Fa Jing

[Pong Lai]

In my training, Fa Jing was often emphasized in both the contexts of drills and in the implementation of performing the numerous techniques and applications of just about everything learned.
It can make a block seem as if an attack and places the umph, in ones strike. Allowing one not to be totally relient on his/her upper body strength or lack of. Though of course, some sort of an upper build, can enhance its effect. From the few torunaments and schools I have visited, I have seen little Fa Jing implemented or expressed in ones moves, whether exhibiting forms or sparring. It is kind of like taking out the tones in Chinese, becomes monotone.

Is Fa Jing just not shown or instructed in most schools?
How is Fa Jing explained and or expressed (instructed) by your teacher(s).
No need to go into detail, but what type of drills would you show a student to develop Fa Jing?
Is Fa Jing often required (when defending or attacking) to perform while conducting two person drills, sparring?

This is going back to the basics, but isn't that where and how we all progress...:cool:

[mantis108]

I hear you. In order to do Fa Jing, one must first know (correct perception) what is Jing. Most of the older generation Sifus were good at what they do but not good at teaching what they do. So it relies on the students to learn the hard way. Once it is learned, it is hard to expect them to share openly and freely. So, you end up having people teaching the moves without the jing. BTW, Jing can not be achieved by practicing the forms alone. Although, some forms are designed to do that (ie Hung Gar Tit Sin Kuen, Chen style Taiji Quan, etc... ), most of the time forms are expressions of the already acquired jing from the practice of gong. The answer to that is through a holistic program will then allow a person to acquired jing and be able to fa jing.

Mantis108

[Pong Lai]

Mantis 108;

Your absolutely right. My teacher had studied with certain teachers just to pick up Jing. Not really known how to be taught by some not understood by others.

What do you mean by "holistic program"?

We were also shown and taught the difference, though subtle, between Chen Tai Chi and PM "Fa" Jing.

Happy New Year

[mantis108]

Hi Pong Lai,

Glad to hear that your teacher worked on Fa Jing with you. :)

Holistic program means that the program totally addresses the 6 pillars of martial arts. The 6 pillars are cardio, strength, flexibility, coordination, impact and meditation. Take TJPM for example:

If we need a crack of the whip type of jing in our moves rather than the swinging bat type of jing (there are many types of jing). Also we need to do 3 to 5 moves in a row meaning we need a muscloskeletal structure that can handle this type of stress. ;) So to that end we train:

Cardio: So that the muscle don't tired out before we finish the 3 or 5 moves. No declining speed due to muscle fatique.

Strength: so that we have the explosive contraction to express the "crack" not just once but 3 or 5 time in a row.

flexibility: The extention of whip depends on the range of motion

coordination:Whether the whip has good form or not (hence the efficiency) depends on this.

impact: the sucess of our strikes depend on our "solid" Skeletal structure overcome the opponent's structure. Impact training help to achieve that.

Meditation: We need our mental faculty to perceive correctly. (Timing, distancing, etc...)

All this components must come together as one to produce the Jing.

Take the simple "Fung Sau Sup Jee Tui" as example. We want the fung sau, the cross punch and the kick finish at the same moment and we want to hear the snap as the punch and kick arrived at "target". The snap (sounds like a thud) is the expression of the jing. The quick jerk and pull power at the initation of the fung sau is also expression of jing. If we understand this is achieve through a relax yet tuned musculoskeletal structure and well timed plus well distanted release, then we start to understand jing. What's left is to apply this knowledge to the rest of the forms.

Regards

Mantis108

[Pong Lai]

Never broke Jing down into a "holistic" program.

I suppose the 6 pillars you stated are what we expect to be established at the time of basic development.

Most serious MA have all 6 pillars you listed but still lack the ability to "Fa" the "Jing". This is of course based on my observation of the schools & practitioners I have come across.
Jing and the ability to "Fa" or express it, is not rocket science.
However, by being able to express it correctly, one can place himself on or close to equal ground with his power, to a physically stronger but Jingless opponent. Its implementation and most applications must be first shown and exampled by an instructor. Usually by the time you have completed your basic drilling, you have developed the understanding of Jing and how to express it. If you are able to do so then, you can easily translate it to your forms and fighting.

