Pei Mei: sinking power for small persons

[EAZ]

Hello,

While wasting minues of my life reading another mindless flame-up on this forum, I did see an issue that maybe some fellow Pak Mei practitioners could enlighten me with.

Understanding that sinking power on bridging technic is but one technic among many in Pei Mei, I wish to know if any person here has any EXPERIENCE with this technic against taller persons.

I am rather tall and hence have no difficulty with this technic which I rather like. However some shorter people, often women but not always, have difficulty with it.

Is it the case to say that this technic is really only possible, during bridging phase and along center line, against someone equal height or smaller?

I do imagine very well using "local" sinking power and being shorter then the other person, against an arm on the outside for instance, and then appying a movement from 18 frictions form or Kow Peuw Toi for example. In these cases the local sinking only serves to "slingshot" the followup movement.

Thank you for your contributions.

(As a side note someone querried about 5 animals in Wing Shun in Vietnam. A good web site for this: www.shaolinwingchun.com
However I am not sure all is translated into English.)

EAZ

[Leonidas]

Thanx for the link EAZ. I didn't ask for it, but i checked it out anyway. Shaolin Wing Chun has a cool factor of 10. The whole site is worth checking out. That Masters Sifu was a badass too (--He made a smoking pipe out of a highway robbers clavicle after he killed him :cool:--). The style looks sorta like a mix between Wing Chun and Northern Shaolin. In any event it looks legit, its just different from the norm. Who knows. It could be the original form of Wing Chun. I wonder how long it takes to learn though.

[LiLong]

Being on the shorter side of the scale does present problems in using sinking power at a distance. Almost everyone at my kwoon is taller than I am. In order to use sinking power or any other technique with effectiveness I really need to close the gap and get as close to my opponent as possible. Actually sinking combined with intelligent side stepping footwork is beneficial by providing a moving target as opposed to a "sitting duck". Once in, any Pak Mei technique is effective because a taller opponent will not be able to generate power and accuracy effectively at the same time.:cool:

[Yum Cha]

Hi EAZ,
Nice to see you again. Kung Fu Online can indeed be a test of your "internal strength" <grin>.

At just under 6 foot tall, I am tall against the Chinese, but average against the round eyes.

To me, sinking power is used in the way you mentioned quite effectively, that is as a "heavy arm" that binds or traps the opponents arm(s), and then recoils into a strike.

I find that shorter skilled opponents however sometimes can drop lower as a defense, and sometimes evade, especially other pak mei players,who know the drill. They can use the power generated by your sinking to start a circular attack back around if you hesitate, or put too much into it.

Also, perhaps not exactly the same, but certainly related, and certainly useful against taller opponents, sinking power can be used to go under an opponents guard, perhaps with Sak Choi (Straight Punch?), or Seep Choi.

The opponent thinks the punch will come into the guard, but in the execution, the maximum strength is generated by swallowing the belly and dropping into that "low stance" we've previously discussed in some detail.

Sinking is used to generate extra power here, as opposed to bridging. In essence, punching straight through any defense, or going under any defense with a ferocious straight-on attack to solar plexus or lower abdominal targets. Counter attack is a moot point.

Likewise, a dropping soi que attack to the inside of the thigh or knee is suprisingly effective, especially followed up by a rising strike...if you are nimble enough...

Sinking power helps me to balance from over committment in powerful forward strikes, giving more root to the stance and allowing more faht Ging.

As a tall player, do you go under the defense of shorter opponents often?

[LiLong]

Well put Yum Cha!! I actually have used the sort of maneuvers you have mentioned, not against Pak Mei brothers but against Wing Chun cousins. Circular attacks and side stepping work well with sinking to side step wing Chun (as far as my experience is concerned). Though it would appear limited against CLF practioners because they use lots of circular movement from what I have seen. So to most other systems I would use Scared Hands coupled with sinking to close the gap. :cool:

[fiercest tiger]

Sorry yum cha i have to disagree with almost everything you have said here!:(

YC
"Also, perhaps not exactly the same, but certainly related, and certainly useful against taller opponents, sinking power can be used to go under an opponents guard, perhaps with Sak Choi (Straight Punch?), or Seep Choi."

This will get you hurt IMHO seip sau/kuil is more of a cutting and using of angles to break,crush and sink the opponents guard down. ykm has a move called jeet sau which is a downwards angle punch that attacks the lower upper gates of the body, whilst the opponent has his middle or upper gates closed off as he attacks. But i wouldn't try and go under a guard with a sut choy, which will be easily countered in one single move. :rolleyes:

If the opponent is taller use an entry technique that will bring his elbows lower than yours, then you can control him. Remember you have lifting, swallowing, and spitting to use also. Sinking is only one power, if you can't use it at that moment then use another.

Y.C.

"Sinking is used to generate extra power here, as opposed to bridging. In essence, punching straight through any defense, or going under any defense with a ferocious straight-on attack to solar plexus or lower abdominal targets. Counter attack is a moot point."

Sorry I have to disagree here also. Do you know the bak mei principle of hands? When one hand strikes the other follows, when one hand deflects the other attacks!

Sorry Yum Cha for answering you post with such negativity on New Years day. But I think you need to re-access your hand theories.


Sui Fuw,

You are very knowledgeable. I can tell by your post. :)

[CLOUD ONE]

How tall are you F.t compared to Y.C?

If what is Y.C is talking about is a load of cack, what and when was the divergence?

The proof is always in the pudding!!! not lip service.

When one hand strikes the other follows- not neccesarilly!

