What is tao Te Ching?? Book of changes?

[Kristoffer]

Tao Te Ching - book of changes.. Is that the correct title and what is it about? I've heard so much about it, but I dont understand. Please explain. Thank you.

peace

[mantis108]

Tao Te Ching (Classics of the way and the virtue) and I Ching (Classics of Change or the boof of Change) are 2 different books.

Tao Te Ching is the earliest Taoist Classics. It is Taoism as a philosophy not as religion. Basically, it is a book on Chinese worldview and thoughts on philosophy and government (what it represents) by Lao Tze.

I Ching is again a collection of Chinese worldview, thoughts, philosophy, and wisdom. It is perhaps the most complex and profund book in Chinese study and is even older than the oldest version of the Bible (by one year?).unfortunately, most studies on it today are still pretty limited to its function as a tool of divination. Contrary to many believes, it is not a Taoist text. But it is studied mostly by Confuscians and Taoists.

Mantis108

[Kristoffer]

thx

[tnwingtsun]

Not trying to flame but could you plz explain to me what is the Tao?



Just wanting to learn also...........................................




BTW,haven't seen you in awhile.



Happy New Year:)

[Kristoffer]

the tao is nothing but still, everything. it is the softest and the hardest. i think.

[David Jamieson]

get thee to a library :D

the "tao" is the "natural way of all things in the universe".

It is the ebb and flow of existance and the base reality that lies behind the perceptions we hold of manifest things.

The Tao Te Ching, is a collection of reflections on this reality compiled over a very long period of time and attributed to Lao Tzu (Tze) and also his disciple Chuang Tzu (Tze) who was the person who it is said started the compilation of ruminations.

Lao Tzu, was said to have stated that "the book should have never been written".

The I Ching is a different thing altogether and contains the 64 judgements as well as the cosmological world view of the ancients of China as well as the philosophical foundations of many a sub culture.

It is today, primarily used as a divination tool, but contains within many "between" the lines pearls of wisdom that are meant to be and can be applied to ones everyday routines. There are many interpretations and translations of the I Ching.

In my opinion the best of these is the german translated version which was later translated to english. I say this because in western languages the syntactical structure of german is closest to the syntactical structure of Chinese and therefore the translation is simply better.

This publication was released in the west in 1950. Anyway, the isbn # is 0-691-09750-X. It also contains a terrific preface by Carl Jung who brought many eastern paradigms into the western paradigm and in the doing was one of the first to make the philosophical bridges between east and west.

The Tao Te Ching has many versions that contain more or less the same writings but there are subtle differences. Recently a version known as "the bamboo leaf tao te ching" was discovered and it brings different interpretations to the writings. It is also said to be considerably older than many of the versions that are out there now. Either way, it contains wisdom that is readily transmitted to the one who reads it.

I Ching transliterates as "The Book of Change" and the title denotes the impermanance of things and how all is flux yet within the human condition is definable in context.

Tao Te Ching transliterates as "The book of the Way" and deals with things that are cosmological in context to the human condition as well as providing insight into how to improve and develop ones character, morality and ethics.

Both books are invaluable resources to not only martial artists but to those who want to explore humanity and it's quirks in general.

peace

[Kristoffer]

Kung Lek, have u read it? Can you give us un example of a 'lesson' you have learned from it?
thx again!

[David Jamieson]

K-

I have read both and also in different versions. I still read them regularly as they are what I would describe as "living books", not so much stories you read and put down, but more as a tool that you would use and refer to regularly.

An example of it's wisdom (Tao Te Ching) is:

"He who speaks, does not know, He who Knows, does not speak"

This is one of the most widely misinterpreted phrases from the Tao Te Ching. It is more often than not used to insult as opposed to enlighten. For me, the simple western equation to this phrase is "Deeds, not words" or "actions speak louder than words" and various other spins on that idea.

From the I Ching:

"In the face of a superior enemy, with whom it would be hopeless to engage in battle, an orderly retreat is the only correct procedure, because it will save you from defeat and destruction. It is by no means a sign of courage or strength to insist upon engaging in a hopeless struggle regardless of circumstances."