Holistic program is definitely the basis to "Jing" development. Implementation? Not explained simply but an explosive "whip" type Jing appliable to most techniques such as Guo Lo Tsai, Why Gwa Sou, Tan Tui, Dung Tui, Dung Ta, etc:

Chi Kua / Dung Tui / Jwan Yao / Diow Jian.
Lift the Pelvic / Pop the Calves (leg) / Whirl the waist / Extend the shoulder.

Thanks Mantis 108. Always interested in learning more.
Also interested in hearing others experiences.

[mantis108]

Pong Lai

Interesting topic and I enjoy learning from you and others this way as well.

You Wrote:

"Holistic program is definitely the basis to "Jing" development. Implementation? Not explained simply but an explosive "whip" type Jing appliable to most techniques such as Guo Lo Tsai, Why Gwa Sou, Tan Tui, Dung Tui, Dung Ta, etc:

Chi Kua / Dung Tui / Jwan Yao / Diow Jian.
Lift the Pelvic / Pop the Calves (leg) / Whirl the waist / Extend the shoulder. "

I hear you in my failure in addressing the mechanics of Fa Jing directly. However, I don't intent to turning on the tape without having the water supply behind it neither. That's why my post serves more as a caveat. I stress basic because I feel that's what the problem is. Today Kung Fu is alarmingly lacking in this area. Many Kwoon today are but modern WuShu gym which hardly have any impact or meditation (Qigong) training. In essence, there is hardly any different with any western sports. Doing Fa Jing without applying it on an opponent or an object (pads or whatever) is not going to bring about the understanding of it usage or full potential. You are right about drills. They are important in the development.

On the technical note:

Let's see what the west and the east do in delivering a straight punch.

West
pivot the foot/feet (balls of the foot)
twist the hips
snap the shoulders

East
Chi Kua - lift the Pelvic
Dung Tui - Pop the Calves (legs)
Jwan Yao - whirl the waist
Diow Jian - Extend the shoulder

You will get:

Pivot the foot must be done with pop the calves (legs) otherwise power generationed can not be delivered to the fist. Also weight transfer will be compromised. This is included in Bo Fa (method of footwork)

Twist the hips can not be done properly without lifting the pelvic. If done correctly, it will result in whirl the waist - amplifying power and putting the body behind the punch. This is included in the Sun Fa (method of the torso)

Snap the shoulders same as extend the shoulder - actually letting the punch hit THROUGH the target. This is included in the Sau Fa (method of the upperlimbs)

Just thought I put in my 2 cents. :) Thanks for sharing your views.

Mantis108

[Pong Lai]

Mantis 108

Thanks for the more detailed explanation of how to put the "Fa" in the "Jing". I
t is hard to believe that out of all the participants only you and I are interested in chatting about such an dominating and intricate part of the "Martial" training as "Jing".


How about the rest of the KFO PM practitioners? Ba Ji? Ba Kua?
Wing Chun?

Tainan Mantis Shr Shong.
Surprised you have not jumped in.

[Buby]

Hi fellas,

Nice lil convo. you guys are having here. I don't train mantis, so I hope you don't mind me asking a ? or 2.

Mantis108 - Would you say that in the states there is more concentration on body mechn. and less so on sam gae?

Also, how important of a role would you say the mind and spirit play in the developemnt and usuage of ging?

Thanks in advance!

Buby

[mantis108]

Hi buby,

Do join in, the more the merrier. :D

First a little story. I once saw a clip on leopard hunting on the open field and then took the prey with it to the tree top. It had to preform 3 things: High speed sprinting to chase and strike the prey, efficient and flexible maneuvering to grapple and strangle the prey, and Haul itself plus the prey to the tree top with its claws. All these time it has but one set of muscloskeletal structure (being on all fours is far more limiting than human), yet it performed 3 functions - very very different functions. To me that's "someone" that "knows" jing. The leopard's body is tuned to perform jing. Can we do that?