[fiercest tiger]

i dont understand your question, i answered his post!

Divergence from his post or from his past, what are you trying to ask?:confused:

can you give me a better answer for my hand theories about both hands? anything would be great, why would one hand be doing nothing? i have a different way of thought to you on yum cha's post.

im interested in hearing your views on his post?

im about 5'7 i think im smaller than him! what do you say yum cha?

happy new year

:)

[CLOUD ONE]

I believe timing has a lot to do with your theory.

why 'jek bo' first then 'gow bo tyui' then 'sip bat mor'?

What has this got to do with this thread?

Which is easier to learn?

come on Yum and F.t what are your insights to this?

Sui fuw what is your experiences with Kung Fu road?

BtW have a very happy and enlighting 'gwai lo' New Year.

[Buby]

If you don't mind...

What is your experience with Kung Fu ROAD? Inquiring minds wanna know!

Also, what does Kung Fu mean to you?

Thanks in advance.


Sifu - Very nice!;) Gave me lots to think about, as you always do. Thanks!

Sui-Fuw - What up bro! Hows everything? I plead the 5th.lol

Happy gweilo new year fellas!

Buby

[fiercest tiger]

Let's be fair, I answered your question, why not give us an answer?

Timing is the key to all skills!


:)

[Yum Cha]

No offense taken FT,

There are many techniques, many ways to generate an attack, I'm just talking about one particular type, not the only type, just a principle.

Let me try to be more clearspoken... I'd be really surprised if you guys didn't agreee with me on fundamentals

Ton Tow, Chum Fau, each half has the other half. The question was about generating sinking power, half of a whole.

Simple, forget the actual technique, or where it comes in a combination. We're just talking about types of sinking power and the original question concerned attacking taller opponents.

I'm not saying that I would regularly try to go under someones guard, but it is an option, expecially if the opponent was moving upward, and if you have solid fung ahn choi.

Every move has a counter. Sak Choi can turn into a bui ji by in turn floating. You have to play it in context against a practical opponent.

The point is, by dropping your center of gravity and striking forward, you can issue more strength into the blow. The textbook execution from Jik Bo.

Consider it a principle distinct from the "Heavy arm" sinking power that bridges or traps, like soi que.

What I crudely write as "seep choi" is an attack with the forearm across the body, straight out. Striking at the spleen, just below the ribs, or the solar plexus. Often applied after ducking under a head high attack, in VERY close, head butt range.

I can understand FT saying they don't have the same concept, this is in the area where YKM and PM have different interpretations, but the Hakka boys? Or am I just misunderstanding? Do you have heavy overwhelming attacks as well as the deft boxing? What are your big tiger moves?

I have to admit though, the dropping to the ground leg strikes do come by way of SPM. Its in Ng Yang, but it's more popular in SPM I believe.

Happy New Year everybody.

[EAZ]

Thanks to those who tried to answer my question.

It does specifically concern bridging with sinking power across center line by small person, and not the rest of TTFC concept.

Yum Cha: Thank you I will try your suggestion out on Friday at next practice. I do get the feeling though that shorter people cannot do this part of the TTFC principle as bridging technic, except as suggested by LiLiong (I think) by going outside and taking one arm out. Yet even this seems a bit ilusory because the time it takes you to go around, to get an angle, and then apply the sinking power to the bridge appears to long (At least this is how I understand his comment).

I am enclined to think that FT is right in saying that to apply sinking power along center line you must get opponent elbows below yours first (hence the advantage to being tall). Not an easy thing to do against a skilled opponent who keeps his guard.

And usually if an opponent drops his guard (to block a low kick or fake low punch) you just go straight into the window created, with whatever principle of power you deem appropriate. Many variants.

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for your understanding if I do come across rude and arrogant. My post and my thoughts are not against you or anyone else.

As for differences, Yau Kung Mun and bak mei really are the same. Theories and principles should apply the same depending on the body type of the practitioner as well as what type of power generation they are best at.

What do you think of people that are good at just tun tou and not fou chum?

Do you think you have learned these properly or are you better at just a couple of them?

I've noticed at one of your training session on Saturday, that you guys tun/swallow a lot. Is there a reason?

[fiercest tiger]

Thats the whole point here, is getting chum ging useful you have to get inside and yum cha's theory in my book would have been scary.

once your in close YES chum the MOFO..HEHEHE:D

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by sui-fuw

who you calling boy,you old f@rt on crack,whats your real question?is it,could a person like myself hanle bigger overwelmiing men like you?
with what and how you write,you'll be asleep before the answer and when you wake up you'll still not know the answer:D
chum cannot survive alone at any cost.why yum cha?:p

Just a second while I dust off my reading glasses, and roll my chair closer to light so I can see the email my nurse printed out...ok, that's better....

My question was not if a little guy could beat a big guy, but if you hakka stylists used a sinking power other than in bridging?

And, what you considered your big tiger moves?

"Who you calling boy?" Never heard that from a Chinaman before....perhaps a Chinese American?

Chum cannot survive alone without it's brother, or its cousins. Its a family thing, but you know that, right?

:D

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
As for differences, Yau Kung Mun and bak mei really are the same. Theories and principles should apply the same depending on the body type of the practitioner as well as what type of power generation they are best at.

What do you think of people that are good at just tun tou and not fou chum?

Do you think you have learned these properly or are you better at just a couple of them?

I've noticed at one of your training session on Saturday, that you guys tun/swallow a lot. Is there a reason?

Obviously, there are many weakenses amongst many people, being good at only part of a complete system is on one hand a weakness, but on the other hand at least one part done well. I know I have many weaknesses, but what can a poor boy do but stay on the path?