These are both good things for a martial artist to know and apply within their lives. I also must add that I find it interesting that the I Ching phrase I have quoted here bears remarkable similarity to the writings of Sun Tzu and his interpreters in "The Art of War".

peace

[Ben Gash]

The Tao Te Ching is a wonderful book, and by far the most accessable philosophical work around. I have read it several times and every time I have been inspired in a new way.I would strongly recommend it to anyone.
I've tried reading the I Ching a couple of times and I've never got past the first chapter. I just found it too technical.

[mantis108]

I hear you. :)

You ask: Not trying to flame but could you plz explain to me what is the Tao?

I believe you have answered it by youself already. What "IS" Tao? Tao is the "being" not the "doing" although to many it is the doing rather than the being.

The question (actually is the anwser) really lies in how deep you want to get to know it. Paraphrasing the immortal words of the ogre sage "ShreK" : Tao is like onions; Tao has layers.

Scholars and the likes got the onion. They study it by doing all sorts of things with it. Most of the time they got tears from handling the onion.

Layperson and the likes got the onion. They touch it, smell it, etc. they still got tears form it but they would appreciate it.

The fool and the likes got the onion. They don't really know what to do with it. In fact, they would just chuck it away.

Now a Taoist, see the onion, smells, peel it, and thinking to himself "may be I should chuck it?" etc... He then take a big bite into and at the moment he would laugh his a$$ off. Because he has just discovered that only a darn idiot would bite into the onion. So the Taoist did everything like everyone else except his is not afraid to make an a$$ of the himself. :D

Seriously, we could comprehend Tao conceptually as dharma but that's not what they are about. Hindu teaching has Yoga, Buddhist teaching has the four noble truths, and Taoist teaching has Wu Wei to show the path(s). The journeies are different but the destination is the same. There need not be a standard to become a human "being". We are but Tao (the being) in Human form. The question is do you appreciate it?

Mantis108

PS. the shrek thing is humor only, and don't intend to make fun of the situation. Hope you don't mind. ;)

[mantis108]

Kung Lek,

Great posts

Mantis108

[Kristoffer]

I've tried to read a book about the Tao, but it is so tecnical and hard to understand :(
Are u suposed to 'study' it (making notes, taking chapter by chapter) or read it. Going from the beginning `til the end?

I have read the Art of War and the book of the 5 rings by Musashi. They are written in an easier way me thinks. Thank you Kung Lek for taking your time. :)

[David Jamieson]

if you read them from an anologous and poetic point of view and compare passages or phrases to events in your own life, then by metaphor is where I have started to understand these books.

relative to my own ability to understand them from said point of view.

peace

[African Tiger]

but i was told by someone once that if you can explain The Tao, then "that's not the Tao". Er, or that it really can't be explained.

Any thoughts?

[Nexus]

The Tao Te Ching is trying to point people at the Tao and not at Lao Tzu (himself), but Lao Tzu realized that the effect of writing it was that it pointed too many people at the ego glorification of scholarlyness. That is why you have so many people quoting this and that, left and right, pompously claiming to a Taoist, but in fact being far from it.

- Nexus

[CanadianBadAss]

I read somewhere that when the Tao Te Ching is written in chinese characters you just skim through the book, just sort of absorbing the meaning as you read. But when its put in to english it's diffrent, peolpe end up going over it and over it, and some how it losses its meaning.

[David Jamieson]

hahahahaha, yes, to proselityze and intellectualize it, takes you further and further from the understanding of it. Or...

"he who speaks does not know while he who does not speak, knows."

that one phrase is completely contrary to itself when you think about it. As in, by saying that, Lao tzu is stating that he -knows-nothing. hahahahahahha. a cosmic joke!

Lao Tzu also said: "we cannot call it void, nor can we call it -not void-, but for the purpose of pointing it out, we will call it void."

An exercise in the madness and harmony that is dualism?

A finger pointing at the blatant falability of language as used to transmit thought?

baby steps. baby steps!

cool eh?

peace

[Kristoffer]

:D
yeah, it is more clearly now..
¨But you may wonder WHY it was written for the first place, and WHAT the meaning of the books really are. Is it really to guide u through life? If all has double meaning then it would also be WRONG to follow the writings?

[David Jamieson]

k-

yes, it could indeed be viewed in that way.

Just as Buddhism and it's objective of ceasing the cycle and ending ones attachments with the world could be considered a "death cult".