Humans evolved to the point that we have lost the majority of our animal side. The jing is not "one" with us anymore. We are so used to modern appliances that we tend to believe we actually have a switch to "turn on" and "turn off" jing. The problem is that we see the mind/spirit as the switch. Animals properly don't think or feel that way, yet they naturally have jing. We on the other hand "think/feel" that we have to switch it on and off. However, where the problem is there lies also the solution. The answer is through correct perception of the total person both physical and metaphysical. When we execute a technique at full speed without thinking "I use this technique" and the we can "feel" we are being one the execution. We then start to comprehend the use of jing or, rather jing is manifest naturally. Take the tips that Pong Lai has given and drill it with a partner to that point. The physical and the metaphysical (mind/spirit) are but one ecology. They interact with each other. They are equal but there is no switch.

Hope I have addressed your question

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I believe our views compliment each other quite well. I am very glad that you are open for sharing. Thanks. :)

I also hope others will join in soon.

Mantis108

[Buby]

Thank you for your reply.

I also train what Pong Lai is talking about. In YKM we call it luk ging, 6 powers/body parts working as one. We also have certain drills that train us to develope ging in our strikes.

Do you guys do roller bar work?

What do you think is the biggest diffence between a boxer's ging and a kung fu man's ging? After all, boxer's train in building good body mechn. too.

Thanks again fellas!

Buby

[mantis108]

Hi Buby

You are welcome. :)

I think there is not much of a different when it comes to jing, after all we are all ho mosapians. ;) The only difference is that boxer only apply jing with limited tools (4 punches) while Kung Fu has to apply it to a wide variaties of tools. There is also one edge that the boxer has is that there is a very close relationship with the coach, the trainer and the sparring partner. It is a team effort in the practical aspect. The result is far more desirable than most of the Kung Fu clubs today.

Mantis108

[Pong Lai]

Buby:

Sorry I have not heard of roller bar work. What is it?

I have not seen everyone box, but I have not seen one utilize jing to the degree or way I am talking about. I feel a boxer's Jing is somewhat inconsistent. AT times you see it, many times you do not.

The six pillars Mantis 108 described are no different, the implementation of the Jing or how it is applied, is. Jing adds to the explosiveness to an attack or defense.

[Five Swords]

I hope you guys don't mind a question from a novice when it comes to fa-jing. If you have grasped the body mechanics necessary to generate fa jing but are small in size you may still not have sufficient power to make your techniques applicable. Other than striking objects such as bagwork are there a specific set of muscle groups to strengthen to increase your fa jing and what kind of exercises would you do? You may have answered my question partially already in your previous posts so again forgive me for being an ignoramus. Also, one last question. For a technique such as a double palm strike in a forward leaning stance where you want the force of both palms to be focused straight ahead how do you manipulate the waist so the force is even in both palms? I hope that question makes sense! Thanks in advance for any answers anyone has!

[mantis108]

"If you have grasped the body mechanics necessary to generate fa jing but are small in size you may still not have sufficient power to make your techniques applicable."

That's exactly my point why we need a holistic program. In the case of a small physique person, it is an up hill battle all the time. That's why putting the Kung in Kung Fu is important.

" Other than striking objects such as bagwork are there a specific set of muscle groups to strengthen to increase your fa jing and what kind of exercises would you do?"

Constantly drilling forms (solo and partner) is really the best. Beware of confusing strength with jing. Strength training in the program is mainly to achieve the reponsiveness in the muscles. We want the muscles to contract explosively. That is what strength training can help improve. Not to mention it's look good to have muscles. :D

" For a technique such as a double palm strike in a forward leaning stance where you want the force of both palms to be focused straight ahead how do you manipulate the waist so the force is even in both palms? I hope that question makes sense!"

Truely exactly question. This bring us back to CMA. *thumbs up*
Essentially, any striking action is a weight transfer of the mass (mass perceived as energy). I am not sure what leaning forward stance that you are referring to but if you are thinking 60-40 or bow and arrow (hiking stance in mantis) , then I will have this to say. Far too many people confusing a push with a strike in the double palm position. Out of the many who "push", they push with the hands/palm only. Their timing and body mechanics are off because the basics were not polished. That's is why basics are important. That's the responsiblity of the "team". How to put the body (leading with the hips/waist) into the strikes has to do with how good your understanding of your stance. You might have worked on the stance for a long time but you might not understand your stance as good as you think you have. That's why the old masters keep saying mind your stances at all times. BTW, if you have been struck by a conditioned palm, you know it feels like an iron plate even though it doesn't seem to be travelling far and fast. Imagine an iron plate attached to a steel whip. BTW, Bruce Lee's Tao of JKD is quite excellent in explaining the difference between pushing and striking and how to remedy that.