:D :D

Lets not get into the differences between YKM and PM again. Perhaps its just personal style perhaps it is THE style, but until we get together and work it out in physical demonstration, its not worth the effort. Until you show me some patterns and I can judge against what I know from the other YKM players I know, and we compare notes. I don't like argueing when there is no opportunity for clear understanding at the end, especially when we are so close, and can really gain something.


EAZ

When you drop and deliver Sak Choi, the other hand has to clear the opponents arms, either to the side, when you attack there, or upwards, when you attack centerline, does that make sense?

[fiercest tiger]

You are correct, when we get together it will all sorted out.:)

im not arguing about any of this, its all abilities when we get down to it! no flames here...:cool:

please dont judge me against other ykm player as im only still young at it! :( there are good and bad in every system!!


I wasnt trying to start anything as i said its my personal opinion on the way i teach and what i know of fighting.:)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha



EAZ

When you drop and deliver Sak Choi, the other hand has to clear the opponents arms, either to the side, when you attack there, or upwards, when you attack centerline, does that make sense?

Yes, thank you.

This is risky in my book though.

EAZ

[Yum Cha]

EAZ,
Yes, risky. Is there a particular kind of fighting that isn't risky? <grinning>

Honestly, I know exactly what you mean, and agree it is risky, and needs to be much practiced.

Everyone needs to find what works for them, fits their body type and spirit.

A big guy makes it his own in a way a little man doesn't.

Also important is the understanding how opponents think, and where they see openings in your position based upon your relative size, speed and attitude. And, how you can manipulate that understanding to advantage.

Strategy and techniques must go hand in hand.

[fiercest tiger]

True, strategy and technique go hand in hand!

See i favour certain strikes that i find finish a fight quickly and aggressively, so i set up what i want to do. Strategy is another very important factor in a street fight. ALTHOUGH!
In my years of security and door work, i have found strategy works more when the other person isn't aware, and usually you can finish the person off pretty fast. But when its the opposite, awareness, skill and quick thinking is the key! You have no stratergy if you dont know whats around the corner if you know what i mean? :D FEAR should be used as a positive modivator here and understood how to use this deadly force. This is pure shock power!! Use the adrenilin and fear as your power source, rather not as a bad thing.

have i gone off track here, ive lost what im talking about!

:D

thanks for warm welcome at the park saturday, we should do this more often!;)

[Yum Cha]

You make a good point FT,
in fear and shock reactions, your training, not your thinking comes to the forefront. Another good reason to burn it into your body as well as your mind.

Nice seeing you too.

[fiercest tiger]

If it aint repetition, it aint subconscious, if it aint subconscious your too slow!

your dead;)

[CLOUD ONE]

sorry I don't understand!
If you are aware how can you be shocked? You practice this shock power by doing repition after repition but how do you practice the stimuli?

How o you practice stategy on a complete stranger?
IMO there is no stagety in a fight, only principles.

I agree that if you have to think in a fight you are going to be slow it is not as if you are sparring, you want to rip the guys head off if you are going to fight.

This is where awarenes comes in I think. In a fight when do you know you have had enough?

[fiercest tiger]

totally agree with you!

ok, what im saying is fear is part of shock power. well to me but may not be you. Aware of whats around you, like bins, poles, people, bottles! I never walk down the street unaware of whats around me, sometimes i watch people walking towards me and being aware if they have there hand in their jacket like holding a weapon, anything etc. I try and see and be aware of my suroundings!

The shock is the inital attack and your responce to it, using the easiest and a natural attack where your body can generate power without thought.

Training in sensitvity and 2 man, multiple attackers, free fighting, drills etc for reflexive action!

[EAZ]

I must take issue on this:

The whole point of self realisation in proper kung fu is to transcend action reaction paradigm, I 'm sure many would agree (yes I know it's more complicated then that but I'm trying to stay on subject).

If you train like say a Western boxer, or many kung fu schools where you simply apply set combinations, you are merely reacting to a situation as your opponent is. You may become very good, even deadly, and at a much faster pace then the OTHER training method but a) you cap off at certain point, never truely becoming unbeatable as someone will have trained action/reaction sequence 10% better then you b) you are completely off the track of enlightenment through fighting. You simply have become a more efficient animal.

I have seen on this forum that many are aware of 3 levels of fighting training: 1) you react to opponent 2) you are able to follow your opponent 3) you lead opponent.

It all boils down to: when agression appears, usually at a random moment in ones life in whatever form (but certainly including someone who wants to kick your head in), you must transcend reaction and simply act.

This is possible if you have sufficient Shen or refined internal energy, which can only be gained through practice....but not through action reaction training.

Of course, we must practice technics and application of forms etc., but I was taught to be very careful of the trap of fixed seqeances. If they are too internalised they lead you away from martial arts path. (although handy I agree in a practical sense if you haven't got the Shen, to beat defend oneself.

All of this is of course IMHO.

(FT: tried out your one 1-10 step technic, quite fun and everyoine enjoyed it. Did differnt type of foot movements, then with bridge joined, then random steps in both direction. Much more fun then the way we were doing it before. Thanks.)

[fiercest tiger]

You can also attack doing 1-10's while the guy on the back foot is attacking also. chase each other backwards and forwards, then add zig zag footwork etc.

im glad you liked it!:)

we gotta practise forms in order to get techniques,strength, etc but, dont stick to using the moves always in sequences in a fight. you should be able to flow using any moves from any forms at any instance at any fighting range. You must understand what works best for you in different fighting ranges too!

