hooking puches

[flem]

i love praying mantis and appreciate it as an advanced martial art BUT
i don't think the mantis hook would be very effective against a boxer(western)

[SaMantis]

Depends on how you use the mantis hook, I think.

I'm trying to visualize a fight between a western boxer and a mantis boxer. Mantis hook can be used as a strike but IMO it isn't a very strong strike, definitely not like the direct straight-line punches of a western boxer.

The hook seems most effective in redirecting strikes, particularly straight punches, gaining control of the arm to off-balance the opponent and counter. I'm not sure how well it would work against uppercuts, especially if the boxer gets inside your guard. If he threw a roundhouse I would try to get away from it or block it.

Anyway, if I tried to strike Mike Tyson with a mantis hand, he'd barely flinch -- and two seconds later I'd be picking my teeth off the floor. :D

Any other applications you guys can think of?

Sam

[flem]

samantis

i agree with the redirect concept but i had in mind an experienced "boxer" an Ali or sugar ray leonard. they have good control of distance and don' tie up one hand to defend but instead throw various combos--

[baldmantiz]

do not forget though...techniques do not work the same for everybody....i would not want to get into a punching contest with a boxer or try to throw a much bigger person over my body...there are diffferent stradegies for different situations

[flem]

so what type of opponent is best to apply the hooks

[SaMantis]

I think Sugar Ray would be easier to apply a hook. He's small and has way fast punches, but they're not as powerful as a heavyweight's. The tricky part is getting the application in; once you have it you've got a chance of controlling the arm.

Ali would be easy to hook but he's a lot bigger, so you might have trouble controlling the arm long enough to attack. He was fast for his size, too, so getting outside would be a real trick.

I'm a girl, so in both cases my focus would be on breaking free and getting the hell outa there :D

Sam

[18elders]

guo lo tzai
works great for straight and hooks but you have to be able to do it inside and outside.
a strong basic of mantis, will always be a life saver if all you can remember is that.
we drill the heck out of it.

[flem]

try this hook


it is set up by throwing an uppercut- assume both you and your opponent are in right lead stances- throw an exaggerated outside low lead uppercut so that your opponent defends downward with their left or rear hand- as they make contact you wrap their wrist as if pointing at yourself- coil the hook toward yourself then out into a hook punch
the opponent tends to try to catch up with the punch using the hooked hand but your punch is safely inside punching their jaw, temple, ear, etc.

after you try it let me know what you think

[Tainan Mantis]

I hope you don't think me foolish, but I don't uderstand the question.

I can think of several things that can be defined as hook.

1. A hook punch. Travels in a curve. WC people don't like to do it.
2. A type of grab
3. A strike with the back of the wrist
4. Also a type of kick in mei hwa PM, but I guess you are talking about the hands.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I think the mantis hook would be an excellent technique to use against a boxer considering they're not used to any form of grabbing or trapping. The problem is speed. Boxers have fast hands and hooking or grabbing a jab isn't easy. Properly set up it could work and probably drive the boxer crazy. Riding the retreating hand back is great if you can get in there in the first place.

[seung ga faat]

Remember that diu does not just consist of hooking. It is a concept that means; sneaky; crafty; deceptive; wicked .Sau means usage of the entire arm. Don't limit your self to just the ending shape of diu and use the entire arm in you defensive movement. Stop limiting yourself and drill all your transition skills together with attacking.
Also try attacking the source of the hooking punch;thearm, the body,the shoulder. Be deceptive as a diu.
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[flem]

i beleive only hua lin laoshi understood my ?. i was talking about catching a boxers hand, particularly a fast jab. i appreciate following it back in hua lin laoshi, but then we aren't talking about the mantis hook anymore- more like sticking , i just don't think it's possible and believe it was developed with a practioner beginning with a chambered punch- allowing one enough time to catch it. anyway i find it most useful as a redirect as it 5th exercise .

[MightyB]

It is true that a jab is a fast punch, but it's not a "flicking" type punch like most people, including some boxers, think. You don't merely stick your left hand out there and "paint" the guy's face. A jab comes from the lead arm, elbow is down and in, it extends out using the waist and shoulder, and snaps or twists much like a traditional MA punch on it's full extension. The boxer then brings his hand back to his original guarding, or starting position before he jabs again. If it is done right, it causes damage and will open up cuts on the oponents face. Most people mistake a feint for a jab, where the boxer flicks his lead hand out (usually left hand) with no intention of commitment, to draw a reaction from his opponent.

You can't hook a feint, you shouldn't even try. You can hook a true jab, but it's difficult. What you gotta do as the PM guy is to committ on the jab as he throws it, not when it is fully extended. As you see his shoulder dip to throw the jab, don't be a puss and committ to the choi sum sau. Go hard and fast with it, if you miss with the du sau, keep going with the choi sum sau and really let him have it. The boxer hasn't seen what you got before, and it'll scare the crap out of him.

A boxer will usually follow a jab with a cross, it's the ol' one two combination. If you're not comfortable with trying to hook a jab, parry the jab and wait for the cross. You should have time to hook a cross if you've been taught and are practicing correctly.

Drill full speed when you drill. Have the agressor actually try to hit you, and, if you're that **** scared of facing a boxer on the street, practice against a "boxer" in class. Practice defending against a full speed jab, and some simple boxing combos.

