Who will win?

[kher]

If a small size person with very high kung fu or martial art skill fights with someone bigger size and very strong but with no martial art skill,who will win?

[Former castleva]

Depends on those persons,there is no truth on this one.
THOUGH.I would lay my money on kung-fu guy because even though size may matter,we all do have same nerves,joints,pressure points and vulnerable areas,no matter how big or strong we are.

[Wu-Xing]

My money would be on the smaller guy.Reason being im a small guy who can fight and i have fought people bigger than me and beat their a$$'s.size dosent matter as much as people would like to think.

[redfist]

there are two things that come into play,

1. conditioning,fitness is the bodies ability to react to demands
made above routine tasks.

2.technology,your daily training,that leads to natural, automatic,
response.

you are only as good as your last work out.

a smaller person has less room for error against a bigger opponent but, i`ll take the one who is in training.

[Asia]

size dosent matter as much as people would like to think.

Wrong! Size does matter. A common myth is that MA will level the playing feild but it just isn't so. All things equal expect the bigger stronger guy to win.


The big factor would be experience. The guy who eat sleeps and breathes MA but NEVER been in a fight would more an likely lose to a guy who has no formal training but has had several fights.

[curtis]

Any fighter can take out, any other fighter, on any given day.

Think of it as gambling. There is always a risk. Granted that if you train in some type of fighting art it will give you a higher percentage, no matter how good you are, there is always the risk. Even if you are world-class fighter, some nobody could take you out, if luck is on their side.

All size does is give you a greater potential to create damage. Now skill may equal that percentage, but even 99 to 1 there is always at one percent.

That is why what I am facing an opponent, I must believe its life or death. ( You never know who your faceing) if my life is online (or someone who I love, is in danger.) I will take the chance. I will give everything I have, my entire potential to get the highest percentage possible. And so far it has been enough.
I train very hard to get the highest percentage possible. Hoping and praying that I do not ever need to take such a gamble again.


A motto I learned in the military was: To train for the worst possible situation, in this way the worst thing the enemy can do, is to disappoint you.

Happy new year! C.A.G.

[redfist]

there are no absolutes,size and luck matter,
everything matters,
remember,
every dog has his day,
don`t under estimate any one.


the strongest of all warriors are these two,time and patience.

leo tolstoy

[DelicateSound]

Fight experience counts for a lot. You sh!t yourself - you're meat.

[Mutant]

With all factors being equal, the bigger fighter will win. Quality MA training will make a huge difference and its tough to compare fighters in the real world because of so many variable.
So think of it in this hypothetical scenereo: If you were able to clone yourself or a fighter you know and somehow this clone had the exact experience and skill of the original, and then you were to increase the size of the clone by 25% or even 50%, who would win, the clone or the original? Think of fighting that exact copy that was bigger, he would stomp you.
i know its a weird comparo, but a scenero like that is easier for me to visualize apples to apples...

[Kristoffer]

If the small guy is good, then he will win.

[Kristoffer]

If the small guy is good, then he will win.

[Dark Knight]

"If the small guy is good, then he will win."

But the skill must go up much higher. To overcome strength and size you need to be better, as that difference gets bigger you need to be even better.

[Mantis9]

Here's another factor that could change the demensions of this theoretical fight. Speed and skill would hand the fight to the smaller man.

Hunting and pecking at the larger opponent would be the tatic to use. The smaller man's skill and speed could be fully utilized in this manner, frustrating his opponent, not allowing the use of the big man's size and strength.

That is what martial skill is for. Not only do you know how to punch, but also where, when , and why you use it.

I say this as a relatively bigger man; hovering around the 215lb mark. Dealing with superior speed can be baffling when my opponents know how to use it.

[Asia]

Mantis,

I am 220lbs 6' I am VERY fast. Speed is good but it needs power to go with it. It does little to hit your opponent quickly if the blows have litte effect. And generally big guys have more mass to absord shock.