[Buby]

I don't care what any body says....Your aight man!:D

We got the package!:) :) :) :) :) :)

I'll catch you on msn tonight or I'll give you a call.

Take care,

Buby

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
sorry I don't understand!
If you are aware how can you be shocked? You practice this shock power by doing repition after repition but how do you practice the stimuli?

How do you practice stategy on a complete stranger?
IMO there is no stagety in a fight, only principles.

I agree that if you have to think in a fight you are going to be slow it is not as if you are sparring, you want to rip the guys head off if you are going to fight.

This is where awarenes comes in I think. In a fight when do you know you have had enough?

Strategy? I suggest you read Mushashi and Song Shan (?), Book of 5 Rings, and the Art of War. Just to get you started.

Shock power, adrenaline, startle reflex, I suppose these are all related. Surprise is the strategic element. Defensive of offensive. I'm a little confused just exactly what everybody is talking about directly, there seems to be some different interpretations.

Fight or flight reflex from adrenaline rushing through the body is a common physical reaction, controlling it is not so common, and using it to your advantage is ideal.

Combat is more significant than ripping off someones head, sometimes they have two heads, and perhaps a pointed tail. You need to make use of all the resources of your mind and body.

EAZ is talking, I believe, about the emptyness of mind you need for the most efficient execution of your martial art. Japanese call it mind like water.

I and FT (if I read him correctly) suggest that the best way to get beyond the conscious deliberation, is through the exercise of techniques into the subconciousness. Once you have internalised a dozen of more, they begin to breed in your subconciousness, adapt, blend. 10,000 times

You start one combination, and end up finishing another, or jumping to an alternative due to the way things presented themselves. You ad-lib different steps in a pattern because you want to jump further or you cut them out because you want to do the whole thing in a 2metre square. Here you gain that understanding, that goes beyond the conditioned techniques and the understanding.

Soon all techniques become one technique, and all the combinations become one combination, without thought. Does that make sense from your side EAZ? You have to work it out yourself, it comes to different people in different ways.

Strategically, fear, surprise, intimidation, confusion, deception are quite relevant, unless somebody hits you with a pool cue from behind, that is. Not necessarily part of a pattern, but part of combat.

Somebody may have a nice animal theory to go with this too...

[fiercest tiger]

Well its about time it got there!

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha


I and FT (if I read him correctly) suggest that the best way to get beyond the conscious deliberation, is through the exercise of techniques into the subconciousness. Once you have internalised a dozen of more, they begin to breed in your subconciousness, adapt, blend. 10,000 times

You start one combination, and end up finishing another, or jumping to an alternative due to the way things presented themselves. You ad-lib different steps in a pattern because you want to jump further or you cut them out because you want to do the whole thing in a 2metre square. Here you gain that understanding, that goes beyond the conditioned techniques and the understanding.

Soon all techniques become one technique, and all the combinations become one combination, without thought. Does that make sense from your side EAZ? You have to work it out yourself, it comes to different people in different ways.


Somebody may have a nice animal theory to go with this too...

Yes this is in line with what I am taught. Forms must be practiced ceaselessly until internalised, this is called "making the mold" then you "break the mold" by mixing movements.

The principle is also for continuous power generation of 5 elements. In order to maintain maximum energy in fight, you must contantly transform your movements and type of strengh. Thus the link with Yi King.

IMHO as how I have assimilated what I have been taught.

[CLOUD ONE]

Please in your own words what does these books you mention mean?

If emptiness of mind is what you are talking about where does your strategy theory fit in?

You said surprise is the strategic element defensive or offensive.

If you were using the element of surprise is your mind empty?
If you were surprised from someone is your mind empty?

Combat- yes sometimes they may have two heads and a pointy tail or they may have long pointy ears and goofy teeth with four hooves and go ee-oh, ee-oh. What is your point?

I agree with one point though you have the best stategy on deception:eek:

So eaz does that mean you have no two-man drills? how are you careful not to get too'internalised'?
What martial arts path are you talking about?

[Yum Cha]

I understand what you mean, if your mind is empty, how can it be full of strategic considerations, and it is a fair point. Sounds like a Koan....

If you are curious start with the Book of 5 rings. 5 Rings allows for the emptyness of mind, and how to understand and develop it in the book of Water. There are 4 other books (rings) that look at other aspects. Book of Ground, Water, Fire, Air, etc...

It is only a very little book, you can probably read it in an afternoon, and you could certainly find out if it interests you by scanning it in a book store. It is often kept in the corporate and business strategy section as well as Asian philosophy.

Mind you, it is a japanese viewpoint, and Mushashi (I hope the spelling is correct) was a swordsman, but the principles are very "plural" interpretation.

It is certainly worth a look, I would only do injustice if I tried to paraphrase it here.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
Please in your own words what does these books you mention mean?

If emptiness of mind is what you are talking about where does your strategy theory fit in?

You said surprise is the strategic element defensive or offensive.

If you were using the element of surprise is your mind empty?
If you were surprised from someone is your mind empty?

Combat- yes sometimes they may have two heads and a pointy tail or they may have long pointy ears and goofy teeth with four hooves and go ee-oh, ee-oh. What is your point?

I agree with one point though you have the best stategy on deception:eek:

So eaz does that mean you have no two-man drills? how are you careful not to get too'internalised'?
What martial arts path are you talking about?

I'm not sure all your comments are directed at me, as I do not beleive I said anything about surprise or deception or strategy per say.

