Last word on Wing Chun

[Bak Mei]

I knew it would make you look: anyway:

I'm sick of arguing with WC guys and their answers are always the same: "Not at the higher levels."

Well then d$amn it, the higher levels are not Wing Chun then, those people have transended Wing Chun, and have become their own fighters. BEcause Wing CHun, as TAUGHT, is low level, you just can't fuk sau me! You'll get drilled through everytime.

Why not start the training then at this higher level and throw away all the nonsense.

How important are the shoulders?upper back in MA? That's the first question.

Now, using Bong Sau, that is putting the shoulder at its weakest point, raising. Try lifting full buckets off water on both sides by holding your arms out. Hard to do, the shoulder is weak this way, yet an entire art is built on it. The same with tan sau, the shoulder is weak that way too.

Breaking points, too many to count, but the waist and knee are two major ones.

WC, when done with principles that rely on shoulder power, good pushing angles, ect, is awesome. But I'd argue that that is not Wing Chun anymore.

WC guys do not hate me, this is a message board and simply my opinion.

PS I studyied WC for some time.

Ray

[qeySuS]

hmm i rarely did force vs force in wing chun, if there was bong sao i was not suppose to just stick my hand up (although we did that in some drills mostly for strengthening), it was done in a twisting motion, so you stand in front of the guy and lets say you block bong sao with your right hand then you'd twist to your left while blocking and then transist into something else (f.x. twist to my left and hence bringing the blow out of my centerline, then switch the blocking hand to backfist as i straighten my body out again).

I do agree with the fook sao, i never saw anything practical about it, especially that double fook sao they sometimes had me do, wtf was that all about.

[Bak Mei]

The thing is this, WC always presumes you'll be fighting wing chun. When you bong me, you WILL feel a force and I won't be stepping anywear. I'll drop my elbow making a wedge and you will feel all 210 pounds of me on your bong sau and it will be exploding into you. Your reaction will be to lift, and you won't, and you'll get pumpled.

I also consier the Wu sau a dead hand. I know, "It's a moment in time, its going to do something." BUT, that moment it's not doing something is the same moment that the fight is lost. In battle their is not time for anyone standing around about to do something.

Better to let the punch pass the lead hand, so you can point the punch with it, and intercept with the back hand. Not intercept with the front hand and keep the back hand there just incase. Just incase what, the other guy is good, then its too late.

[qeySuS]

hmm i never said anything about stepping, i'm just talking about twisting your hips, redirecting the force. Then again i almost never block unless i have to, and if i do it's usually double Kang Sao to block the roundhouse, i just try to get away from the punch and into a good position to counter attack.

[yuanfen]

Re. Bak Mei's comments on wing chun. I appreciate your candor.
I have no idea what wc you have seen. Wing chun has spread too fast for it's own good- so there is little quality control. So you rob yourself of understanding by generalizing whatever you have seen. Your comments show that you have no understanding of fok sao or bong sao as motions. This is a general kung fu section so I wont post elaborately here on wing chun. Best to stick to your own art- I respect the art but I dont know you.

[Bak Mei]

I can understand your point as a WC player.

Qeysus, I like the double blocking reference to the kick. I double block everything. Not so much block as create a shield that I cannuse to create contact with force, use gung fu from their.

As for my Wing CHun, my WC sifu studied with Moy Yatt in Queens and Frank Yee is where he got his Hung Gar from. I'm sure it's not the best Wing CHun out there, but better than most. There is A LOT of Wing CHun in NY, and most are doing it badly.
Maybe that's why I say what I am saying. BUT, if NY is one of the capitals for gung fu in the USA, and Moy Yatt was one of the best ....

I don't know, I just see a lot of structural problems with WC. Not that a WC guy can't mop the floor with me (I'm always willing to give it a go), I'd say it was the man, better, tougher, and not the art, because I see so many vulnerabilities; and I exploit them when I fight WC.

[qeySuS]

yeah i love the double block because it completely covers one side of my body (not countig the legs though). Like i said though i only use it as last resort because it takes too long to recover from, i can almost never counter attack if i use blocks (just takes to long the guy is out of range by that time), thats why i usually try to get out of the way of the blow and position myself better to counter attack, but that's what i try to do :P Not necesserily what i always manage to do.

[kungfu cowboy]

Polaris, how long ago did you move from Ohio?

[Bak Mei]

See, I'm coming from the other side of the perspective, I NEVER COUNTER ATTACK. I findmyself getting into a COunter the counter of the counter then.

I;m doing my own thing. I'll call it a block merely because it has elements in it that are defensive, but my twi handed shielding is offesnsive, in that it is going for your neck area, and will be turned into a chin shot, or diverted lower depending on what happens after contact. I am not countering though, just changing what I am doing. But my force is continuious. I will not stop, to block and then counter. I'm cominmg, you don't block you get hit. You block , we hit and then I find the weak spot and continue drilling in.

Polaris, I do never met Moy Yatt. He was my teacher's sifu at the time. I would argue that what you were learning was ahybrid Taiji Ba gua with the WC title thrown on it to bring in students -- ala Bruce Lee. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

What I do know is I don't concern myself with teacher politics. I have my Master, master CHan Bong, and that's all I need. There was pre-training with him, and now there is now.

I'll say this. Everyone in the world aprears to be doing Wing Chun at a high level, everyone is doing right. Why aren't they beating anybody worth a **** then out here in NYC. AN old training partner of mine is considered a God in the freemason lodge, he's a WC guy. If that guy is God, my God, WC is in trouble.

[yuanfen]

Bak mei: i repeat: you dont understand wing chun. The fact that you mention wu sao as a static move continues to show your ignorance. Why not talk about your Bak mei. You can comment on what you may have seen- doesnt mean that you know much about the art.
New york area and even the east coast is not the center of the world for lots of folks-including me- as far as kung fu is concerned. Lots of good masters settled elsewhere. As classic martial courtesy- I wont comment on Moy yat wing chun or William Cheung or Leung Ting.
But you obviously dont understand wu, bong fuk...things that you have mentioned.

[red5angel]

Bak Mei, I have to agree with Yuanfen here, I am a fairly new student to WC and still see many of the things you are not, as well as understanding that WC is about STRUCTURE, and developement of power through that. The should is involved so much as it lines up with the rest of the structure of your body to deliver your power.
I think the problem is that you seem to not have enough of a base in WC. Alot of people make the mistake of assuming that just because something doesnt seem right to them it must not be right. Thats how MAs get watered down and weak, becasue people dont want to listen to the leassons that are decades and sometimes a few centuries old, and well tested. Fighting has always been fighting, doesnt matter where you come from or where you grew up, the fact is that WC has been tested over and over and over again, and much like thet other arts out there, it is effective.

