Why no identifiably good Kung Fu in MMA events?

[Merryprankster]

Please help this thread get a lot of hits fellas, I'm hoping it will be a good one.

I've been doing some thinking lately, which is probably not altogether a good thing, but still....

I want to know why there has been no identifiably good Kung Fu in MMA? This is going to be a long one.

I work from the following structure:

1. Self defense has as much, if not more to do with common sense, situational awareness and verbal cues and diffusement than fighting skill per se.

2. Once a fight has been entered, you have exited the "self defense," portion of your encounter, and entered squarely into the combat phase.

3. Combat in the street, in this day and age, can be extremely dangerous, if not deadly. Combat undertaken for the purpose of proving who has the better style or who is the better fighter are no longer conducted in an honorable manner. Your opponent's friend might cut you down.

4. Many legal ramifications exist to street combat... and let's face it: most of us have jobs we'd like to keep, and not be cornholed by bubba the one toothed wonder.

5. Ringfighting is, by definition, combat sport. Certain rules are going to be in place to protect the safety of the fighters. These rules may vary from place to place. It is not "streetfighting," but, it is as close as we can come, legally, these days without getting in some very real trouble. In other words, it's the best we've got.

6. Consequently, the logical place to test yourself is legal combat... a ring.


I pose the following common criticisms and my counterarguments:

1. Criticism: "Grapplers have a ring fighting advantage because ring fighting imposes too many restrictions on when, where, and how strikes can be delivered, ie, no knees/elbows to the base of the spine, no soccer-style kicks to the head, etc."
Response: "Grapplers" suffer their fair share of annoyances too. The round system means that all that work to take you to the ground is nullified when the bell rings. Fighters are frequently returned to their feet if there is no ground action. As a grappler, I can no longer knee you in the head or the side from control positions. Small joint breaks are illegal. Lightwieght gloves have made repeated, full power head shots feasible and damaging. The gloves themselves are kind of a pain in the ass to grapple with. The softer surface reduces the impact of slams. In the end, it all works out about even.

2. Criticism: "Dirty tactics," are not allowed and this inhibits "traditional," artists.
Response: An attack delivered to the head with the hand is a "punch," an attack delivered to the groin with the knee/foot, is a knee or kick. They are no more difficult to defend against than a regular closed fist punch or knee or kick. If you can't punch me in the head, you sure as hell can't eye strike or throat strike me or hit me in a specific pressure point. If I can counter a punch, I can counter an eye strike or throat strike. If I can defend leg kicks and knees to the body, I can defend kicks and knees to the groin. If you can't hit my leg with a kick, you can't hit my groin. If you can't hit me in the face with a punch, you can't eye strike me. Am I to believe then, that somehow, these particular techniques will make all the difference to a trained fighter who can presumably deliver knees, kicks and punches with bad intentions and dangerous results already? Also, shouldn't a good MAist easily be able to adapt? Instead of a throat strike, you punch him in the face... that technique calls for a groin shot? Follow up with a kick to the midsection instead, etc.
Eye-gouging, biting, throat tears, groin tears, fishhooks, accurate pressure point manipulation and flesh tears all happen within grappling range. If anything, the restriction on these techniques limits the one who has better control in the grappling range than anybody else. Surely, a stand-up type fighter would prefer that these techniques be eliminated!

3. Criticism: "We train to have an edge against those untrained folks out there. The Ring isn't real life. We train for things we might see in real life."
Response: And what if that untrained fellow adopts a Muay Thai stance and starts throwing punishing kicks... or that guy shoots in and doesn't do the bum rush... or he throws a nice tight hook instead of a roundhouse swipe? You are either practicing moves that work on the untrained AND trained, or you are training poorly (this is not a dig on Kung Fu... I've heard this one out of a LOT of different folks). The corrollary is that if it works on the trained, then it has a good chance of working in the ring, unless otherwise prohibited.

I realize that some KF types just aren't interested in the ring... well, many MMA types aren't either, so that can't account for everybody. What about the ones that are? There have to be some good KF guys out there capable of bringing it to the ring and using identifiable KF in their matches. So where are they?

Once again, not trying to be offenseive, just trying to provoke some thought.

[Paul]

Ever heard of San Shou? Why don't any mixed martial artists fight in San Shou matches? Or do they? I have no desire to roll around on the ground with another guy if I don't have to. The guy trying to rob me at the ATM probably isn't going to know BJJ.

Speaking for myself, I plan on fighting in a few San Shou matches later this year. I think a lot of kung fu schools are just plain weak. A lot of the things you have listed are used as cop outs.
The old "Yeah, we don't spar our techniques are too deadly."

[CanadianBadAss]

I would go into a mma or nhb competition, but I don't think they have any of those in Vancouver; and if they did, I would probably be to young any way... So instead I'll have to settle for san shao, for now anyway.

[jon]

This seems to come up a lot, im of the 'i dont like ringfighting camp'. I have many reasons for this not least of which ive done some ring fighting and found it to be the least combat driven of all the fighting ive ever done.
I also grew up in a ****e area where everyone knew how to streetfight to the point of people practising for hours a day on there own methods. I trained and exchanged blows with many of them and learnt to fight amongst guys who really did fight. I have always had an interest in fighting for some odd reason.
That said the reason i moved into traditional kung fu was actualy becouse i started to open my eyes beyond simply sport and trading blows.
I cant justify kung fu's use in the ring so i wont really try ill just state some of the many reasons the real deal is not used.

"If you can't punch me in the head, you sure as hell can't eye strike or throat strike me or hit me in a specific pressure point."

Merry no offence but i think you have a bit missed the point of this argument. In traditional arts at high level every strike is aimed at a lethal target so it becomes like reflex.
Saying that if you cant hit me you cant hurt me is one thing, but if they DO hit you then it will be somewhere you really dont want to experience. That and the second and third strikes are also going to be at similar targets. Try and imagine defending against someone launching a total barage of nerve,eye and joint strikes.
Ive said all along and will continue to say ring sports are designed for entertainment...
There is not much entertainment in two people trying to actively KILL each other.
"We train to have an edge against those untrained folks out there. The Ring isn't real life. We train for things we might see in real life."
Whoever said that had no idea about how there art was supposed to work. Proper kf systems are EXCERLENT for fighting against other arts. The point about real life training fair enough. We always train with the idea that our opponent may either be armed, have friends or be a skilled fighter.
The main thing here is... Good kung fu is brilliant in actual fights provided you understand it and have been taught properly. It's honestly is next to useless inside a ring or sport fighting enviroment. Exception go's to San Shou but even that has been adapted into a sport as well.
MMA and TCMA both have the same purpose its just sometimes they differ in method.
Many paths lead to the same peak.

Ive said this before and ill happily say it again...
In most real encounters the attacker is only going to pick a fight they are sure they will win. He is proberly a lot bigger than you are surrounded by his friends carrying a weapon or more than likely all of the above. Good kf systems are actualy designed to be able to give you a shot at getting out alive. This is when all those dirty tactics as you call them suddenly become a matter of do or die. In this situation if i can punch to the face i would rather be spearing to the eyes. What happens in a ring art where all the training is designed around not seriously hurting your opponent???

[Merryprankster]

Easy Paul :)

I'm quite familiar with San Shou, and, in fact, spent a good deal of time looking for a gym that taught that that fit my schedule lately.

Why don't MMAists fight San Shou? I dunno, why don't San Shou guys fight MMA? Works both ways.

Shonie Carter, a not too bad MMA guy recently got quite beat in a San Shou bout by Cung Le, who is a badass.

In fact, I think you'll find that most MMA types highly respect San Shou and wish it would get bigger!

However, I have to address this point: The guy at the ATM trying to rob me probably isn't going to know BJJ.

Nope... but what if he DOES?! Or what if he's a wrestler or judoka or sambist or...

in other words, what if he's trained?

Jon, good points, of course.

Here're my counter arguments:

How often do you try to actively, and at full power:

eye spear
throat strike
joint strike,
etc.

I would think that if you did this alot, then people would run out of sparring partners really quickly!!! Related argument--if you DON'T practice them full speed, how do you know you can actually pull it off?

"Try and imagine defending against someone launching a total barage of nerve,eye, and joint strikes."

Try and imagine somebody defending against a barrage of knees and elbows to the head, and a swarm of punches designed to knock you out. I mean, I REALLY don't want to get kneed in the face. A barrage is a barrage, plain and simple. Are you suggesting that the strike delivered by a kung fu practitioner is so potent that if one gets through and lands, then the fight is effectively over?

"Dirty tricks," may be a matter of life and death. I agree. But they are much easier to ADD ON as part of your training, than they are to rely on and miss. I can eye gouge with the best of them. Why? Because I have the ability to control the head as part of my grappling training. It's not a great leap of imagination to eye gouge at this point. I also have the ability to joint lock, choke, or reverse postions, get up and run. I don't want to limit this to groundfighting, because i'm not talking about that. I just use those as examples because I'm more familiar with them

I believe that everything you say is important to self-defense. I also believe that these tactics are best used to supplement sound basic martial skills such as punches, knees, elbows, throws, kicks and some groundwork.

While you bring up some good points, you seem to be falling back on "Kung Fu is too deadly for the ring." That at least is how I interpret your comment about

"ill just state some of the many reasons the real deal is not used."

Is that what you mean when you say that?

And as far as techniques designed not to injure the opponent, having been heel hooked until I tore my MCL, and could not walk, having choked unconcious one of my training partners, having watched my friend knock his opponent out etc, I think it's safe to say that the techniques are designed to seriously injure the opponent.

[reemul]

If you get someone worth a ****.

Majority of KF schools are lame, and I support KF.

But anyway, I would guess why you don't have good KF guys in UFC type bouts has to do with KF history. In general exhibitionism is looked down upon.

UFC is not typical of the MA community, and it is debatable whether it is the best testing grounds. I have spared grapplers before and dominated the encounters. Perhaps they just suck, I don't know. Point is UFC has a narrow scope within the MA community, and it doesn't provide much incentive to participate.

I saw a UFC grappler on the TV show "Blind Date", bragging about how he could beat up 99.9% of society. Don't exactly know what he was basing his figures on, but he came across as a *******. I mean if this is what kind of people the UFC attracts, I can see why people aren't interrested. Needless to say he didn't make a love connection.

[Budokan]

Wow. What a way to start off the new year--with a troll topic we've never seen before on KFO. (Can you hear the sarcasm dripping...?)

[Merryprankster]

Reemul,

Placing your skills on display in a fighting match was frowned upon? Then how did all those masters wind up fighting people of different styles all the time in the Kung Fu verbal histories?

I mean, were talking about arts that were supposedly born in trial by fire here! (I'm not doubting it, just saying that IF the verbal histories are true, then some of these founders were scrappers :)

Also, I guarentee that there is SOMEBODY out there who has "good" Kung Fu who would fight in MMA competitions. This isn't China and there are probably some guys out there without that mindset that are good at what they do.

Secondly, I am NOT talking about ONLY GRAPPLERS here!!!! MMA has a groundfighting component, true, but that's not really what I am getting at. I use the grappling examples because it is what I am most familiar with.

[Merryprankster]

Hey Budokan,

How nice of you to be so freakin' pleasant.

Unlike some of the trolls, I'm trying to get some thoughts on this and feel it out, and discuss it in an intelligent way. Sorry if that bugs you, but there has to be a REASON, or set of identifiable reasons for this current situation.

It may simply come down to "because when you train for something, you get good at it..." ie, I wouldn't do Wrestling and expect to do well at a kickboxing tournament.

But it'd be nice to try and elucidate those answers in an intelligent way, instead of getting labeled a troll by somebody who happens not to like the topic.

Care to contribute anything this morning or are you just going to lambaste me?

I use this board as a way to roll things around and see what comes out. Sorry if that gets your panties in a wad.

[Archangel]

I'm just wondering John, you stated:

"In traditional arts at high level every strike is aimed at a lethal target so it becomes like reflex."

Does that mean you will aim for the throat and eyes in every encounter? Alot of times when you are attacked it isn't life or death. Some guy throws a punch at you after an argument and your going to try to rip his throat out? Some drunk grabs you because you were looking at his girlfriend and your going to blind him for life?

There are different degrees of "reasonable force". If you have one response for every situation you may find yourself in a whole lot of trouble with the law. Imagine being indicted for second degree murder when a you could have as easily just knocked the guy out. Imagine your wages being garnished for the rest of your life because you blinded somebody instead of just an assault charge for breaking his nose.

I am also wondering how you realistically train these techniques without seriously hurting each other.

[Braden]

MP - Happy new year dude. :)

"6. Consequently, the logical [best] place to test yourself [in regards to combat] is legal combat... a ring."

I would disagree with this premise. I'll agree with you that 'hard sparring' variety methods (of which ring-fighting is one) is required to 'pressure test' your abilities. The 'ring' provides an excellent venue for finding a variety of very skilled and determined opponents in this regard; this is it's 'pro.' However, it also has a 'con' - that the situational variables in a ring are severely limited, whereas you can encorporate a wide variety of 'role-playing scenarios' in your 'outside of a professional or amateur ring' 'hard sparring.' This 'con', I think outweighs the 'pro' and dethrones the 'ring' as the 'best' place to test yourself for combat.

Sorry about all the single quotes... it's a bad habit I've gotten into of single-quoting things with questionable meanings in hopes people will use their common sense to understand which meaning of the word I'm using.

Criticisms...

1. Grappler's advantage - This one should be rewritten to say 'some styles of fighting are clearly advantageous in some ring situations whereas they would not necessarily be on the street.' Which is undeniably true. I would be hesitant to generalize martial arts so broadly as 'strikers' and 'grapplers' in this context, allthough it's en vogue. So this no longer becomes a striker vs. grappler debate; but it is still important to realize that the [rephrased] 'complaint' is a fact. For better or for worse.

2. Dirty tricks - A red herring. For the most part I agree with you. But see above, point 1, as it has some implications here, although none that extend beyond what has allready been discussed in it's context.

3. Training to deal with untrained individuals - In the strongest form of this argument (-> We will never face people of skill X, only people of lesser skill Y, so we don't have to be THAT good), it is, as you suggested, nonsense. There is a more rational version of this argument (-> We will never face people with specific skills A&B, which are independant of general fighting ability, thus while we have to maintain the same general level of fighting ability, the need to find counters to A&B is greatly diminished) which holds some merit. How much merit this holds depends on your situation.

As an addenum, remember that there are individuals trained in kungfu that are doing very well in mixed style tournaments (eg. Tim Cartmell), and there are also large organizations of chinese
ringfighters with excellent standards of training (eg. Mike Patterson).

Also remember that all the 'stuff' you attribute to 'traditional styles', in many people's viewpoints (such as mine) doesn't
belong to them at all. Of course I know you know that, but it's still worth pointing out for the sake of the thread.
.............................

Mixed responses to other posters:

Paul - Mixed Martial Artists DO compete in sanshou; and do quite well.

Jon said - "In traditional arts at high level every strike is aimed at a lethal target so it becomes like reflex." - Jon, this is another red herring. Every 'high level' practitioner I have met (even being very liberal with the term) has been able to control where they struck and how hard. I hope you aim for this in your own practice as well, lest you some day crush the trachea of an old woman who bumps into you in the supermarket.

[Merryprankster]

Braden:

Perhaps it would be better to say "some RANGES of combat are advantageous in the ring and disadvantageous in the street," rather than some styles. TECHNICALLY speaking I could use my wrestling skills to stay on my feet rather than take the fight to the ground. Does that make sense?

As far as the ring being the best place to test yourself, I think we're working from slightly different definitions (Ah, the BANE of internet conversations!)

When I say the ring is the best place to test yourself, given the cons of the street, I mean that it is the best way we've got to pit your personal combat skills against another opponent outside of training. I tend to separate training and "contests," if you will, in my mind, and that bias in my thinking manifested itself that way.

I also think that the ring provides another pro in that it removes "scenarios." If you truly wish to measure your "combat skill," so to speak, best to do one on one. In multiple opponent scenarios, the focus is on escaping... making enough room to leave. If you happen to take somebody out on the way to making that space, well and good, but if you can make an opening large enough to sprint through and leave, then you have "won."