[curtis]

Hi guys
let me put in my two cents.
Yes it is true, that the bigger person will have more kinetic energy to use, an in normal situations his mass will absorb more damage. But that is just a general rule.
David took down Goliath with one small stone. And if small man knows how to punch or kick well, (and not to mention if he may have a weapon.) and is able to hit his target. The fight will be over. The goal for self defense, should be to take the opponent out as quickly as possible. We are talking about a fight, not sparring, we are also talking about seconds, not rounds.
I personally have seen a small woman, not down (and out) a man (a very large man) with one punch. And if she had hit him in the throte she could have easily killed him.
My friends do not compare apples and oranges. Self defense is real-life, and sparring is just a game. Think about it, a pen or a knife, a gun or a broken bottle it makes very little difference, you could be dead, in just a few seconds.
C.A.G.

[DelicateSound]

IMHO the difference only matters if it is GREAT.

If it's the difference between 5'11 and 6'2 for e.g, then skill and weaponry (as Curtis said) will be the deciding factors.

Weapoary is usually THE decision maker, but if you're fighting a GrandMaster, I doubt the possesion of an AK47 would win you the fight. There are some people out there who's skill is phenomenal, I'm not talking about the basics of knowing where to hit etc, or having a good sidekick, I'm talking about reactions quicker than you can think.

Then you will lose, badly.

[curtis]

DelicateSound please dont fool your self.
Even a master can die. and wepons are verry dangerious.
Even Bruce Lee caried a gun before he died,(now thats two facts to look at. The proof of weponary, and even a master can die.) Now dont read more into it than what I just said.
There are no Suppermen! And no matter how skilled you are, you will always be human. (and humans do make mistakes!)
Knowing this to be true. Train hard,and prepair for the worst,in this way, the worst may never happen.
TO BE FORWARNED IS TO BE FORARMED.
HAVE A GOOD DAY!!!! C.A.G. ;)

[Mantis9]

I was speaking generalities. There are exception to every rule. You have a great gift being larger and fast. Mass x Speed = Power.

Also, I was make the assumption that the smaller guy knows how to deliver a blow (being skilled) and the bigger guy doesn't (being unskilled).

Thank you for your reply.

[Leech]

Dat be funny,little guys come to good old leech and try to hurt me,I juz kill the funny little guys:D Now the point is that people like to think that size DOESN´T matter,like"oh ****,that guy knows karate!".Now datz bullshait.Most of the time.Maybe.:p

[guohuen]

The one that stops fighting last.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by curtis
DelicateSound please dont fool your self.
Even Bruce Lee caried a gun before he died

[deep sigh.....]

I say "Master", you refer to a reckless, immature movie star, who died of a drugs overdose before he was 30. Some master.......

[curtis]

DelicateSounds

I hope you don't believe that Bruce Lee was just movie star? What you say is more or less true, and it is ashamed. (I'm talking about the drugs part of your statement. Drugs were widely used in the '70s, look at all the great people who died because of them, Elvis Presley, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, James Dean... The list goes on.)
Because of your age. Or lack of proper influences, I can see how you would believe he was just movie star.
Believe me. Bruce Lee was much much more. My sifu was one of his original students (James DeMile) and I have trained or gone to seminars, of other of Bruce Lee students, (sifu Danny, Joe Louis, Ed Hart, Jesse Glover.) And believe me each of these men say they could not hold a candle to Bruce Lee, his speed and power were unbelievable. (In all of these men in their own right are masters)
OK!!!
back to the topic!
Small VS LARGE
Bruce Lee is another example. This man who weighed 135lbs. could use his entire weight to transfer energy. I have it from a good source, that he could not only hit faster, but he could overpower his much larger opponents as well.
Just another quote for the books BIGGER ISNT ALWAYS BETTER!
Have a great day. C.A.G.

[gungfuguy]

To call Bruce Lee a reckless and immature movie star is a reckless statement from a youngster that never met the man and has probably never met anybody that knew Bruce Lee. Any martial artist from that time frame, including Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Bob Wall, Joe Lewis and countless others will all tell you that Bruce Lee was likely the best fighter in the world. Also, to make the comment that Bruce Lee died of a drug overdose is a gross misstatement. There never was an autopsy performed and so the official cause shall always be: a brain hemorrhage due to unknown circumstances. It is speculated that he was allergic to a Chinese herbal treatment for headaches and that caused the edema that eventually killed him. I know of people that can die from violent allergic reactions to such everyday spices as MSG and even peanut oil. In a discussion about small size and great skill versus large size and little skill, Bruce Lee belongs more so than any other single person. He hit with great accuracy and speed and he packed a Mack truck behind every strike.