[hunt1]

The effectiveness of
Wing Chun as a fighting art was clearly established in Hong Kong in the 1950s.Wing Chun was an obscure style and went on to become very popular in Hong Kong due to the success of Wing Chun fighters in challenge matches.WC didnt win all of them but did win the majority.These fights are well documented in the newspapers of that era.Wing chun never would have grown so popular if it didnt have a real reputaion for effective fighting.This reputation was made against other styles of kung fu in Hong Kong.


The problem today is that most of Yip Mans students regard what they learned as a secret and do not teach the real stuff to all their students.Many were not even taught the best WC by Yip Man.It is clear from your posts that you were not taught the proper WC bong sau and if this is the bong sau Moy Yat taught to your Sifu then this is proof of my statement above.Size and success of a school is not evidence of the quality of the schools kung fu.

[Bak Mei]

With all do respect, you guys make me laugh.

"I've only been studying Wing Chun for a short time..."

I've been studying since I was 4 years old. I'm 24. My current master was a student of Yip Man, he'll be the first in line to **** on WC. I fight Wing Chun about once a week. Three times on a good week.

I fight some of the local commercial players. I also fight a few guys in Chinatown who are much more, a, better connected.

I would also say with confidence that I am not at the center of the MA world, but pretty **** close, especially in the context of the USA.

Hey, we disagree. But do not question my understanding of something that you believe your teacher tells you. Go out and test it. Test it against people who are not Wing Chun. Go find Hsing-I or Ba Gua, go find a heavy weight boxer, a hard hitter. Go Fuk Sau a Mike Tyson cross, and get your a$$ knocked down, because that's what will happen.

I am first and foremost a fighter. I have gone as far with Wing Chun as I needed to go. It is not an art that requires 10 years. Like I said, I studied MA my entire life. I can move, I need to get a styles flavor. Those that taste sweet (work) I stay around and savor.

Again, maybe I;m wrong. Maybe you guys should send out some of you masters from Arizona to NYC chinatown, because we need your help. No ones bong sau out here is keeping me from snapping their head back.

I didn;t want this to turn into a WC debate. WC can be good, it just needs to be fixed. To much energy coming from the outside in or the inside out. Too much side to side, not enough in. The one IN, the Biel, is actually an inferior angle, there are better ways but I wouldn't share them with you, your mindset is exactly the one I refer too.

Keep training your WC. Maybe I'll see you out in the no hold bar events ina few years (yea, right).

[Bak Mei]

I am insulted to have someone start a statement with, "I've only been training a short while but..."

I am a MA, and in this context I am your senior. You're going to tell me. What, did you pick up a copy of inside kung fu talking baout the "deadly footwork of Wing Chun" or "the secret of Wing CHun ground fighting" walk into the local kwoon and now you know everything. I've been training hard for a long time. Please give me some evidence of your remarks.

What do you like about Wing Chun, what do you find affective. You guys are the pros. I already told you I think you have two major breaking points, your waist (you lean back when under fire) and your knees ( a **** poor pushing angle your art has).

I don't know, right, so tell me. Tell me how you are going to prevent me from snapping your arm when you bong sau me. Tell me all the dangerous things you are going to do with your wu sua. I don't know the art? Seems like I know more than at least one of you, probbaly both.

I tell you this: I punch, you pac. The same hand continues in and pins your wu. You go to fight, my other hand grabs the elbow of your wu and I flip and break your wu arm. Don't think it can happen? I'll send photos.

[red5angel]

You can freak out about being told something from someone of lesser experience than you that you are wrong but that doesnt make you right.
24 years of experience isnt worth a lick unless you actually Learn something. It s a lot of big talking ubt at 24 you still have a long way to go.
And thank you for helping me to make my point, I havent been doing it for long but I do see the applications that you have apparently missed in your 20 years experience. Whgat advice would I give you? Try harder maybe? Pay attention in class, stop talking so much and listen instead of assuming.
WC doesnt lean back, a bad practitioner leans back. and the knees are bent oin the fighting stance, increasing thier strength and your root.
Flipping in a fight that close to me? Well, send me the video, no choreography, just you doing this amazing feat.
You are maixed martial artist and that will always be your weakness, looking for the right answers elsewhere and not taking the time to work with the jewels you have.
IU see a lot of opinion from someone who is too interested in his own thoughts to see what is really going on. Maybe the WC "players" you came across were taught by the same class of sifu you were taught by, in that case, stop learning WC from who you are learning it from because it sounds like a waste of time.
And dont hand me any crap about your 24 years of freaking experience, nothing offends me more then some big talkmer on the internet who knows it all. At 24 years old you have a lot of growing up to do and you assessment of WC and its ability is a fine example of the growing you have to do, take a couple fo classes and then call yourself an expert.......

[Bak Mei]

YOU have revealed your level.

Try harder :) :rolleyes:

Yea: "It didn't work sifu."

"Try harder!"

"Sifu, he was too fast."

"Hit faster!."

"Sifu, he was too strong."

"Hit harder!"

My friend, you still have a Looooooooooooong way to go. You still have not realised that it can't be about being faster or harder, because you will not be the fastest or hardest. I am hard. I broke my first board on, let me see, its in my office, my father made it into a display, hold on -- 4/28/82. I was born in 5/2/74.

Broke my frist brick 2 years later. I am hard.

But now, at 27, I am also soft as water. I'll come at you like a bull on crack (that is my intention, backed by my physical make up 5'11 210lbs) but when we meat I will mold right through and around you and break you -- of that I am sure.

Try harder! Like I said, you make me laugh. Don;t assume everyone is like yourself or training mates. Some of us have been at this a long time, and in real situations.

[shaolinboxer]

strength is often the greatest weakness

[kungfu cowboy]

I don't think he meant doing a front flip,lol!!:) But flipping the elbow over to break it!

[red5angel]

Are there two Bak Meis? Whicch one is 27 and which one is 24?
I'm 5'11, and 209 lbs, no joke, and my wrestling captain buddy who has been wrestling fo roughly 18 years and is larger then I by about 20 lbs has been taken down by me on numerous occasions. So it would seem experience does nto always win you the fight.
Besides, I tend not to ascribe a whole lot of credentials to someone who talks a whole lot about themselves and what they can do. Often times the talk leads to alck of something else.....

"Don;t assume everyone is like yourself or training mates"

I was talking to and about you, none of my training mates shoots thier mouth off so consistantly about themselves and most of them posess the humility to know that no matter how long they have been training, they have a long way to go.

[Spark]

Dude, you need to chill out.