In this, the goal of self-defense is different than sport. In self-defense, I have to be good enough to leave. That may require the personal combat skill to beat the opponent, it may not, it may even require that you have MORE martial skill than just beating the opponent... maybe you are in an unusual situation where winning means you have to beat 3 people at a time! But if you can leave, generally, it is "winning," and, honestly, that requires less straight personal combat ability and more awareness...a skinny dude with no training who breaks a bottle on the bar and sticks it in his very large opponents face then throws chairs out of his way and runs like heck has just executed pretty good self defense by awareness, even if his personal combat is lacking.

In sport, though I HAVE to be good enough to beat my opponent to "win." I believe that ring strategy is not the same as awareness... you cannot introduce unexpected variables beyond yourself... just what you bring to the ring.

So I certainly believe self-defense and sport are seperate, but I still believe that the measure of a persons' all-around personal combat skill is success in the ring, against what is hopefully a decently trained, game opponent.

Success in sport does not indicate success in self-defense. Cung Le is one dangerous man, but he fails in self defense if he ****es off a guy with a gun who shoots him.

However, Cung Le's personal combat abilities are not in question, regardless of his self-defense acumen. And that is what I seek to measure with ringfighting--personal combat ability.

Dirty tricks are sort of a red herring, but I think, as you pointed out, it plays both ways :)

Certainly there are some Kung Fu guys out there with some MMA ring success. I don't doubt that some exist. But, speaking in generalities, there doesn't seem to be much of it. The title of the thread was perhaps too harsh, but I didn't mean NO good Kung Fu of course... just that there doesn't seem to be much. And I'm hoping that perhaps, with this thread, we can get some consensus on why.

Unless of course, Ralek hijacks the thread and Budokan yells at him all day. ;)

As for the San Shou guys... PROPS!!! :)

Happy New Year to you too Braden!

[Steven T. Richards]

I don't personally believe that there is a single definitive environ for testing ourselves or our martial arts. In the UK for some years now, a number of former bouncers/bodyguards have held great influence in the martial arts media by drawing on the fact that so few martial artists have had much if anything in the way of actual in yer face fighting experience - and consequently, have been able to promote in a very generalised way, their own perspective on things - in particular by manipulating inexperienced peoples fears about the real deal - should it ever arise for them.

I got my real experience in a 'front-line' occupation - the Police - over a 13 years streets period, and my experience was far broader than the bouncers - but more importantly it was 'different'. There were completely different sets of considerations between say massive urban riots or terrorist threats on the one hand and dealing with drunken nightclub customers on the other. Of course bouncers deal with other things to, and so do the Police.

That said, I wouldn't generalise my experience or even the conclusions from it.

What I do believe however, is that some form of reality testing is important. Competition is one such example - there are many others.

It's what we do with that experience - how we asess it, criticise - relativise it, that is important.

Most traditional martial arts training is a symbolic substitution for something that in 'reality' may never happen. So inductive are the rituals and training protocols, that many of us mistake the 'virtual' world of abstract training for the real thing - in one of its many guises.

In the absence of true mortal combat - and I don't mean the puffed up ritualised displays that often pass for 'kong-Sau' in TCMA, most of us will never be fully tested.

[Merryprankster]

In the absence of true mortal combat - and I don't mean the puffed up ritualised displays that often pass for 'kong-Sau' in TCMA, most of us will never be fully tested.

Thank heavens for that!!!

Steven T.

Any thoughts on why there hasn't been more success for Kung Fu in MMA events?

[Braden]

"Perhaps it would be better to say 'some RANGES of combat are advantageous in the ring and disadvantageous in the street'..."

Well, yeah. I didn't mean to say styles. I just meant... well, there's no word for it. But one _individual's_ approach may be better suited for the ring, but not the street - and again this varies by what ring we're talking about.

"When I say the ring...I ... to pit your personal combat skills against another opponent outside of training..."

Ok, I'd definitely agree to that then. I thought you meant specifically an amateur or professional ring fighting circuit. Specific to the original topic, all sorts of kungfu guys 'could' be doing exactly this, but we'd still never hear about it if they don't bring it into official contests.

"I also think that the ring provides another pro in that it removes 'scenarios.' If you truly wish to measure your 'combat skill'..."

I see what you're saying. You're trying to isolate 'self-defense' on one hand with 'combat skills' on the other, as mentioned in your original post. And you're saying here that removing 'scenarios' better hones in on 'combat skill.' I think that's reasonable enough, although I disagree. I think there's alot of pure 'combat skill' testing/training that requires a 'scenario' of some kind - not necessarily multiple-opponent. I'm under the impression that BJJ schools work alot with scenarios - for example, where a bout will start with one person allready in inferior position, to isolate certain skills. This specific example is a little contrived to isolate 'combat skills', but it's more that I hand in mind by 'scenarios' than the multiple opponent stuff. A further example I can offer is that in baguazhang training, we work out alot from being attacked from behind, directly from the sides, etc. I think this is a valuable and realistic tool which you will never see inside a 'ring' as such (although if we're extending the definition of 'ring' to include nonformal but competitive engagements outside training, there's no reason why you COULDN'T play scenarios in them). This speaks to my main 'beef' with overemphasizing 'ring' training if your goal is self-defense - and that is that the variables, in regards to how the confrontation evolves, is not just 'potentially different' in the ring vs the street, but is 'often the inverse' thereof. Even speaking just of 'combat skills', for example, the way 'range' evolves in the ring, has in my experience, been quite different to the way 'range' evolves in a street encounter. Being ideally suited to one will require a different set of skills to being ideally suited to the other. This is a difficult task for anyone, and I'm not saying 'MMAists' are less inclined towards this than 'TMAists' (actually I'm uncomfortable with the terms and don't want to imply any judgements about such a division). I'm only saying I think it is an important concern to keep in mind - and is one of the reasons why I may see the 'ring' in a different light than you do.

As for why there's not 'more' kungfu guys hitting the popular circuits, I'm not sure. It's undeniably true that... uh... that that is true. It's also undeniably true that proportionally fewer people who train what they would call kungfu approach adequacy for self-defense or competitive fighting. Maybe that is all there is to it. Maybe it's because chinese kungfu culture has always emphasized 'amateurism' (in the literal sense of the term) - tradtionally, most kungfu teachers and what we percieve of as kungfu 'professional' fighters have in fact all been amateurs and held down unrelated 'day jobs.' Maybe it is because skill in groundfighting has become a staple of the competitions you have in mind, and for some reason kungfu proponents have been slower to adopt that kind of training than other martial artists. There's countless possible reasons. Personally, I don't much care, as it has no effect upon my training. Although the stuff we've discussed above is certainly interesting and pertinent.

[Braden]

Hrmm... well... all that said, I can hypothesize from my situation...

If I was interested in formal fighting competition (which I'm not), I would need an entry-level venue (got to start somewhere), which is neither a karate/muay thai/boxing/kickboxing/etc venue (whose rules would completely invalidate everything I do), nor a wrestling/grappling venue (ditto); and I would need one that allows bare hands and elbow strikes, including to the head.

There's no such venue available to me.

So this could be contributing to it.

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

I too am uncomfortable with the ideas of TMA and MMA, but it's sort of what we've got going. So long as we both understand each other, I suppose it's ok. :)

I see what you mean... to you, the ring might be like an isolation drill, and not combat per se. And I do mean a ringfight, non training type... where the other guy wants to knock your block off (within the rules). I don't suppose it HAS to be on some sort of tournament circuit, but that IS more what I had in my mind, a sort of formal engagement with a referree and possibly some judges and an audience and ring card girls :)

And I agree that training for a ring fight does not translate to training for self defense. Adjustments have to be made for that, absolutely.

Now, I still believe that PRIDE and UFC level events are the best measure of combat skill widely available, without legal and death problems. We disagree there, primarily because of a difference in definition of 'combat,' but I think we can both live with that.

Especially since the real question is "Why is Kung Fu not particularly well represented in MMA type events?" Whether by quality or quantity, we both seem to agree that Kung Fu hasn't fared too well. I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for why this is the case. I know there are a lot of "why's" but I'm sure there is some sort of basic level, a small list of things that could be close enough to true to be considered right. I'm kind of hoping that can be uncovered!

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

Could the use of fight gloves be considered bare hand enough for you? Open fingered, padding only on the back of the hand to the first knuckle, 4-6 oz.

There are venues that allow elbows. Although it may be hard to find amateur rules with elbows... hmmmm...

Ok... in what way would the normal rules of MMA events severely inhibit your style of fighting. Not trying to challenge, trying to gain an education. Lack of Baguazhang knowledge makes me not understand what you are talking about :)

[Merryprankster]

Goodness! I've never even heard of it. I'm only vaguely familiar with Silat in that it means so many different things to so many different people.

I know what you mean. I'm a blue and I wouldn't train with me if I was all I had to go to :) I think purples can do a fine job, however.

Is this something like Pencak Silat? I am SO lost here... ah, wait. I seem to recall some forms of silat being grappling oriented, and I THINK they frequently assume the opponent is armed. Maybe that's it. I just don't know.

[Braden]

The gloves I've worn wouldn't cut it. We spend alot of time on some specifics of striking surfaces with the open palm which require both unrestricted articulation of the fingers and having the entire surface of the palm exposed, and backpalm if we're backpalming. Don't want to get any more specific than that, since it's more something you have to touch (or, more specifically, be smacked with) if you haven't felt it before. But.. you know.. believe me or don't. ;) Maybe someone with skill could pull it off from gloves, but I suck enough as is; I certainly couldn't. Oh, to clarify - the only closed fist strike I have learnt from my teacher is an uppercut. Backfists and hammerfists are common from some other teachers. It's almost all palm work with the hands though.

For elbows: Yeah, the problem is finding an entry level amateur venue that allows them. I'm sure they're out there, but they're not accessible to me personally. I guess if the hypothetical me had money to burn, he could travel... but that's just another constraint keeping most people like the hypothetical me from competeing.

What other rules related stuff are you unsure about?

Oh, BTW, even though this is all a hypothetical discussion - These are just concerns coming from my training, which is pretty peculiar and rare by kungfu standards. Whether or not others have their own concerns along these lines, I can't say. I maintain that things like 'I only train to hit the throat and tear out eyeballs' aren't valid arguments, besides which there are much better vital targets which are legal in most MMA venues.

[jon]

Merryprankster
You make many very good points, testing of the art is always a difficault concern for a fighter. I just wanted to clarify a couple of points i made as they seem to have been taken a little poorly, which im sure is my fault for the way ive worded them.

Merryprankster posted...
"How often do you try to actively, and at full power:
eye spear
throat strike
joint strike,
etc."

This is a very good question and IS of concern in good kung fu but the answer is actualy quite simple... Its easyer to hit these targets if your TRAINED that way. It obviously takes practice but just as a Thai Boxer can use elbows to cut the skin on the eyebrows causing blood to blind there opponent so to can a Kung Fu practioner hit nerve points during combat. Its simply accuracy practice. Certainly takes time but ive seen the results first hand.
The main reason why NHB people dont belive in these techniques is simply becouse there illegal in most competions hence not trained. You cant really think its so much harder to punch the throat or joints than it is to hit the face or stomach?

This leads though to the next point which several people have picked on.
I wrote this in my first post.
"In traditional arts at high level every strike is aimed at a lethal target so it becomes like reflex."
I can understand why some people have picked on this point but i will just say a few extra things to clarify it.
For a start obviously you CAN tone down the lethality of what your doing but you must remember the arts are designed for breaking not for playing. This is really what i was trying to say Kung Fu conditions the reflex for a very different goal to sport martial arts. I realise that a good practioner should be able to adapt his technique but really why should he?
This is where in sport martial art competion it starts to go in the ring fighters favor, as the ringfighter is fighting in his element where as the traditional fighter is forced to think twise about every movement.
I was not trying to state that TCMA is to dangerous for the ring so much as not designed for it. This means that TCMA has a hard time adapting to the requirements of sport fighting.
Again i have no problem with NHB, i just dont see why I as a TCMA practioner have to constantly justify it to them.

[Merryprankster]

Eh, no need. I think you pretty much answered the question.

That does create a bit of a problem I suppose.

So we can knock at least one up to the rules really ARE too limiting :)

Yeah, if you wanted to travel... to Brazil, you could probably find something.

**** the athletic commissions! This wasn't a problem a few years back! :)

[Merryprankster]

Actually Jon, I completely disagree with you. The eyes, pressure points and the throat are all small targets, as are the elbows. MUCH smaller targets than the face or stomach. I really believe it is that much harder to hit the throat of a person with telling effect than their head or stomach. The target area is MUCH smaller.

Comparing thai elbows to specific pressure point attacks is VERY different. I draw the elbow across the face, aiming for the eyebrows, but if I miss, no worries, I'll just open up a cut somewhere else. I'm just trying to HIT you in the face with the elbow, eyebrow gash is a bonus. Trying to hit a small pressure point on a moving opponent is very different... fly with chopsticks kind of thing.

I can train to attack eyes and throat or joints all day, but if I haven't used it on a fully resisting opponent, how do I know it works? How can I be sure that this is the fight ender or as powerful a strike as I think it is?

The reason we don't believe these techniques is relatively simple. The first UFC's allowed pressure points... they didn't seem to do the trick. Secondly, most of us have been whacked around grappling and punching quite a bit. I imagine that at some point we would have been hit or poked in these pressure points and something would have happenned.

I haven't. Until I see it work on a fully resisting opponent, I won't believe it. Show me, and I will!

But that still doesn't answer the question: Why the lack of Kung Fu in NHB? And you are still falling back on the "too dangerous for the ring." Do you really believe that?

[Merryprankster]

I'll be off for a bit... sleeping after 14 hours of duty!

Cheers!

[jon]

Urg this is already going the way i really didnt want it to...

Do you not think i can hit things other than preasure points? Do you not think if i strike your throat even at half force and miss my precise target it wouldnt hurt? Do you not consider that maybe presure points and soft area striking are bonus to combat and not the be all and end all of it. Do you really think its so difficault to train to hit things other than competion targets? Also just as you have stated with your rebut of my Thai elbow comparison what makes you think if i punch a point on your body and miss its not going to hurt anyway? The fly with chopsticks reference is out of place as well, presure points are on the body they dont float around in space.
As i tried so hard to state its a reflex for us to use movements which are not legal in most competions, why should we change our art simply to make it work in a ring?
Christ ive personaly elbowed someone in there fist as they were throwing a punch. By your rational thats basicaly impossible becouse its not regualy trained at your club? Let alone the whole accuracy small target issue.
This comment i find very odd...

"The first UFC's allowed pressure points... they didn't seem to do the trick"

So they then went on to ban them for what reason? If they 'didnt do the trick' why not just let everyone use those non working techniques? You seem to openly disparage the existance of presure points. Maybe you should study some science and look up accupresure.

"I can train to attack eyes and throat or joints all day, but if I haven't used it on a fully resisting opponent, how do I know it works? How can I be sure that this is the fight ender or as powerful a strike as I think it is? "

Stick your finger into your eye socket [not hard obviously] now try striking your voicebox with something hard and small like a knuckle, pretty painfull aint it? Its not hard to realise either of these two points can work. Just becouse you personaly havent used it does not mean it has no use.
Ive used accuracy quite effectivly in fighting im not sure why you seem to think its so difficault. Maybe becouse your used to fighting in sparring gloves?

"But that still doesn't answer the question: Why the lack of Kung Fu in NHB? And you are still falling back on the "too dangerous for the ring." Do you really believe that?"

Fine you want to bully a strait answer ill give you my own personal reason why i wouldnt fight there, i cant speak for every other kung fu fighter.
The day you get me in a cage fighting someone else for no reason other than my personal fame and fortune.... That will be the day i have lost my morals as a martial artist and become simply a fighter. I dont fight unless i HAVE to, its that simple.
As for the "too dangerous for the ring." i tried very hard to distance myself from that. My point which ive tried now several times to make is that our reflexs are geared differently meaning that we are at a disadvantage. We can adjust its just that this means we have to either retrain ourselfs or think twise about every movement. Why should we???
Im sorry to get angry and post in this way im actualy not trying to start a war. Im just REALLY tired of people trying to pick holes in things just becouse they fail to understand them.

[Polaris]

Well I wan to fight professionally in the future, and
Bak Mei says he wants to too. I do cross train in BJJ
though and will continue to do so.

[Steven T. Richards]

Merry 'P',

I think why a lot of TCMA don't feature in NHB/MMA events is probably a product of the transition of oriental culture into a mainly western cultural framework over thelast 30 years or so.