Regards

Mantis108

[Buby]

You have out done yourself again. Great post.

Thanks!

Buby

[flem]

five swords
the jing for double palm is created without the waist, or to be more precise, the waist is only a minor player in the action, whereas in single hand skills it is primary. the jing for double palm, rolls thru the body just like a whip. if you lift your hand to wave at someone, that is the exact motion. you will know that you are performing it resonably right if you seem to have to maintain contol of your head, as it tries to whip also- alot of people do it incorrectly for this reason- it makes you feel like you look stupid.
as for increasing strength without losing jing, it is necessary to gain overall strength without increasing one area over the others. bodybuildin
gd defeats the purpose because the musculature is worked seperately, olympic and powerlifting however can have some possitive results. the best "weight" exercise is the clean and press, as it utilizes the entire body as a unit. the absolute best exercise that i have found involves using a log, a big one, about 5 or 6 feet tall- stood on end one partner "passes" it to the other using various stances and hand techniques. cathing it teaches proper stance, rooting, and footwork.

[BeiTangLang]

I have a point / question to interject here;
How can one fully express Fa Jing in a form without damaging joints? I believe that this is why many times it is not seen. Expressing this kind of energy is very hard on a body if there is nothing to "take the energy" away from the strike.
Thoughts?
~BTL

[flem]

beitanglang
the only way thet tour joints can get injured is by over extending. bruce lee said in the tao of jeet kune do, that if you are already runnig as fast as you can, you should not feel like you should be running faster. this applies directly. i for one have hyperextended elbows and early on had to make a conscious effort not to extend a punch past straight- because without looking straight felt like straight when my joint locked, but un reality was beyond. i beleive tai chi jing to be superior in it's training method ie. working the skills slowly for a long time- this allows one to understand their limits before damage can be done. i also believe that using the hands as kicking targets prevents joint damage- karate stylists do not utilize this technique and i know alot of karate players with damaged knees.

[Five Swords]

I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge! One aspect I would like to hear comment on is the recoil of the waist in the opposite direction of the strike just as it is making impact. This would be the same effect as the cracking of a whip. Mantis 108 alluded to this earlier when he mentioned that there were different types of jing.

That final recoil of the waist seems to be a key element to transferring the majority of the force into the target. I say "majority" of the force because to an outside observer a punch executed by a practitioner using primarily muscular strength with a good portion of it relying on muscles in the arm may appear powerful, and in fact a great deal of energy is being used, but much of that energy will not be trasferred into the target. The fa jing method of striking by using the proper sequence of muscle relaxation and contraction as well as all the other essentials that others have mentioned is a much more efficient way channeling more of the force of your strike into your target and also produces far less re-absortion of the force back into your own body.

Okay. after all that jabbering on my part here is my question:

I realize that this snap back of the waist should for the most part be a fairly natural reaction. However it can be difficult to use this type of jing in certain stances and periods of transition and can definitely give your forms a different flavor. I have often heard that one should strive to make the turning of the waist smaller and more internalized as you progress so the waist movement becomes virtually undetectable. How is that physically possible? Where does the power come from? Is it a matter of storing up jing in the tan tien?

I don't want to get into a long discussion about chi and internal energy because that is way over my head and I don't have the patience for many of the internal arts. (No offense at all meant to any of the internal stylists reading this! Much of it is just too meticulous for me at this stage in my training).

I suppose much of it comes from greater connectivity and ablity to root and greater self-awareness of stances etc.. Much like what Mantis 108 mentioned earlier.

I would love to hear your comments and input regarding this! Thanks in advance!