So far as ripping on the 'beginner'. All they said was they'd only been training in WC for a short time - there was no mention that they may have trained in something else for a substantial period of time.

Also I think I not only speak for myself, as well as other, that I wouldn't pass off the comments of a beginner so lightly. I know many martial artists who have trained half as long as their seniors and are far more skilled and proficient. Maybe you are better, maybe you can pummel them, but it sounds like you just blew them off the second they said they hadn't trained long and i'm sure they had some valid points.

Take that into consideration.

Later. :)

[Bak Mei]

Not true, I blew them off when they said I am wrong, that they are right, haven't been training long, and offer no support for WHY they are right.

As for Bak Mei, it is me, I'm 27, been training since I was 4, so somewhere along the line someone misinterpreted my age for how long I have been training, but had "fuzzy math" and came up with 24 instead of 23.

Believe me, I brought up my exprience (no ranks in what I study, you know what you know and you're ranked by who you can and can not beat) to establish some credentials to why I say what I say.

I don't like all this talk and got drawn into it and that is by fault. I can admit when I am wrong. I'd much rather be face to face and say, "OK, come attack me and I'll show you." Believe me, and I mean this with my heart, I'd much rather fight this guy, because this is the contects in which I like to fight, to prove a martial point. Talk is cheep.

But, if someone came to my face, insulted my experince and is going to tell me I'm wrong, well then prove yourself right. Let's go, no time like the present. This is what I hate about message boards and why I take long leaves.

We can;t fight over the board. So let's exchange ideas. "You don't understand" isn't sharing anything. That already is judging ME. Is it that I don't understand, or that I understand it better than you, been there, done that, completed, and have moved on. Is it that I understand it to be WAAAAAy inferior to other things which I have learned and continued to learn. I mean, the Wing CHun pole, how does that have ANY reputation at all -- it is horse $hit! And believe me, I learned the pole from the best and that I can assure you.

Robert Chu, I am sure he holds some water to you as a Wing Chun gu. Yes. He whent through my sifu to get an itro to the "Pole King" in Chinatown to learn his pole. Not Wing Chun, but this other method. My master, Chan Bong, is the sole inheritor of this system. He would not teach Tobert Chu everything. WHY? Because he knew he would claim it to be WC and we can't have that.

What I am saying is the truth, 100% so.

So, I will chill out. This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. In surfing we use a term: when he see guys who obviously just baught their first brand new boards, and come with a cooler and the zink and the neon shorts and put the wax on the wrong side and talk about the barrels they were catching when it was visibly flat from sure and you can just :rolleyes: at their comments because you saw them slipping off their boards because the wax was on the wrong side: ITS CALLED A KOOK, and I believe that is who I have been carrying on a conversation with this afternoon.

No respect. Not willing to perhaps learn something, just keep paying the tutition, believe that the NUN can do it :rolleyes: so so can you, and rejoice in your ignorance. Wing Chun rules the world. Doesn;t matter that it was a throw together of a few systems to teach people how to fight quicly to rebel, doesn't matter that it is not a complete system in and of itself, CERTAINLY not internal as much as you claim it to be and not worth teaching to anyone over 15, go ahead and revel in it.

Happy New Year:p

[Bak Mei]

AND THAT'S MY LAST WORD ON WING CHUN.

Sorry guys, its the internet so what else can I do, can't snap backa head and take out the legs so, I'll be an internet baby -- wa, wa, wa

[shaolinboxer]

*snore*

[norther practitioner]

Word Shaolinboxer.

Bak Mei, dude you really don't get it do you. Am I judging you, yes, all people judge. It is those who percieve the most that can judge the best... So that being said I am sure that all systems have flaws. A lot of you have to remeber that martial arts is one of two things to people.... either an excersise, or a way of life. Knowing a martial art should be a foundation to build upon. I try to use things that I learn from all instances to overcome adversity. You see, there are an infinite way of doing things, and people all have there own quirks. Same with styles and systems and methods and drills, etc. Please realize that all systems have there benefits, and it is good to know what they are, and how to use them. Maybe, just maybe, this is all opinion based (god haven't heard this one yet). So build off of your foundation of critisism, doubt, and ingnorance. I am sure you can get a really big house built, I just don't want to be around when doors begin to slam, 'cause your whole @#$t is going to come tumbling down. WC has some very valuable lessons within it, but it is within you to learn them.
You need to chill, meditate, and just realize that you are not the almighty, alknowing. And I have only been training a short while, ****, I know people who say that and have been doing it for 10 years.

[Bak Mei]

You still have not answered any of the question sof why your art has merit. Shoalin Boxer, go to sleep or get off the board -- this does not involve you.

I can dial my phone with my toes, that's a method. Or I can just use my finger. I'm telling you you are using your toes, you'll never out dial me. Hey, I;m the first to say you can be a good fighter after a year. I've never said that. Being a good fighter can happen in a few months if you are training right, not being strung out, but MA is a lifetime pursuit. I am a martial artits.

So pleae, tell me your theories, your pole technique and how it is suprior and for God's sake WHY! Why fuk sau, even though it causes no damafge and actually brings me in. Yea, it will work on drunk joe at the bar, but you are goiing to ride me in? OK, you are asking for trouble there. O, your tan sau is going to keep menout, OK, could it be any more structuraly week? Your foundation is being built on sand.

[shaolinboxer]

There are many kinds of martial artists.

Bak Mei, you certainly seem to capture the essence of one of them.

[yuanfen]

Hi Bak Mei: Despite your chest pounding on your achievements
you still havent shown that you understand the principles of the fok, bong and tan which you mentioned or wing chun for that matter. It is ok for folks including yourself to feel that whatever you are doing is first rate.
i wouldnt presume to comment on bak mei or hisng i on the basis of what I have seen.
I am glad previous comments make you laugh- laughing is good for your health.
Again I have no idea about what you have seen and on the basis of your descriptions you exposure to wing chun is likely to be seriously flawed.
But sending people to NY?
Nah-IMO wing chun isnt a missionary enterprise. Why dont we discuss some substance instead of silly slams. We have a chance to make this list better than rec.ma.

[yuanfen]

Bak mei sez: (creating a straw man)
I already told you I think you have two major breaking points, your waist (you lean back when under fire) and your knees ( a **** poor pushing angle your art has).

I don't know, right, so tell me
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I will tell you on the first item- I dont lean back.
Enough. Guess the implications of the second from the first.
And, I dont beat my drums. My comments were in response to your overgeneralization about an art.