Just to explain, as its been hours without sleep - so please make allowances for the crap reasoning - it's in part a western attitude to the culture of TCMA. The esoteric is very seductive, and for many it is that filter that draws them into TCMA in the first place.
That is the origin of many of the 'excuses' or rationalisations for either not competing or worse, of failing.

It just isn't the the kind of thing that's 'done' in TCMA. It follows then that the 'our skills are too deadly' etc etc get trawled out.

Of coure full contact Kung-Fu events have been going on as sports in HK for many decades, but, it is mainly westerners who buy into the esoteric excuses for not pressure testing 'Kung-Fu'.

It's much easier to have vicarious, by-proxy or otherwise fantasy 'fights' and then take the moral highground by quoting mysticism and estoteric practices.

To compete in a rings environ, TCMA would have to adapt - and to change. And there is great resistance to that: San-Dar and San-Shou competitions aside - as I'm talking mainly from a 'traditional' perspective.

If for example, 'Pankration' was taught and trained in a high classical Greek cultural way, you'd have a completely different art - something approaching TCMA complete with 'Chi' in the form of Pneuma, single-blow challenges in the form of the 'Klimax' challenge, Gods (Hermes, Heracles etc) traditional medicine and 'philosophy'.

Horses for courses...

Steve.

[Archangel]

Jon,

I know this wasn't directed at me, but as Merry Prankster is asleep right now; I'll give it a go. (Hope you don't mind Prankster, i'll be civil I promise) ;)

"The fly with chopsticks reference is out of place as well, presure points are on the body they dont float around in space. "

hehe, the thing is it's the body that floats around and moves in space. Have you ever tried to hit a trained boxer while he was bobbing, weaving and striking. It's very diificult to hit him period, nevetheless a small point on his body. I think the chopsticks analogy stands.

"As i tried so hard to state its a reflex for us to use movements which are not legal in most competions, why should we change our art simply to make it work in a ring?"

Oh please, many arts like Muay Thai, Kyokoshin Kai, Seido Kai, Jui jitsu, JKD etc have had no problem doing this. In the process they have improved their arts by adding contests where they can test themselves against 100% resisting oponents. It's is extremely difficult for a McDojo to proliferate in these arts because of the competition aspect. San Shou guys are trying to do this for Kung Fu.

"Christ ive personaly elbowed someone in there fist as they were throwing a punch. By your rational thats basicaly impossible becouse its not regualy trained at your club? Let alone the whole accuracy small target issue.
This comment i find very odd..."

Of course nothing is imposible, but as a fighter I would use and train the techniques that had a higher percentage of actually working.

"So they then went on to ban them for what reason? If they 'didnt do the trick' why not just let everyone use those non working techniques? You seem to openly disparage the existance of presure points. Maybe you should study some science and look up accupresure. "

The truth is the Nevada state athletic commission didn't like them; for whatever reasons I do not know. And to get sanctioned for the big money events the UFC had to abide by there ruling. Really now, Pride in Japan still allows them, all of the events in Brazil allows them and I have yet to see a pressure point strike disable a fighter.



End of Pt. 1

[Archangel]

"Stick your finger into your eye socket [not hard obviously] now try striking your voicebox with something hard and small like a knuckle, pretty painfull aint it? Its not hard to realise either of these two points can work. Just becouse you personaly havent used it does not mean it has no use.
Ive used accuracy quite effectivly in fighting im not sure why you seem to think its so difficault. Maybe becouse your used to fighting in sparring gloves? "

I really don't doubt that these techniques do work and can happen. I have to ask you though, have you tried it against a guy who standing outside of your range and blasting you with leg kicks. Have you tried it against a fighter that puts so much pressure on you that you are either knocked out or covering to save your life. Have you ever tried it against a guy who takes you to the ground and starts reighing blows on you from the top. You see a MMA arts fighter has; he has dealt with all of the above where as most traditionals have not. Its part of their training and what I believe gives them the greatest advantage.

I still have to ask though, are these techniques all you have. There are no other targets on the body where you can aim? That really sounds extremely limiting to me.

"The day you get me in a cage fighting someone else for no reason other than my personal fame and fortune.... That will be the day i have lost my morals as a martial artist and become simply a fighter. I dont fight unless i HAVE to, its that simple. "

Oh come on now, why the Holier than though speech. Fighting in the ring for most is a profesional endeavor. Haven't you ever wanted to make a living off something you love doing? Why do kung Fu fighters have more morals than Muay Thai, Kyokoshin, BJJ, Boxers, Wrestlers, Seido Kai figters etc. Your trying to tell me that there hasn't been a few kung Fu fighters that have wanted to compete? I have seen them - Jason Delucia, Scott Baker, Asbel Cansio, David Levicki, Felix Lee Mitchell; they've all given MMA a run. Are they now heathens, shunned and looked down upon in the Kung Fu community. I bet if these fighters have won, it'd be a different story.

"My point which ive tried now several times to make is that our reflexs are geared differently meaning that we are at a disadvantage. We can adjust its just that this means we have to either retrain ourselfs or think twise about every movement. Why should we??? "

Hold on, I saw something on the web a little while ago about Kung Fu's targets. I'll looked it up later and get back to you on this one.

End Pt 2

[Braden]

Jon -

"You cant really think its so much harder to punch the throat or joints than it is to hit the face or stomach?"

I would agree with MP - it's MUCH harder to hit the throat, for example, than the face. For obvious reasons, there are very strong instinctual movements in humans to protect the throat. A fighter with any training at all will also be tucking his chin, etc. The throat is also 'deeper' than the face, and will require a much more committed attack.

"Do you not think if i strike your throat even at half force and miss my precise target it wouldnt hurt?"

The negatives confuse me. ;) But honestly, the throat is way more durable than you give it credit. We had a long thread about this a while ago. If you're just hitting the throat with normal striking mechanics, you're not going to get the results you want even with a clean hit. You have to learn some very specific mechanics for the peculiar anatomy of the throat. And yes, if you bungle the attack, it's not going to have much effect.

"As i tried so hard to state its a reflex for us to use movements which are not legal in most competions..."

I believe we covered this point allready, and you agreed you could exercise full control over this, as collaborated by your previous statement: "Do you not think i can hit things other than preasure points?"

"Stick your finger into your eye socket [not hard obviously] now try striking your voicebox with something hard and small like a knuckle, pretty painfull aint it?"

Actually, no it's not. The eye socket thing isn't even slightly painfull, though it is unnerving. The throat thing is similarly unnerving - remember, everything there is cartilege, it has incredible abilities to bend and bounce back.

...

MerryP -

There's some great 'vital attacks' that are 'idiot-proof' like your elbow (ie. no matter how bad you screw them up, they're still going to do something). Personally, I'm not going to stand around punching people in the face, chest, or stomach. But I have much better options at my disposal than groin, throat, and eyes which are all highly commited, NOT idiot proof, low percentage attacks which I believe have unreliable results even when they work perfectly; not to mention most techniques to these spots keep you planted and in front of your opponent, which is the last place I want to be.

[Royal Dragon]

Is it possible that Kung Fu guys just compete in Kou Shou and San Shou competitons because that is what's avaliable first? I mean, when someone competes, they go to thier Sifu and asks where they should go, and almost alwways they get the local Kou Shou and San Show circut, right? Once in ther, there is a never ending level of challenge, and by the time they make it to the top the're getting tired of full contact fighting and stop competeing.


Just the same, when the averaged MMA goes to thier teacher and wants to compete, they get put into the local circut favored by thier teacher as well. MMA guys just happen to have different circutes, and probually would'nt know who to contact about fighting in Kou Shou and San shou anyway, and if they did it would be a bit of research, learning new rules and adapting thier "Fight game" to the new system. It's much, much, MUCH easier to just continue fighting in the circut common to your martial circles.

The other thing, how come K1 guys are rarely if ever seen in San Shou, kou Shou and MMa cometiton and Vica versa?

Probually for the same reason as previously stated.


As for kung Fu guys not being in the UFC are'nt there a buch of stupid rules in that circut?

I heard you can't hit a guy once he's on the ground unless YOUR on the ground too, something totally against any TCMA system I have ever seen What about knee strikes (Taking a guys knees out)? What about jiont (Wrist elbow shoulder) locks and throws followed by you standing and kicking the crap out of the fighter wile down? What about doing that in low postures. I don't think you can do any of that stuff in UFC.

Also, does the UFC allow you to use sticky body skills to crowd and jam your opponent wile you snake a throat grab around his gaurd and simutaniously trip him? What about elbowing guys in the base of the head wile they shoot in on you? are you allowed to do that?

If I can't hit him wile he's down, unless "I'M" down too, does'nt that force me to abandon my game, and fight my weakness against his strength? "Now", i'm NOT doing Kung Fu anymore anyway, I'm doing MMA stuff, so why bother even signing up to fight in that circut?

The closest contsts "I" have seen for Kung Fu guys to actually do what they are trained to do is Kou Shou and San Shou, and even that has it's restrictions.

So, since all circutes are restriced, If it was me, I'd fight in the circut that allows me to used as much of my traing as possible, NOT stop and fight in an arena I'm not prepared for, or one that forces me to literally quit my game and start someone elses to be good. Heck' I'm not Kung Fu anymore then, am I? So even "IF" I got good at it I would never be recogniosed as a sucsessful Kung Fu fighter anyway, I'd be seen as a sucsessful MMA.


THAT is why you don't see Kung Fu in theses types of tournaments. It's also why you DON'T see MMa's in our tournaments. Different circuts, different training. No one is going to go out there and pit their weaknesses against another's strength, it violates basic common sense combat law.

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

[Apprentice]

I jes read all of this...(in record timing :D )

To Archangel:

"That will be the day i have lost my morals as a martial artist and become simply a fighter. I dont fight unless i HAVE to, its that simple. " -Jon

"Why do kung Fu fighters have more morals than Muay Thai, Kyokoshin, BJJ, Boxers, Wrestlers, Seido Kai figters etc. Your trying to tell me that there hasn't been a few kung Fu fighters that have wanted to compete? I have seen them - Jason Delucia, Scott Baker, Asbel Cansio, David Levicki, Felix Lee Mitchell; they've all given MMA a run. Are they now heathens, shunned and looked down upon in the Kung Fu community. I bet if these fighters have won, it'd be a different story."-Braden


What is Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling?(I dont know about the rest)

They are sports


TCMA, Traditional Chinese "Martial Arts", what are they?

Martial Arts, not just Combat, not just self defense, but a way of life(not to all, but to some, such as jon)...


Would a kung fu person be looked down on?

Hate to answer a question with a question, but would a person of Catholic religion be looked down on if they sinned, but didnt' go to church often? Probably not...but how about a Priest? Someone who goes to church often, and has made it a part of their life...would they be looked down on if they sinned? Probably...

Think of Martial Arts as a religion, even though it is not, it is similar in a way, they are taught a "Way of life"...if someone wants to make it a way of their life, then good, they most likely would not "Fight for fame and fourtune"...but someone such as the people u named, they have not made it a part of their life, atleast not the "Fight only when needed" aspect...but they are taught that...jon is a person and their are many others who DO follow this rule...Think about it, if Everyone did follow this rule, it'd be a much more peaceful place wouldn't you say?

However, i do agree that participating in a ring tournament WOULD boost your combat skills, but thats not everyones "Cup of Tea"...I'm going to study Hung Gar Kung Fu, and maybe aiikido, and i want to participate in some sort of UFC type thing, im also going to practice some kind of wrestling n ground fighting tho too, look for me in several years, i may win the middle weight belt =) maybe light weight


So to answer the original question beleive the reason why "Alot of Kung Fu Guys" dont fight in UFC, is because "Alot of Kung Fu Guys" follow the morals their teachers teach them...

In boxing, or muay thai, what are you taught? How to fight in the ring, what do you do? Fight in the ring...In Martial Arts, what are you taught? Self defense, AND Morals to live by if you choose to, they ARE good morals, so i dont see a problem with someone following them...

If your going to retaliate with something like "The morals are good by Whose standards?"....

You tell me, would you rather have an ENTIRE world of boxers, muay thai'ists, constantly fighting in the ring and on the street for reputation?(not saying all of them fight, but more would) Or an ENTIRE world of Martial artists, that DO follow the morals of dont fight unless needed...i'd personally move to planet CMA :D


Hope i didn't offend anyone in these posts, n helped u guys understand...later guys, Happy New Year, ''02

[Apprentice]

damm (heh, no astrix *)

I messed up, BRADEN didn't say my second quote, ARCHANGEL did

[Apprentice]

i got so hung up on what i started talking about, i forgot i was going to add basically what royal dragon said as well for the kung fu guys who DO fight

[Archangel]

"Is it possible that Kung Fu guys just compete in Kou Shou and San Shou competitons because that is what's avaliable first? I mean, when someone competes, they go to thier Sifu and asks where they should go, and almost always they get the local Kou Shou and San Show circut, right"

Very well could be. However, how many Kung Fu guys do compete in Kuoshu or Sanda. By my impressions so far it seems that alot of people in the CMA community look down at these fighters claiming "it's not really kung Fu". I have done my research on these events and I really think that they should be available to every Kung Fu kwoon. Unfortunately they are not.

"Just the same, when the averaged MMA goes to thier teacher and wants to compete, they get put into the local circut favored by thier teacher as well."

Well, not really. Most MMA guys come from another art; they usually start out as wrestlers, BJJ fighters, Thai boxers etc. . Then they decide to go into MMA. So Sanda and Kuoshu fighters have the same opertunity as any fighter that wants to compete. MMA is not "exclusive".

"the other thing, how come K1 guys are rarely if ever seen in San Shou, kou Shou and MMa cometiton and Vica versa?"

Well here your talking about money. K1 is the richest tournament in Martial Arts outside of boxing. If you are good enough to be in K1 , being a pro you want to stay there. A few fighters have gone to MMA, fighters like Gerard Gordeau, Mo Smith, Satake, Schilt. They haven't gone to Sanda/Kuoshu because it does not pay nearly as well and it is a little obscure outside of the CMA communtiy; I really think fighters should though. Its a great venue. Now to as why no Kung Fu guys in K1, It is the richest tourney so youd expect the best standup fighters to be there. This might not sit well but it seems that the Kung Fu pro fighters have not reached this level yet.

"As for kung Fu guys not being in the UFC are'nt there a buch of stupid rules in that circut?"

Well there are alot more rules in the UFC now, the Nevada state athletic commision requires these rules to be sanctioned. However, none of these restrictions are allowed in Sanda or Kuoshu either. MMA even with all its rules, still has less restrictions than any other tournament save Brazil and Pride.

All of the scenarios you listed are legal in Pride Japan and the Brazil events.

"So, since all circutes are restriced, If it was me, I'd fight in the circut that allows me to used as much of my traing as possible"

That is still a MMA circuit. i really don't understand this argument since Sanda/Kuoshu are more limiting than MMA; and every scenario you listed is illegal in Sanda/Kuoshu as well.

"THAT is why you don't see Kung Fu in theses types of tournaments. It's also why you DON'T see MMa's in our tournaments. Different circuts, different training. No one is going to go out there and pit their weaknesses against another's strength, it violates basic common sense combat law."

I disagree, if you put a Sanda/kuoshu fighter into MMA they are not limited at all. Everything they can do in one of their tournament they are allowed in MMA. Conversely, a MMA fighter is extremely limited if he fought Sanda, the rules basically take away one of his ranges and sunmissions.

[Archangel]

"What is Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling?(I dont know about the rest)

They are sports"

Except for Boxing, The origins of these arts are derived from warfare, from Martial arts. Go tell a student of Mas Oyama that kyokoshinkai karate isn't a martial art, or maybe the Thai militarty that MT is not a martial art. Modern wrestling was derived from the Greek martial art of Pankration which was used int the Greek and Macedonian armies. Seido Kai, go check out some of the hard school dojos in Japan and tell them its not a Martial art.

The fact is these are all martial arts, with a sporting ( testing/ scientfic ) side to it. All of these are deep with tradition and history, with wrestling being even older than kung fu.

"Think of Martial Arts as a religion, even though it is not, it is similar in a way, they are taught a "Way of life"...if someone wants to make it a way of their life, then good, they most likely would not "Fight for fame and fourtune"...but someone such as the people u named, they have not made it a part of their life, atleast not the "Fight only when needed" aspect...but they are taught that."