[Pong Lai]

Bei Tang Lang:

There should be no (long-term) injury to any Martial Arts practicioner if they have been correctly instructed and practiced as so!
If Jing is expressed correctly as Mantis 108 described, like a whip, no injury will develop.
After a whip is cracked it does not come boomer - ranging back to you, but is freed of tension, allowing for an immediate second, third crack.

The movements that are part of the "fa" of the "Jing", (as Mantis 108 explained on the previous page) will eliminate any threat of injury and allow ultimate power. For instance, If you do not pivot the foot at the same time as you snap the calve and turn the waist, it might result in a popped knee. By pivoting the foot, a natural movement will then occur allowing for proper and full rotation of the waist. There should be no pressure or pull on any part of the knee. If you do not "extend the shoulder" at the end of the pucnh, you would chance having your elbow joint stressed.

Most practicioners, Chinese or Western whom have bad knees, are a result of improper stance work and transition movements.

Five Swords;
Not all Chinese are small, many have large builds. Fa Jing is the equalizer. By possessing the ability to Fa Jing, you are packing a KO every time you stirke.

Practicing how to Fa Jing should begin by over emphasizing the drills described earlier. Make each move deliberate and obvious. As time passses, the movements will become shorter and quicker, but will not sacrifice any of the power.

A basic one person stationary drill could be punching side to side.
Stand in a horse stance / right hand out in front grabbing / lift the pelvic forward / simutaneously :snap the right calve; pivot the right foot to the left 45 degree; turning the waist to the front whereas your left foot toes, knee, and belly button are in a line/pull in left grab to your "Bow Jou" position and punch with right hand to the front side. You would then do same on other side. This is abasic that can help with all aspects. There are more of these types, difficult (maybe I am too lazy to type it all out) to describe on line, that work the whole action or just certain parts such as popping the calves.

[mantis108]

Thanks Buby. :D I try.

First off, I am so glad that the questions that pop up so far are really related to CMA. Then, a story. We practice the whipchain a lot. There was one point the manufacturer of the weapon used some cheap metal for the links. Needless to said they don't hold and the chain can't be used. So we have to reinforce the links. This is much the same in the case of Fa Jing. Frankly, the inability to explain Fa jing forces a lot of people resolved to adapte Kung Fu Mysticism. Hopefully a bunch of jagons and the questions would be like water over duck's back. Personally, I believe in details and that's all it is. The weak links in Fa Jing are the understanding and applying balance, vertical vecter, and space-time continuum. All these are but Kung Fu 101, but not a lot of people pay much attention to them, and they wonder why KF suck? It isn't KF that suck but their foundations suck so their buildings are lucky to be standing up at best. How could good Kung Fu evolve from a poor (next to nothing) foundation? So again work on the basics.

Balance is perhaps the most boring, yet the best and easiest to correct and improve. Many people chose to skip this and those are the ones who complain KF sucks. Without a good understanding of this, the talk about weight (mass as energy) transfer is futile. If you are not aware of where your weight resides, you are not going to be able to transfer it peroid! So you must be aware of this. An excellent drill is the San Ti Sik of Xing Yi. From the Taiji to the liang Yi and to San Ti, that's is IMHO one of the the best drills to understand balance. It is no wonder GM Sun Luk Tong regard it the most important if not the essence of Xing Yi.

Vertical vector bascially is the body structure aligned and on the move (mobilized balance) piror to the impact. Most people thought of striking as an horizontal vector and disregard the vertical that's where the problem is - missing details again. It should be perceived as an dynamic event more so than just a concept or an object being observed. I like to call this the dynamic centerline. It is like the bow that's fully draw. Not linear but curved. Most people understand this, if not , please refer to Pong Lai's and my previous posts. Pong Lai again pointed another very important yet mostly left out detail in his last post. That is the toes! I rather refer it to as the balls of the feet but the toes are important in this as well. As the moment of truth, the impact moment, the toes grabs the ground like grabbing the nine hells (to borrow the old texts, lol...) You might wonder why is this important. Here the sweet part. As you grab the floor, you (the body) automatically pops the body weight to the balls of the feet. In the old days, this is referred to as Diu Yung Chun (lifting the main acupoint in the middle of the feet.) This is natural because your body is designed that way. It is not a secret but a detail. Then the dung tui as Pong Lai pointed out kicks in. The calves are major stablizers to maintain this dynamic. They are all related. Plain and simple. No Chi talk here because there is no need for it. further up would be the waist which is the continuum of the bow - the dynamic centerline. I will discuss this in the space-time continuum next.