[fa_jing]

You are so full of sh!t it's not even funny. Wing Chun is not structurally weak. Only if it is mis-applied. I don't know WTF you learned in your WC class. Probably one of those poser classes, yeah most WC kwoons are like that. No real contact. Yet, on another thread you seem to claim that it's okay to integrate other training methods or techniques into your style. But your double standard is saying that if a WC player does this, its not WC anymore. There are some big-time bullsh!tters out there in the WC world, who try to play this weaker beats stronger crap and fight like a women sh!t, you don't need to spar, chi sao gives you all the tools you need to win a fight, yeah that's sh!t. That's probably where you are basing your attitude. I have a completely different philosophy. I'm a WC player if I do any WC drills, period. If I practice WC stance turns with a vertical fist, then do bag work influenced by both WC and boxing, then it comes to a fight or contest and I do a move I learned from watching the 3 stooges, I'll still say WC helped my shoulder turn so I punched him just a little harder. And I'll call myself a WC man and a boxer. Wing Chun bad for pushing? Yes, not part of the system I am learning. You probably want to move into a bow stance for that. Wing Chun is a simplified system of Kung Fu, no one's disputing that. However, you have to admit there's a level of inovation involved in its simplicity. Does it have the most effective techniques? Not all of them, just some. Enough to form a self-contained system that's pretty effective. Is there plenty there to learn for 20 years? Depends on what you want out of it. Some people want to train the same 3 techniques for 20 years, feel it will make them more effective and prevent confusion when it comes down to the real deal. Personally, I'll never stop training WC, but I do take it upon myself to learn tactics and techniques from outside what most think of as the system. So does my teacher. If it helps us, we use it. But you know what? Wing Chun is just a logical extension of natural fighting. And I'd wager to say so are most MA's. I would love to study other systems, especially internal MA's. I may end up spending more instruction time outside of WC than within it. But to me, there is no point where it stops being WC and starts to become something else. Studying multiple styles or training methods (same thing!!!) is cumulative, not exclusionary. You know what? You're still a karate man, because even though your mechanics are different now that time you spent in Karate shouting and breaking things is gonna help you have that little extra bit of force at the end of your punch. Criticizing WC movements is like criticizing Karate. Come on, it's a punch! It's a kick! It's an outward block! It's a rising block! You can't criticize these things. It's not like it's picking your nose or playing the piano, these have little martial value. Or trying to execute some technique with an impossible degree of difficulty. What you choose to emphasize is up to you, but it is impossible to say that any martial technique is completely useless, always and forever. You may not like the high bon sao, for instance. This is .1% of the WC system, and if nothing else loosens your shoulder, which is a prelude to training the downward elbow, so there you go, it's effective. You may like some other system better, so what? What do we care? WC has it's area that it trains, it's pretty much elbow-on the centerline kung fu, with a few notable exceptions that support this philosophy. No one is going to tell you that it's good for clawing or wrestling, or holding you arms low or keeping your elbows out. Some of the techniques that you mentioned are found in other styles, that pak sao, the tan sao, the wu sao, so I think you are way off base in criticizing these techiniques. I don't understand where you are coming from with the criticism, if it is jealousy over the popularity, or disgust at the preponderance of McWingChun, this I can understand. But your criticism of the techniques of the system make you come off as uneducated. These techniques were battle tested, most notably by people such as Dr. Leung Jan and the Red Junk fighters. It may not be the most complete martial art, yet it is completely useful to learn for practicioners of almost any style of fighting. Why? Because parts of it are very simple and demonstrate basic fighting concepts. That's why the master of our school had his Praying Mantis students train WC once a week. It's not the best system out there, it's just a good one that has been very useful to some people. It is good training but you have to find the right instructor, hopefully someone not overly influenced by a personalized flavor of WC that Yip Man designed in Hong Kong for weaker body types. I read that Yip Man in his mainland days used to spar full force using body armor they made by stuffing clothes with straw, this is what I'm talking about. Now we have some instructors saying you don't need to spar.
Gotta go.
-FJ

[OdderMensch]

I tell you this: I punch, you pac. The same hand continues in and pins your wu. You go to fight, my other hand grabs the elbow of your wu and I flip and break your wu arm. Don't think it can happen? I'll send photos.

if the pac "worked" you should not be able to grab my wu sau hand, so lets assume my pac failed. You pin my wu sau, with the same hand i failed to pac freeing that failed pac and allowing it to hit you in the face. define "flip"

I like you Bak Mei, you are not a troll, but you seem to have something against WC. I'd like to see any photos you might send me, my e-mail is in my profile. You're in NY right? I'm out in Texas but hope to get out some this year, I'd love to meet you.

[Bak Mei]

Awesome, yea I didn't describe that so well.

I am confident that no WC guy can stop my attack with a pac. Let me explain this further. As soon as contact is made, and lets assume that you are not kook and your force is coming more toward me then side to side like a winshield wiper (we all know the window gets wet still) I'll change chape, creare the bridge and then back it up with my left (left palm on the inside of right forearm and blow past the pac sau (two against one with me having better leverage because I am not extended, my attacks keep my arm in the beet chugging shape, strong leverage).

Now I'm plowing, you, or most WC, reaction is to try and fight it back with force, it won;t happen, but I fight everyone as if they are bigger than me so I being inside of you keep this shape and raise it, including you pac sau; the left hand which is pushing the right forearm acts as a natural shield, and I continue to drive the right towards your face, like a wedge thorugh your pac.

Instinctively the wu sau get's involved, at that point your door is wide open, both your hands to stop the incoming blow that passed through the pac sau, I disengage the left palm from the forarm (its not needed anymore, the door is open and I don;t need its protection anymore because my right hand, let;'s say lap daued your wu sau now that its all the way in (this is a set up), the left palm get's your wu sau arm's elbow and I flip it inward, over your left pac (I through a right).

I can just continue my momentum and walk you into a wall, car, firehydren at this point, or Fa jin and snap.

Because I attack with both arms connected, I have a shield. If you pac, I'm under but can raise, my left forearm back sup my forarem and the two as as a shield, you try to get off a shot prematurely without controling me you open even further, the left disengages, gets you at you shoudler, the base, stopping the right (maybe a biel?) Now I'm inside completely, with momentum ...

This is my experience -- so far. My problem with Wing Chun is its practitioners. I'd like for them to say, you know what, this is abreat art, learn a lot of the core principles, very quickly too. But it's not internal. The mere applying of that bothers me. There is no internal work in Wing Chun. That is utterly rediculous. I see books claiming Sil Lum Tao is internal.

Find, if you want to call that internal -- fine. I'm sure it affects the chi in a positive manner in some way, so can walking, but that is not the internal I'm talking about.