So I answer the last point: you are correct to say that 2 man drills are rare in our school and handled in a particular fashion. While we break apart forms and practice application of each sequence, we do not practice systematically in each class loops of 2 man movements that engrain reflexes. "Breaking the mold" means freeing oneself from causality (very much IMHO this is my conclusion on way I have been taught and could be al least partially false). It takes a great amount of energy to be effortless and free, unthinking in mvement and drilling to many set two man forms regularly puts the practitioner in danger of merely chaining himself to law of causality i.e. he can always be defeated.

So I say yes to not using rational thought when fighting, indeed of no use, and no to use of simple reflex patterns. Patterns are attachments to reality, thus obeying law od cause and effect and ultimately chaining a person to reality. Pretty stadard Buddhisto-taoïst theory.

Link to Yi King: if you even roughly adhere to the previous paragraph, then it is easy to project on to Yi King (although it is most important to get a version with all the traditional comentaries - not just on the hexagrams themselves, but also on cosmologcal creation theory of Yi King.

By the way, a more advanced student of martial arts teased me the other day regarding the "magic square", which is part of the creation theory of Yi King: he said that there was an actual strategy in martail arts fighting that is VISUALLY represente by this diagram. I have been trying to figure it out even since.

I wonder if FT knows about this seeing as I remember him talking on a previous post about 18 frictions in Pei Mei as "6*3" etc... with someone else.

Does this mean anything to anyone?

[fiercest tiger]

8 directions are used for attacking and defending, 5 elements are moves nothing special, not magical just a theory of attack and defense again.

Hi EAZ,
Whats your views on 5 elements? do you have a form called ng hung mor?

:)

[CLOUD ONE]

Could any one explain why the mimick or the characteristics of animals?
Could a tiger fight like a crane?
Can the wind act like water?

F.t I believe it is more than just moves;)

Couldn't someone practice a technique once and it is in thier subconcious? What is the subconcious?

[fiercest tiger]

Hehehe,

well im not going to give away too much! but it is more than what i said...;)

[jon]

"Could any one explain why the mimick or the characteristics of animals?"
- We dont 'mimick' an animal we mainifest its spirit and essence.
Characteristic is obvious, animals are the best natural fighters on the planet... who else has to fight for food and survival on a daily basis?
Characteristics are simple yet pliable... How does a tiger behave when its wounded and needs to flee?

"Could a tiger fight like a crane?"
-Could a tiger contruct buildings or write novels?
Can a human understand the reasoning a tiger has for stalking its prey? Or a crane standing on one leg to preserve its energy?
Also unfortunatly much as i would LOVE to be really able to fight exactly like a tiger or crane. I neither have four legs or wings... I just have to make do with what i have. Though i do have some aspects that neither of those animals do, can you guess it?

"Can the wind act like water?"
For the real answer to that you would need to consult the wind and water. My theory would still be yes...
Both are formless, both are strong yet both cannot be grasped in a physical form, would that count as acting like?

"Couldn't someone practice a technique once and it is in thier subconcious?" "
-No
"What is the subconcious?"
- The level of concious below your current one?
Seriously your subconcious is your non analyzing mind. Its what you 'know' and are not 'thinking' about. For a technique to be there it must be part of your physical make up. You can understand the concept and have that at a subconcious level well before that actual technique will be.

Just my theorys on your questions.
Regards.
Jon

[guohuen]

Hi Eaz! Great thread. I think the "magic square" are the four compass points with you in the middle representing "earth". As previously mentioned , more modern thinkers use eight compass points. My experience with explaining animal spirit to those that haven't at least witnessed it is don't bother.

[fiercest tiger]

this is really easy to understand

center = earth, spleen
top = fire, heart
bottom = water, kidneys
left = wood, liver
right = metal, lung

there is more to 5 elements, it gets deeper!:)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
8 directions are used for attacking and defending, 5 elements are moves nothing special, not magical just a theory of attack and defense again.

Hi EAZ,
Whats your views on 5 elements? do you have a form called ng hung mor?

:)

(I'm back after a few days away, sorry I did not answer any faster)

yes we have 5 elements form. It is taught at advanced master level. I have not been taught it.

"magical" I'm aware is just a standard expression in Chinese and I did not want to quonote anything then repeat the words used when talked about this.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
this is really easy to understand

center = earth, spleen
top = fire, heart
bottom = water, kidneys
left = wood, liver
right = metal, lung

there is more to 5 elements, it gets deeper!:)

A lot to say:

1st: Yi King theory leads to 5 elements theory which is directely related to five animals, the martial arts version or parlance of Yi King theory.

While I have also been taught things like body parts for 5 animals, the spiriit of Dragon or SHen, courage of Tiger part of body = bones etc. it was not my intention to discuss this in this thread.

2nd: I am also aware that in Yi King commentary there are in fact two squares, one with 4 directions (which is post of FT taken above and called "magic square") and one with 8.

3rd: the point made to me by my martial arts friend and more experienced practitioner, was that in the "magic square" could also be interpreted in a COMPLETELY VISUAL MANNER, and that the sequence of numbers, odd and even on the square, even their very appearance (a series of dots) hold a fundamental theory on how to attack opponent. A mini book of strategy if you will.

So to get ball rolling for those who are interested in discussing this:
-either this is a top down visual or a portrait shot. In both cases, the number 5 in middle (earth) could be maybe a body with 2 arms and 2 legs. Somehow you move around it I think it has somehting to do with either timing of movements or number of attacks possible or something like that.

- maybe I'm going in the wrong direction.