Size is almost as relevant as skill. If you have a slight advantage in skill but are at a great disadvantage in size, then you are outclassed. The problem is that size can only gain you so much advantage, strength can only gain you so much advantage…but advantages in skill can be limitless. Size and strength are only important if you can hit your opponent before he takes you out, and if he is quite faster than you, and has the superior skill in evading your attacks you shall have problems regardless of your size. I think speed and skill are more important than size. If you watch boxing you’ll see that the faster more skilled fighter will always win. Even in Heavyweights where there can be a 40LB difference in the fighters. Look to the “Rumble in the Jungle” for an example: Foreman had the size and strength, Ali had the speed and skill. Do you remember who won? Of course Muhammad Ali with his speed and skill won.

[gungfuguy]

By the way, Bruce Lee was 33 when he died. It was stated by delicate sound that he died prior to being 30 years-old.

[rogue]

James Dean died of an overdose in the 70's?

Sorry guys size matters, no matter what the skill level. Skill level may make it easier on the little guy but it never factors size out completly.

Lee was a hardcore trainer but it's a strecth to say he was a great fighter. Norris would have killed him.

[tengu]

At the end of the day, the ruthless fellow wins... the ruthless fellow is the fighter who goes for the fragile areas at full speed and strength without giving it a second thought. That kind of person is usually not very nice... certainly not one of your noble, chivalrous martial artists (well, maybe sometimes...). Often that kind of person is a big burly bouncer-type. He may be a tub of lard, but his size and evil nature give him the confidence for extreme ruthlessness. Then again, a ruthless pint-sized pixie of a scrapper can do real damage to a big softie twice his size.

[curtis]

rouge
First off James Dean died beacuse of liquer (which is a drug!)and driveing.

Do you realy belive what you said? chuck (belive me I respect the man but ...) NO WAY!!!

OK we could go back and forth on all the what ifs. so why not look at the people bruce trained. lets start at the begining.
Jessie Glover, James DeMile,Ed Hart,James Lee,Danny Inosanto....
and there are many more. each of these men ,have stated that Bruce Lee was the best thay ever seen,and thay couldnt stop him.
Rouge
these men are of some of the best fighters in the world.

IN A FIGHT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS SURVIVAL! the fighter that can hit and not be hit will win.

remember we are talking real life not a game, fighting and spairing are not the same! Perhaps whin there are rules it becomes a sport, and then size will matter and whaat kind of shape you are in matters. BUT NOT IN A FIGHT!!!


LOOK AT IT THIS WAY what kind of men become US NAVY SEALS?
it isnt the big man who normaly makes it, it is the smaller or average size man who makes it, But even more inporant than size of the man, is the size of the hart.
The one who will not quite will survive. (the fighter will always win!)

C.A.G.

[Tai-Jutsuka]

I thought that James Dean died in a car accident in the 50s.

[MA fanatic]

I think there is a martial arts myth going around that martial artists will always defeat a none martial artist. There is also a myths which says, "size means nothing, only technique matters." Those are plain lies. I have seen very compitent black belts stumped by skilled, strong street thugs. Just look at UFC. Look at David Tank Abbot. The guy is 340 and has no martial arts background. All he has is one solid punch, a good jaw, and a lot of heart. That guy had defeated not only martial artists, but fighters who are world reknown. Don't assume that because you're studying martial arts that a none martial artist can't hurt you. In fact, often being taught structured fighting can hurt your chances of survival should you be psychologicaly not prepared.

MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

For the record, Bruce was one of the most talented martial artists that ever lived. As a matter of fact, he was described as the most talented martial artist by some of the biggest masters of Kung Fu, TKD, Karate, Kempo, Judo, Savate, and wrestling. For the record, he did not die of a drug overdose. He died at age 33 due to a swelling on his brain. The man had a brain tumer which may or may not have been triggered by an herbal pill given to him a few hours before the time of death. He openly used Hashish but that was ruled out as the cause of death. Lee was an innovater, a true fighter, a martial arts historian, a philosopher and a fighter.

