Wing Chun Newbie question 1: Which hand goes in front?

[IronFist]

Hey :)

In Wing Chun, when the left foot is forward in a fighting stance, does it matter which hand is forward? I got a few WC videos (I'm cooler than ralek) and usually he's got opposite hand in front, so like, left foot in front = right hand in front and vice versa. But once in a while it's the other way.

Is there a standard way, or is whatever works? Is one way more balanced or something?

Thanks,

Iron

[CanadianBadAss]

If there’s a foot forward you’re not using the "wing chun" stance. And if you're not using the proper WC stance, you're already compromising your balance, why would you care about how your hands are positioned.

[yuanfen]

What?!!!!! There are many wing chun stances including one foot forward. When you turn from YGKYM you have one foot in fron and one in the back. At the beginning until you internalize balance, root and stance you can begin trying opposite hand and foot- later it wont matter- either hand can be ahead of the other
when you become aware of the unity of your own body.

[CanadianBadAss]

The reason the one foot is in front of the other is because you've just turned. Why would you enter a fight already turned?

[yuanfen]

Canadianbad ass: Sometimes to enter. Lots of footwork involve one foot in front of the other. the mok jong form is full of it. You do it in chum kiu and biu jee and even in moving chi sao.

[IronFist]

Uh, yeah.

Well, I know some people say they fight from YGYKM, but a lot of people say they don't either. Chung K. Chow <sp> on his tape says that wing chun fighting is done with one foot in front. Also, Augustine Fong has a ton of techniques not done in YGKYM. That series says that YGKYM is used for training but not for fighting.

Hence, my question...

Hmmmm...

Iron

[Paul]

how do you step forwards or backwards if you don't put one foot in front of the other? If you are really fighting someone it's doubtful that they will remain in exactly the same place while you unload on them.

[IronFist]

how do you step forwards or backwards if you don't put one foot in front of the other?

Dude, you hop around :) That way, both of your feet stay side by side the whole time. Duh :P

Seriously tho, can someone answer my question please?

Iron

[S.Teebas]

Which hand goes in front?

Doesn't Matter. Either hand is equal (idealistically!) when you are using structure/centre/focusing as your power source - as opposed to muscular force.

One thing i think is important to know is that you must use strucure if you want to overcome people stronger than yourself. For the first few years of my training i heard people always talk about structure this, structure that...but i never could understand what it ment (i may have no idea what it means now!). But the important thing is you keep in mind that this is where its at!

It's like that saying "From one thing; know ten thousand things!" because when you understand structure properly it's exactly like that saying... ie you understand many things.

hmm... reading over that confused me! :) good luck everyone else. :P

S.Teebas

[relax]

Originally posted by Paul
how do you step forwards or backwards if you don't put one foot in front of the other? If you are really fighting someone it's doubtful that they will remain in exactly the same place while you unload on them.


Hmm... seems like you don't know the normal shift step in wing chun?

moving forward - push off from the back leg and slide with the front

this way you are always in the same stance

moving backward - opposite.

purchase some videos it'll show some basic stuff.

[anerlich]

Iron,

generally speaking, I believe it is best to have the same hand forward as the foot that is forward while "en guarde" or while entering, assuming that you have time to get prepared this way.

While, generally speaking, you try to stay as front on as possible so both arms can be used, the arm and shoulder on the foot-forward side are generally closer to the opponent, meaning that you can bring it into action offensively or defensively slightly quicker than you can the other side. Split seconds can and do mean the difference between success and failure.

As boxers know, the lead arm also requires less commitment to the technique and leaves fewer gaps than does the rear/cross arm.

Once you start trying to hit each other though, you need to use both arms in concert and independently. And if you don't have the luxury of time to shape up, just do whatever you have to from wherever you are.