Again, "fight only when needed" is a noble gesture indeed; but this is completely different. I cannot see your analogy of SINNING or betraying ones school by deciding to fight in a tournament. Why is it wrong? It's not fighting out of malice or anger, it is a professional endeavor and I cannot see why anyone would feel wronged or hurt if a student wanted to fight in a tournament. Again, it's not fighting out of anger or malice; two proffesional fighters entering a contest of skill, fighting within rules. Does that mean that Kuoshu/Sanda fighters are sinners as well.

Another example: Mas Oyama, the father of Kyokoshin Kai Karate dedictated his entire life to Karate. This is not an exageration either; He lived Karate, it became a part of him and he is now one of the most respected martial artists who ever lived. His students with his blessing compete regularly . In fact they went into Thailand and fought the best Thai boxers in the world. He obviously knew that the only way to improve would be to test yourself against the best. Competing was a tool for him and his fighters, they used it to hone their skills and find weaknesses within their own style. Tell me, do you look down upon him? is he a sinner?

[jon]

Apprentice
Thank you kindly for understading where im comming from its nice to see at least someone else believes in similar morals to myself.

To others
Ive clearly stated several times i can hit many more things than JUST preasure points. The difference is i do know there there... If you think my training started in day one trying to poke people in the eye your wrong. I worked my way up to using preasure points and nerve strikes and many of the nerves are either on the arms or the body. These are actualy quite easy places to strike and even if i miss the point im aiming at it still does good damage. The fly with chopsticks reference i still hold to be way off the mark. A body may sit in space but it aint no fly and sure as hell doesnt move like one.
Watch any police riot and you will get to see the police applying a whole bunch of mostly crappy preasure point techniques on demonstators. If the police can use them under preasure with minimal training what makes you think there so impossible?
As for this whole never being hit in a preasure point when sparring... Are you telling me the whole time you have been fighting no one has ever been nailed in the funny bone? Or taken a blow a bit wrong on the sholder and had to stop while there arm went dead?
Braden this really worried me
"Actually, no it's not. The eye socket thing isn't even slightly painfull, though it is unnerving. The throat thing is similarly unnerving - remember, everything there is cartilege, it has incredible abilities to bend and bounce back"
Your telling me you can stick your finger in your eye and it doesnt hurt! ok i find that a little strange considering mine start to hurt when my eyelash go's in them, let alone when there activly poked.
As for the throat i told you to strike the voice box this is impossible to flex and can be crushed without much effort with a sharp strike. If your really not concerned with getting hit in these areas i propose that you either dont feel pain or are basicaly exagerating your abilty.

This has notably turned into a blatent kung fu bash, there are only a few sticking up for cma as noone else is willing to bother trying to justify something they hold dear to a bunch of people bent on trying to redicule it.
If you dont think think Kung Fu is any good becouse you dont see it on pride i dont care... I dont think pride is anygood becouse i cant see it working on the street vs multiple opponents or weapons.
Its a dumb argument...
As an add on to that...
What makes you think it IS moral for a martial artist to fight in a NHB tournament and deliberatley try to hurt someone in public for nothing other than money?
Kinda wreaks of thug if you ask me.
I really dont like this, i dont go around trying to state how ineffective i think NHB is outside of a controlled enviorment so why are you guys constantly hunting down us cma artists?
Like i say, if you dont like it shut the hell up and enjoy what you do. Dont sit here and tell me about it, ive already made up my mind.

[reemul]

There is no doubt kf masters mixed it up with other styles, learning from other styles was common, however it was done in a training atmoshpere not an exhibition. Now I'm being general because my argument is based on China's social values. Sure ther were some, that fell out side the box. Most old school KF instructors just don't teach martial technique, they delve into the KF mindset.

Now if you're wonderring why KF guys don't do MMA events I can give you my reasons. Generally not interrested, Don't feel the need to go ego trippin, the pay sucks, comfortable in my training practice.

I don't necessarilly think these reasons just apply to KF. As I said it is debateble as to whether MMA are the best testing grounds.

Our school practices Shaolin Warriorship which includes a certain mindset, martial training with and without weapons. We do a lot of weapons training, so how does that fit into MMA events. Now here we start to see a differrence in why people train. I'm all for getting together with other styles to test skills, I'm just not big on fighting for sport or exhibitionism.

[rogue]

The why is obvious, KUNG FU SUX!!! BJJ RULES.


Next question please.

[Merryprankster]

Jon,

You are the only person on this thread getting angry. Don't become so attatched to your argument that when people disagree with your argument they in turn, become disagreeable to you personally!

I don't believe the things you say are true because the wieght of the evidence, in my opinion, doesn't back up your viewpoint. You see it a different way. That's fine. It doesn't affect me one way or the other, personally. We disagree. I feel like you are getting frustrated because we refuse to "see the light." Follow your own advice: there are many paths to the same peak, yes? This is a disagreement over training, not something to get upset over. Martial Arts are a tool to use, whether it be for personal development, martial skill, or a combination of both. Don't let the tool use you.

Bottom line is that several of us arguing the opposing idea understand what you are saying, but happen to disagree with you. For instance, I have been on the receiving end of LOTS of attacks to the throat, whether by blood choke or wind pipe choke. I've dealt with fist chokes where the body weight is completely on the wind pipe and the knuckles are digging into it as deep as they can go. I've had forearms burried across my windpipe with great force, and I've had people EXPLODE into those chokes as though they were trying to force my windpipe into the back of my neck. Oddly enough, they didn't end the fight. Neither did the eye-gouge that I enjoyed during a wrestling match in high school, although I will admit to having lost my depth perception for a day. My personal experience tells me that what you say is possible, but not probable. No worries, it's just different.

I would like to try to return this to the topic: For the record, you still haven't committed to what that MEANS as far as the original question. You maintain that the "real deal," isn't used in ringfighting because the rules are too restrictive. Here is the problem I have with that blanket statement:

If the rules are too restrictive then you are saying one of the following things:

1. Kung Fu, generally speaking, is too dangerous for use in the ring.

2. Kung fu, generally speaking, relies on many techniques found outside the realm of kicks, punches, knees, and elbows to the head, midsection and legs, standing grappling and ground grappling. In fact, they rely on these other techniques SO much that the rules inhibit a Kung Fu fighter to the extent that he would have to DRASTICALLY modify what he does so as to be unrecognizable and incoherent as a fighting method and strategy.

Which one of those two things are you trying to say?

That said, you answered the question: You believe it is a betrayal of what the martial arts stand for and symbolize to jump in a ring and fight to see who's better than who. Fair enough.

[Merryprankster]

Reemul;

Again, another person who doesn't really think that ring fighting "fits," with TCMA. A perfectly fine answer in my mind. There are ramifications, but other threads to cover that some other time :)

Question. You write: I'm all for getting together with other styles to test skills, I'm just not big on fighting for sport or exhibitionism.

How is fighting for sport, to challenge yourself, different from getting together with other styles? Fundamentally, that is what you are doing, except you are doing it in public.

Word of note: Fighting in the ring isn't necessarily an "ego trip." Entering a competition is just as much about challenging yourself to improve, or rating your skill level vs others, as it is about winning. And don't give me the"improvement isn't about being better than the other guy..." If that were true, then martial arts wouldn't be, in large part, about training to defend yourself be being better than the other guy who's attacking you. :D

[Merryprankster]

Apprentice, royal dragon;

They have a word for "good morals," in the combative sport scene. It's called "sportsmanship," and my wrestling coaches and BJJ instructor won't have it any other way.

Apprentice: Your analogy of planet CMA, vice combative sport plays to the idea that ring fighters are low brow and morally inferior to those who have adopted a CMA mindset. They aren't. They do their fighting in the ring, and behave like gentlemen towards each other afterwards. They have the discipline and drive to prepare their body and will to win in gruelling competition with each other, and at the end of the day, behave in a respectful manner. At least the good sportsmen do.

I've seen plenty of folks in "traditional arts," that are 'bad sports.' Moral development is moral development, whether you call it good sportsmanship or a KF mindset or something else entirely. TMA training does not imbue the practitioner with superior morals any more than ring fighting imbues them with inferior ones.

[Apprentice]

MY bad, i DID know that wrestling was a Martial art(known as grappling) why i said it wasn't? dont know,
however, i did NOT know that Thai n what not was NOT a martial art...thanx for telling me though, knowledge is power


I'm starting to think, that the more 'sporty' arts, such as the ones in UFC just happen to go good against eachother, and the ones in San Shaou(sp?) go good with eachother...so the blending of these more oftenly is kind of a bad thing for the practicioners...i think MORE kung fu people from san shaou n such, the ones that wish to compete should try against arts that aren't like theirs, and that way they can learn to adapt to different styles, but of course, its a matter of choice

[Merryprankster]

Steven T,

You seem to be saying that the lack of TCMA ring fighting, in your view stems from a sort of western view about what is and isn't done in TCMA's. Is that correct?

Do you also believe that the rules are so restrictive as to seriously limit a KF practitioner, generally speaking?

What are your thoughts on the following?

1. Interest in the esoteric includes a fascination with Eastern Philosophy/cultural which seems so much more "spiritual," than Western (if you can call lack of both rigorous logic and curiosity, philosophy...another topic for another time though)

2. The martial arts, thanks to the "spiritual" folks in the west become about "self-improvement," to be valued WAY above martial skill.

3. Fighting, and especially for sport, becomes a crass rude thing, that "WE," just don't do, because it's just "so much meat."

Has this been a pattern in your view, and does it tie in with/contribute to, the lack of Kung Fu ring fighters in MMA?

[Merryprankster]

So far I've got the following score card:

1 for rules too restrictive in MMA

3 for, TCMA's just really aren't interested in this. Of these:
1 believes it is a shame that they aren't interested
2 believe it is anathema to the principles of TCMA

3 KF guys who'd like to go and beat the **** out of people and do a proper job of it too. :D

[reemul]

Improving your fighting skills is not based on being better than "the other guy" because you are not " the other guy" and therefore your frame of referrence is entirely inaccurate. Just because you can't beat someone doesn't mean that you lack improvement.

MA events are all about Ego trippin

There is a difference between training and fighting in a ring for a crowd. Fighting exhibition is totally based on Ego tripin. Everyone is there to "Prove something" to others, I don't need such events to know whether I am improving. I don't need to prove to anyone else that I can fight. My ability is more important than whether or not anyone knows about it. I don't need to be known as "The champ".

Training with other styles isn't about proving you or your style, it's about getting a different perspective, and dealing with it given your particular training.


I do think a good KF guy could hold his own in MMA. I just don't think alot care for it. They don't see it as the ultimate testing grounds.

Now when you where describing all the chokes that people have had on you, it sounds like someone was taking it easy on you or didn't know what they where doing. The windpipe choke is an interresting example of someone pulling the technique to keep you alive. When first applying it, your opponent could have just crushed your windpipe with a quick motion(if the tech. was a tiger claw), or they could have ripped your windpipe out, rather than slowly trying to choking you. This is what people are referring to when dicussing discrepancies of grappling vs KF. Now you have already admitted that you had these chokes applied, so doing what I have described is well within the possibility that you have outlined.

When I sparred a grappler for the first time I put my hand on his throat to let him know I could, he didn't think much could come of it so I gave him some incentive, I grabed his windpipe to the point that my fingers touched my thumb behind the pipe, so much for him going for the jointlock. Again the MMA and NHB type events are a narrow scope of MA, they are just the glorrified portion of it.

[Merryprankster]

I'm surprised the grappler let you have the throat that easy. Most of us submission types are trained to protect our necks and faces pretty well. Interesting. Or alternately, I am impressed that you have such skill. No sarcasm intended.

And, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I reject the hypothesis that ring fighting is an ego trip. I also reject the idea that we don't train to be better than the other guy. We do, or else we aren't training to defend ourselves, we're just fooling ourselves while we train.

[reemul]

So you view improvement as being better than everyone else. So how will you ever know you have improved and others haven't deteriorated. Do you plan to fight everyone in the world.

If MMA and NHB events aren't about ego trippin, then why the crowd. What does the crowd have to do with training. Are members of the crowd go to jump in.

As for letting me get at his throat, he didn't have much say in the matter. Some of us KF guys actually train (conditioning and technique) and are versed in grappling as it pertains to our systems.

Just because you train to protect certain areas, doesn't mean your invincible. I train not to be taken to ground, doesn't mean I won't and doesn't mean I will be out of my element either.

[Paul]

yep, nothing like beating that dead horse one more time. I could try to defend kung fu, but it's not worth the effort. Think whatever y'all want.

If you guys are into rolling around on the ground with other men for hours on end, more power to you. It's not for me.

[reemul]

Not dissin here but
if you determine your improvement based on beating the other guy, your sites aren't high enough.

[Merryprankster]

Paul, you're completely missing the point.

Why do YOU think there's been a lack of quality Kung Fu representation in MMA events?

That's the point of the thread. I could give a rat's ass about arguing over the effectiveness of Kung Fu or training or whatever. I'm trying to answer that one question. The side discussions are just that: Things that pop up in the thread.

Are you related to Budokan by chance?

Reemul, some people like to watch fights, hence the crowd. If you think I compete at BJJ events to win the adoration of the crowd and get a medal around my chest that says I beat everybody, think again. But, you are welcome to believe what you like.

Thanks for the small lecture, but I am perfectly aware that some Kung Fu guys train diligently and are quite capable fighters. I'm perfectly aware that there are good Kung Fu guys out there and probably quite a number of them capable of kicking ass, just like there are crappy wrestlers and BJJers who are lazy and can't be bothered to improve.

I would suggest that if you aren't training to beat the other guy, you are fooling yourself. But again, we simply disagree. That's fine.

The hostility about this subject is remarkably intense. Not you specifically Reemul, just in general. I'm kind of amazed. I've made a concerted effort to 1. Not go the MMA is SOOOOOO much better than Kung Fu route, which is not only unprovable, but not particularly useful, and 2. Try to ensure that there isn't any "well, that technique wouldn't work crap..." I mean if it goes that way, not much I can do about it, but it sure doesn't answer the question well!

BTW, thanks for providing your perspective on why KF seems to be not particularly well represented in MMA events.

[reemul]

I don't think Merryprankster is saying that KF can't hang, just that the good ones don't show up. I have to agree.

[reemul]

I'm revisiting the idea of forming a group of different styles to get together and train. But not in a the compacity to where there is a crowd. Fighting in front of a crowd tends to fuel the ego. No one wan'ts to be beaten or embarrassed in public, thus the ego trip begins. IF people are ego tripin they tend to go instinctual rather than methodical. After your matches, do you celebrate?

[Merryprankster]

Reemul,

I'm sorry. I just reread my last post. The small lecture bit sounds pretty snotty. My apologies. It's late and it's been a long (84 hour) work week.

As far as do I celebrate? Not really. I admit to being pleased with myself, but usually, it's because of something specific "Hey, I used that new guard pass I've been working... or you know that new sub combo? Finally pulled it off!"

That sort of thing.

Funny story... I went to a tournament in Disney World where I was in a match with this guy and I did something stupid and he got me. Since he was down 5-0 and there were only 10 sec left, he was very excited and rightfully so! He was jumping up and down and with arms to the sky screaming yes! At the top of his lungs. I got up and started laughing because he had a wild look in his eyes... it was really humorous, in a nice, celebratory way. He was pretty happy he won, not that he'd beaten me, and it had a pretty good vibe about it. Anyway, he saw me laughing with him, and he realized what he was doing and started laughing too. THAT'S the way celebration should be, if it's done at all :)

[reemul]

I didn't think much of it.

[Paul]

Hahaha.
Nope no relation to Budokan as far as I know.

I don't think a lot of kung fu guys are that interested in NHB fighting. Not really sure why.

One thing though is that just for fighting in the ring with gloves on, you have to change the way you strike. At my school sparring is done two ways- bare knuckle and with gloves on for sanshou training. The two fighting styles are different, then you start to add ground fighting and what do you have? Something that doesn't really look like stereotypical kung fu.

Our techniques are deadlier than a m*ther f*cker. heh.

[Archangel]

"Just because you can't beat someone doesn't mean that you lack improvement."