I find Wing Chun players to be snobbish, and for no good reason. They believe their arts is the be all to gung fu, when it fact, it is merely a village art made popular because most of China's imigrants came from the south since they were in most need of getting out at the time.

That's Wing Chun. I'd even take aim at Yip Man's lineage, for the man who taught him was suspect of having a true lineage but what's the point. To WC players he can fly and shoot chi out his rear with his internal prowless.

Too me, its the same as Shotokan karate claiming to be on the same internal level as Taiji or Ba Gua, no way, to claim such is paposteruous. Maybe aikido could claim such, and that's simply because its founder studied Ba Gua, but even there I'm sure, as a Japanese man, he was not given the inside goods ... and it shows. Good style though, I respect aikido. WC too, I respect all my martial brothers, but let's be honest...

And soemone telling me WC is internal, well, that's not honest. C

[Polaris]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Polaris, how long ago did you move from Ohio?

April.

[OdderMensch]

Now I'm plowing, you, or most WC, reaction is to try and fight it back with force,

on of WC first lessons should be never fight force with force, you always lose that game eventualy. A better reaction might be to "sink" the incomeing brige with a "ding jarn" motion, but its hard to tell over the net. or if i can sense the raise maybe "tok sau" and go under you?

As for WC "internal" aspect, well im a bit shakey on the whole internal/external thing. Ever read "the sword polishers record"? the auther goes over it in one article. that might be a good starting point for a new thread.

ps how's that dead horse?

[yuanfen]

I dont know why some folks claiming to be wing chunners even bother responding to Bak mei's continuing demonstation of his ignorance about wing chun. he is just tooting his own horn rather
than trying to explain or understand the varieties of CMA in a general
kung fu list. There are punches and there are punches- wing chun does not engage ina mechanical pak block. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing for understanding as "Bak mei" name holder not the art well demonstrates... again and again-removing all doubt.

[Mokujin]

the thread ends!

Seriously, gotta side with Yuan Fen on this one. Too much testosterone and chest thumping. I find the empty kettle makes the loudest noise.

I'm a newbie period, so I can't analyze Bak's what-if this-n-that scenario, but I don't think I could knock out Mike Tyson period if he gave me one free punch! :) I defnitely need to keep training.

It takes introspection and a certain level of maturity. What if you train for 25 years and get creamed by a newbie? Does that mean the technique (wing chun, jkd, whatever) was wrong, they got lucky, or were you doing the technique wrong? Does this mean an entire system of kung fu / whatever is meaningless and inapplicable?

Peace!
:D
Mokujin

[Mutant]

I wasnt going to get into this and really don't feel like arguing on the internet but... Bak Mei demonstrates straight up that he does not understand the essence of wing chun. we don't really 'block', pak would not even be used like that, its not all about force against force, we deflect, we move, but we don;t stand there and block a strike like that. i bet you could punch thru my pak if i stood there and tried to execute it like a karate block, but thats not what its about, your missing the point and understanding of the applications. A good wing chun person would be fluid and on to something else, possibly smacking you in the head as you stand there and try to power your way through where the pak may have been for a split second. Wing chun and many cma do use internal power, not just tai chi and others that are labeled 'internal'. Its not something you pick up right away so i can understand why its confusing.
And you also grossly misunderstand the structure and physics behind wing chun, you are not even close, rambling about shoulder strength, etc. I too have studied several different styles and I still practice many element, forms, exercises from them, and i think the wing chun structure is quite amazing and beautiful in its efficiency. Stucture is almost a misnomer, because it implies that it is static, but it is not.
I'm happy that you found a sifu that you are learning so much from and i agree with some of what you have said about technology, etc, but i really think you are misunderstanding some of the styles you are critiquing...and all those years of karate doesnt qualify you as an instant expert on all these other chinese styles. most wc people i have met are not snobs, i have no idea who youve trained with or where you got that, but don't be predudiced because of it.
You seem like a 'true believer' that thinks whatever style youre currently studying is the ultimate, and then when you get your but whipped, you jump ship, bad mouth your old style and then 'see the light' in your new gig. i've met plenty of people like that and its like arguing about religion, nearly impossible to talk to.
I really don't mean to offend you, but its bad form to go trashing other styles while in the same sentance displaying that you don't have a very deep understanding of them.:rolleyes:

[S.Teebas]

Bak Mei....

Do you claim to know for certain that ALL wing chun is as you have described? ...cause thats what it sounds like.

[CanadianBadAss]

what'd u mean snap my bong sao? The bong sao doesnt just stay there waiting for u to snap it, when u punch all the bong sao comes out, deflects your punch, and continues to go forword turning into a punch and smaking u in the face.

[ATENG]

Originally posted by Bak Mei
I've been studying since I was 4 years old. I'm 24.

and you were born on 5/2/74?


why are you guys even arguing with someone who either does not know his own age or his own bday?

[Sharky]

Impressive bak mei, impressive

[CanadianBadAss]

i know, this guy is making rolls look bad.

good job

[Reima Kostaja]

When you bong me, you WILL feel a force and I won't be stepping anywear.

That is correct. Pass to the left, please.

[KenWingJitsu]

Bak mei. Go look for a good WT (wing tsun) school in New York. Ask them to spar. They will accept. then post your reasults here. I can find an address for you if you want. I bet your tune will be different.

[tnwingtsun]

"Tell me how you are going to prevent me from snapping your arm when you bong sau me."


Yawn!!


You win,I'm going to leave my bong sao out there so you can snap it.:rolleyes:

Ok,lets have a pi$$ing contest.

4/82 you broke your first board,bout that time I was jumping out of a C-130 with a full combat load.

That same year I was in a combat zone wondering who was going to start WW3,North or South Korea,hell,they both liked to trade small arms and Artillery with each other and most of the time it was on my rotation while I was amongest dem,the next year Cubian Soldiers were throwing cigars at me in a hot DZ,nice fellers,we had to turn in the AK-47s we took off their bodies but got to keep the cigars.
Even after that I knew I wasn't hard because most of my NCOs
came from what they call now as "Special Ops" groups,all of them being Nam Vets that didn't play with boards and bricks,I was a cherry boy to them then and I still am the way I see it.

2 years later you were breaking bricks,you were hard.


You scare me.

Man are you ever setting yourself up for a big fall.

[Bak Mei]

You guys are right, I am wrong. So sorry. Please forgive.

Wing Chun is the highest level of martial arts. Must be, Bruce Lee practiced it for 2 years and it was created by a nun. Its internal is amazing; Sil Lum Tao, could the internal aspects be taken to a higher realm?