I personally think that these books and the lessons contained within point towards how everyone is different while each of us is the same.

The books are a way of groping through the inherent duality that is the human condition. As much as any master may attempt to transcend that duality of reality and life on earth, he/she cannot and will never be able to shake their earthen bonds and alas will always remain human.

This is not a pitiful thing at all though. Being human is quite wonderful. Having these flaws and misunderstandings is what brings richness and fullness to ones life in my opinion.

If we were all a bunch of lotus sitting leaf eating chanting meditators what a crock existance would be. :D

So, if nothing else, these books are guides and they can be used as such to help each person recognize an action they could take in a given situation.

They are very useful also for putting into verbiage those intangible thoughts that are constantly nudging around in your mind. I have experienced this myself on many occasions, not just with these books but with others also.

peace

[Kristoffer]

About the 'art of war' book..
I read that if it would be studied, and read by people in the west than the World Wars would not reamin for such a long time. Some said that they would probebly never even have been fought.
Story also says that big companies make their employees read the book before starting work. These companies are really sucsessfull.

My thoughts on this is:
Do you find this book similar too the I Ching and the other? Is this also a 'guide' so to speak? Because I always thought of it as an manual for warcraft, how to engage on the battlefield and so on. But when i read your post about the I Ching, it hit me that the art of war,,, is all about peace. How to maintain peace in our world.
:o Hee, acctually I think thats what it says in the beginning.. silly me.. anyway, I never thought of it that way.
Have u read the art of War?

[David Jamieson]

yes, i have read and still refer to Sun tzu's classic "the art of war".

and yes, I agree that it is yet another guide for living.
It's strategems apply to everything from how to fight a battle in actuality to how to win a battle in a more metaphorical way.

It's teachings deal with how the outcome can be in your favour by considering the ramifications of your actions or inaction in a given situation once again.

It has more detail than Musashi's book of five rings which is definitively more adapted to the martial artist. The art of war is more nebulous and it's principles and lessons carry across to many other areas of ones life. Particularly in regards to how one does business moreso than how one maintains and retains relationships they favour.

Another ancient text well worth reviewing is teh Tibetan book of the dead also known as the Bardo Thodol. This book is a remarkable study on how one should live their life according to how one prepares for their own death.

The commonality in all these books: The I Ching, The Tao Te Ching, The Art of War and the Bardo Thodol is that one has to recognize with equality their falabilities as well as their strengths.

They teach us that our strengths are often our weaknesses as well. They teach us of the duality of life and the impermanance of worldy trappings and life itself while at the same time touching on the eternalness of this cycle.

Many great life lessons are to be had from these books as well as many more that are from other cultures and other periods of time.
Reading them and absorbing their offerings will bring epiphany to the reader quite often and life changes can occur so long as one can see the forest for the trees so to speak.

In context to the martial artist and martial virtue as well as holding a martial mind, these books are an invaluable resource and one would be remiss to disclude them from their holistic training in the martial arts. They contain a great many keys to how one can practice and maintain their knowledge and abilty to disseminate that knowledge clearly to others via direct transmission from one to another.

peace

[Repulsive Monkey]

Someone earlier referred to what they thought was the best translation of this Toaist text was a Chinese to German and then German to English version. I take it you were referring to the Richard Wilhem translation? I think that his translation is very below par, and many other (both chinese and western academics) people have agreed upon it as it, like a lot of his work, is truncated, mis-translated and thoroughly biased to his devoutly christian background. I know this sounds like a more than obvious assault upon the man and his works, but when it comes to the intricacies of the Tao Te Ching and the subtle methodology containbed therein, Wilhelm manages to miss a lot of it, just look at his translation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower". He made a right pig's ear of that. So I too will be biased in saying that I feel the most credible translation of the Tao Te Ching to the the western language most certainly has to by Thomas Cleary. I mean is has many years of practical experience ion what he has translated where as Wilhelm at most was an arm chair philosopher when ti cam eto Eastern philosophy.

[Kristoffer]

Repulsive Monkey - that sounds logical, thx

all -
One thing that I learned from the book of 5 rings is "too drive your opponent backwards, into a tree, slippy area" Ie. : to push someone into eacother, into a hole or something. I use this all the time when sparring and play-fighting. Works great! (fun too) :D

[David Jamieson]

Repulsive monkey-

I am not referring to any particular author when speaking of chinese-german-english translations.