Very true, some guys just have your number. But if you are not learning from your mistakes and he is beating you the same way everytime, it does tell you something. Actually fighting is the best way to gauge your improvement though, IMO.

"MA events are all about Ego trippin"

All about Ego trippin? come on, not any more than a hockey, basketball, football or any contest done in front of a crowd. Hell if your going to go so far, I'll say a Wushu demonstration is ego trippin as well.

"I don't need such events to know whether I am improving"

Tell me then, how do you know? How does a basketball player know he's improving, easy by his performance during a game. How do you know, your learning calculous 101, easy by passing the final exam.

"I do think a good KF guy could hold his own in MMA. I just don't think alot care for it. They don't see it as the ultimate testing grounds."

I agree, I could see a good Sanda/Kuoshu guy with some groundfighting training could do very well in MMA, they are very good fighters. Is MMA the street? Of course not, nobody is saying it is, however I do believe that MMA is the best LEGAL event that displays the best overall fighting ability.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Merry 'P',

Sorry about the brief reply, been up all night with a sick child.

Short answer (for now) is 'Yes' you've about summed up what I think is a major but maybe not so obvious contributory factor(s).

A lot of Chinese actually don't see KF the way 'we' (qualified remark) do in the west - thanks to David Carradine, the '60's' et al.

There is plenty of full contact in HK and Singapore and now mainland China but very few TCMA 'westerners' would in my belief put themselves up for a western model NHB, Pankration or MMA scenario. For too many it just wouldn't 'compute'.

I beleive it is a reflection on a general lack of reality based training and practice in many TCMA (in the west) - even in many Chinese schools in the west.

I accept of coures that other causes are at work, but would like to offer this one for consideration or otherwise.

Regards,

Steve.

[Braden]

Whoa, these kinds of threads really take off, huh!? ;)

Assorted comments -

**Apprentice - Re: Sports, Martial Arts, Ways of Life.

These all have rather specific definitions. Kungfu can be used as a sport just as easily as wrestling can. (Koushu and sanshou are sports, for example). Wrestling can be a way of life just as much as kungfu can, or poetry, or anything else. It's about how the individual approaches it, no 'cultural transmission' has the patent on being a sport, martial art, nor way of life.

**Archangel - "This might not sit well but it seems that the Kung Fu pro fighters have not reached this level yet."

I was under the impression that K1 follows 'kickboxing' rules rather than 'standup' rules. Extrapolating 'kickboxing' results to 'standup fighting' results holds no merit whatsoever.

**Jon - "Braden this really worried me...Your telling me you can stick your finger in your eye and it doesnt hurt! ok i find that a little strange considering mine start to hurt when my eyelash go's in them"

Please use some common sense. Sure it's irritating when your eyelashes get in your eyes. Is it the kind of irritating that is going to have any effect on you fighting? Stick your index finger into one of your eyesockets right now. Go ahead, it's perfectly safe. Be gentle. Just stick it in enough to barely hook the lower rim of the eyesocket. Are you in agony? I'm doing it now, and it's not even slightly irritating. Push it in a bit further. Still not the slightest bit of pain. Stop there, since you CAN cause yourself serious damage going further. Chances are very high that you won't though. There are some ways to martially damage the eyes. Sticking your finger into the socket isn't one of them.

"As for the throat i told you to strike the voice box this is impossible to flex and can be crushed without much effort with a sharp strike."

I'm not sure what anatomy you're learning. I've taken sharp strikes there and it sucked bigtime but did no serious damage. To damage the front of the throat, you have to get in and around that wall of cartlige which you think is so fragile - something you cannot do with a normal strike.

"If your really not concerned with getting hit in these areas..."

Please don't put words in my mouth. :)

[Merryprankster]

Thanks Steve, I appreciate the response, ESPECIALLY if you've been up with a sick child all night!

I kinda figured you would feel that way.

Paul, thanks for the response. Question for you-- have you tried MMA gloves? Would it make a difference in how you strike or can you not speculate?

Also, HOW does your striking differ with gloves on?

[Braden]

BTW - Is Royal Dragon right about striking a grounded opponent being illegal in most MMA venues? I seem to recall Sakuraba (who I think is awesome) standing back and kicking the legs of confused Gracies trying to play their guard.

[Merryprankster]

In PRIDE, you could not strike an opponent that is on all fours if you were standing. However, I believe that has changed (don't quote me). If you were to lift one hand or foot off the mat, say to grab a leg, though, you could get whacked. I presonally dislike this rule and hope that it HAS changed.

Sakuraba would use this rule to his advantage to turtle, and then they would stand the fighters back up if the other guy decided he didn't want to go to the ground, but, as I said, I believe that changed.

Now, if you are on your BACK, you can get kicked and punched freely.

[Paul]

Are WWF style elbow drops legal ? :)

[Archangel]

You're right, standup fighting encompasses so much more than what K1 tests, it does not take into account standup grappling at all. K1 I believe is more than kickboxing though, maybe it's best striker.

Oh ya, the pride rule has changed, you can strike a downed opponent. It's only the UFC that does not allow it.

[Braden]

Ah.... so he could pelt their legs while they were in the guard, but if they turtled he'd have to stop?

That makes sense. Well... it doesn't make sense, but it explains what I saw, heh.

I still think Sak is great though. He always seems to have control over his center, even though he moves really fast. I don't see that quality in many of the fighters of those venues.

[Merryprankster]

Depends on the event Paul :)

Although, thanks to athletic commissions, in most places, elbow strikes to the spine are not allowed. Lord only knows why...

Athletic commissions don't like blood... and given the danger of blood-borne pathogens, I can understand why...although MMA events tend to be freer than most other events about blood. Anyway, the point is that elbows have this tendency to open cuts up on the face and since that bleeds a lot, the athletic commissions don't like it.

Ah well.

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

Yup. Some of those guys in Pride and UFC events are kinda ugly to watch... you'll notice that the better ones have a game plan and some skills though... Sak, Renzo Gracie, Couture, Tito, etc.

[reemul]

I agree with most of what you said.

I'm not arguing the need to test ones skill, I just don't think you need to do it in a stadium filled with people. Isn't it enough for you to know where you went wrong or right or how much you improved, or do you need a stadium full of people, of whom most don't no squat, to lagitimize your progress.

The only difference with the likes of football and basket ball these are occupation, even still there is a whole lot of ego tripin at all these events. But what does that have to do with KF in the MMA.

To Braden,

The windpipe can be crushed just by squeezing it. The problem with these types of techniques is you can kill someone relitively easy. It just takes a split second. Most people would like to avoid going to jail for manslaughter for killing a training partner or anyone else for that matter. Now I'm not saying KF is too deadly for MMA(unless unrestrained), but some of you MMA and grapplers are dissillusioned to think something like that won't harm you and cause you to cease fighting.

[reemul]

Just reading your posts on rules, I can see why this would affect anybody let alone a KF guy.

Unless I "Train to compete" I think I would do poorly in these events. As well my training would take on a whole new methodology. Right now I have no concern for what I can and cant do because of rules, I'm just limited to what I can pull off given the skill of my opponent(at my school). To adjust my training to take "advantage" of certain rules would put me into a gaming mode. Then it becomes no more credible than TKD point sparring. Yes its more brutal, but the rules narrow the scope of reality thus becoming unreal.

There is nothing wrong with MA'ist getting together and testing skills but makeing an event that caters to a crowd just serves to feed the ego. Now maybe some don't ego trip, but most do.

[scotty1]

Maybe people aren't confident enough of their skills.

I don't really follow these events, but as far as I can tell each time a KF guy has entered he has lost badly. Sorry if thats not true, please correct me. Muay thai, wrestling BJJ etc have all been proven to be effective in this arena. People are unsure of whether KF is suited to these rules, so who's going to enter a competition where the rules may or may not be beneficial and EVERYONE who's gone before them has lost? Who wants to be the next person to be humiliated and bring ridicule on themselves and their art? Why they've lost, I don't know, but I do know this:

KF is based around kicks and punches, yes? Therefore a top level Kung Fu man should be able to fight against any other style using just kicks and punches. (maybe substitute kicks and ounches for basic strikes) OK, you can't use pressure points, but neither can MT. An example:

Competitor 1: Muay Thai fighter / boxer with groundwork skills.

Competitor 2: Kung Fu guy. No extended groundwork skills.

Now, as I see it , in stand up they are matched, right? people might disagree but that would be a style vs. style debate, and what I am saying is that THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RULES that would give the MT man an advantage, as yes, the more lethal KF techs are outlawed, but still the MT man cannot do anything the KF man cannot. So TECHNICALLY, within the rules, they are matched. Even more so with a boxer, because then his stand up is inferior as far a range of techs goes.

The lack of ground work is something that is a part of KF training in general. But still the KF man should have trained anti takedown techs etc. for entering this type of tournament.

So, as far as I see it, there is nothing in the rules (bearing in mind I only know what I know from conversation) that would give a KF man a disadvantage. Which brings us back to the question. It's not the rules, IMO. Its the morals, in Jons opinion. Well, I wouldn't say morals, I would say mindset. If you've been trained and have embraced a way of life which discourages violence at all costs, but still fully prepares for it as a worst case scenario, then obviously you are not going to enter a NHB comp. for money. And I would hazard a guess that the really high level practitioners are the ones who have embraced this way of life.

And that's maybe why there's no-one from the KF world who's entered the UFC or similar who's actually good enough to win.

[Budokan]

Haven't we heard enough of this stupid sh*t?

It never godd*mn ends, does it? Time and time again someone drags out this dead horse so everyone can have a whack at it. And puh-leeze, don't give me that "this is a serious inquiry" garbage. (MerryPrankster, you should know better than to pull that old polemic with me, or to resort to ad hominem attacks--which is often the last refuge of someone who doesn't have facts on their side. And yes, this is a TROLL topic and you f*cking well know it.)

Us old-timers (at least as far as KFO is concerned) around here have seen this thread again and again rear its head in some manifestation. This is obviously just another attempt to stir the waters with all the new members we have now. It's poor form, and beneath you.

Then again...

[Bak Mei]

OK, I read the first few post and I came up with my initial response: because most people entering these things aren't much more than average MA.

Paul the guy robbing you ate the ATM may not know BJJ, but he may know how to take you down. You should know how to put him down without being taken down. That means fighting grapplers. Fighting kickers, boxers, wrsetles, karate. Tai Kwon Do, Mantis, everybody.

The people displaying their skill in these events I do not relate too, just like I do not relate to the Monks I saw on channel 13 doing cartweels and breaking thin lumber over their heads. I do not relate to the guys swinnging an aluminum foil broadsword either. These guys will always represent MA to the outside world, but they do not represent me and what I study.

I represent myself.

Know this though, there are people training hard, underground, keeping it real.

I want to come out, bring it above ground. That is one of my missions right now. I'm training. The three year goal has been cut to 2. Progress.

Peace
Happy New Year. Don't let pajamas guys get you down. Find a good sifu, train hard.

[Budokan]

Your logic as presented in the first post of this thread is flawed.

1. There are legal ramifications to fighthing in the street, and the danger of being cornholed. (Quite true.)

2. Therefore, structured fighting in the ring is the only way to test your MA skills. Oh, and by the way, why aren't there any identifiably good kf stylists who rassle?

Quite wrong. Why must rasslers always default to the ring--an excrebly commercialized venue--to prove their mettle and question the worth of others? And why do they consistently believe that others who don't want to fight in these cheesy gladitorial contests are by default inferior in mind and body?

It speaks more to the psyche of rasslers (decked out in their colorful Nascar gis) than the efficacy of their style.

But then again, that's another tenet (dead horse) many rasslers don't agree with: person over style. For many of them, it's the reverse, which again speaks to how they view the limitations of the individual over the stylistic "purity" of their style.

Let's see, you've beat this f*cking horse for several pages now. --And I still stand by my first statement. This is a troll topic and it's a silly way to start off the new year. But then again, I'm slowly but surely becoming inured to the ways and means of rassler mania --especially after seeing this same topic in one manifestation or another for almost a calender year.

As a well-known wag once put it: (was it Chesterton? [sp?]), and to paraphrase: "You are trapped in the well-lit prison of one idea."

Enough already. Puh-leeze. :rolleyes:

[DelicateSound]

Isn't there like 1000 bullets in its head alone
It is no longer alive
It is not twitching
It has slipped of its mortal coil
Leave it in peace, all of you. Or take it to the glue factory.

Although IMHO, every MA should have some knowledge of groundfighting.

[truewrestler]

ALL STRIKES TO DOWNED OPPONENTS AND THOSE ON ALL FOURS IS NOW LEGAL IN PRIDE, FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS I BELIEVE

MP, I have lost so much respect for you...haha...just kiddin. Great thread :)

I'll have to come back tonight and read all this...just too much to consume at work

for anyone interested in seeing some MMA, goto http://www.sherdog.com/videos.shtm and download some of the videos...i suggest Frank Shamrock, Sakuraba, Vanderlei Silva, Royce Gracie, Igor V...also http://www.superbrawl.tv/multimedia.htm has some complete and good fights

[jon]

Im only posting this to let you know my rant was not directed you specificaly so much as the many people who had felt the need to try and take many of the things i had said way out of context.
Your question started off being asked very nicely with little or no disrepect intended.
Following what you had asked i posted some reasons i felt why i personaly hadnt seen kf fighters of a good level in NHB, or more to the point why they dont compete reguarly. Im no authority and never stated i was speaking for the whole KF popuation it was just my opinion.
This was then met by a bombardment of negativtiy and 'you cant prove that' type arguments.
Im not out to 'prove' anything, i was asked for my ideas i gave them.
My reasons for getting heated are simply that im not sure what the point is of asking for information if you have already made up your mind?
Can you not understand how this might annoy me?
I realise this is not all you but its kind of silly having this whole prove it argument when your talking about seriously hurting people. Ive been hit in preasure points i know what they do, ive personaly used made use of my art and one member of my club managed to fight off six drunk football freaks who were beating up his son by himself. I know my arts work for what i want them to, i dont ask for anything more or expect it. If people WANT to fight in public and in tournaments I have no problem with that. Like it or not though they DO have to adapt to sport and not everyone wants to move away from a styles battlefield roots.
I just dont get this whole if its never been in a ring infront of millions of people it obviously cant be real argument.
Just becouse we dont like to fight for money or 'who's the best' type scenarios does not mean we never test the arts in private against other skilled practioners. Its just its usualy done in a different way and mostly behind closed doors. Sometimes in the spirit of learning or testing and sometimes its just simply a no holds bared fight. People in the latter situtions are often seriously hurt. Not saying I do this personaly im just saying it certainly happens. I know my sifu has had a few challenge matches its fairly common in TCMA.
i just believe that for me its preferable to not adapt an art and fighter for ring fighting, as to me this is not indicative of realistic street self defence. It could even provide the student with a false confort zone.
Also i didnt mean to offend anyone with my whole moral stand on public violence. Ive said many times i have no problem with NHB its just... for me, its against my morals and not my thing.

Braden
We may just have to agree to disagree on this whole eye throat thing, ive been hit in the eye lightly during sparring and it stopped me in my tracks. Certainly long enough to be exploited badly if i was on the street. I could also say the same for my personal experience with being hit in neck. Ive never been hit hard and i really would not want to be.

[truewrestler]

Budokan...nevermind

[scotty1]

Sports combat is not street combat. And I don't think anybody would say that it was. But it certainly wouldn't do any harm being a good tourney fighter against most of the *******s on our streets and in our pubs. But you got to have trained realistically too.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Apprentice, royal dragon;

They have a word for "good morals," in the combative sport scene. It's called "sportsmanship," and my wrestling coaches and BJJ instructor won't have it any other way.


Problem is at any BJJ tourney you will see tons of gang tats. But wait, Japanese Yakuza practice Goju Ryu karate (+ others) the triads practice wing tsun. So I guess it is not that different.

[bamboo_ leaf]

In the early 70s at the time what was called full contact karate was the way of testing things.

Names like Mike Stone, Bob Wallace, Jeff Smith and many others where just as known as those now for the other combative events.

The kung fu people that I knew at that time where busy adapting what they did to the ring. In many instances I think this adaptation really deconstructed their style. How many times have people wondered or asked why doesn’t KF look like KF when used. I think part of the reason is that the adaptation by teachers to make their art more in tune with the times.

instead of training and developing their style they trained for the next event. is it the same ?