As for grandmasters dodging bullets, please. How old are we guys? Someone watched way too many Kung Fu movies as a kid. What are we going to be saying next? Monks could fly. A grandmasters is an honorary tittle. In many cases it has nothing to do with fighting skills. We're all human. After training in the martial arts for quite some time, I'd take a 5'4 130 pound grandmaster skilled in the art of Dim Mak over a 340lb David Tank Abbot who KOed world class martial artists in the UFC.

MA fanatic

[curtis]

HI MA fanatic
very nice commentary. I agree 100 percent of what you said. Although I sincerely hope you do not misread my statements.
As far as Bruce Lee goes, sense there was never a official medical review ON his body, that explained why he had brain hemorrhage, I gave in for the sake of conjecture, drugs may have clause the brain hemorrhage, he actually had two attacks, one which put him in the hospital, and other one, two days later that killed him. But that mystery will never be solved.

I also agree with you, about street fighting. People all too often confuse martial art's and street fighting. They're not the same thing.
Martial art's is a structured way of learning.
Street fighting is pure aggression, and violence.
Just because someone wears a black Belt does not necessarily mean that they are a good fighter. It does MEAN that they are skilled in what they know. (A Style or Art)
a black belt can be a good fighter, but that is not necessarily always true, on the street were it counts.

One other point, TANK ABBIT? The sad thing about UFC, is that is just SHOW! they pick people right off of muscle beach, thay are big, and look impressive. But unfortunately there is not a whole lot of skilled people who attend the UFC. (It was fun to watch in the beginning, but it grew old very quick.) as far as I see it, the only good thing that came out of the UFC was common people's acceptance of Gracie jujitsu. And ground fighting in general.
Thank you MA FRANTIC
have a good day. C.A.G.

[MA fanatic]

Thank you Curtis:
I believe Bruce died of a swelling to the brain called cerebral adima. There are questions as to what caused this swelling. The doctor who conducted the autopsy stated that it could have been caused by an allergic reaction to Hashish. Actually, according to some literature I read, Bruce did have an allergic reaction to Hashish once before. He was told that a second reaction would be worse (as all allergies go). On the day of his death he came to his friend's house and requested an aspirin for his headache. He had been filming The Game of Death and was over worked. To calm his anxiety, Bruce did use Hashish despite doctor's warning. Traces of Hashish were found in his body but not enough to kill anyone who was not allergic. Also, the herbal pill he took at his friend's home was like a large dose of aspirin which he shouldn't have taken. It is speculated that an allergy to hashish, coupled with an unidentified herb, may have sent him into a coma.

About UFC: Recently UFC is making attempts to be sanctioned as a legit sport. So, they only allow accomplished martial artists and athletes to compete. In the last 2 years, we have only seen world class wrestlers, kick boxers, submission fighters, and accomplished marial artists be allowed to fight. Most applications are turned down. The only reason I used Tank as an example, is because he is one of these guys who is brute streght, agression and ability to take pain. He is fearless, despite his lack of formal martial arts training, and thas is apparently enough to KO world reknown kickboxers, grapplers and master level martial artists. He was defeated. But, if you look at the guys who beat him, you'll see that it took international caliber fighters to stop him. Not bad for someone who admits to training by getting into bar fights. lol

It is important for martial artists to realize that there are numerous myths past down for centuries about the skill levels of ancient masters and grandmasters. Most of these myths were not started by these masters, but by their students (some of whom never even trained under these masters directly). I think had Gichin Funakoshi, Miyagi, Oyama, Ueshiba, any Shoaline Monk, and even Bruce Lee had been alive today, they would be quite entertained by the stories which have been told about them.

This does not mean that we should stop training. It only means that we as martial artists should be aware of our weaknesses as much as our strengths. If our masters have indeed possessed great skill, it doesn't mean that we will ever fight like them. We're living in a different day and age. People are different. Body shapes are different. We're also living in a Golden Age of martial arts where everyone is exposed to arts from all around the globe. The fighters we may face now, are not the same fighters from 100 years ago in China, Japan, Korea, or Okinawa. Where as in the past a challenge match would require two fighters to meet at dawn in some cemetary and begin with a formal stance, now I challenge match would mean being shanked by a 14 year old who is going through some gang initiation. Most likely, we wouldn't even see the blade before we feel it. The world is different and martial artists should realize this.