The ways of stance and stepping vary widely between WC branches, so don't let anyone tell you there's only one way to do either.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While a very good basic approach would be to have the same hand forward as the lead leg, while doing Wu Sau/Man Sau this approach must be flexible and adaptable to the opponents positioning. In many instances it is a good idea to mirror the opponents position. In other words if he/she has thier right leg forward then you should place your right leg forward. There are exceptions to this but it is a good starting point to adopt.

Another thing to consider is the technique being used and the way in which ones stance supports that technique. For example; when performing a Bong Sau you would rarely want to lead with the same leg as the arm being used. You would find the structure of the Bong is weaker in this position. You would be far better to lead with the opposite leg. However, when performing a Taun Sau the opposite is true. If you are doing a Right Taun Sau then you would want to lead with your right leg.

If you look to the forms they will guide you in the proper footwork. Look at the CK and you will see which leg leads while performing the Bong Sau and step. Then look at the Wooden Dummy and check out which leg is in front when doing the Tauns and which is in front when doing the Bongs.

To summarize;

Lead leg is dependint on opponents position; ideally your position should mirror theirs. However there are exceptions to this rule.

Right Bong Sau=Left lead leg

Right Taun Sau=Right lead leg

No matter which leg is forward you should still be able to utilize both hands to attack and defend.

Thre are exceptions to every rule ;)

Peace,

Dave

[S.Teebas]

For example; when performing a Bong Sau you would rarely want to lead with the same leg as the arm being used. You would find the structure of the Bong is weaker in this position

I disagree with this. Why do you think that the structure becomes less stable?


S.Teebas

[Sihing73]

Hello S.Teebas,

While you can perform the Bong Sau with the same leading leg the structure is not as strong as the opposite. You can try this out for yourself. Take a Bong Sau with the right arm and lead with the right leg. Now have someone apply pressure to the Bong. You will find that it is harder to channel the incoming force through the body and to the ground. Now if you do it with the left leg forward and try the same thing then you will have a much easier time of directing the force into the ground. Again, I would point you to the Dummy and CK and ask that you look at how the legs and stance are in relation to the arms. Don't missunderstand what I am saying and think that I am advocating meeting force with force :( . However, if one is going to utilize ones structure to deal with incoming force one should use the most efficient method. Having the Bong and Lead leg as the same side is not the most, IMHO, efficient method. It can be done but it is a poor second to doing it with the opposite leg forward. Consider another thing also, if you have the Right Bong and Right leg forward and the pressure is too jmuch and you need to shift wouldn't it be better to do so fi the other leg were in front? If you have the same leg forward and have to turn you can easily give up the centerline while it is easier to maintain the centerline with the opposite leg forward.

Just some thoughts, you are welcome to disagree and your approach could be valid for you. I have found this approach to be valid for me. ;)

Peace,

Dave

[IronFist]

Thanks for the replies, anerlich and sihing :)

Iron

[whippinghand]

Both hands.

[anerlich]

The bon sao / which foot forward thing is of course pretty theoretical. If you manage to redirect incoming with a bon with either foot in any position, then your bon worked. To be able to decide in a fight which foot you want to have forward when you need to use a bon is luxury indeed.

I feel the use of the bon S73 discussed is a matter of strategy and intent. I don't necessary agree that the forms dictate which is the better structure, either.

The WC I have been taught wants to use bon to get to the outside of the lead arm (not exclusively, but...). IMHO it is easier, not harder, to shift/circle outside the incoming attack with the same foot forward than back. If you are outside the opp's arm, he can't steal your centre, though you can get around his.

We do a bon sao larp sao drill with both partners having the same foot and arm forward designed to develop the necessary attributes to use this strategy effectively.

I agree that the opposite side forward does allow one to "dig in" more behind the bon, but this is not always required as bon is most frequently used as a means of redirection. You can only turn so far towards the punch coming in this way before your structure gets twisted, necessitating a step.

While much of our forms, and the dummy, use bon from a "side neutral" position, the energy goes forward along the central line, more along the direction of the "same" foot rather than the opposite foot.