The post that I read concerning KF or CMA seems to me to be made by people who have never really had a chance to feel or see good CMA in action. I can appreciate the skill and power of those that do compete in these events but also notice that claims of world championships usually leave out China and other places.

[straightblast5]

Merry Prankster

I will do my best to answer your original question from my perspective. I believe the reason that you don’t see too many CMA practitioners in western NHB events (or any other sporting events) is because of the changes in certain structures and concepts required to adapt to a sporting event of any type. I myself come from a lineage where fighting is for sport (or for the improvement of self) is definitely NOT looked down upon, and we do NOT base our success in combat on pressure point strikes (or upon any technique anymore deadly than a punch or a kick). That is why we have successful fighters in combat based sporting events.

However, speaking from my experience with both the Chinese martial arts and sporting events, I can attest to you that adaptation (to the “traditional” methods) had to be made before any of my fighters were ready to compete. I believe that many CMA practitioners are not willing to readjust their methods merely to win a competition. For example, Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) is based conceptually upon the three principles of simplicity, directness, and efficiency. Training to adhere to these three principles takes a lot of dedication and hard work before they are innate within every movement and approach. Training to fight within any rules will draw the practitioner away from the three core principles (however slight). So many practitioners refuse to compete under the belief that conditioning themselves for the ring might hinder their efficiency in actual combat.

Though I agree with you that attributes gained from ring fighting will enable the fighter to deal with many so-called "street" attacks, the execution and structure of strikes (be it a punch or a kick) and other particular techniques (as you have mentioned, the eye gouge) are different enough under real circumstances to warrant re-examination. A trained ring fighter can definitely be a good street fighter, but I feel that a person training specifically (within a particular structure and mindset) for the street and has the same attributes (from practicing ring sports or otherwise) will be the more efficient fighter.

I will not list the structural and conceptual changes that my colleagues and I had to make to be successful in the sporting arena as it is very difficult to explain the structural changes (or any physical technique) accurately with words. As exemplified by your dismissal of my suggestion for a takedown defense as something that you could easily pass until you realized that what I suggested was similar to a “buckback” (something that that you were familiar with) on a previous thread.

Now, the reason that I (as a Chinese martial artist) choose to enter myself and my students into sporting events is because I feel that training for "sport" can offer one the attributes to better execute techniques (deadly or not) against a resisting opponent. (When I say attributes I mean strength, speed, focus, etc…)

However, this is not the only way to build combat proficiency, as the martial arts also have other methods of honing attributes and combat abilities. You don’t become combat proficient from combat alone. There are drills within the many martial arts methods to progressively lead a practitioner to full out bloody combat even if one never engages in such. For example, judo player isolates techniques to drill before moving onto randori. Chinese martial artist do the same (in terms of isolating techniques and drilling them against a resisting opponent). However, (as you have noted) this is not debate on the effectiveness of CMA, so I'll move on to my next point.

Sparring (to whatever degree) is an important part of any serious martial arts curriculum, but not being able to separate fighting within a controlled setting (which includes events like Pride and the UFC) and a real no-holds-barred street fight will seriously hinder a fighter from efficiently incapacitating his/her opponent (s). The types of rules definitely determine the benefits that these ring sports have to actual combat. However, I'll still stick to my opinion that ring sports alone, no matter how realistic, cannot complete a fighter who's training for efficiency in actual combat. I see ring sports as a training tool to enhance attributes, but practiced by themselves, they often condition a practitioner to fight within preset limits, no matter how slight those limits are.

And many CMA practitioners are not willing to alter their training to accommodate for the rules of competition, no matter how slight the rules are. This has nothing to do with the deadliness of the CMA techniques, but a matter of a willingness to adapt existing techniques and concepts to competition.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[yuanfen]

There is enough of a problem in getting good discussions withina style or across kung fu styles between people with some depth of knowledge and relevant experience, i dont know why newbies waste time with the bjjj and related trolls who ask the same questions again and again
and sometimes claiming an open mind. Cheers and good bye to ALL bjj=ers and their threads.

[truewrestler]

no biting, no eye gouging, no fish hooking, no time limits

how different is that? how much adaptation is needed? what techniques must be limited? to me it looks like biting eye gouging and fish hooking. Sure there have been more rules added but that limits all fighters, not just traditional or kung fu stylist.

Fighting is fighting. There may not be one end all answer in the martial arts but MMA has shown that they all look similar....well the ones that succeed. There are dozens of arts out their that MMA fighters have trained in but when you fight and test your skills the bad techniques are dropped and the useful kept. Coincidence? I think not!!!

[Tigerstyle]

(Man, Straightblast beat me to this point, and he said it much more clearly, but oh well. Here goes... :) )

I think the argument against the rules isn't only about how restrictive they are. When there are rules in place of any kind, there will eventually be sort of loopholes or things that competitors can use to take advantage of having the rules in place.

Ex: Sakuraba "turtling" to force a referee stand up took advantage of the rule about not striking a downed opponent. Although that rule is gone now (right?), there will always be strategies to take advantage of rules like that.

If someone were to compete in that type of event, it would be in their best interest to know the rules (and how to bend them) to develop your in-ring fighting strategy. That may take much time to get good at, which some people see as counter-productive as it has no relevance outside of the venue (other than problem-solving experience). Many feel there are other things to better spend valuable time on.

- Gloves: While they are there for safety (reduce number of cuts and protect the hands), they do change the dynamics of a fight. People do some things with gloves on that they wouldn't do without (and vice versa).

Merryprankster had mentioned that more effective striking to the head is possible with the aid of the MMA gloves. That alone is a dramatic change from "the streets", as many people cite the dangers of closed-fist punching to a hard target (like the skull). Before the gloves, broken hands were somewhat common in "NHB" events (from what I remember. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

Many people say that boxers would hurt their hands in reality because they train to punch to the head and always fight with protected hands/wrists. I think the gloves in MMA could lead to the same thing, which would hamper a person training to defend themselves outside the ring (For the record though, I do support the use of gloves in MMA).

To counter the counterpoint about "Brazil has Vale Tudo with very few rules" when used against "UFC has too many rules, which is why there is no good kung fu in it" (whew): It might be true that Brazil has the NHB matches with little or no rules, but I have never seen it. Much of it is in the streets and unpublicized, correct? For all I know there could be some good kung fu going on there that's holding its own, but it's not on TV (at least not in Las Vegas). Much of the publicized stuff has all the rules in it. (I know I'm grasping at straws here, but it's just a thought and it could be possible :) )

(To be continued...)

[truewrestler]

no biting, no eye gouging, no fish hooking, no time limits

how different is that? how much adaptation is needed? what techniques must be limited? to me it looks like biting eye gouging and fish hooking. Sure there have been more rules added but that limits all fighters, not just traditional or kung fu stylist.

Fighting is fighting. There may not be one end all answer in the martial arts but MMA has shown that they all look similar....well the ones that succeed. There are dozens of arts out their that MMA fighters have trained in but when you fight and test your skills the bad techniques are dropped and the useful kept. Coincidence? I think not!!!

[Tigerstyle]

Concerning the "Ego-trippin' Tournaments":
I entered a grappling tournament about a year or so ago. I did it to see what my skill level was, not to show the world how tough I was. True, there was a crowd there, but there was also a mix of many different people with many different training methods and strategies to be tested against. The crowd was just a factor to deal with, not a reason for competing.

Anyhoo, I got my tail end handed to me on 2 out of the 3 matches I was in (man, if that doesn't teach you humility I don't know what does), but I learned alot about my self and where I'm at in my training. I worked hard in there and I am proud of what I accomplished (I won a match, and I didn't tap out to anyone. Woo hoo!). In a way it did boost my self esteem (or ego, if you like) a little, but that was a by-product of the experience and not dependent on the cheers of the crowd or the size of the medal. Besides, It's a little hard to ego trip when you've got someone's forearm on your neck (for what felt like an eternity :eek: ).

I agree that lots of people compete for glory, but I know I wasn't the only person there to compete for "non-ego" reasons.


Note to people that are tired of this "dead horse":
If you don't like it, why are you reading it? "That's all there is to read" is a false answer as there are many things to discuss on this board (making fun of Canadians, for example ;) ). If you truly would like the dead horse to die, my suggestion would be to not post anything on the thread. Everytime you post something about how much of a waste of time the topic is, the thread gets bumped to the top for everyone to see, and read, and respond to, etc.

I think deep down, you all like BJJ/MMA threads :). Otherwise you wouldn't post on those threads and keep 'em alive.

[Braden]

reemul - It's easy to test the durability of a windpipe. Go to your local university and attend an animal physiology lab, ask to play with one of the cadavers after the students are done.

scotty - No, kungfu is not based on kicking and punching. Since your initial premise is flawed, so is the rest of your argument.

jon - My mom's the same way, so you're in good company.

everyone posting on this thread only to say how stupid it is to post on this thread - Stop and appreciate the irony.

[DelicateSound]

You could say the same for 95% of the threads here :rolleyes:

[straightblast5]

true wrestler,

"how different is that? how much adaptation is needed? what techniques must be limited? to me it looks like biting eye gouging and fish hooking. Sure there have been more rules added but that limits all fighters, not just traditional or kung fu stylist."

How much adaptation depends on the methods you regularly practice. As I have stated, adaptation is more than taking out "fish hooking or eye gouging". Contrary to what you might believe from your experiences, martial arts relies on more than just superficial techniques. Structures within any method of martial arts are executed upon set principles and concepts. Training for competition will alter the structure and approach of particular techniques (including punches and kicks), thus altering the principles and concepts of movement inherent in the said method. So how much or what adaptation is needed? Well, it's hard to list or explain to someone who don't study or are close-minded to any approach outside of NHB. As I have stated it is very difficult to explain the structural changes (or any physical technique) accurately with written words. As exemplified by Merry Prankster's dismissal of my suggestion for a takedown defense as something that could easily be passed until he realized that what I suggested was similar to a “buckback” (something that that he was familiar with) on a previous thread.

"Fighting is fighting. There may not be one end all answer in the martial arts but MMA has shown that they all look similar....well the ones that succeed. There are dozens of arts out their that MMA fighters have trained in but when you fight and test your skills the bad techniques are dropped and the useful kept."

You're right, fighting is fighting, but competition is not. MMA competition has shown that they all look similar because they had to make adaptations and drop techniques when they don't work for competition, not real life.

My original post was an attempt to answer MP's original question (from my experiences with both "traditional" CMA and combat-based sporting events) to why CMA guys don't commonly participate in sporting events (even though my students and I do). I chose to post my comments to MP because I assume that he is an open minded individual, and I believe I've done so in clear manner. I did not come to this thread with the intent of defending the effectiveness of the Chinese martial arts. Something like that cannot be addressed with words alone.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[truewrestler]

"they had to make adaptations and drop techniques when they don't work for competition, not real life."

what are you talking about? please explain...

why would something not work in competition when the only rules are no eye gouging fishhooking and biting. What does not work in this competition? Well, in my opinion they are techniques that don't work. Are you speaking of techniques that don't work against a trained opponent?

What are you talking about? Please explain....why would you have to alter anything other than not using eye gouges, fish hooking, and biting. What else would you have to adapt? You don't have to adapt anything else, right?

Please Explain....

[straightblast5]

True wrestler,

I don't train to fight against the untrained and I've already explained my reasoning as clearly as I possibly could with written words. But I'll reiterate since you have missed these points in my previous posts.

An excerpt from my previous post…

How much adaptation depends on the methods you regularly practice. As I have stated, adaptation is more than taking out "fish hooking or eye gouging". Contrary to what you might believe from your experiences, martial arts relies on more than just superficial techniques. Structures within any method of martial arts are executed upon set principles and concepts. Training for competition will alter the structure and approach of particular techniques (including punches and kicks), thus altering the principles and concepts of movement inherent in the said method. So how much or what adaptation is needed? Well, it's hard to list or explain to someone who don't study or are close-minded to any approach outside of NHB. As I have stated it is very difficult to explain the structural changes (or any physical technique) accurately with written words. As exemplified by Merry Prankster's dismissal of my suggestion for a takedown defense as something that could easily be passed until he realized that what I suggested was similar to a “buckback” (something that that he was familiar with) on a previous thread.


Another excerpt from my previous post...

However, speaking from my experience with both the Chinese martial arts and sporting events, I can attest to you that adaptation (to the “traditional” methods) had to be made before any of my fighters were ready to compete. I believe that many CMA practitioners are not willing to readjust their methods merely to win a competition. For example, Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) is based conceptually upon the three principles of simplicity, directness, and efficiency. Training to adhere to these three principles takes a lot of dedication and hard work before they are innate within every movement and approach. Training to fight within any rules will draw the practitioner away from the three core principles (however slight). So many practitioners refuse to compete under the belief that conditioning themselves for the ring might hinder their efficiency in actual combat.


Another excerpt from a previous post...

-fighting is fighting, but competition is not. MMA competition has shown that they all look similar because they had to make adaptations and drop techniques when they don't work for competition, not real life.

What I meant by the above comment is that the elimination or addition of particular techniques in MMA competition are done so in the context of competition and not necessarily in context of actual life and death combat. As you are unable or unwilling to distinguish the two, I am sure it is hard for you to comprehend.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[truewrestler]

i will look back through your posts. Thanks for explaining your view.

remember when Bruce Lee said "Be Like Water"?

by the way, what is your sparring like? I know many schools spar differently. How do you spar?

Thanks

[Archangel]

I am sorry, I really do have to admit that i am also a little confused by the statements you underlined. They are a little vague and if you'll indulge me, please let me address them.

"Structures within any method of martial arts are executed upon set principles and concepts. Training for competition will alter the structure and approach of particular techniques (including punches and kicks), thus altering the principles and concepts of movement inherent in the said method."

Can you give me a specific example, how will this alter a punch or kick, except aiming at a different target. Is it the actual mechanics of the strike (direction, speed, power) or the intent.

"For example, Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) is based conceptually upon the three principles of simplicity, directness, and efficiency. Training to adhere to these three principles takes a lot of dedication and hard work before they are innate within every movement and approach. Training to fight within any rules will draw the practitioner away from the three core principles (however slight). So many practitioners refuse to compete under the belief that conditioning themselves for the ring might hinder their efficiency in actual combat."

Again, I think competition is also based on those three principles. You see only a few basic strikes while standing (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, elbows an knees). A few basic takedowns (double/single leg, bearhug, throw). A few postions on the ground(guard, mount, side mount, par teir). And a few submissions (choke, joint lock). How will fighting within rules take a practioner away from these core principles, can you give me a specific example please.

Also many MMA practioners do supplement their training. Every 2 weeks I attend a JKD/Kali class which teaches the street lethal techniques such as eye jabbing, hair pulling, biting, throat striking. I find it fits nicely on top of my regular training and is not in conflict at all. For Instace, I train my jab regularly during boxing; now when it comes to the street i can just extend my fingers and eye jab if I like. The mentality is very different in both arenas, I think their both equally as intense but there is a big difference none the less. I can react to either with the appropriate responses but what gives me an edge on the street is that I bring myself close to that mental level every time I ring fight.

[truewrestler]

be formless, shapless, like water :)

[Shooter]

Why no IDENTIFIABLY good Kung Fu in MMA events? By who's standard are we identifying "good Kung Fu"?

I've been practicing Tai Chi Chuan for 11 years this spring and have been competing in MMA for 5 years (9-7 so far). Big deal!! Am I "identifiably good Kung Fu"? WTF cares? I don't. (although, I'm considered very knowledgeable and capable among the people who's opinion matters to me) Competition is just glorified sparring on neutral ground against a guy who wants to hurt me as badly as he has to in order to win. That's all.

I teach at my own school and do the odd seminar from time to time. I also train MMA fighters and sub-wrestlers. Everything I teach at my school falls under the banner of Tai Chi Chuan (Chinese Boxing). There are no distinctions between so-called "styles" of fighting in what I teach. Tai Chi is everything, and nothing. I don't expect very many non-Tai Chi people to understand that last comment BTW.

Ring-fighting isn't real fighting. Fighting has nothing to do with styles. The bottom line is survival. Sometimes, the only concern is to kill the enemy (survival is gravy). When people start to understand this basic truth, they stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and focus on their own thing.

[Merryprankster]

Ugh.

I'm really not sure how many times I have to say this.