MA fanatic

[curtis]

Bravo, nicely said and done. (A wish I could write like that!)

As far as Bruce Lee goes, I to believe it was the allergic reaction that caused brain hemorrhage. Although.... I guess we will never know?

I was not aware of the UFC changing their rules AGAI. I gave up on it back around four or five. (As a matter of fact I was there are in Detroit, in Joe Louis arena for UFC 5? And ended up walking out, because of the change of their rules back then. aswell as the fighting was actually horrible.) I don't plan to watch any more of those sort of games again.

THE Golden age of martial art's! I like it!!! I never looked at it in quite that way.

Thank you again
sincerely C.A.G.

[curtis]

Empty cup
size does not matter!
This question is a loaded question. Again size does not matter, for a fight. For a sport,"WELL" that different animal.

Too many people believe size is the only thing that matters, it isn't! A small woman or child has enough power to takeout any full grown man with one punch. If they know how to transfer their body weight correctly. As well as where and how to strike probably.

Think about? How much power do you generate when striking? Chances are your using one or perhaps a few body sources to creat power, but what if you can use your whole body to generate power? " Well" thats what Bruce Lee did. Being only a 135 pound man he could old welm his much larger opponents, not only with just speed, but with power. He learned how to use his entire body weight for the transfer of energy.
It is difficult to understand. And anyone can do it ! (But that would be a whole other topic)
These quotes ,seem to point it out my points pretty clearly.

Just because EVERYONE believes it to be true, doesn't always make it so!

Might does not always make RIGHT!

Any fighter, can takeout any other fighter, on any given day.

I am always glad to debate this topic. We all forget how fragile the human body can be. It isn't too hard to take advantage of all your strengths, then use your opponents weaknesses against him.

Have good day. C.A.G.

[curtis]

ALSO
SPORTS HAVE RULES,FIGHTING DOES NOT!!!

C.A.G.

[MA fanatic]

There are so many factors involved in surviving a fight. There are four methods of defeating a man with bare hands. We can defeat him with strikes, throws, joint manipulation and strangulation / choking. Which attribute do you utilize in a fight (I'm not taking into account things like pyshological readiness, element of surprise, agression, using the environment, weapons, emprovised weapons, etc.), depends on you and your apponent. I'd be a fool to attempt a joint manipulation on a man twice my size. I could however strike him and use chokes against him. All depends on the situation. There are four ranges of combat also. Kicking ranging, hand striking range, clinching/trapping range, and ground grappling range. If a guy is very strong, I wont take him to the ground grappling range. If he doesn't outweigh me by over 30 pounds, I would not hesitate to take him down and attack with joint manipulations and chokes (assuming the situation is ideal and we're fighting one on one). There is not right or wrong answer. One would be a fool to assume that knowledge of martial arts is all the one needs to know to defeat a larger apponent. That simply isn't so. One is also wrong to assume that just because a man is larger, all hope is lost. We can't give up on life no matter who or how many are trying to take it away from us.
MA fanatic

[jkund34]

IMHO a big problem most Martial Artists have is their MA is more sport than self defence, and I find this by reading many posts from many differant forums, Most Martial artists talk about punchs, kicks to the face or choking and manipulations,when in a real fight size doesnt matter as much becuse I would be looking for real targets not points,EX. throat, side kick to the knee ,finger to the eyes and maybe the groin, don't forget about biting pinching ,spitting they all work well to. Not many people train in iron knee training :-)

[curtis]

NICELY SAID!
C.A.G.

[straight blast]

Norris would have killed him.

Thanks man, that was the funniest thing I've read on this forum for ages. And I'll confess I thought that you were being serious. Smart aleck.

One thing I feel I have to add is that we all know how much harder a big guy can hit, but do they? Most big guys hit like pu$$ies. Once they know how to throw a punch it's a different story. The whole reason we study the mechanics of striking is to get that edge in speed, power and impact. If it was purely reliant on size then why spend ages practising technique...why practise at all? Surely Royce Gracie mustn't have realised that he didn't have a chance against the big guys....maybe that's why he beat so many of them.

And just out of curiosity, where did people get the idea that Bruce wasn't autopsied? His brain was investigated by two different doctors from two different countries, one of them a New Zealand expert who was flown in for the event.