To emphasise, the structure used must support the strategy employed. S73's strategies may differ from those I employ, and his structure may support his strategies at least as well as I believe my structure supports my own.

I agree with WH that both hands should be forward, as opposed to both out to the sides or one tucked behing your back, and that the intent of that phrase not be trivialised. But most styles tend to shape up with one hand or the other further forward, so that there are in effect two lines of defense.

ONce again, it will be a wonderful thing if you are given time to snap into a preparatory stance when you are attacked. Oh to be so lucky.

[Sihing73]

Hi anerlich,

There are no absolutes in any endeavor including Wing Chun. My exposure to one of William Cheungs students would favor using the same lead hand as the lead foot to include using Bong Sau. Of course, this was done more with a step forward then with a turn. But then again that could have just been this persons preference :)

If you read my post you will see that I never said having the Bong forward with the same leg could not work, only that the opposite is better for "digging in" as you put it. I also stated that I do not advocate fighting force with force. Still, in my approach, strategy if you will, I prefer the Bong to be done opposite of the lead leg. My personal preference if you will. In a perfect world I would be able to do this every time, unfortunately in the real world I sometimes end up with the wrong foot forward and have to make do. The Bong is indeed a transitionary movement which redirects force and becomes something else, most often Taun or Lop. Consider this; if you chose to transition from Bong to Taun or Lop which position will compliment the force and angles Same lead leg or opposite lead leg? In this medium it is difficult at times to explain fully. However if one trains to have a base of power from the center of the body based on a triangle then the opposite leg for Bong Sau fits in nicely with that "strategy". If you choose to go from Bong to Lop or Taun you may find the angle is not there without a step or a turn for the technique to work most efficiently. In this case I would rather shift my body then need to take a step, again my preference.

All in all an interesting topic with many possibilities :)

Peace,

Dave

[anerlich]

S73,

I take your point regarding the bon to tan or larp transition.

However, in TWC we generally avoid moving from a bon to a tan or larp with the same arm, we'd prefer to use the bon to pass it to the other arm. IMO there is a weak point in the transition where the arm forms neither bon nor tan and is this open to exploitation. While this sequence exists in some dummy sets, we see this as two movements against two separate attacks rather than working against the same arm. They appear in the set for continuity of the set rather than as an actual combat application.

Reconsidering, it may be our combo of the same leg forward bon that contributes to the weakness in the transition, which is why we avoid it ... your posts have got me thinking.

Anything that makes me look at my training from a new angle is valuable. So thanks for that. Best wishes for 2002 also.

Cheers

AN

[Sihing73]

Hi anerlich,

It could all come down to the strategy one decides to build his or her Wing Chun on. There are different roads to the same destination. Remember, I am not saying I am right or wrong just offerring another view. If this gets any of us thinking then it has value. Having an open mind is one of the greatest assetts one can have. This is what this board is for the exchange of various knowledge along with the opportunity to consider other ways.

I wish you the best for the New Year as well.

Peace,

Dave

[fa_jing]

regarding your confusion with the on gard position, I think you need to understand that there are two basic variation on the stance, one is your lead-foot/lead-arm same stance, the other is a sitting horse (side) stance where your stance is basically a 90-degree rotation of your head and your stick your arms out to the side instead of forward. -FJ

[sanchezero]

About the lead hand...

It doesn't really matter which hand you choose as your lead hand if you are facing your opponent. If you're facing then both hands are gonna have equal mobility and the hand you have forward just determines the technique you'll respond with. For instance - left lead may lop vs a punch where a right lead could pak vs the same punch. The questions are almost moot 'cause you shouldn't just stand there anyway but chase 'em down and wallop the hell outta them :D

About the bong/lead foot...

I think the bong sao works best when it comes above the weighted foot. In VT, we tend to keep our weighted foot back as much as possible to keep the front leg free to kick or trip or avoid sweeps yadda yadda. Obviously, you're gonna weight that leg at some point and it may occur at the same time you have to play a bong sao. Oh well :p