I asked the question based on one thing: There has been a general consensus on this board, from people who's opinion I respect, that no "good," Kung Fu representatives have stepped into the ring.

I was trying to elucidate why this is. Is it cultural (we just don't do that, it's not right)? Is it stylistic (ie, rules)? Is it a question of specialization? Is it simply that most KF practicioners just don't care?

I've never once said Kung Fu doesn't work.
I've not criticized the traditional methods of training.
I've never suggested that a good Kung Fu fighter couldn't fight in the ring.

I've had some things to say about some specific techniques and some mindsets, but those have typically been minor disagreements, not some bizarre attempt to wack styles on the head.

If Jon chooses to train eyestrikes, pressure points and what not, then let him. I personally believe that it is not an efficient use of training time, but so what? He doesn't have to agree with me. On the upshot, he did answer my question.

If Reemul believes that organized competitions are ego-driven to a large extent, let him. I personally believe that's not true, but so what? He answered my question too.

If people believe that MMA events are NOT the most logical place to test combat skill, that's fine. There are some very valid arguments for that. In my mind, the evidence points to ring combat, but for others, other factors weigh heavier in their minds.

I haven't even read the responses much on this thread, to be honest, after Reemul's, except that I did on Budokan's and yuanfen's. Thought pretty long about it, and I guess I came to the conclusion that I don't care much any more.

If serious martial artists like Budokan and Yuanfen, both of whom have opinions I respect, can't see past the fact that I am a grappler (god forbid) who supports MMA competitions when I asked a question that was intended to get people to think more about the mindset of what is practiced and why, then this thread is hopeless.

Grappler+MMA somehow equals bashing Kung Fu styles and I'm not sure why.

I tried pretty hard to steer this sensitive mess in the direction of answering the original question, but it seems I was unsuccessful. Perhaps my delivery was at fault. I think I should have defined the boundaries more narrowly and perhaps should not have gone into exposition on my thinking on the first post in the thread... it provided too much opportunity to argue about what the appropriate test of combat skills is vice WHY Kung Fu is under represented in MMA events.

Bummer.

[Paul]

Kung Fu sucks that's why. Is that the answer you wanted?

hahaha.

[Shooter]

Merryprankster, no problem. My rant wasn't directed toward you...

Maybe those people who's opinions you respect should back up their critical views of those who they say aren't representative of "good Kung Fu" :p
WTH are they to judge anyone else's ability and knowledge anyway?

That's why I asked about a standard.

Every person who dedicates themself to something worthwhile has good Kung Fu though. Even grapplers! ;)

I've seen some awesome Kung Fu represented in UFC, Pride, UCC, etc. It's all about perception I guess.

[yuanfen]

Merryprankster:
Just so that you know. I meant no offense. You have described what you do very well in the past. I have learned from them. But the beginnning of this thread "sounded" like same old same old. Regarding UFC, MMA and even san shou- they are all simulations- and frankly for myself they are not significant avenues for improving my skills.
Do I know whether my skills work for real? Yes/. Have they come in handy for me and my students when they needed them -yes.
After watching some UFC- do I still watch them? No. They began to get boring.
But then with Ralek and the chest beating aspects of threads on this forum- the list discussions in general can get to be uninformative and also boring. Your intent was probably good but the thread soon took on its own cumbersome appendages perhaps because of a profusion of other bad threads. I wish there were more face to face civil discussion opprtunities but
faceless keybparding on the net has its limts in discussions outside
of CMA when within CMA and even in the same art egos get in the way of serious discussions and two way learning. Perhaps the medium( net lists) will mature later.

[Mutant]

Merryprankster, I agree with much of what you have said and I think you make many good points.

In fact, the sifu who influenced me the most (Qinrong Yu) has very similar logic and arguements. And he is from China and teaches CMA, so its not just a chinese -vs- non chinese style observation and arguement. He learned traditional but doesnt teach his stuff in a traditional format of long and endless forms. not that forms are all bad, i learned plenty of them and still enjoy practicing forms i learned from other sifus, but many cma schools these days are all bogged down in forms and trickery, and live in fantasy land. That is one major reason there arent many people fighting in open tournaments, theyre too busy fighting with reality.

I'm really not sure why not many kung fu guys don't compete in the more popular MMA circuits...san da and san shou fighters could cross over with more ground training. and some very high level masters i've been fortunate to meet would probably surprise a lot of people, but most of them are old and disinterested in that stuff by the time they get to that level. i've met and trained with many different people and stylists and I think the core of CMA is very good and would be a great foundation from which to build a MMA fighter, even if would require specialized training for that sport.

A few observations:

it is often taught in a format that would take forever to make practical (same with other styles, not just cma) and the learning curve is way to long, way longer than it needs to be in most cases, and thats if the sifu really knows and/or intends on even giving you the real stuff...

people who are often attracted to it in this country are often really into the fantasy aspect of it, the 'magic' and would be well suited for the Anachronist Society...

many people are in it primarily for reasons other than pure fighting, health, internal and spiritual growth that cma is very rich in (not that thats a bad thing, i think its great)

which can also be a stigmatism for cma...many athletes interested in competing might right it off because of the above observation, they think its all about old people doing tai chi like in the geritol commercials.

at least where i've lived, kung fu schools, and especially great kung fu schools, are hard to find and a lot less common than other asian styles, so the chances of landing the most & best athletes is smaller. Their chances of walking into a karate school are much greater than happening upon kung fu.

it attracts people who are counter-culture and really don't give a sh!t about tournaments (also can be a great thing, i've made some of my best friends through kung fu, some good fighters who really ARE quirky and against the sporting aspects of ring fighting) where as, many styles attract competitive people because theyre popularly known as sports (i didnt say because they were more affective, although often are in practice due to the methods of training often being more practical) so maybe they attract people who are drawn towards that arena.

That still doesnt answer your question completely and i really don't know. Maybe a good fighter will come along soon and prove to other stylists that CMA is good for MMA sport fighting...its really more about exposure to good cma which most people arent aware of, than whether its good or not. Thats why Bruce made such an impact back in the 60s. Maybe someone of his charisma, athleticism and competitiveness will introduce the public to the next level of kung fu.

Now that MMA and NHB fighting has evolved to such a high level of competition, we need more good fighters to train a full arsonal of techniques, using the core power of kung fu, who will work in that arena and step up to the challenge.

[old jong]

IMO, I think it is a cultural thing related to the discipline practiced. Kung fu tends to attract people who are less interested in the competitive aspect of martial arts. Karate,Tae Kwon Do and the likes have competitions but they do it their way in a close circuit fashion.like boxing and amator wrestling they compete inside their arts only for the most.
I heard that even in BJJ, the majority of practitioners do not compete and only practice for the fun of it or as a hobby!
The question is : What is the use of competing? I know about the usual answers like...Testing ourselves and things like that.The majority does not care really about that I think.
It is a question of personnal goals.

[Royal Dragon]

"no biting, no eye gouging, no fish hooking, no time limits "

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did'nt this format die EARLY on in the UFC? i have'nt kept up with the whole world of NHB MMA, but to my knowledge no such contest exists, and when it did, it was over by the time the TCMA crowd even noticed it was there to begin with.


Also, when you train for one thing, but fight for another, don't you think your chances are MUCH worse than if you train for the same fight your planning on competing in?


Also, Kung fu hs a lnger learning curve. If "I" wanted to just fight NHB, I'd go to a "Fighting" school because that would get me in the game right awaay. A Kung Fu school would spen quite a wile building the foundation, and I would'nt want to wait. The MMA school would have me out there right away by comperisen. May the MMA schools just attract the extrme minded fighters because of the shorter learning curve?

Royal Dragon

[straightblast5]

Merry Prankster,

I thought I did answer your original question (to the best of my ability) with tact and honesty. I didn't feel that you were attacking kung fu. In fact, I thought your original question was very legitimate so I gave you the most legitimate answer I could. I am interested in your response to my original post on this thread (as the several after were not directed at you).

I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t read my reponse (and only yuanfen's and budokan’s) :(

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[straightblast5]

Archangel,

"Can you give me a specific example, how will this alter a punch or kick, except aiming at a different target. Is it the actual mechanics of the strike (direction, speed, power) or the intent."

Like I have stated, it is very hard to list specific examples with just written words, so I’m sorry. But answering within the context of MP's original question, sometimes conditioning yourself to "aim at a different target" is enough to turn some CMA (or any other martial artists) away from competition.

"Again, I think competition is also based on those three principles (simplicity, directness, and efficiency). You see only a few basic strikes while standing (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, elbows an knees). A few basic takedowns (double/single leg, bearhug, throw). A few postions on the ground(guard, mount, side mount, par teir). And a few submissions (choke, joint lock). How will fighting within rules take a practioner away from these core principles, can you give me a specific example please."

Conditioning to fight within limits (no matter how slight) in and of itself is considered to be inefficient in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) and many other methods. However, some (like myself) still choose to make accommodations to compete, while some don't. I am not trying to dodge the question, but it is really difficult to describe any specifics with words alone. I don't feel like writing a book and still be misinterpreted. Heck! It took me two or three lengthy posts to clarify my suggestion for a single defense against a takedown to you guys in a previous thread (when MP figured out that my suggestion was a similar to a "buckback")!

"Also many MMA practitioners do supplement their training. Every 2 weeks I attend a JKD/Kali class which teaches the street lethal techniques such as eye jabbing, hair pulling, biting, throat striking. I find it fits nicely on top of my regular training and is not in conflict at all. For Instace, I train my jab regularly during boxing; now when it comes to the street i can just extend my fingers and eye jab if I like. The mentality is very different in both arenas, I think their both equally as intense but there is a big difference none the less. I can react to either with the appropriate responses but what gives me an edge on the street is that I bring myself close to that mental level every time I ring fight."

Good to hear, but like I said, the amount of adaptation depends on the methods you regularly practice. The structure of the movements you regularly practice does not alter (to shift the principles and concepts of your chosen method) significantly enough for you to reconsider competition. However, entering competition does alter more for some than others, but the concern is of personal discretion. Some will go to lengths to alter their methods to compete, while some are not willing to even slightly alter their approaches. I believe that is one of the reasons why some martial artists (CMA or otherwise) don't like to compete.

Like you said, many MMA like to supplement their training with other arts. As you supplement your ring training with more "street efficient" techniques (of JKD), I supplement my overall attributes with ring training. However, by the same logic, isn't it then justified when some Chinese martial artists do not feel the need to supplement their training with a venue they deem limiting since they are already training something street efficient? Just a thought.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[straightblast5]

truewrestler,

"by the way, what is your sparring like? I know many schools spar differently. How do you spar?"

I suspect that we approach sparring similarly to those who train to be combat proficient. We approach sparring with progressively increasing pressure while isolating specifics to drill the skills, techniques, and concepts unique to our curriculum.

The main sporting events that we place our students in are kickboxing and Sanshou. When our students train for these events, we isolate specific skills to be honed while sparring full contact under the rules of the games that we are training to participate.

Hope this quenches some of your curiosity.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[reemul]

I don't need to play with dead people. I have, as I stated earlier, come very close to crushing the wind pipe of my opponent. The only thing stoping me was my unwillingness to do so. Regardless my grip was enough for him to yield. That and the lack of air. You need to come down off your "my windpipe is made of steel" trip and get a reality check.

[Braden]

Reemul, to clarify -

You said, 'You need to come down off your "my windpipe is made of steel" trip'

I have never said, nor implied any such thing, although people have put the words in my mouth. I have however, explicitly said that throat strikes are potentially lethal - so much so in fact that I personally in training and the entire species in general by instinct tries to guard against them. Which is actually the exact converse of what you are implying I said.

You said, 'Regardless my grip was enough for him to yield.'

In my last post in the topic, I said specifically that one of the best ways to reliably damage the front of the throat was to get around and behind the cartilgenous structure - which is exactly what can be done with gripping type attacks, as opposed to blunt strikes. So your example directly agreed with what I had said previously.

You said, 'You need to come down off your ... trip and get a reality check.'

I thought the personal attack was entirely unwarranted, and moreover, it's content rather ironic in that you suggested my reliance upon direct medical investigation was less grounded in reality than your reliance upon something which you believe you could do, but by your own admission have never done.

Now, what I HAVE said, which I assume is where you're somehow getting all of this from - is that one cannot assume that if you can punch someone in the jaw, you can just as easily punch them in the throat. One of the concerns is the difference in how the two targets are guarded and move. Another concern is the difference in anatomy; to maximize your damage to the throat requires a much different striking technique than you would employ as a basic blunt strike to the chest, stomach or face. Because of this - moreover, you cannot assume that even if you CAN strike someone in the throat the way you'd strike them in the jaw, that you still cannot assume such a strike would be a fight ender. Wrapping up these points, I have suggested that if someone is interested in taking advantage of the vital and potentially lethal area of the throat, one should invest training time in learning particular striking mechanics techniques for that unique situation.

Do you really think that is bad advice?

[reemul]

Look your outlook to practicing certain techniques is hardly revolutionary.

I would really like to get off the throat attack seeing as it really isn't my point in this debate, but I will say this. That caritilage in front of the throat is what causes swelling of the throat to swell inward if enough force impacts it. That is why cops can't use choke holds anymore, and believe it or not some of us can strike just as forceful. Now you claim your training protects your neck yet, as I understand it that is a prime target for grapplers.

There are many other KF techniques that are just as lethal. My argument on this thread is simply MMA IMO are not the ultimate testing grounds for what I do. I also believe that fighting for a crowd is more about ego than personal development and improvement.

[scotty1]

What is Kung Fu based on (techniques) if not kicking and punching? Surely these are the most numerous and common techniques across most styles?

[Braden]

Reemul - I never claimed my outlook was anything other than that of a pure beginner trying his best to use common sense.

Scotty - What about grappling, for instance?

[scotty1]

What about grappling?

Most styles of KF are mostly stand up, right? Otherwise why do a lot of board members cross train grappling?

So (unless that premise is flawed :) ) KF is mostly based around stand up, so I still say that KF is based (on average) around kicks and punches.

I don't see what grappling has got to do with it.

[Braden]

Grappling is not the same as groundfighting. You can grapple standing and you can strike on the ground.

[scotty1]

Look, I really didn't want to get into this as it's way OT, BUT, seeing as you disregarded my entire post based around the fact that you don't agree with my premise, I feel obliged to defend that premise. It's also a bit anoying, MP, that you probably haven't read it either.

OK, you're right about grappling not being solely groundwork. My bad. But how much standup grappling is there in Kung Fu as opposed to striking from punching/kicking range?

My point is, nit-picking aside (I didn't say KF was ALL kicking and punching) most of the techniques used by the average Kung Fu stylist are kicks and punches. I cannot see how you can possibly disagree with that. If you watched 100 sparring matches at 1000 different clubs, added up all the techs, the majority, I feel fairly sure, would be various kinds of kicks or punches.

KF is a striking art. The majority of strikes are kicks and punches.

Now tell me KF is not based around punching and kicking.

[jon]

scotty1
"Now tell me KF is not based around punching and kicking."

Im partly just being a bit of a smarta$$ but...
No its certainly not...
Kung Fu is based around doing the maximum damage in the shortest possible time. Kicking and punching are mearly tools, thats kind of like saying to a carpenter that his job is simply using a saw and hammer. He will be quick to point out that its in the WAY he uses his tools that gives him his income.
I dont want to get back into this thread as its started to hurt my brain but i thought i might point this out.
The other thing is that in reality kung fu uses all parts of the body and is in NO way restricted to punching and kicking, infact thats very low level stuff. The art is about systematicaly taking an opponent appart as quickly as possible with as little risk to the defender as possible. Trading blows is simply playing.
Also yes there is a LOT of standing grapling in Kung Fu but much of it involves finger and wrist breaks, which again are not the best for use in competion as many people wear gloves.
If your wondering what kung fu does use for self defence...
From my limited experience...
many strikes involving all parts of the body including the fists, palms, elbows,forearms, head, fingertips, knees, shins, sholders, hips and just about anything else.
Jointlocks and takedowns though usualy standing there are some exceptions.
Skeletal manipulation involving litteraly breaking people, whether its the spine an arm or the neck.
Presure point striking and soft area striking[like groin, neck and inside of elbow]
Many of these skills are easily transfered to a ring, many however are not. Not all of us want to abandon what we have learnt and what has gone before us to adapt for sport.