If this is the case and no one has any better ideas, then let us go back to ba gua notion of 8 directions. FT: do you wish to say anything about Ba Gua in fighting or forms. FOr instance, why in Ba Gua added to name of beginning Pak Mei forms in many schools, is this taoiste influence on school, mere window dressing, or does it give meaning to forms concerned?

EAZ

[EAZ]

Just a word on 5 animals ->5 elements -> 6 basic hexegrammes (or 5 +1).

EAch "animal" contains 4 other ones, and so on so it actually a completely fractal concept. When you freeze the picture you get 5 animals/elements, but this is just a conveniant explanation for reasoning mind.

In combat, as well as search for truth, secret is to transform ceaselessly from one form to another and maintain continuous power.

(There is a whole teaching on this principle but will not go into it on net)

But aa crude Example: when you give a punch with one hand, you cannot give identical punch with same hand without interrupting power generation. (say you have to pull arm back again before wacking opponent again, very inefficeint). SO what do you do to maintain continous powergeneration to destroy opponent, you must transform this punch by, for exemple a) grabbing oopoenet you have just hit by his arm if he blocked you or shirt or whatever and push/pull him b) roll shoulder to rearm fist and through "one inch punch" (avoiding bringing back your hand to wind up for punch....etc... ceaselessly changeing, unpredictable and continuous power.
(Of course you have other hand :-) )

I will go no further in this as I have crossed the line of what is kept in school. But I hope it will enhance exchange here.

[fiercest tiger]

howdy,
5 elements are used for the destruction cycle of the opponent, look at the angle and the strike , what meridian you are effecting!
also 5 elements and animals can go together. who is your teacher? who did he learn ng hung mor off?
b,gua
footwork and angle of attack of the elements, buy entering one of 8 gates.

how many gates does your bak mei school have on the body for attacking?:)

[EAZ]

This discussion is interesting. There is a potential though that we are mixing up different terminologies to speak of related issues and thus in danger of not understanding eachother. Furthermore, I have not been taught the full cycle of fighting theory, my teacher prefering to make me discover it from almost scratch (though he does mercifully say yes/ no to my questions. But I mention this because I am pretty sure you are a ways down the road ahead of me in the ways of fighting. Coupled with confusion on terminology, it is dificult for me to grasp some of the aspects you bring up.

Now to answer your questions:


Originally posted by fiercest tiger
howdy,
5 elements are used for the destruction cycle of the opponent, look at the angle and the strike , what meridian you are effecting!
also 5 elements and animals can go together. who is your teacher? who did he learn ng hung mor off?
b,gua
footwork and angle of attack of the elements, buy entering one of 8 gates.

how many gates does your bak mei school have on the body for attacking?:)

"destruction cycle of opponent" : is this related to my superciial explanation in my previous post on the nature of transformation of energy between two people attacking eachother? - as to meridians you are affecting, I am aware that the type of movmeent you make is related to internal energy (and meridians), classified along 5 elements lines: you affect your own bodies energy circulation depending on what type of movmeent you make (I am assuming you are not talking about affecting meridians of opponent )

Of course 5 elements = 5 animals ! The previous masters merely transposed medical theory to martial technics through 5 animals.


My teacher: Nam Anh.

I assume he learnt ng hung mor from his teachers of Pei Mei, I never asked him. (I have posted geneology elsewhere but will again if you want)

"Ba Gua footwork" I have never heard this terminology used in my training. Can you expound on this so that I may have a chance to relate to it?

"Angle of attack of elements" Not sure I understand this either. Each strike has
- a point of departure
- a trajectory
- a point of impact
Each element deals with these three phases differently. Does this explanation fit in your words? As a hint to those reading this post as to what this means in my school, the 9 steps pushing form of Pei Mei is in fact of Dragon, because Dragon is continuous pushing pulling, and that is what you emphesise in this form.

"8 gates" I must admit that while I see this terminology all over this forum, it has not been explained to me in htis manner (or at all for that matter !)

I imagine that it refers to dividing up body of opponent into areas/targets (though you appear to associate the exact ANGLE of attack with element. This is foreign to me (for now). The type of attack you make in each window is more important than angle in my opinion.

May I entice you then, FT, to expound a bit more on ,"gua
footwork and angle of attack of the elements, buy entering one of 8 gates. "

All the best,
EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

i'll try my best to discribe, its hard when my typing ability and grammer is crap!:( plus i would rather show you what i mean, much easier.

your confused, ive confused myself ..lol:rolleyes:

my sifu didnt talk much about this as he didnt speak english and i didnt speak cantonese. i study and travel plus talk to many ykm/pak mei masters to find my answers here.

attacking the 5 elements of your opponent as well as using the energy for healing your five elements. anytime you are striking you will upset the opponents energy, anyone of them it could be. but attacking in a certain order will destroy the energy of the opponents organ, its in the forms or the techniques.

all stances are used in 8 directions for attack and defence, all hands should aslo attack in eight directions. say mun b'gua uses only 4 doors off attack front, back, left, and right at a basic level. dont forget there are gates of attack on the body that dont relate to angle of attack..does this make sense? im kinda losing it here trying to discribe to you sorry if it doesnt make sense.:(

hope this helps:)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger

attacking the 5 elements of your opponent as well as using the energy for healing your five elements. anytime you are striking you will upset the opponents energy, anyone of them it could be. but attacking in a certain order will destroy the energy of the opponents organ, its in the forms or the techniques.

all stances are used in 8 directions for attack and defence, all hands should aslo attack in eight directions. say mun b'gua uses only 4 doors off attack front, back, left, and right at a basic level. dont forget there are gates of attack on the body that dont relate to angle of attack..does this make sense? im kinda losing it here trying to discribe to you sorry if it doesnt make sense.:(

hope this helps:)

The first paragraphe is completely new to me, although intuitively I have a vague toehold on the idea.