I am refering to syntactical structure of language.

English is so far removed in this case that for the most part the best tranlations of Chinese are from german first, then to english.

There are several versions of the Tao Te Ching, the I Ching and other classics.

Itr is also worthy of note that for the most part, Chinese Language is best read as Chinese Language as it translates poorly into any western language and it is probably in the best interest of the curious scholar to learn Chinese first, then read the texts. :D

Otherwise, Scholars will be scholars and will debate endlessly about anything as scholars are wont to do, hahahaha.

I must also add that I don't think the Wilhelm translation of the I Ching is that bad at all, it is considered one of the best from where I have read regarding the alternate translation sources.

I have a "Taoist" I Ching that has a completely different translation from the older chinese-german-english version also and it is not quite as in depth as the german-english version.

As for the Tao Te Ching, I haven't read Wilhelms version.

Are you speaking of the "Changes of Chou" in regards to wilhelms translations?

peace

[mantis108]

I agree with Repulsive Monkey that it doesn't make sense and not worth the effort to study Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist texts in the manner of studying the scripture. There is a world of difference btween acadamic pursuits and spiritual pursuits. *I actually don't believe I have just said that ;)* I must be getting old or something. :D

Mantis108

[Nexus]

The tao is looking within. All of what could ever be written by Lao Tzu or any Taoist could be experienced without ever setting eyes upon his writings. They are just a guide, a bible, a instruction manual, a direction, a focus, or anything you make them to be. Any writing that you use to better yourself is merely a tool that you, the creator of yourself, used to manipulate your perspective, to adjust your attitude, to alter your state of mind.

When you decide to walk the path of self-realization, the path is completely designed by you. Obstacles will arise, and you can choose to face them or stop walking. You make your life as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

Perhaps one of the reasons the Tao Te Ching was written was because Lao Tzu knew that when a person decided to truly discover who they are, that they would be dealing with a nearly impossible journey of self-discovery. The tao te ching can be used to aid in that journey, when you feel astray, or when you are needing inspiration, and as I said above, clearly for any reason you want it to be, or justification that you feel you need to make for yourself.

Those who walk the path to understanding who they are will deal with more difficulty then had they never chosen to walk that path at all. The reason this occurs is because when someone makes this choice, everyone around them tries to stop them from being successful. This is due to the fact that most people never do what they truly want to do in life, and never live out their true potential, and by seeing you doing just that, it creates a hatred and an envy towards you. You will be called a fool for doing what it is you truly want to do in life, and most people will try and tell you how it is that you should live your life, and exactly what it is that you need to change. People will attempt to do anything that they can to lead you astray. That is why it takes a lot of willpower and pride in yourself to walk the path, and those only come with practice, patience, dilligence, focus and so on.

Enjoy your awakening, and embrace your awareness.

[tnwingtsun]

Thanks for the input.

Thinking on the lines of unifing Einstein's theorys,Quantum physics

and the Super string theory and how they fit in with the idea(or way,or thought,or concept) of the Tao.

Einstein's Unified field theory concept is synonymos with the TOE,better known as the Theory of everything.


I think its neat to see some of today's top minds untertwining
their theorys with text that was written a long time ago.

[mantis108]

Hi tnwingtsun,

No sweat, my friend. I hear you. We might end up confusing the guy if we start off with the remarkable parallel between modern physics and eastern mystericism. Beside not a lot of people are convinced that there might just be such a parallel. If it is within his karma then he shall find the answer. Anyway, great point that you brought up.

Mantis108

[Kristoffer]

Im not really good with physics or Einsteins theory. Anyone care to point out those similarities?

[mantis108]

Hi Kristoffer,

Try "The Tao of Physics: an exploration of the parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism" by Fritjof Carpa. I think it is available through Amazon.com as well.

Regards

Mantis108

[tnwingtsun]

Thanks mantis108,I'll look for the book.


"Beside not a lot of people are convinced that there might just be such a parallel"



Its so complex but so simple at the same time,I for one am convinced.

I enjoy throwing ideas around such as these,by no means am I
on the same scale as the sages of Eastern Mysticism and
Einstein but I am intriged none the less
;)

[Kristoffer]

Thank you for a good thread everyone.