[scotty1]

"Kicking and punching are mearly tools"

Yes, and they are the tools the majority of KF stylists use the majority of the time, IMO.

"thats kind of like saying to a carpenter that his job is simply using a saw and hammer. He will be quick to point out that its in the WAY he uses his tools that gives him his income."

Yes, but he would still admit that his income is based around the use of the saw and the hammer. He would not say that his job was based around the use of the screwdriver, although he does use that tool a lot. The saw and the hammer are his mainstay tools.

"NO way restricted to punching and kicking, infact thats very low level stuff."

I agree, at no point did I say it was restricted to punching and kicking, in fact I said the complete opposite. And isn't the basis, the core, of an art its basics, ie. its low level stuff? It follows that any art is 'based' around the 'basics'.

I mean, christ, the only reason I said that KF was based around punching and kicking was to illustrate the argument that MMA rules do not restrict KF stylists in the use of their core techniques. That is all. I did not want to get into an argument about what constitutes the core concepts of Kung Fu. I believe I am right (tell me if I'm not) in saying that that MMA rules (at least in Nevada) prohibit the use of elbows. And yet Muay Thai has done well as the stand up art of choice for these events, despite having one of its main techs taken away.

How confident would you feel about defending yourself using only kicks and punches? Fairly confident I'm sure.

And I will still argue with anybody who says kicking and punching are not the bread and butter of Kung Fu. They are the bread and butter of any striking art.

[jon]

I like your tone and your points are very valid.
Still i have to disagree with you on some things, the carpenter analogy is just that and wont really do for debate so lets get back to the case in point.
Yes Kung Fu has loads of punches and strikes but it really is only a small part of the curriculum, the real skill is in learning to apply force and physics. This is the main difference between sports ma and traditional arts in my experience. Sport arts spend much more effort on perfecting things which can be used in the ring hence there fighting favors those aspects. Traditional arts concentrate on 'finishing' the threat as quickly as possible. Hence in traditional arts more time is spent on things like human structure, use of surroundings, weapons and of course good old fashioned dealing in pain, albiet in a very brutal way.
They also spend more time focusing on health and morals.
Due to this focus they have less time to spend on things like ring training.
It takes a long time to learn how to do these things well let alone be sure a student is ready for the 'nasty' stuff. This is where moral and ethical issues come into play. Would you teach a student how to kill if you knew they were fighting reguarly for sport? Same with if a teacher focuses on sport they will proberly lose the more deadly aspects as they take longer to train and are more difficault to apply. Let alone being useless for the styles new focus.
I have found in my past experience that people who fight in the ring a lot have adapted there art to favor this aspect. If they dont they tend to lose, its hard to play someone elses game when your not used to the rules.
Ive also seen someone try and use boxing and kickboxing on the street and get compleatly obliterated. People on the street fight really dirty, they happily pull clothing over your head use bottles or often simply use weapons. Dealing with such people requires you to have excerlent skills in dealing with the unknown and preasure and of course fast effiecent self defence, you may only get one chance at a strike... Unfortunatly these skills cant be learnt easily and certainly not in a ring with a referee and a crowd where there are rounds and scores.
Yes Kung Fu can go in mma competions, but i have a hard time thinking how they would use there traditional movements within the given restrictions like gloves. They certainly wont do well untill they train reguarly in ringfighting and change there focus at which point they will no longer be 'real' kung fu people and we are back to square one again.
Hope that explained just a little.. if not im sure you will tell me so anyway:p

[scotty1]

But that actually made a lot of sense. And is a good answer to MerryPrankster's original question.

I would continue to defend my original premise, but I think thats kind of a waste of time, as we are straying from the point. I think the question MerryPrankster asked has been answered by a few different people, and you about three times Jon. But seeing as he's been turned off the thread by the people who misunderstood him and thought he was trolling, I think this thread should probably die an honourable death. I for one, having added what I can, can't be arsed anymore.

And I think the original question was a fair one.

Oh yeah, what happened with the guy who tried to use kickboxing on the street? Was he just thinking on trading blows with a guy, and the guy used something nasty?

[jon]

"I think this thread should probably die an honourable death. I for one, having added what I can, can't be arsed anymore"

I couldnt agree with you more on that! I think as usual ive overstated myself and gotten pretty worked up might be time to let sleeping dogs lie. I have a nasty habbit of taking things to personaly, when it comes down to it we all do what we do becouse we enjoy it and its right for us individualy.
Still i had to add this quote from Budokan on 'hello everyone' thread its just to true and fits sooooooo well here.

"Dead Horses--Isn't when they twitch from repetitive blows a sign that they *might* get up?"

teehe im still laughing about this one.

[scotty1]

I know what you mean. I get too far into arguments which have about this "." much relevance to anything of importance.

But what happened with the kickboxer on the street?

[jon]

The guy was a kickboxer and boxer and had quite a bit of ring experience under his belt. He challenged another guy who was quite a well known streetfighter over some stupid argument as to the effectivness of training in ANY formal fighting art.
They met [i was there] near a park and the ground was covered in gravel.
The streetfighter ran strait in and grabbed the boxer immediatly kneeing him hard accross the stomach as he pulled him in. As soon as the guy bent down from the blow the streetfighter reached over pulled the guys shirt over his head and began to rain uppercuts and elbows in on the now blind boxer. The boxer lost his footage pretty quickly on the lose gravel and was knocked down. The streetfighter actualy let him go after that as the boxer was basicaly toast. This was also an arranged fight not simply a spur of the moment one.
That fight taught me several things not least of which was be VERY aware of your surroundings and what could happen. I never expected the shirt thing and im sure the boxer never expected it either. It also showed me that people are ruthless on the street and dont care for sportsman ship or morals they simply try and take you appart as quickly as possible its human instinct.

I also once witnessed another fight where a boxer attempted to use the boxing cover[both fists infront of face with the forearms together] on an opponent blitzing him with rapid punches. The guy simply grabbed the gaurd with one arm ripped it down and planted him with the other fist. Thats not legal in boxing [to my knowledge] and not really plausable in a ring, you cant grab anything well in boxing gloves so this guy had never thought it was even a possibility.

[scotty1]

Cheers Jon.

It's been a good debating day. And a learning experience.

[truewrestler]

ummm....i've seen people moving the blocking hand...common...you don't have to grab....just move enough to strike

good story though, just goes to show ya

[Merryprankster]

To those of you that answered the original premise: Thank you. I appreciate it. I went back and read the posts at least, from everybody :) You certainly all deserve that.

No paul, I didn't want to hear "Kung Fu sucks!" (but you said it, not me) ;)

Yuan, Yeah, I think I made a mistake when I formulated the question. There's just as much skill in doing that as there is answering questions. Oops.

And just for the record, I find many of the fights to be boring as all get out too.

Regards all, James

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Jon,

The pulled up shirt or coat is quite common in the Uk and has been for 25 plus years to my knowledge. Its a favourite way to 'do' someone if there are two or more attackers (usually muggers). Doesn't feature much in many forms though...;)

What it does show is the importance of reality training - and as in your case - learning from reality - that is all that is needed to move on.

Blindness comes in many 'forms' - the metaphorical, and as with the shirt, the all too literal.

One problem is that a lot of martial arts don't train efficiently on information processing. Contact sensitivity or gate theory is only one aspect of this, and, a somewhat artificial one at that. By artificial, I mean second order, away from natural data and hypothesis driven information.

maybe we can develop this on teh otehr thread? It is pertinent to where that debate is going.

Cheers Friend,

Steve.

[Knifefighter]

Shooter:
Not sure if I have asked you this before, and if I have I apologize for forgetting, but which events have you fought in? Also, which fighters do you train?


straightblast5:
You said: "Conditioning to fight within limits (no matter how slight) in and of itself is considered to be inefficient in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) and many other methods."

Don't you pretty much do this every single time you practice techs or spar? How would you "condition to fight" without limits unless you were actually fighting for real?


Braden:
You said: "As an addenum, remember that there are individuals trained in kungfu that are doing very well in mixed style tournaments (eg. Tim Cartmell)"

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Tim only competes in grappling tourneys and trains in BJJ for these. I don't think I have every heard of him competing in a MMA competition.

[straightblast5]

Knifefighter,



straightblast5:
You said: "Conditioning to fight within limits (no matter how slight) in and of itself is considered to be inefficient in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) and many other methods."

Don't you pretty much do this every single time you practice techs or spar? How would you "condition to fight" without limits unless you were actually fighting for real?


Training with limits is different than training for limits. When one trains for competition, they train to accommodate factors posed by the rules that could lead one to victory.

The "limits" that is placed upon training are there for oblivious safety reasons, but training is different than competing. When training, (chi-sao, sparring, or any type of exercise that involves an attempt to execute techniques against a resisting opponent) your goals are not to dominate your opponent, but to execute movements with a set structure and concept of approach. Even when placed in a position where the execution of your principles are in poor comparison to your partner's, you must stay with parameters of your training goals if you are to improve in your chosen method. You could retaliate with wild punches and kicks that might land on your partner, but then you are moving outside the spectrum of the said principles. It is similar to a boxer working on an entry with jabs. Sure, he can throw wild punches and get into range with his sparring partner, but when matched against someone with superior boxing skills, he might not be able to do the same.

When you train for limits, you are limited. When you train within a steady progression of resistance, you can bring these skills gained into a fight with no limits.

As I have stated in my original post to answer Merry Prankster’s question, the benefits of competition is relative and of personal discretion. I choose to compete with the understanding that even if I lose, I am doing so to gain the attributes that I can bring to a real encounter. I compete for the sake of training, not vice versa (training for the sake of competition). And if I lose, it’s probably because I did not have the physical attributes to match my opponent, or I chose not to betray the principles and approaches that I would execute in a confrontation with no rules -just to win a competition (i.e. like throwing "wild punches" as in my above boxing analogy).

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[Archangel]

HAHAH fair Enough Straight blast, I still don't know what a "back buck" is ;) I have to admit though, i am a little frustrated. I've asked this question since I've came to this board and nobody has been able to give me any examples; Ah well maybe someday.

I still dont understand though why a Kung Fu fighter cant train for MMA and also be prepared for the street. Like I said earlier I do and i've never had any problem differentiating the 2. I've never thrown a punch in a wrestling tourney or tried to take someone down in a boxing fight. On the street, I knew what had to be done and I was never limited by my training. I just cant relate to this kind of thinking I guess. I NEED AN EXAMPLE ;)

Also, were you on this forum about 4 or 5 months ago when knifefighter posted the fight between John Marsh (MMA) fighter and a traditional San Soo instructor. This fight was completely NHB with biting and eye gouging allowed. The fight turned out like every other traditionalist vs MMA fight in the UFC before it, with the San Soo instructer on the ground having his elbow dislocated. I'm guessing here that if the San Soo instructor used MMA as a training tool he would have faired alot better.

[straightblast5]

Archangel,

"HAHAH fair Enough Straight blast, I still don't know what a "back buck" is I have to admit though, i am a little frustrated. I've asked this question since I've came to this board and nobody has been able to give me any examples; Ah well maybe someday."

I'm glad you understand. That's the problem with communicating with only written words. Sorry I wasn't able to give you the specifics that you were looking for, but I hope my general reasoning have shed some light on the topic (and my position).

"I still dont understand though why a Kung Fu fighter cant train for MMA and also be prepared for the street. Like I said earlier I do and i've never had any problem differentiating the 2. I've never thrown a punch in a wrestling tourney or tried to take someone down in a boxing fight. On the street, I knew what had to be done and I was never limited by my training. I just cant relate to this kind of thinking I guess."

I'm glad to hear that you are willing to differentiate the two. Lots of people are unable or are unwilling to distinguish between the ring and the street. That's probably why you have found success (or at least comfort) with both the pavement arena and the ring. Like I have previously stated, your regular methods probably doesn't diverge enough between street and ring application for you to reconsider participating in either. Which is good for you, but for some, the divergence is great enough for them to reconsider.

"Also, were you on this forum about 4 or 5 months ago when knifefighter posted the fight between John Marsh (MMA) fighter and a traditional San Soo instructor. This fight was completely NHB with biting and eye gouging allowed. The fight turned out like every other traditionalist vs MMA fight in the UFC before it, with the San Soo instructer on the ground having his elbow dislocated. I'm guessing here that if the San Soo instructor used MMA as a training tool he would have faired alot better."

I saw the clip of the fight. I was aware of John Marsh's history before the seeing the match, but I had no references as to the skill level the San Soo guy. From what I saw, the San Soo fighter would not have fared well against a lot of people, much less someone with the attributes and training that Marsh has. I'm guessing the San Soo guy could have fared better if he was in better shape, period. When it comes down to it, if we are to discuss MMA versus CMA (not that we are ;)) we need to look closer to the persons involved.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[Knifefighter]

A little background on the San Soo guy. In terms of strength and conditioning, he was supposed to be unparalleled, according to his students and fellow instructor. As far as his skill level, same thing, according to the same people (funny how everybody thinks their instructor is invincible- I'll bet the majority of people on this forum believe their teacher could beat Marsh). However, like many who believe that training for the ring puts too many restrictions on the ability to develop true self-defense techniques, he had never had the chance to try out his arsenal for real on a big, tough, skilled opponent. His introduction into what happens when a person like this attacks you was a rude awakening for him.

[Braden]

KF - You're right. I believe he only competes in grappling tourneys, rather than NHB-style tourneys. To my understanding, he uses baguazhang in these the way some people use wrestling and/or judo, along with BJJ for groundwork. But if you're interested in his experiences mixing kungfu with BJJ, you're better off asking him - he's usually very open to these kinds of inquiries. He has a forum at www.shenwu.com .

[straightblast5]

Knifefighter,

"A little background on the San Soo guy. In terms of strength and conditioning, he was supposed to be unparalleled, according to his students and fellow instructor."

Not very reliable sources, as you later point out yourself.

"As far as his skill level, same thing, according to the same people (funny how everybody thinks their instructor is invincible- I'll bet the majority of people on this forum believe their teacher could beat Marsh)."

Do you think your instructor could beat Marsh? An instructor is no different than a trainer. I don't think Tyson's trainer could beat Tyson, and I don't think Tyson or his trainer would have any illusions about the topic either. I think you need to give people here a little more credit.

"However, like many who believe that training for the ring puts too many restrictions on the ability to develop true self-defense techniques, he had never had the chance to try out his arsenal for real on a big, tough, skilled opponent.

Not having the chance to use his arsenal against anyone in a one on one fight is probably due to several factors.

1. The available arsenal has not been trained well.
2. The chosen arsenal does not work.
3. He didn't have the proper attributes to execute his arsenal

Besides for choice number two, much of the argument would fall upon the attributes and training of the individual and not the methods that he chooses. If a stronger, better-trained CMA guy defeats a weaker and poorly trained MMA guy, which of the three aforementioned choices would you make as a reason for the MMA guy's failure?

"His introduction into what happens when a person like this attacks you was a rude awakening for him."

It's always a rude awaking to get beat. When it happens, it's time to get better at what you practice or practice something else. The choice is up to the individuals involved.

Knifefighter, I'm not sure what your argument is, but your post seem to be directed towards myself or those who hold a similar perspective as me. But the clip of the San Soo vs. Marsh fight is really not a valid medium for proving MMA's methods superior. My original intent on this thread was attempting to explain why some might or might not chose to enter the ring from my point of view (however limited) with experience in both 'traditional" CMA and sporting events. However, if that was not your point, then I apologize for my assumption.

Also, I am not posting with the intent to belittle the San Soo guy. I am just using my interpretation (which could or could not be accurate) of what I saw in the clip to make a point in my argument.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[Shooter]

KF, no need to apologize...you did ask before and I never replied.

The thing is, I don't know why that's so important. My competition experience in and of itself isn't going to make me a more credible Tai Chi player. It enhances my basic practice on a personal level, and thatÕs all. I don't stand on the legs of the people I train, and I donÕt drop names.

The point I was trying to make is this (just in case you care):

So what if a KF guy competes? I know more than a few KF guys who have competition experience in sub-wrestling and MMA.

Are they "identifiably good"? - WTF cares?

Is Kung Fu represented in MMA? - Yes.

Who's standard is applied in discerning an individual's Kung Fu skill? - The standard of the guy whoÕs actually in the ring.

It's an individual thing.

ThatÕs the point..sorry you missed it.

[Shooter]

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