The second paragraph: to be honest nop I cannot understand it either. But I'm trying.... When you say say mun ba gua uses 4 doors, what moves for instance characterises attack on each direction? Better yet in cross form/ Serk Si , what specific moves are there in this form? FOr instance back door: should I look for movement that simulates attack on back/rearside of person? Or are gates in relation to me? i.e. 8 directions radiate from me, viewed from above?

Gulp yes this is really hard in writing: in HK version of 3 gates (VN is very different), the opening moves are move North in canon fist I think then retreat, North West(NW) then retreat, North East and double block : Looks like this, where "O" is starting position:

\ ! /
0

Is this what you mean by front, left and right for instance?


Does it help? you ask well, not really, it just proove the need for rapid development of suborbital shuttle for easy travel from Europe to Australia! But your efforts to explain are still greeted most warmly ! :-)

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

Im trying man , im trying my best!lol:)

4 doors is like sek see, sup jee! there are doors of entry from angles and gates on the body to attack also known as doors!

how many gates/doors does your body have?:)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Im trying man , im trying my best!lol:)

4 doors is like sek see, sup jee! there are doors of entry from angles and gates on the body to attack also known as doors!


I think I understand your explanation a bit more now. In what forms would there be eight doors?


Suifew: I spoke a bit fast; it is correct to say that in our system there is also a seperate learning regarding animals and what they represent; but ultimately they are linked to 5 elements.

[CLOUD ONE]

Eaz interesting thread.
Could you or F.t explain what is the link?

[EAZ]

I assume you ask what is the link between sinking power, small people and 8 gates/doors? I don't know it just flowed that way, see for yourself.

Nodoubt certain doors are more open to smaller people than larger....

[fiercest tiger]

dark arts! i belong to the light, what about you?:D

[CLOUD ONE]

If all you see is light where are you standing?
If all you see is dark where are you standing?

If you just see grey your in ?

I believe all this is in the theory of animals and elements, since we are made up of both. Aren't we?

[fiercest tiger]

If the 5 animals and 5 elements dont relate, which one do you consider more effective in combat?

why?:)

cheers
FT

[EAZ]

I am happy that this thread is fairly tame.

It would also be nice if people made an extra effort to pay attention to flow of subject instead of just saying NOOOO ! That specific thing you said is wrong !

Would it not be wiser to try to contribute to a thread by ADDING information, and of course clarifying what is poorly interpreted by my confused self (and maybe any other confused selves).

For instance Sui-Few: Might you be able to develop your point of view? Simply stating that things are false does not really contribute to anyones reading, in my opinion.

As it stands now, as what I have said I have been at least partially able to validate by practice, I consider your opinions to be a) true but part of some other part of the vast lore of Martial arts (being polite and open minded) b)simply false. (being impolite and closed minded)

EAZ

[CLOUD ONE]

;) Sui fuw sorry I don't understand. What does dark mean to you?

F.T are you saying you can have one without the other?

Eaz-True or false how do we really decide?

[BIU JI]

Is your sifu Jie Kon Sieuw by any chance? I believe he is from Hakka lineage! Or maybe you are Jie Kon Sieuw !hmmm;)

[fiercest tiger]

my question was is there a difference in technique when comparing 5 elements or 5 animals??:D the way its performed, and are they 2 different fighting theories?:)

when you are talking about your yin and yang, where you are standing, you are obviously talking fighting pholosphy? ill say the way you have it sounds like you are in the zone! either in or out, no middle ground?? ive never heard this saying before, sorry if i have disappointed you on the answer!:rolleyes:

cloud one, sui fuw, eaz, yum cha,

Do you guys use 5 element theories in combat? Is it worth studying 5 element theories(not the form 5 elements) as in destruction cycle on the dim ma, dim yuet skills?

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
cloud one, sui fuw, eaz, yum cha,

Do you guys use 5 element theories in combat? Is it worth studying 5 element theories(not the form 5 elements) as in destruction cycle on the dim ma, dim yuet skills?

FT, I suggest that if you do Pak Mei, you use these principles, you may, however not know them as those principles or speak to them. We don't focus on these, but I wouldn't say we don't use them or we don't.

For example, we all know our combinations of 3, 4, etc... Why were they constucted so? Why do they work the way they do? Further, what makes one pattern different to another? How do you choose the type and location of an attack?

The answers are in your "hands" already if you are trained properly.

Also, its not all about fighting techniques, or at least to me.

[BIU JI]

I've been busy training and haven't had time for the forum, I know I've denied you the attention you so much crave . I'm sorry I forgot about your sifu my mistake. Let me rephrase my question then, aah hum ,,,,, Was your sifu Jie Kon Sieuw?

If I'm wrong I apologise, it's just you are so **** MYSTERIOUS:D

[EAZ]

Originally posted by sui-fuw
i said that i disagree not that your wrong and my imput is not to help you but to ridicule you which isnot false either way you know best for yourself too:) so don't get your knickers in a twist.my opinion you have no idea,[another one that sees just words:)] ?

Thank you for being so clear! I appreciate that fact that while you are conscienciously rude in your speech by your own admission, you are honest!

A very anthroplogical experience talking with you.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger

cloud one, sui fuw, eaz, yum cha,

Do you guys use 5 element theories in combat? Is it worth studying 5 element theories(not the form 5 elements) as in destruction cycle on the dim ma, dim yuet skills?