This is more or less addressing what Five Swords is looking for. There are more than just the Whip type of Jing otherwise how would we be able to explain MA such as Muay Thai? Surely, no one would doubt they have Jing if they have encountered them. They too use a lot of the "waist". Note that waist is actually hips joints and the waist muscles. This is where most KF misuse of the term waist. It is not just muscles, which is what the problem of localizing begins and the globel coherence fails. The dynamic centerline is muscloskeletal. In Taiji the open and closing of the Kwa is key to silk reeling jing. That's basically saying we must pay attention to the muscloskeletal continuum not just the waist muscle (that could turn out to be Lik- strenght). Even a very slight opening and closing (cast and reel motion) of the hip joints, which of course can not be achieved without the waist muscles (the abs and the ducts), can do a lot of damage. Try doing sun punch from the standard Wing Chun position with the dynamic centerline contiuum (with all the details) that is explained (don't try it on the plastered walls, your landlord won't appreciate this as much as you would. lol...). Remember don't push a strike; it won't work! When you achieve the feeling that you are literally "hammering" (re: iron fist like a hammer) the wall or whatever object from that position, you have understood the vertical vecter very well. You can then apply the same contiuum and feeling to your strikes. I was going to explain the space-time continuum further with the Thai machnics but I am kind of tired of typing right now. So I will do it in the next post. Sorry. Hope you enjoy this one.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Space-time continuum here means the awareness of applying energy through the dynamic centerline. Without the awareness one is but moving and not being martial with the arts. This awareness in also very important in Mantis. Unlike other MA systems there are a lot of moves in Mantis that requires continuous strikes on single point base support or even aerial. These types of strikes can not be satisfied by just the silk reeling jing along. I find the best illustration is the flying knee (double one) of Muay Thai. This is not to say we can't use examlpes in Mantis. In fact, there is a flying knee in TJPM Kung Lik Kuen but I thought I would use a more commonly know illustration. I am also sure that most people are familiar with the double flying kick which is more or less the same as the knee except it is longer range. The first knee (while having a base) is not a problem in utilizing the Silk reeling jing. But to do the second knee, which is aerial, we must do our best to understand the Space-time continuum. The second strike (of the other knee) must capitalize on the first strike's recoil which means the recoil is the new dynamic centerline and so on so forth. It is the awareness (to the details) that keep the ever changing dynamic centerline alive. Recoil is actually a poor word to use because it gives the impression of drawing (telegraphing). However it isn't about drawing and this must be studied well. In such a case, as in many others, the hip waist muscloskeletal continuum is most significant. It (the hip) pivots back and forth and side to side but again not localized or discounted from the core (spine-back). Also proper breathing technique helps here (Chi talks here. lol...) ;) This is also the main reason why in CMA good posture is stressed otherwise the slacks will degenerate the posture and will cause the lost of jing.

A side note - the way Chen style Taijiquan's solo Fa Jing is safe to uses and should not cause any damage to joints. An experienced MAist can reproduce the same fa jing feeling that is acquired through the practice with a partner or object in their solo forms. It is not the same case vice versa.

Mantis108

[Five Swords]

Thank you Mantis 108 for taking the time to explain things in such detail. I must confess that for a while I had considered many of the traditional arts and many of their training methods impractical and outdated. Thanks to knowledgeable practitioners like yourself and especially Pong Lai my viewpoints have sinced changed and I definitely have a greater appreciation for the traditional methods. Thanks again!

[mantis108]

Hi Five Swords,

Your are most welcome. :D Thanks for the compliments *blush*

Glad that you enjoy them. I hear you about losing faith on Kung Fu. Good Kung Fu are out there just that it's harder to find. I am glad that Pong Lai has helped you reconsider the wisdom behind the old stuff. :)

Regards

Mantis108