Ps,

The last Wing Player to comment, I do resepct your survive for this country. I do apreciate the mindwet it must take to confront a man in a fire fight, I truly do. I've been training along time, and keeping cool in a violent situation takes a special mind set. So you have my respect in those regards.

However, you killing with a gun does not make me view your hand to hand ability any differently, if you would be defending with Wing Chun. Because on those terms, you're trying to fight off an m16 with a sling shot. You may be great with it, but you do not have the advantage because of a lack of technology in comparison. So, as good as one may be with a sling shot, a decent kid with a AK could take you out from 25 yards.

But thank you. We need soldiers.

[rogue]

"The last Wing Player to comment, I do resepct your survive for this country. I do apreciate the mindwet it must take to confront a man in a fire fight, I truly do. I've been training along time, and keeping cool in a violent situation takes a special mind set. So you have my respect in those regards."

With all due respect Bak Mei, you don't know the half of it!

[Bak Mei]

I've never been in a war so I can't. I have grown up in Neark though and have seen casulties first hand.

When I was 8 or 9 two training brothers (they were brothers) had their heads beat in with a pipe, and then, had their skulls run over by the poeple's van. I don't know why this happened. I remember my sensei telling me and then my father saying it was drugs -- the killers. The kids were my age, maybe a year older. My sensei did remark to me that those two never took their training seriously and it could have been the difference. Never said it to the clas. We were close. He's been there my entire life.

Let's see. Had three friends get shot in the head, had a gun pulled on me, been stabbed in the left bicep, had a shot gun pulled on three of my friends by some crazy guy in a van full of punks wanting to cause trouble -- had a friend get shot for his Triple Fat Goose down jacket, 2 junkies, 3 suicides, and a partridge in a pair tree.

One of the nastiest, a fight broke out and my friend beat this guy down good. He wouldn't stop, his hand to his face, his face to the cement, bounced back to meet another fist, back down to the cement. Over and over again. Had to pull my boy off. The guys was in a coma. Bad.

All this before I was 21, except for the latest suicide, which happened a month a go. An ex-soldier like yourself. Sweet kid, I don't know how he was a soldier though because he was a softy. Guess he was a good order taker.

I do respect you guys, a dirty job and someone has to do it. Me, I'm not one for taking orders and running out to a fox hole. I'm more of a general type, a planner, an organizer, a stratagist.

If anything, I'd be a sniper. I like living on the high level. If I had to be a team player, special opp all the way but already to compromised there. Can anyone say Nicaragua airport. I;m not down with following orders to an ambush.

Anyway, I guess my point was you don't have to wear the camo to have a first rate class in reality. The streets is a pretty good class room.

[Ford Prefect]

Bak Mei,

I've been following this thread, but not really commenting. You seem to be pretty sound as far as theory and concepts go. You sound like you are a good martial artist. However, please stop talking about your past like it even begins to measure up to what combat vets and especially spec op vets go through. It really just makes you look silly.

[scotty1]

I too have been following this thread without commenting.
I don't do WC so I can't comment on the technical aspects of what you're all talking about.

In fact, I've only been training for a little over a year, so excuse me while I bow to my senior (scrape).

But I'll tell you this: The fact that you come from hard streets does not make me respect your opinion any more, Bak Mai. You have put forward a scenario which you believe could not be refuted by a Wing Chunner. It has been, by two people in fact. So it seems your 'last word on WC' thread is redundant, as your premise is not true, as evidenced by at least three fellow members. You have posted a scenario detailing how you would break a WChunner, and replies have come back detailing how your description (and presumptions) are incorrect and how they would break you. Any response?

By the way, you have stated that you are first and foremost a fighter. Maybe if you eat some humble pie you might become a martial artist.

[rubthebuddha]

honestly, gentlemen, if you're mad at bak mei for touting himself for this and that, fine -- he really does need to shut up about what he's done -- but throwing your own experience out there to make your puddle of pee any bigger isn't any better.

your service is appreciated and you're dàmn right you should be proud of it and wear it like a badge. however, pointing at the badge and saying "look what i got" isn't all that impressive. you worked hard for what you have -- let that stand out on it's own merit.

[fa_jing]

I think you missed my post. You haven't responded to any of the points I made. Read it. Then tell me how you are going to criticize the pak sao which is found in many CMA styles. Tell me how you are going to execute multiple movements against the pak as I stand there striking a pose for you. You are foolish. We train followup movements when the oppenent pak's, do you think your the first person to think of a compound movement as a response? All movements have a counter, you seem to forget that the opponent is fighting back. There is no such thing as block block block, all defense and no offense. That's a good way to get hit, of course. Your only good point is that there are many WC posers out there, such as with Tai Chi. Due to the popularity of these arts, of course. Are you going to criticize Tai Chi now? Maybe say that while a Tai Chi player does his opponing movement, you'll simply walk up and sock him in his eye? You may not find anyone to play with in the average WC school but I guarantee you there are real WC fighters out there. Also, please define an internal art, if WC is not. Most WC players define the art as both internal and external. Sil lum tao trains your chi to go through your arms into the hands. If it doesn't, your just posing.
The stance shifting develops your torque power, which comes from the hips. WC is known to yeild, step outside the line of fire and come in with a new angle of attack. It can also being very external and come right down the middle.
Answers please, stop grandstanding.
-FJ

[Bak Mei]

Again I am sorry. As I said in the first post, I get into this with wing chun all the time.

As for the pac sau, if you think that will prevent someone from coming in -- great! Rely on it. I hope so. I hope Wing Chun will use it forever, I really do.

Just think about this. It may stop a jab, but not an entire man, his entire mass of over 200 pounds coming in atv you. You can try to throw 5 chain punches. My shiled will hit the first one, follow it back and jam the second one. Now you have to deal with that continued force! Step. Go ahead. I assure you your steppin gis not up to par with Ba Gua's, so that same mass is with you now and you are no longer jammed, but down.

I don;t know about TNN, or Washington, pr wherever, but Wing Chun is not viewed as the cream of the crop by far in NY, where there is Hung Gar, Mantis, Choy, Hsing-I, Ba Gua, White Crane, and on and on. It just isn't a high level art. Good, yes. But who's talking about good. I;m talking baout keepin gup with the best of them. Not that I can, but its my pursuit. And Wing Chun wasn't the answer by far.

Think real! I'm not pyunching you with my arm muscles, all of me is coming in. Do you think he can hold me back with a pac sau? I'll jamm your other arm too. You are waaaay too busy as an art. To much going on and no enough getting done. Fuk sau, pac sau, bong sau, and not a **** thing accomplished yet. Straight in, shield up, body to body, NOW WE FIGHT!