Peace,

The B

[flem]

mightyB
that was kinda my point-though i didn't elaborate on it how do you decide if you've got the feint or the jab- you don't if he is any good the difference is he is attacking w/both hands while one of ours is chasing a fake(possibly).
also i am not affraid of boxer on street ,but maybe you should be if it is that simple- not an insult. anyway i used boxer for their tactics, but it could be anyone with speed AND power. have you been able to hook a good jab? if so, were you able to control it in order to apply additional techniques? as i said earlier, i have gotten it but without the ability to do anything with it except that the redirect throws of the opponents follow.
the bottomline is i think the swaying or rocking emphasized by wushu practitioners to add dramatics has a purpose which is to go partially back with a fast punch, thus enabling one to continue and apply further techs, what do you think?

[MightyB]

The biggest difference between a feint and a jab is in the waist and shoulder. Granted, most boxers will constantly be moving, twisting, shifting, bobbing, weaving, bouncing back and forth, whatever or however they're trained--- they usually plant for a split second to throw, but a feint is arm only, where a good jab uses the entire body, it's literally from the toes up.

But, you should be moving too, remember good footwork (bo fot) mixed with body motion (sun yeen)(sp?). So, you're a moving target too, he jabs, you sink and move ever so slightly back and force him to overcommitt on his next move be it a cross or a second jab. Don't worry too much if you're doing a choi sum sau since you will be moving to the lifegate (outside his lead arm/jab) and he'll have to really cross himself to get you with a cross or hook punch.

Even if it's a fake, when you decide to comitt, really comitt. He'll be on the defensive and will go back to his training which is to cover (arms up chin tucked), bob, weave, and sway. Do what you have to do at that point.

We practice against jabs and combinations all the time. We usually train with the mindset that the second hand is coming.

PM is yeilding in it's nature, what I mean is that you don't counter force with force. You control, but for a brief second, as you set up another trap or strike. If the guy is really pulling hard, you don't pull back, you go with the power to hit him. Like in chin na, if the guy resists, you switch to a lock that blends with the direction of his resistence and the person will go down twice as fast.

On a side note:

I have yet to spar against a person who doesn't have some grounding, however rudimentary, in boxing. I'm talking all MA stylists now use boxing handwork offensively, so you should train for it. Tae kwon do guys use boxing handwork, Muy Thai (old thai didn't have a western jab or uppercut), karate, and yes, even kung fu people use western boxing offensively (san shou anybody).

To get back to my original point, you should apply a mantis hook when the jab is being thrown, not when it's extended, because at the moment that it's fully extended, it's on its way back.

I can't understand why you couldn't do anything with the hook when you caught the jab, didn't you have a technique in mind when you did the du sau? You never hook just to hook. Why didn't you follow through with whatever technique you decided to use? Go when you get the chance, don't hesitate. A couple of years back, we had Sifu Brendan Lai do a seminar in our school. He stressed that your defense had to be faster and more decisive than the opponents attack. Meaning that when you go, you really go. When he demonstrated what he meant, nobody could jab or feint, because when you launched a jab or feint (didn't matter), he was on you like white on rice, pummeling the crap out of you. You gotta have that mindset when you train.

Train hard, train realistically, train often,

The B

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem
Riding the punch back puts your wrist directly in front of your opponents face inside his guard. A little extra push to add to the momentum could cause enough damage to allow the followup to proceed uncontested. I don't think you want to hook the arm and try to hang on to it. Were you talking about a redirect like the end of 1st Form? If that's the case you would need to have an attack (other hand or feet) already under way before he can recover from the redirect.

[puma]

i noticed you are from mighigan ... is your kung fu school any where near detroit?

[18elders]

I agree with mightBl
I you commit your attack to his feint and really go in, it won't matter if it's a jab or feint.
If he's feinting or throwing the jab he is trying to set himself up for a good attack and then next thing he knows he's getting attacked. Just like mightyB said, go full force and he's sol.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

A good defense is an offense. Now where have I heard that before? ;)

18Elders
Sounds like you fight your fight and not your opponents. Smart.

[MightyB]

We are about two hours north of Detroit in Midland. I go to Chung's School of Praying Mantis Kung Fu in Midland Michigan. It's 7 Star PM.

[flem]

it sounds to me as if some of you have not been in a non-controlled fight or the person hitting was not your equal. i too tend to believe in aggressive tactics this depends on my adversary however. using a standard method of attack is what made so many look foolish in the early UFC fights. the beauty of chinese MA compared to most other styles is the wide range of techs available which allows adaptation to anything. has anyone heard of or used the stop hit or change of engagement- or more precisely, has anyone received them when attempting to grab-via the mantis hook.

[MightyB]

"has anyone heard of or used the stop hit or change of engagement?"

Basic Mantis theory described in 1960's JKD terminology...

"or more precisely, has anyone received them when attempting to grab-via the mantis hook."

If you do Mantis right, they don't have the time or the chance to apply a stop hit. You don't just "hook" by itself...

"it sounds to me as if some of you have not been in a non-controlled fight or the person hitting was not your equal."

kind've the whole point of studying kung fu.


Keep Training ;)

The B

[seung ga faat]

Flem, I understand what you are saying. But, I think you misunderstood my response.
Intercepting is not done with the hand . Interception when its done with a hand skill is actually done with the entire arm which includes the hand. If you are using a hooking action that ends in a tong long diu sau what is most is space between the action's beginning and ending that is where the true intercepting happens. Try using the arm more.
Now this also has alot to do with the range of your opponent.
Movements that will be help can be found in Tong Long Chuet Dong.
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