Yes we use theory of 5 elements for actual fighting technics, although it is not formally structured as such. The starting point is 5 elements cycle of creation adn destruction, which (as mentioend in Yi KIng), is equivalent to transformation basic units that make up hexagrams.: Big yang, small yang, (neutral), small yin, big yin. As you know for example, big yin beats small yang, big yang beats big yin. (I invent nothing here of course just reading texts). transposed to fighting technics, (sorry to bring up animals again), snake beats tiger and dragon beats snake. This superficial reading is starting point of a certain part of combat theory.

(FT: maybe you were refering to this before, my slow brain just clicked into place)

EAZ

[EAZ]

I admit it. Sui-Fuw you're finally getting to me.

Who are you exactly?

What I know is:

- you are not a native English speaker (if you are I could help you out with evenning courses if you like)
- you are totally anonymous
- you comment on every post here
- you have a lot of free time so either a unemployed, a millionaire or a student
- 90% of posts involve some type of insult
- you definitely practice martial arts although which ones I don't know
- you claim to be a student, not a teacher
- you claim to know a whole lot about martial arts although rarely unravel your thoughts
- you make off the wall comments which seem to make sense to you but are difficult to follow for outsider (se previous "air space" comment)

(FYI: you have made a misstake: I am not French (nor American for that matter) )

Might you do a a strip down in front of us all, and give us a tiny peek at who you are, so as to better appreciate your "verve", taunts, sly comments and mysterious allusions?

Thought so.

All right, you are the court jester of this forum, licenced apparently to go after anyone you please, free to roam....

I guess this forum has no purpose in your scheme of things...

[fiercest tiger]

can u explain more on big yang big yin, small yin, big yin theories please?

:)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by sui-fuw
o come on?don't be like that,i do want to be your freind.i'm showing you that for a chinese person how easy we all toy with you gwai-los,thats all.i'm afraid if i "come out" i will be ridculed and not accepted in your societys.please forgive me as i don't want to be told off again,by f.t.
also,i was just joking and yes my sense of humour is terrible but i do try to not let it out,also why so seriouse on k.f.please lighten up and i'll try to be nice,what do you say:)


Wow ! a deal !! Sincerely appreciate it.

And I promise to lighten up too!

(Do you think you could mention if you practice Pei Mei so that I may more highly value your imput on the subject. You appear knowledgable but crytpic so sometimes it is hard to see whether you are trying to contribute or not)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
can u explain more on big yang big yin, small yin, big yin theories please?

:)


(Sound of shuffling papers) I just pulled out Yi King to look for reference...all right I can't find it and have to go to diner:

It is section were they say

-- yin
--

___ yang
___

- - small yang
__

__ smalll yin
- -


(near place they talk of magic square )

Anyways:
wood - fire - earth - metal - water
tiger - dragon - leopard - snake - crane
small yang - big yang - small yin- big yin - netral/balanced

I do not wish to explain more (need I it's now fairly obvious for fighting i.e. destruction cycle etc...)

Just to let fly some heavy shells: the two animal emblematic of Wing Chun are Snake and Crane: it is no coincidence that Pak Mei are Tiger and Leopard. For reference see chinese rymes of both schools regarding aquisition of bridge- and probably explains CLC complementarity of Dragon (although of course both styles should be using full 5 forces/elements it's just a floavour...)

How's that?

(I stress that this in ONLY ONE ASPECT, only one interpretation, but nonetheless in our system a good appetizer.)

To go further, especially on an open forum, is to invoke the wrath of he Gods.

However, FT ,(or anyone else hanging around) this should not stop you from showing me a bit more or "yours" now that I've shown you a bit of "mine".

EAZ

[Rolling_Hand]

Sui-fuw,

hahaha... finally you made me laugh!
This is positive, though it may take you a while to catch on.

[Yum Cha]

EAZ,
I never thought of you as a native English speaker, but a well educated professional totally comfortable in English. But, and I quote:

"A very anthroplogical experience talking with you."

What an exceptional turn of phrase!

Sorry, I can't contribute anything valuable to this conversation, so instead, how about a link to the new website of the Cheung Lai Cheun Athletic Association in Hong Kong?

http://pakmei.in2000.com

On a personal topic:
How about some help from the Chinese speakers? What is the difference between a Ba Qua and a Ba Fat?

I know a Ba Qua is the 8 sided emblem with the trigrams from the I Ching, but what is a Ba Fat?

[fiercest tiger]

long time no here:)

batt fat= 8 main techniques of the bak mei system:D

[EAZ]

Yum: thanks for the link. I'll check it out right now! Their site has been down for so long!


FT: Can you expound on Bat Fat?

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

see if you can look up batt fat from an early thread by shaolin master. Cannonfist put up the batt fat there!!:)

no need to repeat it, its all there mate!


yum cha
do u have to get a translater to change the chinese or what for the bak mei website?

cheers
FT:)

[Yum Cha]

Yea FT, you got to get a translator, no English section, but a few good pix.

[EAZ]

Hi,

Tried a translator and got an unintelligeable result.

ANybody able to translate site properly?

FT: Will check out batt fat, thanks.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
see if you can look up batt fat from an early thread by shaolin master. Cannonfist put up the batt fat there!!:)

no need to repeat it, its all there mate!

FT:)

I just spent 2 hours trying to find reference to Batt Fat in previous posts for the past Year: unsuccessfully. I see no references to 8 main technics of BM system. If you have the information handy could you please post it HERE.


EAZ