Don;t even think about that heal in toe out jam kick -- VERY structurally weak.

[fa_jing]

I repeat, WC is not structurally weak, only if you mis-apply it. To pak someone's arm who is coming in at you is not to stop that person, this is not the application. An example of a technique that does stop someone from coming in, is a punch or a kick. That's that only way I ever learned. A high pak sao to me is an emergency technique, it is more difficult than blocks with the forearm because you have such a small part of your palm that you hit the target with. A structurally better technique is a pak + punch where your upper arm assists the pak in sheilding. You need to know what a technique is for. For instance, a pak sao is pretty useless against a tight hook, pak means "slapping" hand and a slap is not going to redirect a tight hook, although it is useful against a straight, or against a punch that you have already avoided somewhat with your footwork. Pak sao is also used to pin the oppenents elbow, also to slap a guard hand out of the way when intiating an attack.
Chain punching to me is a training exercise, not a battle strategy, at least we don't train it this way. To me, it's just to improve your hand speed and give you the instinct to keep punching, not to stop after one hit.
Wing Chun does need to train more realistically than is the case in most schools.
-FJ

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I have read over this topic and find it ahem, amusing. While there is a great deal of poor Wing Chun there is also some good Wing Chun. If I read you right anyone who can make Wing Chun work is "higher level" and by your definition no longer doing Wing Chun. What a bold statement. However, it gives you an out if you happen to fight a Wing Chun guy and he wins, he must have transcended the art to the higher levels where Wing Chun is really something else. I am curious as to what art you study, is it Bak Mei? You mention Bagua but what do you really know about that system? You mention things that have happened in your life experience as though that gives credence to your words. Sorry, but there are many who have lived a much harder life, lost loved ones and had to kill in defense whether with or without weapons yet they go on and don't need to attempt to justify their opinions with trying to impress everyone with how tough they are.

I would honestly be curious as to who you have touched hands with in Wing Chun. Perhaps you need to seek out some others to see how they compare. Wing Chun is not respected in NYC, from where did you draw this conclusion? I can assure you that there are several Wing Chun Sifu in NY who have the respect of other Sifu of different styles such as Hung Gar, Bagua etc. But then again, maybe I am wrong it is after all just my opinion based on several years of experience.

If you would like to meet some real Wing Chun people then please feel free to e-mail me. Or if you ever get down to Philly let me know. This is not a challenge as I have no interest in beating anyone, or being beat by them :D However, it would provide you an opportunity to expand your knowledge of Wing Chun and see if what you have been exposed to gives a fair representation of the art. Afterwards we could all go out for tea.

Peace,

Dave

[yuanfen]

IMO hope this silly thread dribbles out. ... despite the "humor" provided by "Bak mei" who really is not a bak mei but has begun with a Chinese sifu a few months ago in e chuan etc. he has done some hsing I, he knows baqua- he does internal and he writes fighting stage plays starring himself versus himself--- if you do this i will do that. So the new Bak mei fights his own creation the old bak mei and beats him.
yawn- wouldnt make even a fourth rated godzilla script.:rolleyes:

[rubthebuddha]

sorry to say, buddy, but washington just isn't the hotbed of kung fu that everyone seems to think ;)

we just have an amazing wing tsun school up here. as far as other styles in the area and their view of wt, the best i've heard anyone say bad about our kung fu is that it "looks funny" compared to other MAs. impressive opinion, no?

i've offered to "compare" with these comedians, but i have yet to get any useful replies. :rolleyes:

[rogue]

I think I understand what BM is talking about, I've seen it sometimes with the WC people I've sparred with. I've never thought it a problem with WC just those particular people at that particular time. In a nut shell I think they were forcing the holding of their centerline and forgot about footwork and being flexible. H3ll, I do have the same thing happen to me all the time in TKD.

Bak Mei, why not talk more about your art and less about Wing Chun.


BTW, why did you move up when you're entering MMA competition time frame? Have you checked out what Sifu David Ross' contests yet?

[Bak Mei]

"a pak + punch where your upper arm assists the pak in sheilding. "

That's all I wanted to hear ... a theory, a principle. You're Wing Chun is good, I'm sure of it!:)

Sorry if I ****ed you all off, but this is all I wanted to hear. You know what, my wing chun isn't bad either. I wouldn't call it Wing Chun anymore, but if I had to I could make it look like wing chun.

[fa_jing]

Yeah Bak, I'll let it slide, since you gave me a smiley. ;) The truth is there is some hocus-pocus theory floating around that WC is better than all other styles, that would and does make me upset. These same people are the ones that claim chi sao is all you need to learn how to survive in the street. Then people like you don't take WC seriously. While, WC is very cool in my mind, a intelligent simplification and development of pre-existing kung fu styles, with useful and innovative training methods. Maybe not your most comprehensive style, at least nowadays - for instance, I am not aware of break-falling being taught as part of the curriculum, but who's to say? WC shouldn't be limited by what Yip Man taught in Hong Kong, and many WC instructors try to fill in the gaps. My claim is that it's still Wing Chun, even though we don't know the specific falling methods of the WC ancestors. Now that the discussion has moved out of the toilet, I'm going to address the issue of Wing Chun being too busy with the hands. Do you know that some WC teachers don't even teach kicking for 5 years? Talk about holding back information from your students! My Sifu has a lot of ring experience, he says the following: "Lose the flashiness. Plan to hit on the first or second technique. Hitting on the 3rd or fourth technique is only for show, or for training. Develop your most basic techniques, you've got to have these (fists) and you've got to have these (feet)"
On the structural weakness of some blocks, for instance a double block tan + bon sao leaving your side open: "You are not striking a pose." Some other fun quotes "Sparring is not an option" "Pushups are not an option" He means these are requirements. My teacher has been influenced by JKD (he is a student of Ted Wong), and has exposure to other arts, but his fighting style is based on Wing Chun. He makes Wing Chun work in a way that you won't be scratching your head thinking, "well what if I..." You would be thinking "yo, I'm glad he didn't hit me full force" And he feels perfectly free to incorporate any technique he likes into the class time - fireman's carry or horizontal fist or whatever. But we mostly train what's thought of as traditional WC. You made some points about the deficiencies of some WC practicioners but I'm telling you that it ain't all like that, not just my sifu - I'm sure Wong Sheung Long or another Wing Chun FIGHTER agreed about hitting on the first or second technique. Wong went on to do and teach Thai Boxing as well, so I don't think everyone is as hokey or close-minded as the worst you have seen.
Something else about the busy hands - sifu teaches that when your hands get tied up, you don't stand there wrestling, "the kick is automatic" That's why we have a drill where we practise all of our basic single and double blocks and block + punch combinations with a kick. When you are too close to kick, you probably need to throw the opponent, or use a shoulder strike. Wing chun kicks are very cool, basic motions that you can hardly dispute. We train 5 basic kicks.