DelicateSound... Usually I enjoy reading what you've written because you have some idea what you're saying. But obviously when it comes to Bruce Lee you have no idea. It always cracks me up when people say he was an "actor". Or a superb athlete. Rather than speak strongly from a position of ignorance why don't you talk to some of the people who knew him? There are plenty of them around. Or maybe they're all highly proficient Martial Artists with great reputations who just like to admit that they weren't as good as someone and point people in the wrong direction.

I'll let you figure it out. :D

MA Fanatic...it's good to see someone speaking from a position of knowledge. I've seen the Bruce Lee death certificate (it's here on the net somewhere) and I've read the coroner's report.
Looks like you have too.

[Asia]

I am a firm believer that there are NO rules in real fight. But there are factors like someone mentioned before. And SIZE is one of them. If you don't take size into consideration you are fooling yourself and if you said size doesn't matter I question if you ever been in a real fight. A 150lb guy is at a great disadvantage against a 250+ guy. That doesn't me that he couldn't win but if you tried fighting him like someone of his own wait class he is more than likely to lose. Someone said they would go for REAL targets like eyes, side of the knee, etc. HELLO! Many MA deal with these targets. If you think you can use the same amount of force to break anyones knee you are wrong. If you think you will easily jab your fingers in someones eye. you are wrong. (I not going to natual reflexes.) I think the problem is many pple equate size with slow and clusmy. I as 'heavyweight' guy I will tell you that is FAR from true. The thing that will help you fighting any opponent is experience.

[JWTAYLOR]

As I have posted a dozen times before...


I will win.

JWT

[guohuen]

Large guys that train are usually fast and powerfull. Dangerous combination. As a medium sized guy I stay well away from them and watch them like a hawk. I do know what Straightblast is talking about. There is a tendency in some big guys to get ****y because they're big and not train much. They usually go down fast and hard. I swear I had a guy 6'6" 280 sucker punch me dead on in the mouth and barely split my lip. I looked at him in amazement and started laughing.

[Dark Knight]

"One thing I feel I have to add is that we all know how much harder a big guy can hit, but do they? "

thats true if you are fighting an untrained fighter. But a good big man will beat a good small man.

A smaller guy can give up a lot of weight to an untrained or lessor trained fighter.

Dont feel that size does not matter. It does but you can overcome it. But if your larger opponent is also training you may not have an advantage.

i have fought guys that have 100 pounds on me, and they hit like they were 100 pounds less than me. but if you expect this on the street, and your wrong, its gonna hurt.

Train for the worst, expect the worse and hope for the best. This way you will not be dissapointed or hurt.

[jkund34]

Someone said they would go for REAL targets like eyes, side of the knee, etc. HELLO! Many MA deal with these targets. If you think you can use the same amount of force to break anyones knee you are wrong. If you think you will easily jab your fingers in someones eye. you are wrong.


You never mentioned what targets you think would be more appropriate.
I personaly think a sidekick to the knee would a little bit better than a kick to someones face, If this wasnt so than knee kicks ,eye gouges, throat strikes,and biting would all be aloud in sport fighting.

[ratman201]

I used to box and my best friend would usually be my sparring partner. Hes 6'2" 240lbs, chubby but mostly muscle and very strong. I'm around 5'7" 145lbs after Thanksgiving dinner. We did this every day for about 1.5 years and in that whole time he knocked me out once. Every other time he was usually pretty tired afer missing my head for 5mins straight. Then I'd work his body untill he couldn't go on. But thats just him and I know him pretty well so it made a difference cause we knew how each other fought. An all I think about MA so I had a better mindset. Also if it was NHB I would have had to do alot of kneeing cause he likes to takle people, but my root is a 1000 times strogger now.

[jmdrake]

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking. I've seen many "qigong" demonstrations and I'm willing to give it the benifit of the doubt, but I have NEVER seen an "iron shirt versus hollow point" demonstration. If this were possible, then wouldn't the "boxer rebellion" have been more successful? And don't forget, the Chinese INVENTED gunpowder! Do you think they would have bothered with it if it could have been nullified by some guys in saffron robes? A grandmaster's only hope against an assault rifle is to be close enough to do a disarm. Otherwise he would need to run for cover just like everybody else.

Regards,

John M. Drake