it's own set of problems.

BTW, what are the concealed carry laws like where your are? Are you licensed? How often do you get to the range per month and how many rounds do you go through?

Also you could just move.

I'll ask around and see if any of my instructors have any ideas.

[Water Dragon]

Trying to conceal a gun and still have it handy is always a bi tch, one reason I don't carry. One thing you may want to try if keeping your gun concealed is top priority is to carry a blade or can of pepper spray in your non-shooting hand. This may buy you some time, but of course brings it's own set of problems.

I do. That's what Kun Tao is for. I don't "have" it yet, but it's there for me.

BTW, what are the concealed carry laws like where your are? Are you licensed? How often do you get to the range per month and how many rounds do you go through?

In Indiana, you can carry on your person with a permit (which I have). When in practice, I try to get in about 50-100 rounds per week. Just enough to not be a threat. When I dropped off, I had consistent 7 inch groupings. Terrible for a good shooter, but for an amateur who will being abiding to the center of mass principle, it serves my needs.

Also you could just move.

Not so easy, for various reasons.

I'll ask around and see if any of my instructors have any ideas.

That is very much appreciated. I'm in territory here where I am very much the novice and have no ego when I'm learning. Just a need to understand the principle so I can make it mine.

[rogue]

I talked with one friend who gave up on carrying. This guy is an amazing shot, but he said too many hassles in the civilian world.

[Tigerstyle]

"Reminds me of the old Superman TV shows when the bad guy ran out of bullets, that didn't hurt superman, then threw the gun like that would make a difference!"

Asia,
Didn't Superman kind of dodge the gun as it flew at him in those shows? Maybe Superman knows somehting that we don't... ;)

[sanchezero]

I carry a Glock 23, a midsized semiauto, just behind my right hip (I'm right handed; yes, crossdraws are bad). I carry in an in-the-pants holster and it is plenty concealed even in a T shirt and shorts. Tho, I can't play pool w/o it sticking out ;)

Seriously, you can get away with alot more 'unsightly' bulges now that everyone is wearing cell phones. And if your fit you can conceal even a large gun easily.

And that 23 foot rule - its what has been developed from analysis of sh!tloads of actual law enforcement encounters. If some one is closing on you you need appx 23 feet to present your weapon. And thats with trained guys who don't have to dig in their undies to pull it out. Of course, I'm sure alot of them are big, fat alchoholics, too :D

[Asia]

Asia, Didn't Superman kind of dodge the gun as it flew at him in those shows? Maybe Superman knows somehting that we don't...

Hmmm your right! Why did superman dodge the guns?:confused: Maybe there is more to this 'chucking' that I thought. I mean if the man of steel feared it then it must be valid!!! LOL

[rogue]

TTT

Bak Mei and Legend were talking guns so I'm bouncing this up.