Oh yeah, I couldn't resist having the last word...:D
-FJ

[tnwingtsun]

Proper mindset is the key Bak Mei.
Battlefield or the streets its the same,if you training is sub-standard(which you claim WC/WT to be) and you reflexes are not honed you stand a good chance of assuming room temp most-ricky-tic.

But here is the issue,you are slamming a system you never explored to its fullest,only to your fullest.
YOUR is the key word here.

You have been lucky to study under the Yi-Chuan system which is a very powerful system.
I have studied powerful hand-to-hand systems myself yet you won't find me saying that your system is no good or it won't work or hear me try to pick apart other systems concepts.


"I'm not one for taking orders"

Not even from your Sifu?


" I'm more of a general type, a planner, an organizer, a stratagist."

I beg to differ,Generals have to at least at one point(some many) get in the mud too and take orders.

" A planner, an organizer, a stratagist."

You're leaving ALOT out there.


"If anything, I'd be a sniper. I like living on the high level."

Let this quote sink in on your high level.............

"I am a sniper...
A loner...
I am not a part of the world...
But merely observe it through my crosshair...
I live by the shadows and die by the shadows...
I am always distant from everything else...
I am fearful by strength...
Invincible by distance...
Being a sniper is the worst thing to be...
Only hell can cleanse what we do."


You'de never make it through the course,based on what you've wrote you tend to grossley underestimate your opponet,in the real thing,hand to hand or on the battlefield that kind of thinking will get you killed,faster on the battlefield than on the street my friend,for your sake I hope your Sifu will teach you that.



"If I had to be a team player, special opp all the way but already to compromised there. Can anyone say Nicaragua airport. I;m not down with following orders to an ambush."


Let me clear somthing up here and now because you've got your facts wrong if I take it you're reffering to the Airport in Panama(1989,guess you were 14 at the time busting bricks)
where members of a SEAL team that were acting on bad INTEL,can anyone say, " A planner, an organizer, a stratagist."???
Because that what you wrote you'de be good at.

"I;m not down with following orders to an ambush."


Well the Navy SEALs(or SF,D-BoysRangers,LRSU,Marine Force Recon) are not in the biz of doing that either,they're the cream of the crop and there ain't many that are on their level but they lost people that night,some might take what you said as insult to injury or you're getting in way above your head.
I still consider myself a cherry boy when it comes to the Hardcore cream of the crop.
I am not "politically correct", hell...I can be very outspoken. I was schooled by some very old Non-Commissioned Officers and thats where I get it from. I may offend people, I may aggravate people and I may even annoy people but I never intend things personally. In a nutshell...I call it like I see it,my vision gets blurred at times too.


As far as me taking a walk down memory lane perhaps I did come off as rubthebudda said "however, pointing at the badge and saying "look what i got" as beating my chest,what I meant to convey to you was my own shocking wake up call and try to get across that things are not always as they seem to be,mind set and good training are just parts of the equation.
Theres always someone out there bigger,badder,meaner that has more skill willing to risk more than you unless you're the God of MA the world has yet to discover.
Sun Tzu said,know yourself and your enemy(you've put your crosshairs on WC/WT/VT) so we'll put yourself in the other slot.
Do you really want to short change yourself and say you fully understand WC/WT/VT concepts to the point that your training can defeat anyone in those systems??

Thus endith the military sermon.

There are alot of people from many systems that have the attitude that "We are the best"
You can learn alot by studying concepts and ideas,but to really understand them,you have to work out the concept yourself.
Does not sound like you gave WC/WT/VT a fair shake,but thats your loss,you have been lucky enough to study Hsing-Yi,Bagua and now you have a Special Sifu in Yi-Chaun!!

Now you've got a chance to meet and exchange ideas and concepts with Sihing73!

"However, it would provide you an opportunity to expand your knowledge of Wing Chun and see if what you have been exposed to gives a fair representation of the art. Afterwards we could all go out for tea."


I do wish you well Bak Mei in your training and life in general,your
passion for the CMA is admireable.

Instead of hearing about the shortcomings of WT/WC/VT I'd like to hear about the good side of yours.

Peace


Mors certa, hora incerta.










:)

[mun hung]

Just found this. I respect your opinion, as we all have one based on our own individual experiences. IMO - you need to see more WC before making your assessment. Maybe I can help.

I practice Wing Chun in NYC (Queens) under SiFu Allan Che Kong Lee. You are welcome to visit us at any time. We have a very different approach than the WC people you have mentioned in your posts. I would like also to visit with your school if possible.

Where do you sparr against WC practitioners in Chinatown and with who? I'd like to come down and watch - maybe participate. Depends. e-mail me.

As far as street violence in NYC is concerned...it was much worse in the eighties. (my time)

peace.

[sticky fingers]

I don't post often but I remember one particular post where you said your WC experience was 3 years. The thread was 'bong sau to all you wing chunners'.I can't find that post now it's been deleted.
So what is it? 3 years or 20years?
24 years old or 27 years old?

For your sake I hope it's 3 years, cos if you can't answer those fundamental questions you ask with all those wasted years of experience, hell, I'd be bitter and twisted myself!!!!
but I doubt you even have 3 years of real hands on experience. Books and video tapes maybe, you seem to be superficially knowledgeable but lack any understanding of basic principles.
With all those 'years' of martial art experience, haven't you even realized that there is no one foolproof technique, there is a counter to a counter to a counter. This is true not just for WC, ask any real martial artist in any art-Bjj, TKD and so on....then ask yourself. Then look at your posts and realize your utter foolishness.
ralek: kung fu sux. bjj is superior.
Bak Mei: wing chun sux. I'M superior.
sheeesh.

cop u later

[sticky fingers]

thread: let's kick a dead horse
"I myself have studied Isshin-Ryu for 14 years. I used to laught at people to bounced from a school after 2 years, and rightfully, MA is a lifetime. But I got the core of that stystem, and then moved on in life (literarly, moved, and started college). Then I did Hung Gar and WIng Chun."

then

thread: last word on wing chun
"I've been studying since I was 4 years old. I'm 24. My current master was a student of Yip Man, he'll be the first in line to **** on WC. I fight Wing Chun about once a week. Three times on a good week. " and:

"I broke my first board on, let me see, its in my office, my father made it into a display, hold on -- 4/28/82. I was born in 5/2/74. "


also
you started wing chun
a: after college
b: since you were 4

you are
a: 24
b: 27